What's coming next from the USGA and R&A...

[Shilgy]

10 minutes ago, hammersia said:

Toasters on a stick have also led to a big deterioration in the standards of amateurs with other clubs. 
Week in week out I see unbelievably bad swings at my home course, that you can get away with using the modern driver, but with a rescue or even a six iron in their hand... no chance. 
You used to have to learn the game properly.

Trust me, you would have seen the same bad swings 40 years ago.  

[ThinkingPlus]

38 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I agree the players now are more talented than ever.

 

Rory and Adam Scott actually argue that equipment advances are detracting from the skills being on display as much as they should be. 
 

 

Their opinions would carry more weight if either of them were better than average putters.  As it is it looks like sour grapes from 2 elite ball strikers that struggle to convert that ball striking advantage into lower scores and wins.  It is very similar to the whining Ben Hogan did back in the day about how putting wasn't golf and shouldn't count as much relative to score.  I always liked and respected Hogan, but that was never a good look.

[bscinstnct]

12 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Bull! Pure and simply put. Why do you think there are more players hitting 20-30+ home runs but not more players hitting 60 or more? If it was just the ball itself there should be more players at the upper end and there are not.  But there are more players at the lower end. Why are their balls in play more more commonly elevated? Why is the guy like Didi Gregorius hitting 20+ home runs three years running after the three previous years hitting 7-6-9 homers per year? All players are now being taught to elevate. 
It is also one of the major changes that baseball purists hate. The number of “no fielding” at bats has skyrocketed. That is walks, strikeouts and home runs.  It is all analytics driven just like the length explosion on tour. 

You are stuck on mechanics and tracman and it actually underlines my argument on 

 

equipment! 

 

The pro baseball players are using, compared to amateurs and even top college pros,

 

The same bat as was used in the 50s. Smallest sweet spot, heaviest weight material per volume, least trampoline effect.

 

Compared to golf pros who use enormous, forgiving, space age material engineered, toasters that the very worst amateur can use. 

[ThinkingPlus]

@bscinstnctI have been meaning to ask you this for awhile.  Who or what is Uncle Rico?

[Shilgy]

2 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

You are stuck on mechanics and tracman and it actually underlines my argument on 

 

equipment! 

 

The pro baseball players are using, compared to amateurs and even top college pros,

 

The same bat as was used in the 50s. Smallest sweet spot, heaviest weight material per volume, least trampoline effect.

 

Compared to golf pros who use enormous, forgiving, space age material engineered, toasters that the very worst amateur can use. 

For the millionth time yes! Of course the modern equipment goes farther than persimmon...which went longer than hickory....which went longer than all that came before. 
The question is what comes next?  In the baseball example we do see more players hitting the long ball because of changed swing dynamics. Sound familiar? We do have more long players in golf than before as well.  And guess what? We simply put have more really good players than ever before as well. Don’t believe me? The guy in the story below couldn’t make it even on mini tours!  And if you rolled it back they would still be longer than the players of the past-as a group that is not against any one player. So @bladehunterwill jump in and say why not then? For me it is largely because of the nightmare it would be to enforce at the club level. And handicap sandbagging would get even worse as well. You simply cannot force everyone to have smaller drivers and that would be a minor rollback anyways. So it would have to be the ball. And I am a believer that would never accomplish the desired effect either.

 

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/amateur-scores-second-58-of-golf-career

[bscinstnct]

12 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

@bscinstnctI have been meaning to ask you this for awhile.  Who or what is Uncle Rico?

 

TP! Well, I guess I just always assume that everyone has seen the movie Napoleon Dynamite...

 

Uncle Rico is a 40 something who was a High School football star, “throw a football over those mountains”, and constantly years for those “glory days” and laments what could have been. 
 

Id highly recommend you guys see the film.

