What do we think of Faldo’s short tee idea?

[milesgiles]

Just now, Frankensteins Monster said:

I did and nothing in it points to the opposite of what I typed. The current rules of golf, set forth by the USGA, do NOT allow limiting tee height beyond the USGA's tee height limit by creating an arbitrary "local rule." If a course, or club, creates one, they are, in fact, in violation of the rules of golf set forth by the USGA.

 

Yes and this is what the governing bodies are considering reviewing. I know this, because it says so 

[Frankensteins Monster]

6 minutes ago, johnseg said:

I continue to see the distance issue as a series of solutions in search of a problem.  There is still plenty of skill in the game regardless of how far the ball goes.

 

One thing that nobody ever mentions is mindset. The mindset now seems to be get it as close as you can to the green. Rarely do you ever here of players hitting to a number anymore. No layups to 135 because it is a perfect wedge. Short game and putting are so under valued by people watching. Go back to bumpy shaggy greens and really start to here guys on tour complain.

Don't you know, Dechambeau shot 50 under at Augusta and won by one shot over Finau, Johnson, and Sadlowski?

[Frankensteins Monster]

1 minute ago, milesgiles said:

 

Yes and this is what the governing bodies are considering reviewing. I know this, because it says so 

You're flat out, wrong. Nothing in the article you're referencing mentions tee height, nor the ability to create willy nilly "local rules." I'm not sure what you're even arguing at this point.

[milesgiles]

5 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

You're flat out, wrong. Nothing in the article you're referencing mentions tee height, nor the ability to create willy nilly "local rules." I'm not sure what you're even arguing at this point.

 

“The USGA and R&A will collect feedback regarding the potential use of a Local Rule that specifies the use of clubs and balls intended to result in shorter hitting distances. The idea is to give tournament organizers and course operators more flexibility.”

 

so thats exactly what it says.. I’ve already explained a shorter tee means a smaller clubhead (which you conceded, eventually) so same difference (as I put in my original post)

Edited February 2, 2021 by milesgiles

[milesgiles]

11 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

Don't you know, Dechambeau shot 50 under at Augusta and won by one shot over Finau, Johnson, and Sadlowski?

 

From last year:

 

“Augusta National Chairman Fred Ridley says that golf is at a crossroads when it comes to the distance debate and that increased hitting distances are not good for the game.“

[cardoustie]

I ask this every time.. why would the world of golf allow the ruling bodies to make golf courses and properties crazy long and then limit club performance as it relates to 500 of the world’s top golfers ?   It makes no sense !!!!!!!

 

The tour is causing this issue .. WIDE open courses with limited rough.  Courses like Torrey prove when the rough is in you see scoring under control.  The issue is the tour wants massive amounts of birdies week to week for excitement so the courses are set up for bomb and gouge and potential eagles

 

Basketball is way easier than it was based on skills and player size etc.  Same in other sports

 

Tee height and driver length should be left alone.  I see 46” bandied about this morning .. so you tell me 46 is OK for a guy that is 5’3” like Woosie but a 6’6” pro can’t play 47.5” if he wants???

 

The ruling bodies are worried about optics for some reason and not the love of real hard core lovers of the game

 

Getting rid of one style of anchoring and kiboshing the old Vokey’s was the beginning of the end for me having any faith in upper mgmt at the USGA and R&A.  They ended Tim Clarke’s career ... and others

[Frankensteins Monster]

13 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

“The USGA and R&A will collect feedback regarding the potential use of a Local Rule that specifies the use of clubs and balls intended to result in shorter hitting distances. The idea is to give tournament organizers and course operators more flexibility.”

 

so thats exactly what it says.. I’ve already explained a shorter tee means a smaller clubhead (which you conceded, eventually) so same difference (as I put in my original post)

I'm not conceding anything. You're wrong. It's that simple. Nowhere is tee height mentioned, anywhere, in that article. Nor is creating free roaming "local rules." Your argument seems to be based on feelings and assumptions, not the actual facts.

[dlygrisse]

13 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

I ask this every time.. why would the world of golf allow the ruling bodies to make golf courses and properties crazy long and then limit club performance as it relates to 500 of the world’s top golfers ?   It makes no sense !!!!!!!

 

The tour is causing this issue .. WIDE open courses with limited rough.  Courses like Torrey prove when the rough is in you see scoring under control.  The issue is the tour wants massive amounts of birdies week to week for excitement so the courses are set up for bomb and gouge and potential eagles

 

Basketball is way easier than it was based on skills and player size etc.  Same in other sports

 

Tee height and driver length should be left alone.  I see 46” bandied about this morning .. so you tell me 46 is OK for a guy that is 5’3” like Woosie but a 6’6” pro can’t play 47.5” if he wants???

 

The ruling bodies are worried about optics for some reason and not the love of real hard core lovers of the game

 

Getting rid of one style of anchoring and kiboshing the old Vokey’s was the beginning of the end for me having any faith in upper mgmt at the USGA and R&A.  They ended Tim Clarke’s career ... and others

You are spot on here.  I never liked anchored putting, but to let it go on for so long, so long that people built their careers around doing it, then outlawing it is absurd.  If they would have pulled the plug the season it started then.....ok.  But at some point 460cc's and longer shafts become the norm, and I think we have reached that point.  

