What do we think of Faldo’s short tee idea?

[milesgiles]

8 hours ago, MPAndreassi said:

I enjoy the old courses just as much as anyone, however there’s new people in the game all the time. To them a “traditional” driver is 460cc. Should they be penalized for being born too late or starting the game too late and have to go backwards? Golf has to evolve to survive. At some point the classic courses we all love are going to be forgotten and replaced, it’s just the cycle of life. 

 

 

Its difficult to put the cat back in the bag, do you really think the authorities would do the same thing again given the chance? I don’t.

 

golf has de-evolved, become simpler and more one dimensional. It’s also got less popular with more courses closing than opening. Some of my favourite rounds have been on the classic uk tests, some of my least favourite have been when I’ve paid far too much for a modern tour course 

[milesgiles]

7 hours ago, farmer said:

I'm so glad someone finally brought up this topic.  Miles, really, again?

 

You can make 6 more Patrick Reed threads if you prefer 

[milesgiles]

7 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

The ball goes farther because of a combination of reasons.  
 

Big head, swing hard, don’t worry about miss hit. 
Lighter longer shaft. 
COR, spring face at high speed gives long hitters extra ball speed.  Exponentially more than short hitters. 
Deep face, high tee, launch high with low spin. 
Modern ball launches high with less spin on drives, still spins good with irons.  
Technology, optimize with radar and launch monitor 

Lawn mowers and better agronomy. 
Fitness and technique.  

 

In my opinion the ball should spin more off the driver. If it did they would have to learn to flight the ball down or work it with the wind. They would have to worry about miss hits, hit more smooth shots, especially into the wind. To me the modern ball gives you the best of both worlds, you used to have to choose between spin for all clubs or distance with all clubs.  
 

Nick is right, a lower tee would increase spin and lower launch some, but a modern low lofted 3 wood would still go a long way. Higher spin ball would resolve a lot of this. Get the RPM Over 3k
 

 

 

Theres not many pro’s carrying a 3 wood 300. Rory is around 275. I think you may be right about a higher spinning ball, but doesn’t that make it harder to shape a ball sideways? 

[milesgiles]

9 hours ago, golfer929 said:

What classic courses that always have held events no longer usable?

 

Sunningdale is maybe the best uk example. The Old Course SA now extends onto a different course entirely and in average conditions still leaves at least 2/3 driveable par 4s with nowhere else left to extend tees.

Others I’ve played that have held full tour events but can’t anymore, Queens Bournemouth, St Pierre, Fulford, St Mellion(Nicklaus’ first uk design but already outdated), Lindrick, St Anne’s, Moor Park , Dukes at Woburn, etc etc. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by milesgiles

[milesgiles]

5 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I'm not saying make greens bumpy or anything. Have em at different speeds from day to day. Vary depth of the sand a bit so they have to adjust their technique to hit a good shot. You can have a course look pretty and still make it more challenging. 

 

Dont see what that has to do with short tees.

 

i don’t really mind them shooting 20 under. Make the courses par 70 brings it back to 12 under by itself.

[braincramp52]

I try to ignore anything Faldo says.

[milesgiles]

17 minutes ago, braincramp52 said:

I try to ignore anything Faldo says.

 

 

6 majors what does he know..

[BIG STU]

10 hours ago, 1s1k said:

He wants to dial back distance but promotes Sqairz golf shoes??!!  Guy is unreal

Kinda like Nicklaus a little while back wanting to roll the ball back---- His golf company at the time was marketing those "Golden Bear" golf balls. Now there there was not anything said about reduced distance with them which I do not know if they were or not. I know they did not sell. And BTW I am a big Nicklaus fan but I was just pointing something out

[braincramp52]

5 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

 

6 majors what does he know..

Faldo to me is like Patrick Reed to others. I just think he's a Word not allowed**** He thinks he's the funniest and smartest guy in the room.

[Bye]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

Sunningdale is maybe the best uk example. The Old Course SA now extends onto a different course entirely and in average conditions still leaves at least 2/3 driveable par 4s with nowhere else left to extend tees.

Others I’ve played that have held full tour events but can’t anymore, Queens Bournemouth, St Pierre, Fulford, St Mellion(Nicklaus’ first uk design but already outdated), Lindrick, St Anne’s, Moor Park  etc etc. 

