What do we think of Faldo’s short tee idea?

[pgatw]

i am with Webb on this one. The equipment rollback idea is a road to no end of trouble.

[tthomasgolfer605]

On 2/2/2021 at 3:41 PM, ChipNRun said:

Interesting... a local pro says the PGA often top-dresses the bunkers with nice sand the pros like the week before the tournament.

 

Or, we could go back to the future, a la Oakmont: Until about 1964, the Pittsburgh area course used a furrow rakes to leave grooved lies in its bunkers.

 

 

Nicklaus had furrowed bunkers at Muirfield (Ohio) for the 2006 Memorial Tournament, and it caused a bit of a stir. See furrows and rake above.

 

Quick stat summary from Muirfleld + furrows:

• Memorial had fourth lowest percentage of greenside sand saves for 2006 tournaments (41%.6%... lowest was Honda Classic with 37.7%, out of bunkers with standard raking)
• Memorial had lowest percentage of Greens In Regulation for approaches from fairway bunkers (25%, as compared to 47.2% on average for other 2006 tournaments).

For more details, see PGA Furrowed Bunkers

I remember that. That only lasted one year because players were crying it was too difficult. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

On 2/2/2021 at 5:22 AM, milesgiles said:

 

Dont see what that has to do with short tees.

 

i don’t really mind them shooting 20 under. Make the courses par 70 brings it back to 12 under by itself.

Looking for alternatives because a short tee won't do anything and is a dumb idea.

[milesgiles]

3 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Looking for alternatives because a short tee won't do anything and is a dumb idea.

 

Alternatives to what? You don’t understand the issue, read my first post again 

[caniac6]

I just saw a commercial, and Nick said he picked up 7 yards since switching to the Squairz shoes. Mabye the USGA just needs to ban the shoes.

[foozledbaffy]

My thought is that the "elite" players should not be able to play a club, other than putter, with less than 18 degrees of loft (18 is just the a number for conversation).  That would cost them sufficient yardage and otherwise we would all have the same ball and clubs.  Athletes at the top level are going to continue to get longer and better and that is not up for debate.

[tthomasgolfer605]

12 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Alternatives to what? You don’t understand the issue, read my first post again 

I agree with a lot of your original post. I actually saw gains in power and accuracy with a 360cc driver because more of the mass is behind the sweetspot. I don't agree they'd lose 20-30 yards of carry though with a smaller/tee head unless they were forced to use a steel head or persimmon. To this day I go out to a shorter Donald Ross track with persimmon and get it around pretty well and the distance loss is negligible. I think that's more of the ball changes though. What cracks me up is when courses are being built at 7000+ when they have no chance of holding a championship of any kind and 99 percent of the golfers who pay green fees have about 20mph less than a tour pro. 

[wcbjr]

If COR is the same in a smaller form factor, the ball should go the same distance, correct?

[ChipNRun]

4 hours ago, caniac6 said:

I just saw a commercial, and Nick said he picked up 7 yards since switching to the Squairz shoes. Maybe the USGA just needs to ban the shoes.

 

And, ban brush-top tees too. Reminds me an years-ago interview with USGA equipment certification official in Golf Digest. The questioning went something like this:

 

Q. Are the (then) new brush-top golf tees legal?

A. Yes, as per USGA.

 

Q. But, do the brush-tops really give golfers an extra 4 yards on tee shots?

A. That's the concern of the fraud division of the Federal Trade Commission, not the USGA.

[farmer]

7 hours ago, wcbjr said:

If COR is the same in a smaller form factor, the ball should go the same distance, correct?

Yes. Touring level players hit the middle more often than they miss the middle, which negates the small head argument.

[milesgiles]

6 minutes ago, farmer said:

Yes. Touring level players hit the middle more often than they miss the middle, which negates the small head argument.

 

Why do they NEED a 460 then??

[farmer]

Miles, you're getting as bad as 15.  The tour players don't NEED a 460 cc driver.  The companies that sponsor them or even just give them free stuff want to SELL a 460 cc driver.  Which, your assertions aside, are easier to play for the folks who actually pay the bills.

[milesgiles]

5 minutes ago, farmer said:

Miles, you're getting as bad as 15.  The tour players don't NEED a 460 cc driver.  The companies that sponsor them or even just give them free stuff want to SELL a 460 cc driver.  Which, your assertions aside, are easier to play for the folks who actually pay the bills.

 

 

But that was true with traditional size clubs, as long as there have been golf equipment companies..honestly, nobody playing any level of competitive golf at all is going to have a nervous breakdown with a 300 cc club.. which is still pretty damn big.