 

Here is a short, hilarious, clip that explains Uncle Rico perfectly ; )

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by bscinstnct

[bscinstnct]

8 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

For the millionth time yes! Of course the modern equipment goes farther than persimmon...which went longer than hickory....which went longer than all that came before. 
The question is what comes next?  In the baseball example we do see more players hitting the long ball because of changed swing dynamics. Sound familiar? We do have more long players in golf than before as well.  And guess what? We simply put have more really good players than ever before as well. Don’t believe me? The guy in the story below couldn’t make it even on mini tours!  And if you rolled it back they would still be longer than the players of the past-as a group that is not against any one player. So @bladehunterwill jump in and say why not then? For me it is largely because of the nightmare it would be to enforce at the club level. And handicap sandbagging would get even worse as well. You simply cannot force everyone to have smaller drivers and that would be a minor rollback anyways. So it would have to be the ball. And I am a believer that would never accomplish the desired effect either.

 

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/amateur-scores-second-58-of-golf-career

 

I agree that the talent is the best and most athletic ever.

 

So, maybe it’s time to rethink them needing the longest and most forgiving technology that can be engineered. 

Lower the COR (or CT or whatever they use now). That can be done very easily.

Then, look at smaller, less forgiving (less MOI?) heads.

 

This would only be required for tour pros but the drivers would be sold to anyone who wants to play them. 
 

It’s exactly like MLB and wooden bats. Cmon, aren’t you curious to see how these guys do without a toaster on a 46” shaft?

 

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I agree that the talent is the best and most athletic ever.

 

So, maybe it’s time to rethink them needing the longest and most forgiving technology that can be engineered. 

Lower the COR (or CT or whatever they use now). That can be done very easily.

Then, look at smaller, less forgiving (less MOI?) heads.

 

This would only be required for tour pros but the drivers would be sold to anyone who wants to play them. 
 

It’s exactly like MLB and wooden bats. Cmon, aren’t you curious to see how these guys do without a toaster on a 46” shaft?

 

I can see them hit three woods a mile now. Why would a scaled back driver affect them enough to placate the rollback crowd?

[Nard_S]

19 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

The ruling bodies screwed up HARD when they got so worried about the TiSI driver.  They focused far too much on COR, and ignored MOI.  The Integra 400 showed what was possible, but they ignored that warning shot.  They could have capped size right then and there.

 

So agree.

 

59 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Rory and Adam Scott actually argue that equipment advances are detracting from the skills being on display as much as they should be. 
 

 

So agree.

 

 PGA could tweak the ball spec and set driver spec limits in such a way that dispersion widens to what was once common place in say 1995 but still allows 190 mph ball speeds. The skill set of ball striking and spin control rise once again, the big drive and big power associated with it remains but risk/ reward ratio is altered. So "small ball" golf is elevated without killing "bomb it" golf. Best of both worlds, style wise the ideal more like Tiger & less like John Daly. 

[Bad9]

6 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I can see them hit three woods a mile now. Why would a scaled back driver affect them enough to placate the rollback crowd?

Bingo. The driver so many wAnt to see is the current 3w and the long guys are still up around 300yds.

[bscinstnct]

7 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

Bingo. The driver so many wAnt to see is the current 3w and the long guys are still up around 300yds.

 

There you go. I don’t know what the people looking for a 20% rollback are thinking.

 

Id prefer to see the distance leaders back at 300 yards. Average drive say 285. But equally as importantly, less forgiveness on mishits, smaller sweet spot, greater risk of dispersion. 
 

What’s wrong with that?

[disco111]

The powers that be will not and advisedly should not do anything to the current equipment - law suits ala Karsten Ping would abound, but, yes BUT!! they do need to place a hold on any further equipment enhancing distance factors. So in reality the only way to accomplish the distance debacle currently under way is to focus upon course conditions and placement of hazards. Remember, we're talking tour and very elite Am competitions. Leave the rest of us hacks alone, we have enough dis-satisfactions with our game already. 

[Bad9]

11 minutes ago, disco111 said:

The powers that be will not and advisedly should not do anything to the current equipment - law suits ala Karsten Ping would abound, but, yes BUT!! they do need to place a hold on any further equipment enhancing distance factors. So in reality the only way to accomplish the distance debacle currently under way is to focus upon course conditions and placement of hazards. Remember, we're talking tour and very elite Am competitions. Leave the rest of us hacks alone, we have enough dis-satisfactions with our game already. 