 

Vokey SM2's were the greatest wedges ever.  

Edited February 2, 2021 by dlygrisse

[woodriff]

Actually, ever since I heard it I liked it! 

[Frankensteins Monster]

12 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

From last year:

 

“Augusta National Chairman Fred Ridley says that golf is at a crossroads when it comes to the distance debate and that increased hitting distances are not good for the game.“

Don't care what the chairman says. Doesn't change the fact that the longest hitter didn't win last year, two years ago, the year before that, the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, then Bubba won, nor the year before that, then Bubba, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that...

 

Colonial is still a test. Reed won in Mexico. TPC River Highlands winner has only been -20 or more three times since 1985 and during that time the average winning score was -14.

[dlygrisse]

9 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

Don't care what the chairman says. Doesn't change the fact that the longest hitter didn't win last year, two years ago, the year before that, the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, then Bubba won, nor the year before that, then Bubba, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that...

 

Colonial is still a test. Reed won in Mexico. TPC River Highlands winner has only been -20 or more three times since 1985 and during that time the average winning score was -14.

Courses can be be tricked up to play tough, I think the point is they aren't being played as the architect intended.  For the average club member this really isn't a issue, but when you start hitting it 350 it's a little weird.  What Bryson did at Winged Foot is not how the course was designed to be played, but it worked for him that week, does it work every week, nope, but i am sure we will see more of it.  

[milesgiles]

24 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

I'm not conceding anything. You're wrong. It's that simple. Nowhere is tee height mentioned, anywhere, in that article. Nor is creating free roaming "local rules." Your argument seems to be based on feelings and assumptions, not the actual facts.

 

You can have a local rule for clubs and balls

 

but NOT THE TEES, god no.. lol 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

1 hour ago, mokedaddy said:

The tee solution does not appear to even be on the USGA’s radar.

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/02/02/usga-distance-report-local-rule-equipment-testing/

 

 

 

Good, it's a nonsensical idea. Fix the ball or roll back spring like effect.

Edited February 2, 2021 by TLUBulldogGolf

[milesgiles]

23 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

Don't care what the chairman says. Doesn't change the fact that the longest hitter didn't win last year, two years ago, the year before that, the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, then Bubba won, nor the year before that, then Bubba, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that, nor the year before that...

 

Colonial is still a test. Reed won in Mexico. TPC River Highlands winner has only been -20 or more three times since 1985 and during that time the average winning score was -14.

 

The chairman is hardly a lone voice in this

 

and nowhere did I mention anything about winning scores 

[Potatohead]

41 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

You are spot on here.  I never liked anchored putting, but to let it go on for so long, so long that people built their careers around doing it, then outlawing it is absurd.  If they would have pulled the plug the season it started then.....ok.  But at some point 460cc's and longer shafts become the norm, and I think we have reached that point.  

 

Vokey SM2's were the greatest wedges ever.  

 

I still use them, oil can in 52/56/60. They are pretty worn out though but still spin fine compared to the new ones. 

 

Before that I had a set of 588's for about 10+ years also. I don't like switching wedges. 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Potatohead

[cardoustie]

I still use the old sm2 and TVD wedges front that time myself ... so good.  Spin great but best feel as well

[milesgiles]

57 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

I ask this every time.. why would the world of golf allow the ruling bodies to make golf courses and properties crazy long and then limit club performance as it relates to 500 of the world’s top golfers ?   It makes no sense !!!!!!!

 

 I mean, why indeed? Allowing technology to take over was a huge goof 

[Frankensteins Monster]

51 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

You can have a local rule for clubs and balls

 

but NOT THE TEES, god no.. lol 

Talk to the USGA. That’s the rules set forth by them. 

[MUNIGRIT]

Haven't read all the posts but Faldos short tee idea. Hmm the long guys will still be the longest and the short guys will be short.

Edited February 2, 2021 by MUNIGRIT

[ThinkingPlus]

2 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

Since that's how the game was played for 250 of its 270 years, I fail to see the ludicrousness

Please provide proof.

[ChipNRun]

16 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

have some variance in the sand texture.

Interesting... a local pro says the PGA often top-dresses the bunkers with nice sand the pros like the week before the tournament.

 

Or, we could go back to the future, a la Oakmont: Until about 1964, the Pittsburgh area course used a furrow rakes to leave grooved lies in its bunkers.

 

 

Nicklaus had furrowed bunkers at Muirfield (Ohio) for the 2006 Memorial Tournament, and it caused a bit of a stir. See furrows and rake above.

 

Quick stat summary from Muirfleld + furrows:

• Memorial had fourth lowest percentage of greenside sand saves for 2006 tournaments (41%.6%... lowest was Honda Classic with 37.7%, out of bunkers with standard raking)
• Memorial had lowest percentage of Greens In Regulation for approaches from fairway bunkers (25%, as compared to 47.2% on average for other 2006 tournaments).

For more details, see PGA Furrowed Bunkers

[ozarkgolfer]

Too late to change equipment in the player's bags - no one wants to play different equipment or rules (tee height regulations, ball restrictions etc included). 

