Why do I always hear that Pros hate a left miss

[Pepperturbo]

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

 

Not a good omen with Sunday coming up... 😛  Says this catholic.

 

[cardoustie]

this ties in somehow to why a shot around is tree is far easier to curve dramatically with a hook vs a fade

@MonteScheinblum would have a proper explanation

[mgoblue83]

High speed overdraws and hooks are completely unplayable because they have lower spin and will curve farther offline and run further into trouble once they hit the ground. High speed slices are generally hit higher and with more spin so they carry shorter, are less offline, and won't run as much once they land. 

 

Contrary to what a lot of people think:

Spin = forgiveness

 

Balls don't curve because they have more spin, they curve because the spin axis is tilted. 

[PracticeSwinger]

Ties in nicely with a question I always had... why isn't there more teachings of a powerfade / knucklefade (especially with the long clubs)?... directly related to the fact that the vast majority of amateurs are coming OTT and everthing that we see is on shallowing in the hitting zone, coming from the inside?...

 

A powerfade seems to me that it's the 'ideal' ball flight (i.e. less dangerous to be right of right with spin as others have mention, than left of the planet) - more consistent; lesser rate of closure in the hitting zone (compared to the draw pattern where you can double-cross) but still exiting hard and left with an aggressive pivot...  

[Barfolomew]

2 hours ago, Cwebb said:

A "straight to slight fade" will generally have a slower rate of face closing into impact.  Making it less of a handsy timing shot, which can lead to tighter dispersion.  Especially for those with a refined swing, good enough to play at the more elite levels

 

That's why I play the fade with a strong grip. Rotate much?....no thanks

[Krt22]

23 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Ties in nicely with a question I always had... why isn't there more teachings of a powerfade / knucklefade (especially with the long clubs)?... directly related to the fact that the vast majority of amateurs are coming OTT and everthing that we see is on shallowing in the hitting zone, coming from the inside?...

 

A powerfade seems to me that it's the 'ideal' ball flight (i.e. less dangerous to be right of right with spin as others have mention, than left of the planet) - more consistent; lesser rate of closure in the hitting zone (compared to the draw pattern where you can double-cross) but still exiting hard and left with an aggressive pivot...  

As it has been stated, there isnt any real link between ROC and shot shape/dispersion. If anything most faders hit a pull fade (vs push draw), so doesnt the face needs close more to get the desired start line?  Faders can just as easily hit a double cross or leave it open and hit a weak wipe

[PracticeSwinger]

5 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

As it has been stated, there isnt any real link between ROC and shot shape/dispersion. If anything most faders hit a pull fade (vs push draw), so doesnt the face needs close more to get the desired start line?  Faders can just as easily hit a double cross or leave it open and hit a weak wipe

Thanks for the explanation; always thought there was a correlation between ROC and dispersion (my assumption)...probably because a lot of instructions are on continued pivot to avoid the dreaded stall & flips / timing (inconsistent) issue... thanks again!

[MonteScheinblum]

16 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Thanks for the explanation; always thought there was a correlation between ROC and dispersion (my assumption)...probably because a lot of instructions are on continued pivot to avoid the dreaded stall & flips / timing (inconsistent) issue... thanks again!

There is a lot of study yet to be done.  There is no overall correlation between rate of closure and dispersion.  An individual lowering his rate of closure, may or may not improve dispersion.  Also, the “rolling of the club face”  equating to rate of closure can also be a misnomer.  It’s more directly related to the hands club relation in a down the line camera angle.  This with high club speeds tend to have a higher ROC.

 

So many variables and so little correlation at this point, puts us in a place that no conclusions can be drawn to lower is better.

 

The stall flip is more related to arms trailing, club being too open to some variable, etc.  So again, saying more body rotation is better, can also be a misnomer.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpC_iFHA3Dp/?igshid=1wnomn73izfsy

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[tthomasgolfer605]

Missing short and right into a green makes the short game 10 times easier.

[PracticeSwinger]

13 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

There is a lot of study yet to be done.  There is no overall correlation between rate of closure and dispersion.  An individual lowering his rate of closure, may or may not improve dispersion. 
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpC_iFHA3Dp/?igshid=1wnomn73izfsy

 

Having a masters in statistics - I absolutely love this; the proof that is (not the conclusion haha)... I'm searching now for the zodiac sign of the top50 pros... seriously, back to CastB practice!