Haven’t current equipment standards been in place for 10yrs+?

[Shilgy]

33 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

So agree.

 

So agree.

 

 PGA could tweak the ball spec and set driver spec limits in such a way that dispersion widens to what was once common place in say 1995 but still allows 190 mph ball speeds. The skill set of ball striking and spin control rise once again, the big drive and big power associated with it remains but risk/ reward ratio is altered. So "small ball" golf is elevated without killing "bomb it" golf. Best of both worlds, style wise the ideal more like Tiger & less like John Daly. 

Go for it....but I don’t think you would like the result. The long guys on tour have more face control than you seem to think. So if they can still hit it as far as now that will not bring back the bunt it into the fairway strategy you apparently prefer.  If the long guy can keep it between the tree line a short hitter has no chance. And by short I mean what apparently many want-a 260 or so elite player. Not gonna happen...ever again. Unless of course some guy is sprinkled with fairy dust and makes every single putt from any distance. The reason I say that is because, unlike in the days past on tour, the long guys also have the same other skills as the short hitter. Same short game...same putting skills....same approach skills. There is no way for a truly short hitter to compete is simply because the long guys also have the other skills necessary.

[Shilgy]

29 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

There you go. I don’t know what the people looking for a 20% rollback are thinking.

 

Id prefer to see the distance leaders back at 300 yards. Average drive say 285. But equally as importantly, less forgiveness on mishits, smaller sweet spot, greater risk of dispersion. 
 

What’s wrong with that?

So just take away the drivers on tour. 

[Shilgy]

16 minutes ago, disco111 said:

The powers that be will not and advisedly should not do anything to the current equipment - law suits ala Karsten Ping would abound, but, yes BUT!! they do need to place a hold on any further equipment enhancing distance factors. So in reality the only way to accomplish the distance debacle currently under way is to focus upon course conditions and placement of hazards. Remember, we're talking tour and very elite Am competitions. Leave the rest of us hacks alone, we have enough dis-satisfactions with our game already. 

It would be interesting to see an elite event on some of the desert courses here in Arizona. Some, like the TPC where they play the Phoenix Open, are very playable from the desert.  But there are some good tracks where if you are wide of the grass corridor you have to take an unplayable with nowhere to go but back to the previous spot. It is even more unplayable than the Florida courses with water abounding on every hole. Cactus, bushes and rocks are not hospitable to golf swings.

[NRJyzr]

51 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

There you go. I don’t know what the people looking for a 20% rollback are thinking.

 

Id prefer to see the distance leaders back at 300 yards. Average drive say 285. But equally as importantly, less forgiveness on mishits, smaller sweet spot, greater risk of dispersion. 
 

What’s wrong with that?

 

That ship sailed with DL3.  Would have sailed with Jack, but he chose not to use it.

 

Actually, DL3 largely didn't, either...

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by NRJyzr

[Bubbtubbs]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

@bscinstnctI have been meaning to ask you this for awhile.  Who or what is Uncle Rico?

I think it's a reference to Napoleon Dynamite, but I could be wrong.

[disco111]

3 hours ago, Bad9 said:

Haven’t current equipment standards been in place for 10yrs+?

Apparently the standards have been eclipsed, other wise this distance discussion would not be taking place. The Masters may be the ice berg to this distance Titanic if Bryson uses the 48" driver and hits 400 yd bombs at will. You think we have a debate now! 

[Bad9]

3 minutes ago, disco111 said:

Apparently the standards have been eclipsed, other wise this distance discussion would not be taking place. The Masters may be the ice berg to this distance Titanic if Bryson uses the 48" driver and hits 400 yd bombs at will. You think we have a debate now! 

How many 400yd bombs did he hit at Winged Foot? I have no idea and would like to know.

[bscinstnct]

4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

So just take away the drivers on tour. 