 

The only reasonable solution is (where possible) narrow the fairways at 260 and between 280 and 350, grade the fairways so a) the ball does not roll out as far and b) the lie isn't quite as perfect. Grow the rough just off the narrowed fairway, but keep it trimmed on the tree line, so balls don't all completely disappear. It's a subtle change to the TV eye, but keeps the pros in check whilst allowing course to cater to the amateurs. Not all holes will be conducive to this change, but enough to prevent bomb and gouge playing style.

 

Also use rakes with teeth in the bunkers to prevent that perfect lie for the automatic up & down, and grow the rough around the green edges. 

[Pepperturbo]

Faldo brought up Tee height more than once, suggesting lower tee height limits distance.  I've watched enough superb golfers and pros to say, I don't often see any of them purposely increasing tee high to get greater distance or to cover a hazard.  Not to say it doesn't happen, but TV cameras are on the ball of most tee boxes.  Pros have a standard tee height for driver and a lower one for irons.  I haven't seen anyone trying to be that dynamic with tee height, nor do I believe his square toed shoes will add distance.  He's been drinking too much of his own wine and buying adulation from goof balls.

 

I play with plenty of good golfers and don't see it much there either.   The last time I recall doing that was a couple of months back when I was a long elevated Par 4 tee and wind was unusually at my back.  I teed the ball as high as possible, it flattened my plane a bit and got the ball up into the jet-stream.  What I can't say though is how much yardage that specific tee shot got me that I am not getting with my standard tee height. 

 

OK - two other factors to my sudden increase in distance at 70 yrs old.  I bought a box of new AVX balls to see for myself if they are longer, and the new Ventus Red 5 series "S" at 59g.  It fits my mechanics perfectly.  I can hit it high or low like bullet.  However, for most tee shots, I teed the ball at my normal height.  Recently, standing on a 390yd uphill Par 4 dog leg left.  The hole has bunkers in the dog-leg which I have never covered before.  I teed the AVX ball a bit down, widened my stance, and hit a beauty of a tee shot; covered those bunkers ball landed on a down slope resulting in bounces and roll which got me an extra 30yrds, for a leave of 85yds.  Do the math.  I can't see teeing the ball any lower even with smaller 350cc head driver, like I used to play.  I don't see tee height as an inhibitor for better amateurs or pros.  But maybe that's because I drink single malt and my golf shoes are more pointed toes.  LOL

[munichop]

I would get rid of tees entirely for the pros.  Easier to police.  Let them hit driver off the deck like Brooke does on the LPGA.

[MUNIGRIT]

12 minutes ago, ozarkgolfer said:

Too late to change equipment in the player's bags - no one wants to play different equipment or rules (tee height regulations, ball restrictions etc included). 

 

The only reasonable solution is (where possible) narrow the fairways at 260 and between 280 and 350, grade the fairways so a) the ball does not roll out as far and b) the lie isn't quite as perfect. Grow the rough just off the narrowed fairway, but keep it trimmed on the tree line, so balls don't all completely disappear. It's a subtle change to the TV eye, but keeps the pros in check whilst allowing course to cater to the amateurs. Not all holes will be conducive to this change, but enough to prevent bomb and gouge playing style.

 

Also use rakes with teeth in the bunkers to prevent that perfect lie for the automatic up & down, and grow the rough around the green edges. 

That is still recipe for bomb and gouge. Doing that makes the short guys in the rough with longer clubs too. I think most people know Bryson isn't a huge run out guy but carries the ball most of his distance.

[MUNIGRIT]

What would Faldo and all the guys now that hate on technology and new players do if they made them use the same equipment they used and they would still be a lot longer than he was? What would he want them to do then? We would need to change a lot of courses that were remodeled too.

[milesgiles]

28 minutes ago, ozarkgolfer said:

 

 

The only reasonable solution is (where possible) narrow the fairways at 260 and between 280 and 350, grade the fairways so a) the ball does not roll out as far and b) the lie isn't quite as perfect. Grow the rough just off the narrowed fairway, but keep it trimmed on the tree line, so balls don't all completely disappear. It's a subtle change to the TV eye, but keeps the pros in check whilst allowing course to cater to the amateurs. Not all holes will be conducive to this change, but enough to prevent bomb and gouge playing style.

 

 

Couldnt agree less. Arbritrary and unfair. No one is in favour of penalising long hitters. It’s also a lot of work 

[milesgiles]

56 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Please provide proof.

 

They were teeing it up, as a matter of course, 2, 3 or 4 inches with persimmon? Or the original small metal heads? That’s your contention? 

[milesgiles]

26 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

What would Faldo and all the guys now that hate on technology and new players do if they made them use the same equipment they used and they would still be a lot longer than he was? What would he want them to do then? We would need to change a lot of courses that were remodeled too.

 

Has he ever made any claims about how long he was?

read my original post. The point isn’t that this generation is on average longer than his, it’s that big drivers are too easy to swing hard with and have little fear of a bad miss.. unlike persimmon.

[Arn]

I got here too late to make fun of Faldo’s distance shoes....