[Pepperturbo]

1 hour ago, MtlJayMan said:

Ties in nicely with a question I always had... why isn't there more teachings of a powerfade / knucklefade (especially with the long clubs)?... directly related to the fact that the vast majority of amateurs are coming OTT and everthing that we see is on shallowing in the hitting zone, coming from the inside?...

 

A powerfade seems to me that it's the 'ideal' ball flight (i.e. less dangerous to be right of right with spin as others have mention, than left of the planet) - more consistent; lesser rate of closure in the hitting zone (compared to the draw pattern where you can double-cross) but still exiting hard and left with an aggressive pivot...  

Though there's merit to your question, I suspect the answer is tied to people having natural shot trajectories.  My buddy, no matter what he does, hits a baby draw.  When he tackles a fade, look out. LOL  I hit the ball straight and work the ball left and right.  If I try to hit either of them regularly, something doesn't click.  Other friends hit natural baby & power fades.  It comes down to changing what comes natural isn't always the best idea.  Unless of course, a person has a lot of time on their hands and doesn't play in amateur events.

 

Tom Lehman has drawn the ball all his professional career.  Some years back though, he got it in his head to switch to a fade.  After nearly two years of "where the hell is my ball going" misery, 😜 he gave up and went back to what he knew, a draw.  Others on tour have tried as well, and for the most part, ended the same.  

[Krt22]

18 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Missing short and right into a green makes the short game 10 times easier.

Maybe at a flat muni. Short right can be just as bad as long left at my home course, there is really only 1 or 2 holes where that is a good miss. Otherwise its a deep bunker with the green running away, water, wrong tier of the green, or a tight grainy/sloped collection area. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

Just now, Krt22 said:

Maybe at a flat muni. Short right can be just as bad as long left at my home course, there is really only 1 or 2 holes where that is a good miss. Otherwise its a deep bunker with the green running away, water, wrong tier of the green, or a tight grainy/sloped collection area. 

Maybe not at your course. In general, most greens are built with a back to front slope for drainage reasons and golf would be downright unfair if they sloped front to back.

[tthomasgolfer605]

@Krt22 You seem to go out of your way in an attempt to prove me wrong on a lot of posts. Are you that bored?

[b.mattay]

48 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Missing short and right into a green makes the short game 10 times easier.

😂😂

[Krt22]

9 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

@Krt22 You seem to go out of your way in an attempt to prove me wrong on a lot of posts. Are you that bored?

I would have responded exactly the same had someone else posted the same thing, it's nothing personal. Perhaps you just buy into (and thus repeat) many of the myths that still linger today, thus disproportionately spread more misinformation than other members. There are a handful of posters that seem to purposely give bad advice on here, you are one of them. Given the spirit of this forum is to help golfers get better, I have no issue calling it out.

 

The longer uphill putt being easier than a shorter downhill putt myth is just that, a myth.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Krt22

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

I would have responded exactly the same had someone else posted the same thing, it's nothing personal. Perhaps you just buy into (and thus repeat) many of the myths that still linger today, thus disproportionately spread more misinformation than other members. There are a handful of posters that seem to purposely give bad advice on here, you are one of them. Given the spirit of this forum is to help golfers get better, I have no issue calling it out.

 

The longer uphill putt being easier than a shorter downhill putt myth is just that, a myth.

Come play Olympia Field CC and miss long and left and you'd three putt every green. I'd fly you out here just to witness it. 

[goaliedad30]

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

 

 

You could have Nelly & Jessica Korda do cameos on the show ... and call it ... wait for it ... "Sister Act" ....

 

I'll be going now ... 🙂

 

[golfsticks]

22 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Maybe not at your course. In general, most greens are built with a back to front slope for drainage reasons and golf would be downright unfair if they sloped front to back.

 

Have no idea but would guess upward of 90% of single tier greens go back to front for drainage and holding shots, except for greens that follow natural terrain, or others and their circumstance for going front to back.     I have a friend who is a friend and plays with Tom Doak, I'll ask next time I see him what the percentage is and send it along.

[DaveMc82]

24 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Maybe not at your course. In general, most greens are built with a back to front slope for drainage reasons and golf would be downright unfair if they sloped front to back.