I love Sunningdale, for anyone that has not made it there it is a must. Both courses.

 

Sadly though, even if the ball was changed, it wouldn’t host a main tour event. 
 

A lower tee height wouldn’t change much for long. The original titanium drivers were quite easy to hit off the deck. And some guys could flight it like it was hit from a high tee. 

[caniac6]

13 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

 

6 majors what does he know..

It means he knows how to play links golf and Augusta. 

 

[milesgiles]

9 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

It means he knows how to play links golf and Augusta. 

 

 

Which are the two places you hear the most, every year, about the distance debate 

[milesgiles]

16 minutes ago, braincramp52 said:

Faldo to me is like Patrick Reed to others. I just think he's a Word not allowed**** He thinks he's the funniest and smartest guy in the room.

 

I think he’s actually a far better commentator than I would ever have thought possible growing up watching him. 

[milesgiles]

16 minutes ago, Bye said:

I love Sunningdale, for anyone that has not made it there it is a must. Both courses.

 

Sadly though, even if the ball was changed, it wouldn’t host a main tour event. 
 

A lower tee height wouldn’t change much for long. The original titanium drivers were quite easy to hit off the deck. And some guys could flight it like it was hit from a high tee. 

 

I disagree, but where is the harm in trying it for an event? This winter would have been ideal 

[Bye]

30 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I disagree, but where is the harm in trying it for an event? This winter would have been ideal 

The low tee thing? If so what height?

[FakeClubPro]

Torrey Pines required a lot of skill and the scores were not that low.  Sir Nick and nantz the ponce "was hatin on" P Reed who used a lot of precision around Torrey.   The PGA and USGA should look at Torrey and why it is a tough track.  Torrey should have moved the tees back another 5 to 10 yards and scores would have been higher.

[milesgiles]

21 minutes ago, FakeClubPro said:

Torrey Pines required a lot of skill and the scores were not that low.  Sir Nick and nantz the ponce "was hatin on" P Reed who used a lot of precision around Torrey.   The PGA and USGA should look at Torrey and why it is a tough track.  Torrey should have moved the tees back another 5 to 10 yards and scores would have been higher.

 

I enjoyed watching it and think the rough and softer fairways with limited roll made a big difference.

Just think a short tee has a similar impact without the need to trick up a course, which requires the right weather and maintenance, a lot of ball spotting, endless controversy over embedded balls, and ultimately is probably not that popular with the pro’s.

[milesgiles]

37 minutes ago, Bye said:

The low tee thing? If so what height?

 

Faldo suggested 7/8” which is the blue tee in the picture (just the castle bit not the whole peg)

 

I think that’s about right, I’d suggest up until the 460 era no one really teed it up much more than that 

[caniac6]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

Which are the two places you hear the most, every year, about the distance debate 

All Augusta needs to do is grow some rough, and the difficulty of links courses in dictated by the weather, and a long tee or short tee can't do anything about that. When Nick stops shilling shoes that can add to increased distance, mabye then, I'll listen, but now, he's talking out both sides of his mouth.

[FakeClubPro]

18 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I enjoyed watching it and think the rough and softer fairways with limited roll made a big difference.

Just think a short tee has a similar impact without the need to trick up a course, which requires the right weather and maintenance, a lot of ball spotting, endless controversy over embedded balls, and ultimately is probably not that popular with the pro’s.

 

The long Par 3 at 16 was really tough.  When the had the hole towards the back on Sat - every guy was coming up short because, I think, the ocean wind.   They would hit the shot and it was either short or they bailed out to the right near the sand trap.

 

I think 14 was another one.  All of Torrey looks flat with little water if any, not that many trees just those canyon like drop offs.  It looks easy but it is damn hard.  The ocean wind and cold can cause havoc.  Rahm, Scott and Hovland had a miserable time on 14.   Torrey also has some pretty long holes.

 

If the PGA is so worried about bombers - analyzer Torrey.  Wolff pulled out with maybe a wrist issue or fatigue. I would have liked to see how Bryson would have done.  Finau anoither bomber and he did alright. 

[Bye]

18 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Faldo suggested 7/8” which is the blue tee in the picture (just the castle bit not the whole peg)

 

I think that’s about right, I’d suggest up until the 460 era no one really teed it up much more than that 

I think most of the players would adjust very quickly. It is about as high as I tee it up.