 

Ultimately semantics what the club is labeled but I wouldn’t be in favor of limiting loft to the range that 3woods typically are. 
 

 

Just take the toasters away already. It’s ridiculous.

 

If they complain, just send these guys...

 

”Heres your new driver, enjoy”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[disco111]

1 hour ago, Bad9 said:

How many 400yd bombs did he hit at Winged Foot? I have no idea and would like to know.

Well, if you were actually up to date with what he's doing, you would have known that he is just NOW testing out that 48" driver. But even without it at WF, he hit a lot of 330+ with that paultry shorter driver he was using. Just keep tuning in and I'm sure somebody here will keep you up to speed, so when you ask a question, it will then actually have merit.........

Edited November 2, 2020 by disco111

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, disco111 said:

Apparently the standards have been eclipsed, other wise this distance discussion would not be taking place. 

 

The standards are still there, unchanged.  The distance explosion, as you call it, is a result of the player response to the ill-conceived attempts to Tiger-proof tour event venues.

 

How many times in the past have you seen 50 year olds gain swingspeed, as PMick has done?  It wasn't equipment that gave him that.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by NRJyzr

[ThinkingPlus]

7 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

TP! Well, I guess I just always assume that everyone has seen the movie Napoleon Dynamite...

 

Uncle Rico is a 40 something who was a High School football star, “throw a football over those mountains”, and constantly years for those “glory days” and laments what could have been. 
 

Id highly recommend you guys see the film.

 

Here is a short, hilarious, clip that explains Uncle Rico perfectly ; )

 

 

While I have heard of the movie, I have never seen it.

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

Nah, nevermind.

Edited November 2, 2020 by HappyGilmoresBoots
Harshin' my mellow

[bladehunter]

8 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

@bscinstnctI have been meaning to ask you this for awhile.  Who or what is Uncle Rico?

Ok.  So.... you now have no choice except to find Napoleon Dynamite through your favorite movie watching method.   And then watch it minimum 4 times in the next 2/3 weeks.  There are nuggets hidden in that Train wreck that cannot be found the first  time around.  

 

it’s a deep dive into some shallow places.  ( or maybe it’s the other way around ) 

 

I’ve probably seen it 50 times.  And I still die during Certain  parts. 
 

 

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

While I have heard of the movie, I have never seen it.

 

Well, ya should.

 

How often you get to see a guy hit somebody on a bike in the head with a steak thrown from the front stoop?  ; )

[bladehunter]

13 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Well, ya should.

 

How often you get to see a guy hit somebody on a bike in the head with a steak thrown from the front stoop?  ; )

Or a school bus full of kids see a senile old man shoot a cow by the bus stop ( they don’t show any harm to the cow  , just gunshot and moo imagery ) .....

 

how about a grown man throwing footballs to no one while filming himself ?  How about that same grown man hitting his own camera and breakig it with an errant throw !?  Lol. Always cracks me up how mad he is after that.  
 

or.... the Tupperware test that backfires for kip?  He backs the van over a bowl and newsflash - it busts into 200 pieces.  It’s pure gold Jerry !  Bow tO Your sensei  ! 

Edited November 2, 2020 by bladehunter

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Or a school bus full of kids see a senile old man shoot a cow by the bus stop ( they don’t show any harm to the cow  , just gunshot and moo imagery ) .....

 

how about a grown man throwing footballs to no one while filming himself ?  How about that same grown man hitting his own camera and breakig it with an errant throw !?  Lol. Always cracks me up how mad he is after that.  
 

or.... the Tupperware test that backfires for kip?  He backs the van over a bowl and newsflash - it busts into 200 pieces.  It’s pure gold Jerry !  Bow tO Your sensei  ! 

 

High School Freshman epitomized in 5 seconds ; )

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by bscinstnct

[milesgiles]

15 hours ago, Shilgy said:

So you want the balance upset but in the other direction? You want the greens to be rock hard and fast and tucked pins but guys having to approach with one irons?

 

Another strawman.