Rory working with Pete Cowen

[pinhigh27]

12 hours ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

 

Stats can be misleading and have to look at the whole picture. McIlroy's putting stats are poor because his ball striking is not great. Proximity to the hole, he ranks 158th and driving accuracy, he ranks 142nd. So, he has much longer putts and definitely has an affect on putting stats. If he was just stripping the ball and stuffing it all the time, his putting stats would be better. Right now his ball striking is the issue. 

If anything it’s the opposite where hitting it poorly gives you more opportunity to separate yourself. So no hitting it bad doesn’t mean your putting stats will suck. It is supposed to compare you to your peers from the same position. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by pinhigh27
Typo

[Pingfitz]

On 3/23/2021 at 10:10 AM, Ronnie Mundt said:

If you are a so-so putter and poor with a full wedge on your approach, it doesn’t matter how majestic you can hit your tee balls. You will struggle. That’s Rory’s problem. His driving and mid-long irons are world class; everything else is way too inconsistent.

What has happened from the time when he came out and won those majors and now? Did his injuries and equipment changes have something to do with it? When he was a titleist guy early on. 

[gvogel]

42 minutes ago, Pingfitz said:

What has happened from the time when he came out and won those majors and now? Did his injuries and equipment changes have something to do with it? When he was a titleist guy early on. 

It's easier to putt when you are a kid.  After you develop some scar tissue (brain memories), putting gets more difficult.  Maybe he should go arm-lock, like Kuchar, Webb and Bryson.

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

If anything it’s the opposite where hitting it poorly gives you more opportunity to separate yourself. So no hitting it bad doesn’t mean your putting stats will suck. It is supposed to compare you to your peers from the same position. 

Real question.   Your last line.  Peers.  Does it work that way for amateur players ?    As in if you buy the service etc is it using am stats or comparing to pros ?  If so where do the am stats come from ?  
 

the versions ( putting and approach )  I’ve used are the excel worksheets that use pro stats as the basis.  So you’re comparing to pros.   I’ve looked but not really seen a clear answer.  

[golfortennis]

34 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Real question.   Your last line.  Peers.  Does it work that way for amateur players ?    As in if you buy the service etc is it using am stats or comparing to pros ?  If so where do the am stats come from ?  
 

the versions ( putting and approach )  I’ve used are the excel worksheets that use pro stats as the basis.  So you’re comparing to pros.   I’ve looked but not really seen a clear answer.  

 

You would need stuff from like Arrcos probably.  Broadie had some data for "scratch" golfers.  BUt then the Arrcos data is only as good as the input.  I notice I have very few 9 foot putts in my stats.  BUt more likely I either think 8 or 10 feet when I put it down.  I don't step them off(maybe I should), so there is a certain bias.  

 

Depends on what you are looking for.  I said earlier in the thread we are more comparing against a "table" rather than peers.  As long you are showing improvement against the table, you're probably getting what you need from it. 

 

[Body_Visions]

On 3/27/2021 at 9:59 PM, DLBTide7 said:

Leadbetter’s students have won 15 majors, including each major at least twice. 
 

I get it that he is a not a GolfWRX favorite ....but there are not many teaching professionals with his historical track record. 

 

Love this post!!

 

Many have always said everyone that ever made money playing golf owed Palmer a percentage.

 

The same can be said for teachers and Leadbetter.  

 

He he teaches with a passion not many can match even after all these years, and still tries to learn every day, I am sure.

 

Rickie, and others don’t succeed with Harmon, it’s their fault.  Someone does the same with Leadbetter, they got Lead poisoning.  I have never understood that.

[DLBTide7]

14 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Price and Faldo.  There's 8.  But they were also 30 years ago.  And his track record has a lot more derailments than success for someone of his "reputation."

 

Again, though, Leadbetter seems a lot more like a "you will learn my swing" instructor, as opposed to a swing that works for the individual.    

I have watched Leadbetter work with touring pros.... he has a great eye and can immediately spot areas of trouble. IMO, he is not a “you will learn my swing” instructor. But that is my opinion from watching him fist hand. I am sure I am in the minority on GolfWrx. 

 

Leadbetter’s glory days are probably behind him (although working with P Reed recently returned him to the winner’s circle). And there are younger and more “dynamic” instructor’s in the game today. 
 