Come to England and play downland (sets of hills in the south) courses. You’ll be calling 60+% downright unfair. Short right will have you in the worst of the trouble 10/18 holes at the course where I’ll be playing April onwards. It used to be on the Open qualifying roster and only came off for commercial reasons. 
 

I really do believe that it’s very dependent on what courses you play. I get why for the tour golf we watch, a right miss if preferable. You can’t really apply it so generally outside of the courses on the tour roster though. If I took the 10 courses I would play most regularly it’s between evenly split to 7/3 in favour of left miss. The variance would be down to wind direction. It almost never stops blowing in England. 
 

 

[tthomasgolfer605]

24 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

😂😂

You disagree?

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, DaveMc82 said:

Come to England and play downland (sets of hills in the south) courses. You’ll be calling 60+% downright unfair. Short right will have you in the worst of the trouble 10/18 holes at the course where I’ll be playing April onwards. It used to be on the Open qualifying roster and only came off for commercial reasons. 
 

I really do believe that it’s very dependent on what courses you play. I get why for the tour golf we watch, a right miss if preferable. You can’t really apply it so generally outside of the courses on the tour roster though. If I took the 10 courses I would play most regularly it’s between evenly split to 7/3 in favour of left miss. The variance would be down to wind direction. It almost never stops blowing in England. 
 

 

I said in 'general'. There's always exceptions. A better miss is when you have an uphill chip, pitch, greenside bunker shot that's moving right to left. The roll out is more predictable. 

[Zitlow]

48 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Maybe not at your course. In general, most greens are built with a back to front slope for drainage reasons and golf would be downright unfair if they sloped front to back.

 

Just to add to this. It's better to miss a little right of the hole if you like right to left putts. 

[SNIPERBBB]

2 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

Just to add to this. It's better to miss a little right of the hole if you like right to left putts. 

unless you tend blow your chip past the hole 😛

[tthomasgolfer605]

22 minutes ago, golfsticks said:

 

Have no idea but would guess upward of 90% of single tier greens go back to front for drainage and holding shots, except for greens that follow natural terrain, or others and their circumstance for going front to back.     I have a friend who is a friend and plays with Tom Doak, I'll ask next time I see him what the percentage is and send it along.

I just looked at the stats from The 2016 US Open at Oakmont CC. The green slopes front to back and played as the hardest hole on the course at 4.45. Not surprised at all. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

unless you tend blow your chip past the hole 😛

Then you're faced with a downhill left to right putt. 

[Krt22]

32 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Come play Olympia Field CC and miss long and left and you'd three putt every green. I'd fly you out here just to witness it. 

Save your posturing and anecdotal data for someone else, I really have no interest in hearing any of that fluff. 

 

If long left leaves you a 3 putt on every hole hole, that means the flag is front of the green every hole, which just doesn't happen.  And even if that was the case, long left and short right are not the only two outcomes, any given person's dispersion pattern is a circle, not a diagonal line. Short-right is sometimes a good miss, very situationally though, but it's by no means the default "good" miss. Most high index players miss short right, if that was a good miss why aren't their scrambling stats better?

Edited February 18, 2021 by Krt22

[b.mattay]

15 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

You disagree?

Yes. The effect is minimal, there are many instances where this would be the worst miss. Doesn't seem to be a strong justification for choosing a fade over a draw.

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

Save your posturing and anecdotal data for someone else, I really have no interest in hearing any of that fluff. 

 

If long left leaves you a 3 putt on every hole hole, means the flag is front of the green every hole, which just doesn't happen.  And even if that was the case, long left and short right are not the only two outcomes, any given person's dispersion pattern is a circle, not a diagonal line. Short-right is sometimes a good miss, very situationally though, but it's by no means the default "good" miss. Most high index players miss short right, if that was a good miss why aren't their scrambling stats better?

This thread is why pros prefer a right miss. High index players don't belong in this discussion. I'm making a point that a long left miss is in general is much more difficult to recover from for a Professional golfer. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

Yes. The effect is minimal, there are many instances where this would be the worst miss. Doesn't seem to be a strong justification for choosing a fade over a draw.

Ok. Put 10 balls long and left of a green that has a back to front slope. Then put 10 balls a bit short and right. I'd bet you'd get up and down a lot more from short and right.