Should Arm Lock be made illegal?

[ltom]

On 4/16/2021 at 3:52 PM, pinhigh27 said:

I fundamentally disagree with  how anchoring is defined. So it's anchoring if you make the club touch your chest, but if you lock it to your arm, that is not anchoring? 

 

I don't know that it has a significant advantage but clearly you're essentially taking the locked wrist out of play and that sure seems like "anchoring" to me. So holding your forearm against your body is anchoring, but locking the club to your forearm isn't? 

 

I think we will probably see more people switch over time. Putting is pretty personal and I doubt it's going to make you make like 2x as many putts or else half the tour would switch next week. But there probably is an advantage. 

Seems like anchoring to me too. They won't prohibit it until juniors start using it.

[dlygrisse]

Personally I think it's and inferior way to putt, so no.  Swinging a putter with the hands and arms on the correct plane gives much better distance control and face control.  I can't imagine why anyone would putt this way unless they just had a bad case of the yips and this was their only solution that seemed to work.  Watching Will Zalatorius try to putt this way gives me the heeby jeebies, great ball striker but his putting will always hold him back.  

[bladehunter]

33 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

Personally I think it's and inferior way to putt, so no.  Swinging a putter with the hands and arms on the correct plane gives much better distance control and face control.  I can't imagine why anyone would putt this way unless they just had a bad case of the yips and this was their only solution that seemed to work.  Watching Will Zalatorius try to putt this way gives me the heeby jeebies, great ball striker but his putting will always hold him back.  

Agree with this.  As a guy who’s tried it several times.  It’s not a help to me. It’s like the claw.  It only helps the truly lost.  Pains me to see Colin using the claw too.  It’s a bad road to go down as a kid.  

[dlygrisse]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Agree with this.  As a guy who’s tried it several times.  It’s not a help to me. It’s like the claw.  It only helps the truly lost.  Pains me to see Colin using the claw too.  It’s a bad road to go down as a kid.  

yep, I didn't realize how by Colin's stroke was until recently.  He is probably the best iron player on tour, I really like his game tee to green, but his short game will always hold him back.  Hey, any young guys out there reading this, PRACTICE YOUR SHORT GAME AND PUTTING!!!!  It's why Tiger and Jack were the greatest, they could always make putts when needed.  And if you can really use a wedge you always have a chance to break par no matter how bad your ball striking may be that day.  

[bladehunter]

32 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

yep, I didn't realize how by Colin's stroke was until recently.  He is probably the best iron player on tour, I really like his game tee to green, but his short game will always hold him back.  Hey, any young guys out there reading this, PRACTICE YOUR SHORT GAME AND PUTTING!!!!  It's why Tiger and Jack were the greatest, they could always make putts when needed.  And if you can really use a wedge you always have a chance to break par no matter how bad your ball striking may be that day.  

1000 percent this ^.   Yes !    

[Pepperturbo]

My answer was "YES."  I am from the old school of Golf and live to be challenged.  Makes life, golf and putting much more gratifying.   

 

However, there are a lot of people that tackle golf and other sports, and yammer about this or that rule in hopes eventually it's made easier.  We have people that whine over divots in the fairway.  Look at how many Broomstick putter users whined and had their lives come to an abrupt end when that rule changed.  Note how many people whined when the groove rule was changed, and many claimed spin was behind their reasoning, yet grooves are not on the face for spin, per se. 

 

I say, when any given sport is too challenging for a person's soul, there's always HORSE in the driveway and electric bikes.  LOL  That type of person doesn't put in the work to excel anyway.  It's easier to want the Rules watered down, and course design made easier; tee colors changed, so he doesn't feel singled out; but ALL those are for another discussion. 😛

 

[Mr. Bean]

On 4/16/2021 at 10:52 PM, pinhigh27 said:

I fundamentally disagree with  how anchoring is defined. So it's anchoring if you make the club touch your chest, but if you lock it to your arm, that is not anchoring? 

 

I don't know that it has a significant advantage but clearly you're essentially taking the locked wrist out of play and that sure seems like "anchoring" to me. So holding your forearm against your body is anchoring, but locking the club to your forearm isn't? 