Leadbetter played an important role in the game and can count those 15 majors. 

[tsecor]

i love all the Golf WRX "therapists" who must have stayed at a Motel 6 this past week or something....these threads are pure comedy. 

[Oliver Klozoff]

Swing your own swing.   I wish Rory would see nobody.  There's no reason to chase what others identify as a perfect swing.  The perfect swing is the one you can make naturally under pressure.  Pro have grooved their own swings moreso than anyone with years of practice.   We aren't talking players that don't already have excellent impact postions.  At impact they are damn near perfect.  So Rory is gonna change his swing plane and this is gonna hold up under pressure?  I think not.  Tiger certainly did it, but the result was bad backs and physical issues.  And Tiger is above all in his ability to adapt to swing changes.   How many examples do we need of this before it sticks?  Here are the all time PGA Tour money winners.  They all have great swings.  But the details show they aren't perfect.  Furyk is the octopus in a phone booth thing.  Phil is narrow.  Singh's right hand comes off the club.  DJ is shut.  Kuchar swings around his knees.  Zach Johnson holds off everything.  Stricker has no wrist action.  David Toms swings too slow.  Bubba is all over the place.  Spieth has a weird release.  Even the perfect looking swings like Adam Scott and Jason Day have some minor technical issues causing blocks.  So while Furyk was doing his odd thing year after year, guys like Kaymer went awol.  Wholesale changes like swing path, release, etc.  I don't see those working well.   He'd be better having his dad make sure he is swinging his natural swing.  I mean, it only got him like 3-4 majors.

 

 

PLAYER	EARNINGS
1	Tiger Woods	$120,851,706
2	Phil Mickelson	$92,315,394
3	Jim Furyk	$71,479,894
4	Vijay Singh	$71,236,216
5	Dustin Johnson	$71,204,775
6	Adam Scott	$56,105,547
7	Rory McIlroy	$54,835,517
8	Justin Rose	$54,722,392
9	Sergio Garcia	$52,423,897
10	Matt Kuchar	$51,689,447
11	Ernie Els	$49,339,400
12	Jason Day	$48,617,030
13	Zach Johnson	$46,924,329
14	Bubba Watson	$46,400,008
15	Davis Love III	$44,944,195
16	Steve Stricker	$44,882,424
17	Justin Thomas	$42,920,860
18	Jordan Spieth	$42,729,466
19	Webb Simpson	$41,967,371
20	David Toms

 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Oliver Klozoff

[indianagolf2]

Won't make a difference. These changes seldom do....Phil left butch n didn't get better. Roy has been to Brad faxon n more putting..doesnt work. Need a mental coach

[woodriff]

More than anything I hope he’ll improve his wedge play. Used to be in the makable range for a long time. 

[tacklingdummy]

On 3/28/2021 at 8:30 AM, pinhigh27 said:

If anything it’s the opposite where hitting it poorly gives you more opportunity to separate yourself. So no hitting it bad doesn’t mean your putting stats will suck. It is supposed to compare you to your peers from the same position. 

 

It has been well documented by Rory and the golf media that his ball striking has been not good at all of late.  If putting was the issue, he wouldn't be searching for help from Cowen on his ball striking. He would be seeking out a putting coach. Nobody knows Rory's game better than Rory. 

[pinhigh27]

8 minutes ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

It has been well documented by Rory and the golf media that his ball striking has been not good at all of late.  If putting was the issue, he wouldn't be searching for help from Cowen on his ball striking. He would be seeking out a putting coach. Nobody knows Rory's game better than Rory. 

Sure but you said his putting stats are bad because his ballstriking is bad. That simply isn't true. They're supposed to be independent and if there is any relationship, it's in the opposite way you are implying. 

[tacklingdummy]

12 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

Sure but you said his putting stats are bad because his ballstriking is bad. That simply isn't true. They're supposed to be independent and if there is any relationship, it's in the opposite way you are implying. 

