Rory working with Pete Cowen

[dlygrisse]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

True on some level.  But I empathize with that idea.  If you’re a guy who controls the ball. , could hit every fairway and green somedays , but can’t put it in the hole , you’d want them to count less too.  
 

the gripe is that ball control is a much greater skill really than putting.  Even though this game gives equal credit to both.  Plenty of good putters that are 20 handicaps.  Never seen a good  ballstriker that controls the ball ( correct sides of fairways , pin high on the green etc ) than wasn’t below a 5 cap.  

If it's a greater skill than putting then it shouldn't be too hard to get better at putting.  Personally I don't hit it long, so I think every course should be under 6000 yards.  Same reasoning right?  

 

I have watched some of Cowens stuff, no doubt he has had success, but he seems like a blow hard, I get the feeling he really likes the sound of his own voice.  

[DON SVO]

2 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

If it's a greater skill than putting then it shouldn't be too hard to get better at putting.  Personally I don't hit it long, so I think every course should be under 6000 yards.  Same reasoning right?  

 

I have watched some of Cowens stuff, no doubt he has had success, but he seems like a blow hard, I get the feeling he really likes the sound of his own voice.  

 

Ha, don't we all... welcome to GolfWRX, chief!

[bladehunter]

3 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

If it's a greater skill than putting then it shouldn't be too hard to get better at putting.  Personally I don't hit it long, so I think every course should be under 6000 yards.  Same reasoning right?  

 

I have watched some of Cowens stuff, no doubt he has had success, but he seems like a blow hard, I get the feeling he really likes the sound of his own voice.  

Right. We’re both same bias.  Just from different angles.  I get it. I do.  
 

the thing with putting is that it’s relative.  I could be a 18 handicap and never 3 putt and I’d be considered a putting god.  But at scratch or better level , never 3 putting won’t win squat.  It’s all about 1 putts.  
 

it’s like a told a guy recently who was giving me stick for griping about “not making anything “.  He says “ putting isn’t that hard “ and he lags up a 40 footer.   I said “ anybody can not 3 putt.  I’m griping about not 1 putting “. 
 

hitting it good is erased by not 1 putting.  

[dlygrisse]

6 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Right. We’re both same bias.  Just from different angles.  I get it. I do.  
 

the thing with putting is that it’s relative.  I could be a 18 handicap and never 3 putt and I’d be considered a putting god.  But at scratch or better level , never 3 putting won’t win squat.  It’s all about 1 putts.  
 

it’s like a told a guy recently who was giving me stick for griping about “not making anything “.  He says “ putting isn’t that hard “ and he lags up a 40 footer.   I said “ anybody can not 3 putt.  I’m griping about not 1 putting “. 
 

hitting it good is erased by not 1 putting.  

Sure, it's all relative.  Putting can be the great equalizer.  I guess I just find his comments lazy, go work on your putting and quit whining.  Do you want someone to give you an advantage just because you aren't good at a certain part of the game?  

 

I'll just leave it at, Tiger and Jack took putting very seriously.  You gotta get the biscuit in the basket or you might as well just go to Top Golf.  

Edited March 25, 2021 by dlygrisse

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Rank means almost nothing in those stats. They all make a high percentage and is based on half a year. Stricker and Poulter are behind Rory. Nuff said.

Thats why I pointed out that

 

Phil makes 71% of putts from ‘6

 

And Rory makes 59% from 6’

 

Webb is at 87%
 

So, thats a dismal situation for Rory

 

 

[MUNIGRIT]

Why are people saying Rory's Driving is still good? It has dropped off too. Regardless of some cherry picked pictures of swings of Rory's new swing he is still getting too flat(even his words) and underneath leading to balls in the pool left. It has been talked about by both Brandel and Killeen/Petey lately.

 

Just because you say you do/try to do something in a golf swing doesn't mean it happens. Ben Hogan great example of that and the feel isn't real cliche.