 

I think we will probably see more people switch over time. Putting is pretty personal and I doubt it's going to make you make like 2x as many putts or else half the tour would switch next week. But there probably is an advantage. 

 

Oh my, you are soooo lost...

 

Anchoring means you have a point where the butt end of your club is attached to your body in such a way that it does not move neither horizontally nor vertically when you make the stroke. 

 

As someone in this thread already wrote forbidding arm lock would mean you could not have your hands overlapping each other when putting or support your hands together on the grip.

 

Wake up, my man.

[jmkenn0]

23 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Oh my, you are soooo lost...

 

Anchoring means you have a point where the butt end of your club is attached to your body in such a way that it does not move neither horizontally nor vertically when you make the stroke. 

 

As someone in this thread already wrote forbidding arm lock would mean you could not have your hands overlapping each other when putting or support your hands together on the grip.

 

Wake up, my man.

 

wait, how does forbidding the arm lock prevent you from overlapping?  Its an easy rule, you can only grip the club with your hands or fingers?  I've never tried it, and I really don't want a putter that long, but I definitely see the benefit if you are a left hand low/shoulder rock putter - you absolutely would remove any wrist action with the arm lock.

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, jmkenn0 said:

 

wait, how does forbidding the arm lock prevent you from overlapping?  Its an easy rule, you can only grip the club with your hands or fingers?  I've never tried it, and I really don't want a putter that long, but I definitely see the benefit if you are a left hand low/shoulder rock putter - you absolutely would remove any wrist action with the arm lock.

 

Oh my... if you need an arm-lock to prevent your wrists from moving while making the putting stroke you definitively need to see a pro.

[Shilgy]

With with esteemed assistance from @Mr. Beanmany of you either do not get it or are being purposely obtuse.

 

Anchored is not the act or pressing it against the forearm....anchored is not the act of pressing it against your forearm....

Do some need that said a few more times? Anchored is when the butt end of the putter is in a fixed position creating a pure pendulum type of stroke .  Picture that pendulum on a grandfather clock.

Armlock , for all the protests, is not even locked for crying out loud.  The grip is only held against the forearm by maintaining the forward press. You could absolutely flip when using that style. Look at Kuchar. Why do you think he is locking it against the other(rear) forearm?  Probably because he was flipping. Point being the hands and wrists are still freely moving in the stroke.

 

 

 

[CaseyC]

In arm lock putting, it is not legal to have the shaft of the putter shaft extend beyond the elbow.    That joint can't be restricted.   The question then is why can the putter shaft restrict the wrist joint by extending beyond the wrist?

 

Has there been an explanation for this from the ruling bodies?

 

Right now, I am neither pro or con on this method.  

[Halebopp]

33 minutes ago, CaseyC said:

In arm lock putting, it is not legal to have the shaft of the putter shaft extend beyond the elbow.    That joint can't be restricted.   The question then is why can the putter shaft restrict the wrist joint by extending beyond the wrist?

 

Has there been an explanation for this from the ruling bodies?

 

Right now, I am neither pro or con on this method.  

 

“Having considered all of the input that we received, both before and after the proposed Rule was announced, our best judgment is that Rule 14-1b is necessary to preserve one of the important traditions and challenges of the game – that the player freely swing the entire club,” said USGA President Glen D. Nager. “The new Rule upholds the essential nature of the traditional method of stroke and eliminates the possible advantage that anchoring provides, ensuring that players of all skill levels face the same challenge inherent in the game of golf.”

 

https://www.randa.org/News/2013/05/Anchoring-Statement

[hollabachgt]

During the golf swing all parts of the club should be in motion. With belly putting and long putting this was never true, as one point of the putter is stationary at all times, the anchor point. As long as the whole of the putter is moving during the arm lock swing the swing and technique is legal.

 

Whereas the anchored butt end of the putter against a players body has the potential to assist the player in controlling the putter during a poor stroke, the arm lock technique can not apply the same level of assistance.

Edited April 23, 2021 by hollabachgt

[Dpavs]

It kind of feels like you should either be allowed to anchor the club to body parts or not so IMO, they should either get rid of 10.1b or the exception tied to it.

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Dpavs said:

It kind of feels like you should either be allowed to anchor the club to body parts or not so IMO, they should either get rid of 10.1b or the exception tied to it.