 

I am with you though on wanting to see the older courses back on the rota. But I am more for going back to a higher spinning ball. No bifurcation. 

[Bad9]

Isn't there a hundreds of post thread on this already?

[Sean2]

This whole roll back idea seems to be a solution in search of a problem. 

[milesgiles]

18 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

This whole roll back idea seems to be a solution in search of a problem. 

 

I listed about 10 issues.. you don’t agree at all with a single one??

[cleverprimate24]

I think capping performance of balls and Drivers where they are would be fine, but to me rolling them back isn't the right answer. It's one thing to make certain groove patterns in wedges illegal, but telling everyone who has bought a driver in the last 10 years it's now illegal is just ridiculous to me.

 

(To those who say just roll back for the pros and elite amateur tournaments) I think one thing that makes golf special is that we have access to the same equipment as the pros and can compare our abilities or (lack thereof) to the pros on a relatively level playing field and sometimes at the same venues. 

 

I think there's other reasonable steps to help this "problem". To me, the distance debate isn't even an issue. Watching the young guns hit bombs is compelling to many people, myself included. 

 

If you do want to neuter distance a bit, I think several steps could make some difference.

 

1. Shortening the tees makes sense, but not as short as Faldo said. Possibly shift the limit from 4" to 2 1/2" or 3". 

 

2. Keep pro fairways moist and let them grow a little bit longer to reduce rollout. (I've heard older golfers mention that historically fairways weren't manicured as tightly and therefore drives didn't roll out like today) Growing out the rough and narrowing fairways should help as well. 

 

3. Legendary courses, will typically have the resources to extend the tees back further. The ones that don't have the space or money, will just have to host crazy low birdie-fests, I can think of worse things to watch. 

 

Treat "The Old Course" as a special case; they could have restricted flight balls, or enforce the use of persimmon woods. Who wouldn't want to see the pros use old school equipment every once in a while. 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

I disagree, but where is the harm in trying it for an event? This winter would have been ideal 

You don't really think they want a Tour event?

 

I have no insights into Sunningdale membership, lol, but hard to imagine them giving a rip about having fans descend upon them.

[Hawkeye77]

Based on a thread in Rule section looks like R&A and USGA have released/are releasing their latest on the distance project.

[dlygrisse]

4 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

Theres not many pro’s carrying a 3 wood 300. Rory is around 275. I think you may be right about a higher spinning ball, but doesn’t that make it harder to shape a ball sideways? 

My real point with the 3 wood, is that it could be optimized to go longer off the tee if necessary.  Currently a 3 wood probably goes about the same or a bit longer than a persimmon and balata driver combo, with similar tee height.  Spins less actually.  

 

More spin makes it easier to shape shots, but also makes mishits curve more as well.  The ball will tend to balloon especially into the wind.  They would have to finesse more shots instead of just blasting it.  

 

I remember when people used to hit a lot of knock down shots, where you would hit a 3/4 low shot that still spun.  Now the ball just kind of falls out of the air when you try to hit that.  

[golfer929]

4 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

Sunningdale is maybe the best uk example. The Old Course SA now extends onto a different course entirely and in average conditions still leaves at least 2/3 driveable par 4s with nowhere else left to extend tees.

Others I’ve played that have held full tour events but can’t anymore, Queens Bournemouth, St Pierre, Fulford, St Mellion(Nicklaus’ first uk design but already outdated), Lindrick, St Anne’s, Moor Park  etc etc. 

I am going to disagree on the Sunningdale example. The 2 lowest scores there were -19 in 1997 and 2004 in the Women's British open. They have been tearing up that course before the distance dilemma. The others you may have a fair point, but I have not researched it enough yet.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

Tee height feels very artificial, head size will do next to nothing unless you are doing something drastic like halving it, and even then I have doubts. I think nerfing the ball is the only change that makes sense. If you make it spin more they will just adjust equipment to make it spin less. Could be some spillover effects to forgiveness there idk. 

 

I think using Torrey as an example when talking distance doesn't make a ton of sense considering the course can play up to 7800 yards. The conditions that made it difficult seem specific to the time of year, I would expect the US Open to look a lot different, though it will still be difficult.