 

outside of that, the casual, recreational player, as many have said they don’t play by any rules except their own anyway. Probably half their bag is (accidentally) non conforming. 

[Jifmoli]

As Rory said after reading the distance study done by the PGA, it is not an issue really - only 0.1% of all golfers in the world bomb it like that. So any solution that affect the other 99.9% of golfers seems overkill. For the fast majority, the game is just fine.

 

Many of the solutions offered will penalise the long hitters. Plant a tree at 300 yards on the fairway, only the big hitters get penalised. Make the fairway narrower 300+ yards, only the long hitters get penalised. Same with increasing the rough from that distance. Someone who is strong, gifted or works out hard in the gym does not get rewarded for that? Narrow fairways and tough roughs all along the fairway's length will be fairer. Big hit often equates to big miss as well, so the bombers may think twice?

 

Rolling back the ball affects everyone, not just the long hitters. Maybe the scores will go up again and courses will not have to be altered, but the long hitters will always have an advantage. You have to roll it back by a lot: a recent comparison between the original Pro V1 (20 years ago) and the current only showed 3 or 4 yards extra distance. But it is not a good solution either - there are hundreds of millions of balls around and they become obsolete in an instance? No thanks, golf is expensive enough already.

 

Bifurcation? A solution perhaps but makes it harder to compare your game with the pros (which we all do a bit don't we?) but still not a solution: the long hitters will still have an advantage. But who does it apply to? Just the pros and not the amateurs? Or anyone from -3 and lower?

 

One solution that I don't see mentioned much won't cost a thing...use the handicap system for pros as well. DJ, JT I believe are at +6.5 or so. Let the HC be used. BDC bomb & chip to -30 for the comp? His HC will be +15 in no time...

 

1. The 460 clubhead and a high tee has led to pro’s carrying trouble in a way that architects could never envisage - that, and the stronger, fitter players - obviously..

2. This counts for too much relative to other parts of the game. Balance between skill and power is being lost. - you mean the mid irons I guess? Cause the putting and short game won't change much. BDC showed that his long hits counted for nothing at Augusta, as he lacked the skills (that week at least) to do the rest.

3. Tees get pushed ever further back, golf courses take up ever bigger acreages, rounds take longer. - agreed, wrong decision. Planting a tree in the middle of the fairway would have been cheaper and better for the environment.

4. Many classic golf courses are no longer useable for tournaments. - sure they are, but as in any sport, the bigger/stronger/faster will win..

5. Spectators are increasingly unlikely to even be able to see the ball in flight.  - that's ok, covid1984 is here to stay.. Or you can only turn pro when over 45..😉

6.  The game is too one dimensional, too many players simply trying to get it within wedge distance on any hole, fairway or not. Fewer clubs are used on approach shots. - plant trees, more doglegs, narrow fairways, tough rough

7. Golfers themselves are becoming homogenised into big, powerful athletes able to swing at 120mph plus.  Used to be a game for all shapes and sizes, because there were a lot of ways to skin the cat. Trevino, Faldo, Player. Crenshaw, Ballesteros etc. - TW has a lot to answer for...he made the game look like a sport, when we short, fat bastards could be credible before!!!!🙂

8 .Never going to see a truly dominant player again, too much of a level playing field with a ridiculous oversized driver. No more dynasties, few multiple major winners. - YAY! Now I have to sit it out till the end before I know how will win!!!

9. Self evident the 460 is way too big and forgiving for the professional game. The bigger the effective hitting area, the harder you can swing with less fear of a bad miss. - I agree with this, I noticable swing more controled with my 3w than the big bad driver.

[Ferguson]

 

I knew I should have posted in this thread!!   Too busy with Rory and Pat Reed. 

 

kicking myself.

 

 

[Sean2]

On 2/3/2021 at 8:53 PM, cardoustie said:

It’s nice to read a tour player say it’s courses that are the issue

I have been saying this for a number of years, but who listens to me? lol

[Sean2]

They could go the Laura Davies route. She never uses a tee.

 

[kasting333]

1 hour ago, Sean2 said:

They could go the Laura Davies route. She never uses a tee.

 

I saw Davies duff a drive into the water at a LPGA event at Tulsa CC. The ball maybe flew 60 yds in the air. 
 

She should’ve used a tee

[johnseg]

[Rich Douglas]

Not sure anyone is using the tee to add yards. Is anyone even teeing it up the full 4 inches anyway?

 

Limits on clubs--COR and CCs--have helped. As more exotic materials are created, limiting the shaft length will help there, too.