Edited March 25, 2021 by MUNIGRIT

[Golfnutgalen]

21 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Why are people saying Rory's Driving is still good? It has dropped off too. Regardless of some cherry picked pictures of swings of Rory's new swing he is still getting too flat(even his words) and underneath leading to balls in the pool left. It has been talked about by both Brandel and Killeen/Petey lately.

 

Just because you say you do/try to do something in a golf swing doesn't mean it happens. Ben Hogan great example of that and the feel isn't real cliche.

Thank you. That's what I noticed about Rory since his switch to the Sim 2 and new shafts. He's driving the ball far more offline regardless of his seemingly good strokes gained off the tee stats. Last year he was T119th in distance from the edge of fairway and this year he's 186th. His proximity to hole on approach shots has only dropped from 142nd to 158th. Still garbage compared to 2019 when he was 29th in that stat and won 4 times.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

Thats why I pointed out that

 

Phil makes 71% of putts from ‘6

 

And Rory makes 59% from 6’

 

Webb is at 87%
 

So, thats a dismal situation for Rory

 

 

Here is the way I look at it. No Rory is not a great putter. Never has been. He had a couple good putting years but not great. Aaron Baddeley is a great putter. Wanna swap careers?

 What matters most is total SG. Even in a bad year,2021 season so far. Rory is 27th in total SG which is also 28th in scoring average playing mostly the bigger events. 
 

Is that where we expect Rory to be? No.  And neither is he happy where he is.  That is why he is trying a new instructor to get him back on the track of being one of the best players on tour.

[tsecor]

Rory hired that guy as a swin instructor for when he hits it in everyones pool

[caseFSU]

3 minutes ago, tsecor said:

Rory hired that guy as a swin instructor for when he hits it in everyones pool

[bladehunter]

48 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

Sure, it's all relative.  Putting can be the great equalizer.  I guess I just find his comments lazy, go work on your putting and quit whining.  Do you want someone to give you an advantage just because you aren't good at a certain part of the game?  

 

I'll just leave it at, Tiger and Jack took putting very seriously.  You gotta get the biscuit in the basket or you might as well just go to Top Golf.  

Yep. I don’t disagree,   But those two are the only dead eye putters I can name who are also elite at the long game.  Very rare.  Many more Ernie els , Sergio ,  finau, Scott , Langer ,  or the opposite- Kisner , Na , webb Simpson , Spieth and on and on ..... than people who can do both.   Putting is just the least athletic requirement on the game.  But I think it’s works like a seesaw.   The faster twitch muscles and more strength you have. The harder it is to temper that down to a 8 foot putt.  40 foyers aren’t hard to lag ,   3 footers aren’t hard. It’s making the 5-12s that’s hard.  There seems to be a correlation between fast guys and being balky putters. 

 

1 hour ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Why are people saying Rory's Driving is still good? It has dropped off too. Regardless of some cherry picked pictures of swings of Rory's new swing he is still getting too flat(even his words) and underneath leading to balls in the pool left. It has been talked about by both Brandel and Killeen/Petey lately.

 

Just because you say you do/try to do something in a golf swing doesn't mean it happens. Ben Hogan great example of that and the feel isn't real cliche.

That started when he swappped shafts to ventus and to the sim 2.  He’s been trying to hit it farther.  He was good until sim2. Much like DJ.  

[bladehunter]

19 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Here is the way I look at it. No Rory is not a great putter. Never has been. He had a couple good putting years but not great. Aaron Baddeley is a great putter. Wanna swap careers?

 What matters most is total SG. Even in a bad year,2021 season so far. Rory is 27th in total SG which is also 28th in scoring average playing mostly the bigger events. 
 

Is that where we expect Rory to be? No.  And neither is he happy where he is.  That is why he is trying a new instructor to get him back on the track of being one of the best players on tour.

