The biggest reasons ams don’t get better. Butch Harmon...

[bonvivantva]

42 minutes ago, glk said:

Which backswing swing looks more like this?
 

I don't know if this is a trick question, or I really am missing something.  It looks like the after to me (picture on the right).  Lead arm covering trail shoulder, 90 degrees-ish trail elbow, hands high, not excessively dipped down.  Am I missing something?

[glk]

15 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

I don't know if this is a trick question, or I really am missing something.  It looks like the after to me (picture on the right).  Lead arm covering trail shoulder, 90 degrees-ish trail elbow, hands high, not excessively dipped down.  Am I missing something?

Duh.   Your after is way, way better.

[YMark]

5 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

 

Ive seen a lot of good golf played from the before swing.

 

none at all from the after swing..

 

Wow. Either you're off base or I am. The after swing is much better.

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, YMark said:

 

Wow. Either you're off base or I am. The after swing is much better.

 

 

I may be off base. Just a statement of fact though, I can go to any county event and I’ll find you at least half a dozen players better than scratch with a backswing very similar to his ‘before’ position. The ‘after’ doesn’t look like anyone good I’ve ever played with, sorry 

[Feelingofgreatness]

My 2c...

A) The swing they are learning is too hard. Try a single plane swing. 

B) They use ill-fit equipment that isn't forgiving enough. 

C) Practice makes closer to perfect. 

 

[jobin]

Sorry, must disagree with belief that 'practice makes perfect', or is a certain path to perfection.

 

Incorrect or non-functional practice reinforces wrong technique and a continual march along this direction will lead to a much harder time getting off of it. 

 

The more data points along a regression line result in a stronger correlation.  Keep doing the wrong thing, for years on end, and learn how difficult to change this habit.

 

Yes, doing the correct thing over and over will help and with that i agree.  Perfect practice will yield a good result.  But in all cases, 'practice makes preferred'.  

[Krt22]

4 hours ago, YMark said:

 

Wow. Either you're off base or I am. The after swing is much better.

You are not at all off base, the after is way better.  Miles is a troll who likes to post contradictory stuff just for the fun of it. Far more tour pros are similar in structure to that than the before. I would not listen to anyone who legitimately thinks the left side is better. 

[Liveonce]

I believe the biggest deterrent to improvement is having the access to facilities. If you aren’t a member of a country club, don’t live on a golf course, or aren’t a junior golfer HS and below, it’s VERY difficult to get better. 

[milesgiles]

21 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

You are not at all off base, the after is way better.  Miles is a troll who likes to post contradictory stuff just for the fun of it. Far more tour pros are similar in structure to that than the before. I would not listen to anyone who legitimately thinks the left side is better. 

 

Im not a troll, post a good player with the ‘after’ backswing 

[bonvivantva]

58 minutes ago, jobin said:

Sorry, must disagree with belief that 'practice makes perfect', or is a certain path to perfection.

 

Incorrect or non-functional practice reinforces wrong technique and a continual march along this direction will lead to a much harder time getting off of it. 

 

The more data points along a regression line result in a stronger correlation.  Keep doing the wrong thing, for years on end, and learn how difficult to change this habit.

 

Yes, doing the correct thing over and over will help and with that i agree.  Perfect practice will yield a good result.  But in all cases, 'practice makes preferred'.  

That's another good point.  I more or less balked at the idea of being lost for 4-6 weeks, but in reality, it's possible to spend that time either reinforcing existing bad habits, or learning new ones...

 

21 minutes ago, Liveonce said:

I believe the biggest deterrent to improvement is having the access to facilities. If you aren’t a member of a country club, don’t live on a golf course, or aren’t a junior golfer HS and below, it’s VERY difficult to get better. 

Tell me about it.  I saw some middle school, or maybe early high school kids on the range one time (pre covid), and I don't know if I've ever been so jealous.  Not only did they have great swings, a coach kept walking up and down the row giving them advice.

[Krt22]

39 minutes ago, Liveonce said:

I believe the biggest deterrent to improvement is having the access to facilities. If you aren’t a member of a country club, don’t live on a golf course, or aren’t a junior golfer HS and below, it’s VERY difficult to get better. 

Having that access doesn't mean anything if you aren't working on the right things. We all have flaws that inherently limit our potential to score, playing a lot just means you find that limit a bit faster, but if you want to break through and lower that limit it's more than just reps. 

[nitram]

I was looking for this quote from Geoff Jones (Slicefixer) when I posted earlier in the thread.