 

I suspect most of the distance gains we've seen come from greater athletics.

 

Then there is the ball. Everyone knows the ball is part of the--but not the entire--problem. There was a time when you had to choose between spin and distance. Professionals all would choose spin, making the choice (usually Titleist) of balata, wound cores, and liquid centers. Two-piece Surlyn balls were for amateurs (who got less spin on slices and more distance, but sacrificed greenside performance they weren't getting anyway due to a lack of skill). Professionals (and other highly capable players) gave up distance, used the spin to shape shots, and got way better reaction around the greens. 

 

But no more. Every player at every level benefits from using a "tour" ball. Better players get all the greenside spin they want and none of the distance loss off the tee. Bombs away!

 

Change the ball. Get it back to where players have to decide what to emphasize with it.

[PostandGhost]

No need to rollback anything or get rid of tees.  If the USGA thinks the guys hit it too long, just make it a one stroke penalty if a player hits a shot more than 300 yards.  Simple and effective.  

Edited February 5, 2021 by From_Parts_Unknown

[milesgiles]

3 hours ago, From_Parts_Unknown said:

No need to rollback anything or get rid of tees.  If the USGA thinks the guys hit it too long, just make it a one stroke penalty if a player hits a shot more than 300 yards.  Simple and effective.  

 

Are  you one of the yahoos at the Waste Management by any chance?

[PostandGhost]

On 2/5/2021 at 8:10 PM, milesgiles said:

 

Are  you one of the yahoos at the Waste Management by any chance?

Haha, I wish I was.  I'm just a guy who thinks dumb problems should get dumb solutions.  

Edited February 8, 2021 by From_Parts_Unknown

[milesgiles]

 

I’m certain I was told pro’s always middle it..

[ThinkingPlus]

7 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I’m certain I was told pro’s always middle it..

Just Americans.  You Euros are hacks. 😉 JK

[Pepperturbo]

Steel spikes helped me a great deal to swing hard.  Since I haven't enjoyed them, I don't swing as hard. 

 

I wonder how much they influence the distance of pros, given, more than a few still enjoy them.  Been noticing players with steel spikes in shoes you wouldn't expect to have spikes.  They are not noticed until someone walks across the cart path.  Maybe banning them 100% would influence distance.

[BNGL]

On 2/2/2021 at 4:41 PM, ChipNRun said:

Interesting... a local pro says the PGA often top-dresses the bunkers with nice sand the pros like the week before the tournament.

 

Or, we could go back to the future, a la Oakmont: Until about 1964, the Pittsburgh area course used a furrow rakes to leave grooved lies in its bunkers.

 

 

Nicklaus had furrowed bunkers at Muirfield (Ohio) for the 2006 Memorial Tournament, and it caused a bit of a stir. See furrows and rake above.

 

Quick stat summary from Muirfleld + furrows:

• Memorial had fourth lowest percentage of greenside sand saves for 2006 tournaments (41%.6%... lowest was Honda Classic with 37.7%, out of bunkers with standard raking)
• Memorial had lowest percentage of Greens In Regulation for approaches from fairway bunkers (25%, as compared to 47.2% on average for other 2006 tournaments).

For more details, see PGA Furrowed Bunkers

You can tell your local pro that he's wrong. There is not much bunker work going advance week, especially topdressing the bunkers. Think about it, as soon as someone raked the bunker after playing out of it would be tilled and mixed with the other sand in the bunker making it look like crap.

I will agree though that bunkers are meant to be hazards, and furrowing did ruffles some feathers amongst the players.

[gvogel]

I'm old enough to remember players hitting pop ups with smaller headed drivers - even pros.  Jay Haas hit a pop up about 150 yards on the 18th hole at Oak Hill in a Ryder Cup match.

 

With a smaller headed driver, it is more difficult to hit up on the ball.  

 

If the pros went to very short tees, it would be difficult to get the ball up in the air with a 460cc driver, because the contact would be lower on the face (bigger face, ball near the ground).  Distance would certainly suffer.  I suspect the pros would adjust by going to smaller drivers, and a bit more loft.  Distance would suffer.

[milesgiles]

14 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Just Americans.  You Euros are hacks. 😉 JK

 

5-0 last Ryder Cup..

[gvogel]

Yesterday we saw players drive the green on the 4th hole at Pebble.  We saw players hit drive, wedge on holes 9 and 10 (albeit, downwind).  At 7,000 yards, Pebble is too short for modern equipment.  Or modern equipment is too long for Pebble.