Anybody else want to stab their ears out when they hear “ strokes gained “.  Not shooting this at you boss.  But the term.  “ gained”.  I think it’s gained with putter and “not lost “ with other clubs.  Unless you hole it or knock it stiff with a long club.  
 

it’s just one of those catch phrases that for some reason grabs me.  
 

you can be +4 strokes gained for the week with driver , and 3 putt 5 times a round and never actually gain a stroke.  You don’t gain anything until it’s holed. Right ?  
 

just wish he’d named it something else.  

Edited March 25, 2021 by bladehunter

[bscinstnct]

26 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Here is the way I look at it. No Rory is not a great putter. Never has been. He had a couple good putting years but not great. Aaron Baddeley is a great putter. Wanna swap careers?

 What matters most is total SG. Even in a bad year,2021 season so far. Rory is 27th in total SG which is also 28th in scoring average playing mostly the bigger events. 
 

Is that where we expect Rory to be? No.  And neither is he happy where he is.  That is why he is trying a new instructor to get him back on the track of being one of the best players on tour.

Shil, what’s odd about Rory is that, while he’s not a “great” putter, he does have years, like 2019, where he was be 24th in SG putting and win 4 times. 

But the next year, 2020, he’s 122nd with negative SG. 
Or 2017 where he was 150th and negative SG putting. 
 

 

Clearly with his ballstriking, he just needs to be good and nowhere near great putting to tear it up.

 

But it’s not like he is always very badly ranked putter and he still wins a lot. 

[dlygrisse]

11 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Shil, what’s odd about Rory is that, while he’s not a “great” putter, he does have years, like 2019, where he was be 24th in SG putting and win 4 times. 

But the next year, 2020, he’s 122nd with negative SG. 
Or 2017 where he was 150th and negative SG putting. 
 

 

Clearly with his ballstriking, he just needs to be good and nowhere near great putting to tear it up.

 

But it’s not like he is always very badly ranked putter and he still wins a lot. 

Iike I said earlier, I think his putting feeds off his ball striking.  Let's just say Rory's putting is inconsistent, and his ball striking this year is going the wrong direction.  He is clearly "lost" as he said himself in an interview.  

[Shilgy]

33 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Anybody else want to stab their ears out when they hear “ strokes gained “.  Not shooting this at you boss.  But the term.  “ gained”.  I think it’s gained with putter and “not lost “ with other clubs.  Unless you hole it or knock it stiff with a long club.  
 

it’s just one of those catch phrases that for some reason grabs me.  
 

you can be +4 strokes gained for the week with driver , and 3 putt 5 times a round and never actually gain a stroke.  You don’t gain anything until it’s holed. Right ?  
 

just wish he’d named it something else.  

Might be why I also referenced scoring average. Funny how the two closely correlate.  But that is why it’s called strokes gained. It is a method, primarily for the pros, to measure individual parts of their game to the other pros. It is not a perfect correlation because guys play different events but it accurately measures how many strokes a player is gaining or losing on the field and exactly where they gain or lose the most. Way more accurate than your old school approach of “he missed a putt he should have made so lost a stroke there.”

[Shilgy]

Edited to add...based on your comment of strokes are lost with the clubs and only gained with the putter.

 

If a Rory or Bryson can drive the green on a par 5 across the lake for example. 😀 Just stiffs it with his driver to 3 feet. Then two putts for eagle....did he gain a stroke on the field with his driver, aka “off the tee”, or did he gain with his eagle putt made? 
That would be an extreme example but in a nutshell is how it works.

[bscinstnct]

33 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

Iike I said earlier, I think his putting feeds off his ball striking.  Let's just say Rory's putting is inconsistent, and his ball striking this year is going the wrong direction.  He is clearly "lost" as he said himself in an interview.  

His ball striking as far as both SG off the tee and SG tee to green was still elite level in 2017, 2018, and 2020.  It’s was crazy good in 2019 but the huge difference is that he was 24th SG putting in 2019 but 122nd/149th in 2020/2017.

 

This year.. let’s just hope he turns things in the right direction. 

[bladehunter]

30 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Edited to add...based on your comment of strokes are lost with the clubs and only gained with the putter.