There are many stats that have some relation to other stats. For example, 3-putt avoidance is not a stat in relation to the field based on the same distance. Rory's 3-putt avoidance is 153rd. His proximity to the hole is 157th.  If his ball striking was better and he was knocking it stiff to the pin, the 3-putt avoidance stat would be much better and his ranking much higher. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by tacklingdummy

[pinhigh27]

29 minutes ago, tacklingdummy said:

There are many stats that have some relation to other stats. For example, 3-putt avoidance is not a stat in relation to the field based on the same distance. Rory's 3-putt avoidance is 153rd. His proximity to the hole is 157th.  If his ball striking was better and he was knocking it stiff to the pin, the 3-putt avoidance stat would be much better and his ranking much higher. 

Yes. Was referring to strokes gained stats. Those compare you relative to someone in the same position as you 

[GolfTurkey]

10 hours ago, Oliver Klozoff said:

Swing your own swing.   I wish Rory would see nobody.  There's no reason to chase what others identify as a perfect swing.  The perfect swing is the one you can make naturally under pressure.  Pro have grooved their own swings moreso than anyone with years of practice.   We aren't talking players that don't already have excellent impact postions.  At impact they are damn near perfect.  So Rory is gonna change his swing plane and this is gonna hold up under pressure?  I think not.  Tiger certainly did it, but the result was bad backs and physical issues.  And Tiger is above all in his ability to adapt to swing changes.   How many examples do we need of this before it sticks?  Here are the all time PGA Tour money winners.  They all have great swings.  But the details show they aren't perfect.  Furyk is the octopus in a phone booth thing.  Phil is narrow.  Singh's right hand comes off the club.  DJ is shut.  Kuchar swings around his knees.  Zach Johnson holds off everything.  Stricker has no wrist action.  David Toms swings too slow.  Bubba is all over the place.  Spieth has a weird release.  Even the perfect looking swings like Adam Scott and Jason Day have some minor technical issues causing blocks.  So while Furyk was doing his odd thing year after year, guys like Kaymer went awol.  Wholesale changes like swing path, release, etc.  I don't see those working well.   He'd be better having his dad make sure he is swinging his natural swing.  I mean, it only got him like 3-4 majors.

 

 

PLAYER	EARNINGS
1	Tiger Woods	$120,851,706
2	Phil Mickelson	$92,315,394
3	Jim Furyk	$71,479,894
4	Vijay Singh	$71,236,216
5	Dustin Johnson	$71,204,775
6	Adam Scott	$56,105,547
7	Rory McIlroy	$54,835,517
8	Justin Rose	$54,722,392
9	Sergio Garcia	$52,423,897
10	Matt Kuchar	$51,689,447
11	Ernie Els	$49,339,400
12	Jason Day	$48,617,030
13	Zach Johnson	$46,924,329
14	Bubba Watson	$46,400,008
15	Davis Love III	$44,944,195
16	Steve Stricker	$44,882,424
17	Justin Thomas	$42,920,860
18	Jordan Spieth	$42,729,466
19	Webb Simpson	$41,967,371
20	David Toms

 

 

 

AFAIK there's one guy on that list (Bubba) who didn't usually have a swing instructor.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

AFAIK there's one guy on that list (Bubba) who didn't usually have a swing instructor.

Ever!

[pinhigh27]

11 hours ago, Oliver Klozoff said:

Swing your own swing.   I wish Rory would see nobody.  There's no reason to chase what others identify as a perfect swing.  The perfect swing is the one you can make naturally under pressure.  Pro have grooved their own swings moreso than anyone with years of practice.   We aren't talking players that don't already have excellent impact postions.  At impact they are damn near perfect.  So Rory is gonna change his swing plane and this is gonna hold up under pressure?  I think not.  Tiger certainly did it, but the result was bad backs and physical issues.  And Tiger is above all in his ability to adapt to swing changes.   How many examples do we need of this before it sticks?  Here are the all time PGA Tour money winners.  They all have great swings.  But the details show they aren't perfect.  Furyk is the octopus in a phone booth thing.  Phil is narrow.  Singh's right hand comes off the club.  DJ is shut.  Kuchar swings around his knees.  Zach Johnson holds off everything.  Stricker has no wrist action.  David Toms swings too slow.  Bubba is all over the place.  Spieth has a weird release.  Even the perfect looking swings like Adam Scott and Jason Day have some minor technical issues causing blocks.  So while Furyk was doing his odd thing year after year, guys like Kaymer went awol.  Wholesale changes like swing path, release, etc.  I don't see those working well.   He'd be better having his dad make sure he is swinging his natural swing.  I mean, it only got him like 3-4 majors.