 

A lesson a week is GROSS overkill.......UNLESS your working on long game one
week.....pitching/chipping another.......then putting.....then back to the long game,
etc.
This is a lil' pearl of wisdom that Chuck Hogan (author of Rethinking Golf) taught me during my playing days in
regards to ingraining a change.....
- 60 reps per day
- EVERY rep has a specific intention
- EVERY rep has your FULL attention
- For 21 days........
So, on the average, it will take you THREE WEEKS to ingrain even the simplest
things involving the golf swing......PATIENCE is the single greatest attribute you can
possess IF you REALLY want to be a good player.......both in building your golf
swing and in actually playing the game.....

[parforme]

Make a thousand good swings on the range and it is instantly forgotten.  Make one bad swing on the course and it is grooved for life.

[tm3]

16 hours ago, Krt22 said:

You are not at all off base, the after is way better.  Miles is a troll who likes to post contradictory stuff just for the fun of it. Far more tour pros are similar in structure to that than the before. I would not listen to anyone who legitimately thinks the left side is better. 

I don't know Miles and am not taking up for him, just expounding on my prior post where I said that I went in with more of the swing in the "after" pic and the teaching pro worked to get me more like the "before" pic ......

 

The red flag came out in lesson #1 when Pro said that "all of the best players on tour" tuck their right elbows in tight to their sides as they take the club behind them on a flat plane.  I didn't know a lot, but I knew enough to know that was wrong and should have bailed.  But I had already paid for a series of lessons, so I decided to stick it out -- after all, what harm could there be?  Oh, boy.

 

Moral of the story redux:  Before you work long and hard at making a change (as Butch and Monte say needs to be done), be sure that the instructor knows what he is talking about.  IMO some of them simply don't.

[SPIF]

16 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

Im not a troll, post a good player with the ‘after’ backswing 

 

https://www.pgatour.com/players.html  - Kuchar being the single exception.

 

I've always thought you were a troll.  Perhaps you just suffer from the Dunning-Krueger effect?

 

 

[SouthLand]

Welp.  Here’s the top of one of my backwswings recently, and my full swing game is a total mess at the moment.  Not definitive, of course, but I’d much rather have his ‘after’ swing than mine at the moment.

 

 

[golfsticks]

16 hours ago, milesgiles said:

Im not a troll

 

[Krt22]

39 minutes ago, SPIF said:

 

https://www.pgatour.com/players.html  - Kuchar being the single exception.

 

I've always thought you were a troll.  Perhaps you just suffer from the Dunning-Krueger effect?

 

 

Yep and he's possibly the pound for pound, inch for inch shortest hitter on tour. He is on tour, thus has the skill to make it work despite getting into that position, not the other way around

[glk]

14 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Yep and he's possibly the pound for pound, inch for inch shortest hitter on tour. He is on tour, thus has the skill to make it work despite getting into that position, not the other way around

Kuchar is not in op before position.  

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, glk said:

Kuchar is not in op before position.  

Agreed, in the face on view it would look very different. Kuchar still has much better tilts

[glk]

I could post lots of pro’s in a similar position to the after but I think this post from Scott Hamilton says a lot more

 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CHOHVuxgPBu/

[bonvivantva]

58 minutes ago, SouthLand said:

Welp.  Here’s the top of one of my backwswings recently, and my full swing game is a total mess at the moment.  Not definitive, of course, but I’d much rather have his ‘after’ swing than mine at the moment.

 

 

I'm not qualified to say if there is anything wrong with your swing, but it does look kind of like my before.  If you are trying to get more of my after look, the alignment rod behind you might be worth trying.  It's not fool-proof, but it may keep you from sucking the club inside (if you do).  I also think that because I often came over the top, I tried to get my hands/club as deep as possible.  That only exacerbated the problem.  The FEEL of the after swing to me, is that my hands and club are kind of out in front of me.  From pictures, I can see that they're not, but compared to being back super low and deep, it feels that way.  I wish I could help.  Your picture reminds me of my pre-lesson concept.  I was basically trying to get as far back and away from the ball as possible (away from 1st base) to swing to to first.  No matter how long I continued down that path I don't think I would have ever improved.  Good luck.

[MonteScheinblum]

Discussions on the swing always devolve into someone saying they have seen people play good from position/movement X.  Then another party shows a current tour player and another from the 60’s and say, “It worked out pretty well for them.”  
 