 

If a Rory or Bryson can drive the green on a par 5 across the lake for example. 😀 Just stiffs it with his driver to 3 feet. Then two putts for eagle....did he gain a stroke on the field with his driver, aka “off the tee”, or did he gain with his eagle putt made? 
That would be an extreme example but in a nutshell is how it works.

I understand the premise.  I do.  Although I’m constantly told I don’t get it.  I do. I just don’t like it. Lol.  
 

in my opinion- 

 

it’s still gained with the 2 putt.  The driver simply didn’t go afoul and lose a shot.  If he 4 putts he doesn’t gain a stroke with driver. Right ? 
 

 

i get the idea to keep the stat for comparison.  And I get that you could call it “ driving efficiency “ instead and not change a thing , and I’d not care.  Truly.  It’s just that it always puts me off.  Suppose you’re DJ.   And you’re strokes gained stat with driver is plus whatever.  And you’re battling putting yips.  In my mind it would  drive me nuts to talk about gaining shots while I threw shots away.  
 

anyway.  It doesn’t matter. I’m nobody.  Lol.  

Edited March 25, 2021 by bladehunter

[b.helts]

If I ever miss a 3 footer for albatross I'm going to go Spaniard on something or someone.

[Shilgy]

27 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I understand the premise.  I do.  Although I’m constantly told I don’t get it.  I do. I just don’t like it. Lol.  
 

in my opinion- 

 

it’s still gained with the 2 putt.  The driver simply didn’t go afoul and lose a shot.  If he 4 putts he doesn’t gain a stroke with driver. Right ? 
 

 

i get the idea to keep the stat for comparison.  And I get that you could call it “ driving efficiency “ instead and not change a thing , and I’d not care.  Truly.  It’s just that it always puts me off.  Suppose you’re DJ.   And you’re strokes gained stat with driver is plus whatever.  And you’re battling putting yips.  In my mind it would  drive me nuts to talk about gaining shots while I threw shots away.  
 

anyway.  It doesn’t matter. I’m nobody.  Lol.  

But it takes everyone else two strokes, or likely three or four, to get to where that great tee shot finished. How is that not gaining strokes on the field?

It is a comparison to their peers don’t forget. A way to measure various aspects of the game. 
 

And he lost almost a stroke with that two putt! 
 

Imagine if we read this story.

Jack does great vehicle rebuilds. Absolutely the best in the Carolinas. But I go to XYZ rebuilders because their finish quality looks better. Might not be as good a vehicle as Jack”s  but looks a lot better.

 

Wouldnt Jack want to know where he is better than his competition and where he falls short?

[bladehunter]

23 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

But it takes everyone else two strokes, or likely three or four, to get to where that great tee shot finished. How is that not gaining strokes on the field?

It is a comparison to their peers don’t forget. A way to measure various aspects of the game. 
 

And he lost almost a stroke with that two putt! 
 

Imagine if we read this story.

Jack does great vehicle rebuilds. Absolutely the best in the Carolinas. But I go to XYZ rebuilders because their finish quality looks better. Might not be as good a vehicle as Jack”s  but looks a lot better.

 

Wouldnt Jack want to know where he is better than his competition and where he falls short?

Like I said. I get the stat.  But it’s not final until you make the putt.  That’s when the deal is sealed on gaining a stroke/s .  
 

it’s my own mental block.  No doubt.  I just hate the term. It’s not the stat.    Change it to “ efficiency “ snd I wouldn’t cringe thinking about it.  

[golfortennis]

51 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Like I said. I get the stat.  But it’s not final until you make the putt.  That’s when the deal is sealed on gaining a stroke/s .  
 

it’s my own mental block.  No doubt.  I just hate the term. It’s not the stat.    Change it to “ efficiency “ snd I wouldn’t cringe thinking about it.  