 

 

PLAYER	EARNINGS
1	Tiger Woods	$120,851,706
2	Phil Mickelson	$92,315,394
3	Jim Furyk	$71,479,894
4	Vijay Singh	$71,236,216
5	Dustin Johnson	$71,204,775
6	Adam Scott	$56,105,547
7	Rory McIlroy	$54,835,517
8	Justin Rose	$54,722,392
9	Sergio Garcia	$52,423,897
10	Matt Kuchar	$51,689,447
11	Ernie Els	$49,339,400
12	Jason Day	$48,617,030
13	Zach Johnson	$46,924,329
14	Bubba Watson	$46,400,008
15	Davis Love III	$44,944,195
16	Steve Stricker	$44,882,424
17	Justin Thomas	$42,920,860
18	Jordan Spieth	$42,729,466
19	Webb Simpson	$41,967,371
20	David Toms

 

 

Vast majority of tour players have worked with instructors their whole lives. Stricker has plenty of wrist action btw. 

 

No one says you have to be a model or a textbook swing, what do you think these guys swings would like if they never went to an instructor? You likely never would have heard of them. Obviously they want to be as good at golf as possible, do you think if they thought "swinging their own swing" was the way to go, that they would do it and not pay for a coach? The golf swing is a pretty unnatural thing like you essentially never see somebody pick up a golf club for the first time and make a functional pass at the ball. 

 

Rory has taken lessons his whole life. He has never "swung his own swing." 

 

Tigers injuries are multifactorial and more so likely related to his unorthodox training methods/ excessive long distance running. 

 

[Thayneil]

9 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

Sure but you said his putting stats are bad because his ballstriking is bad. That simply isn't true. They're supposed to be independent and if there is any relationship, it's in the opposite way you are implying. 

I read Rorys new irons have a more cenred cog over his older traditional heel cog irons.so essentially hes hitting to the heel.side of his new irons.

 

I heard hes back to.his old irons and px shafts now

[bladehunter]

On 3/28/2021 at 2:17 PM, golfortennis said:

 

You would need stuff from like Arrcos probably.  Broadie had some data for "scratch" golfers.  BUt then the Arrcos data is only as good as the input.  I notice I have very few 9 foot putts in my stats.  BUt more likely I either think 8 or 10 feet when I put it down.  I don't step them off(maybe I should), so there is a certain bias.  

 

Depends on what you are looking for.  I said earlier in the thread we are more comparing against a "table" rather than peers.  As long you are showing improvement against the table, you're probably getting what you need from it. 

 

So the tables on his app are based on ?  Tour data I assume ?  
 

 

and yes @Thayneil   The 730 horizontal cog is more middle to heel.  Him hitting more draws should prefer that.  Vs a mostly fader who is going to miss toe side most often.  I think the p7mb is just a longer blade heel go toe and that usually means a toe side favor for Hcog.  But it’s minor. I mean just off there middle  either way.  

[golfortennis]

11 hours ago, bladehunter said:

So the tables on his app are based on ?  Tour data I assume ?  
 

 

 

Well the ProSG is against pro data.  I'm not up on the recent updates but the Scratch data was apparently based on 100,000 shots by what I assume to be scratch players.  

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Well the ProSG is against pro data.  I'm not up on the recent updates but the Scratch data was apparently based on 100,000 shots by what I assume to be scratch players.  

 

 

 

Gotcha.  Wondered what the difference was.   
 

Just  began studying the app.  Definitely easier to use than the worksheets I’m used to. 

[indianagolf2]

Won't make a sifference..he's already the golfer he is and n will be 

[indianagolf2]

Rory has gone to many putting gurus and still doesn't I mprove. He has reached his v best. I'd suggest he is swinging too hard n fast and there goes his misses. 

[ej002]

On 3/23/2021 at 3:12 PM, mat562 said:

 

I remember that well.

 

It was two months before he won the US Open by a huge margin, the first of his four Majors.

 

LOL 

Back at it again