These are straw man arguments and boorish.  There are people who smoke 2 packs a day and live to be 100.  Does that make it OK for all of us?

 

Individuals can make about anything work, but there are easier, more efficient ways to do it.  The original conversation is always golfer Y is struggling and position/movement X is the main root cause, not that position/movement X can’t work and is universally bad.

Edited January 24, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[GoTime]

great job derailing this thread @milesgiles

[SouthLand]

Well, back to the OP’s point, I’d be really confident with these as the reasons I’m not getting better:

 

1) 4 young kids (all under 10) and a full time job
2) crappy sleep

3) Inconsistent, and insufficient, practice stemming from reason numero uno

 

I had consistent lessons over the winter of 19 and spring of 20.  I certainly improved in a number of areas (ball striking, distance, consistency) ultimately leading to my low round (88).  Quarantine pretty much killed my practice routine and ability to sneak in golf on the way home from work.  I’ve lost all that progress from the lessons, and their cost is somewhat prohibitive ‘cause CV19 has also put a decent crimp in the commission side of my income.

 

Those are *my* reasons for losing the feels and technique that lessons gave me.  It certainly wasn’t the instructor’s fault.  It wasn’t because I couldn’t handle something weird or different.  That bridge was successfully crossed in lesson 1 when he changed up my grip and lessons 2-6 when he got me swinging with a better AOA and path. 

[ALIF]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Discussions on the swing always devolve into someone saying they have seen people play good from position/movement X.  Then another party shows a current tour player and another from the 60’s and say, “It worked out pretty well for them.”  
 

These are straw man arguments and boorish.  There are people who smoke 2 packs a day and live to be 100.  Does that make it OK for all of us?

 

Individuals can make about anything work, but there are easier, more efficient ways to do it.  The original conversation is always golfer Y is struggling and position/movement X is the main root cause, not that position/movement X can’t work and is universally bad.

How dare you come in here and spew true facts!!!! 😂

[MonteScheinblum]

53 minutes ago, SouthLand said:

Well, back to the OP’s point, I’d be really confident with these as the reasons I’m not getting better:

 

1) 4 young kids (all under 10) and a full time job
2) crappy sleep

3) Inconsistent, and insufficient, practice stemming from reason numero uno

 

I had consistent lessons over the winter of 19 and spring of 20.  I certainly improved in a number of areas (ball striking, distance, consistency) ultimately leading to my low round (88).  Quarantine pretty much killed my practice routine and ability to sneak in golf on the way home from work.  I’ve lost all that progress from the lessons, and their cost is somewhat prohibitive ‘cause CV19 has also put a decent crimp in the commission side of my income.

 

Those are *my* reasons for losing the feels and technique that lessons gave me.  It certainly wasn’t the instructor’s fault.  It wasn’t because I couldn’t handle something weird or different.  That bridge was successfully crossed in lesson 1 when he changed up my grip and lessons 2-6 when he got me swinging with a better AOA and path. 

Yea, that doesn’t help....lol.  In 2019 when I qualified for the US Senior Open, the month before I spent packing up my house and family as I had to move.  

[milesgiles]

5 hours ago, SPIF said:

 

https://www.pgatour.com/players.html  - Kuchar being the single exception.

 

I've always thought you were a troll.  Perhaps you just suffer from the Dunning-Krueger effect?

 

 

 

It was pretty simple, all you had to do was find one photo of one player at the top of the backswing..

 

I don't approve of derailing threads, I was answering someone else with my experience of playing with good amateurs and pro's. This chap is quite good, and one of the longest..

[milesgiles]

4 hours ago, glk said:

I could post lots of pro’s in a similar position to the after but I think this post from Scott Hamilton says a lot more

 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CHOHVuxgPBu/

Only my opinion, but I've not seen the amateur that can get the club on the ball from anything like that position. Enough of the derail, I won't comment again ITT

[hybrid25]

I have a friend that exemplifies the OP's post, and then some. He's got one of the worst swings I have ever seen, has taken a set of lessons twice over the last 3 years. He starts out by utilizing what his instructor taught him, then after a few weeks later he's back to his old ways. The set of lessons he takes last a couple months, and i'm sure it costs plenty. I mean, why take lessons if you don't plan on following through with them by incorporating what you have been taught? What makes it worse is he makes every excuse for his wayward shots, it's never about the quality of his swing. It really is a comedy, crash and burn type of situation. I use to try to encourage him to work with what his instructor taught him, but no more, I just enjoy watching the train wreck.