 

Can't you see, whoa, can't you see
What that statname, Lord, she been doin' to me
Can't you see, can't you see
What that statname, she been doin' to me

[pinhigh27]

5 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Right. We’re both same bias.  Just from different angles.  I get it. I do.  
 

the thing with putting is that it’s relative.  I could be a 18 handicap and never 3 putt and I’d be considered a putting god.  But at scratch or better level , never 3 putting won’t win squat.  It’s all about 1 putts.  
 

it’s like a told a guy recently who was giving me stick for griping about “not making anything “.  He says “ putting isn’t that hard “ and he lags up a 40 footer.   I said “ anybody can not 3 putt.  I’m griping about not 1 putting “. 
 

hitting it good is erased by not 1 putting.  

This is wrong . Tour pros 3 putt 10% of the time from 40 feet. You can absolutely save shots by not 3 putting at all levels of skill.  There are literally no 18 handicaps in the world who never 3 putt 

Edited March 25, 2021 by pinhigh27

[Hawkeye77]

22 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

Can't you see, whoa, can't you see
What that statname, Lord, she been doin' to me
Can't you see, can't you see
What that statname, she been doin' to me

@bladehunter gonna have you tied to the whipping post!

 

Southern Rock reference folks, I know who wrote the song he "adjusted".

Edited March 25, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[golfortennis]

6 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

@bladehunter gonna have you tied to the whipping post!

 

Southern Rock reference folks, I know who wrote the song he "adjusted".

 

We had a good discussion about that band some time ago.  Believe they are local to him.  Was very much intentional.  🙂

Edited March 25, 2021 by golfortennis

[pinhigh27]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Anybody else want to stab their ears out when they hear “ strokes gained “.  Not shooting this at you boss.  But the term.  “ gained”.  I think it’s gained with putter and “not lost “ with other clubs.  Unless you hole it or knock it stiff with a long club.  
 

it’s just one of those catch phrases that for some reason grabs me.  
 

you can be +4 strokes gained for the week with driver , and 3 putt 5 times a round and never actually gain a stroke.  You don’t gain anything until it’s holed. Right ?  
 

just wish he’d named it something else.  

It’s gained relative to the average shot from that position , very basic. 

 

this weird anti stats hard on you have is so perplexing especially when it explains why you personally struggle to reduce shots from your game 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, golfortennis said:

 

Can't you see, whoa, can't you see
What that statname, Lord, she been doin' to me
Can't you see, can't you see
What that statname, she been doin' to me

😂Apt song choice. The Marshall tucker boys are local to me.  See Doug Gray almost everyday around  town.  

[Obee]

4 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Anybody else want to stab their ears out when they hear “ strokes gained “.  Not shooting this at you boss.  But the term.  “ gained”.  I think it’s gained with putter and “not lost “ with other clubs.  Unless you hole it or knock it stiff with a long club.  
 

it’s just one of those catch phrases that for some reason grabs me.  
 

you can be +4 strokes gained for the week with driver , and 3 putt 5 times a round and never actually gain a stroke.  You don’t gain anything until it’s holed. Right ?

 

What difference does it make? I don't get why you have such a hard time with this, bud.

[bladehunter]

55 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

We had a good discussion about that band some time ago.  Believe they are local to him.  Was very much intentional.  🙂

Oh yea.  Duh. I already told you that.  Well. Still - well played !  

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, Obee said:

 

What difference does it make? I don't get why you have such a hard time with this, bud.

It’s doesnt.  I’ll try to ignore it either way.  For everytime I mention it , I manage to not mention it 100 times.  I loathe it.  😂. 
 

But seriously.  Some folks are stat people and some are not.  I’m extremely -not.  In my opinion it’s the squasher of all things artistic. Of all things good about the game.  Or life in general.  I think some folks need them as security blankets and  some of us actually play worse with them in our heads. Neither mental illness is wrong or right.  Just different ends of the spectrum.  

 

Id love to know why it riles so many up when I mention it ?    It’s not as if it’s a pillar of the game.   And lastly.  I’ve had these convos privately.  I’m not the only one. I’m just the only one who will say it out loud.