 

While it might "kind of feel" like that to you and others, that's not how it "feels" to the R&A and USGA.

 

The excellent post above yours by hollabachgt describes the "feel" sought by the ruling bodies.

[Dpavs]

4 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

While it might "kind of feel" like that to you and others, that's not how it "feels" to the R&A and USGA.

 

The excellent post above yours by hollabachgt describes the "feel" sought by the ruling bodies.

 

I understand the spirit of why the rule was created and what hollabachgt said.  I think though that it is doubtful that even with anchoring there are any truly stationary points of a club. It is more likely that there is still some movement, even if ever so slight, of all points of the club. All that said, I understand that what the governing bodies probably referenced in adopting the rule was a reasonably observable motion and not a true anchored point in space.

 

As for the arm lock not allowing the same level of assistance as belly or chest anchoring, absent some very extensive testing (which I have never seen or am aware of) there is no empirical data which supports such a claim.  I can tell you from my own experience and observation however that using an arm lock style does provide a substantial amount of assistance in keeping the hands, wrists and arms very quiet during the putting stroke.

 

In any case, regardless of how the ruling bodies "feel", while we have to abide by the rules, we do not have to like or abstain from having opinions about them. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Dpavs

[phil75070]

On 4/21/2021 at 11:35 PM, Shilgy said:

Anchored is when the butt end of the putter is in a fixed position creating a pure pendulum type of stroke

That is the way the USGA defines it. Doesn't mean that it isn't "anchored" as to anchor something is to secure firmly. By pressing and keeping the grip against the forearm that is exactly what one is doing. I think one does away with all or allows all forms of "anchoring".

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, phil75070 said:

That is the way the USGA defines it. Doesn't mean that it isn't "anchored" as to anchor something is to secure firmly. By pressing and keeping the grip against the forearm that is exactly what one is doing. I think one does away with all or allows all forms of "anchoring".

 

Using your "logic" the grip of any club using more than two fingers of a single hand should be forbidden. 🙄

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, phil75070 said:

That is the way the USGA defines it. Doesn't mean that it isn't "anchored" as to anchor something is to secure firmly. By pressing and keeping the grip against the forearm that is exactly what one is doing. I think one does away with all or allows all forms of "anchoring".

 

Maybe you should read the Rules of Golf instead of a dictionary.

[phil75070]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Maybe you should read the Rules of Golf instead of a dictionary.

I said that that is the way the USGA defines anchoring, thus "illegal" while playing golf. 

Edited April 25, 2021 by phil75070

[phil75070]

7 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Using your "logic" the grip of any club using more than two fingers of a single hand should be forbidden. 🙄

That is a ridiculous extension of the point I was making.

Edited April 25, 2021 by phil75070

[Mr. Bean]

18 minutes ago, phil75070 said:

I said that that is the way the USGA defines anchoring, thus "illegal" while playing golf. 

 

No, that is not what you said. You said and I quote: '.. to anchor something is to secure firmly. ' That is not from USGA but from a dictionary.

[Mr. Bean]

19 minutes ago, phil75070 said:

That is a ridiculous extension of the point I was making.

 

You made your point extremely poorly.

[sui generis]

26 minutes ago, phil75070 said:

That is a ridiculous extension of the point I was making.

 

Here's what R10.1b says:

 

Anchoring the Club, In making a stroke, the player must not anchor the club, either:

 

Directly, by holding the club or a gripping hand against any part of the body (except that the player may hold the club or a gripping hand against a hand or forearm), or 

 

Indirectly, through use of an “anchor point,” by holding a forearm against any part of the body to use a gripping hand as a stable point around which the other hand may swing the club.

 

If the player’s club, gripping hand or forearm merely touches his or her body or clothing during the stroke, without being held against the body, there is no breach of this Rule.

 

For the purposes of this Rule, “forearm” means the part of the arm below the elbow joint and includes the wrist.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=10&subrulenum=1

 

You're the one who went fishing in the dictionary for something to "anchor" your unsupportable position. 🙂

 

Now, there might be an argument for a TV blackout of DeChambeau's ugly, ugly constipated arm lock posture. "Quick, change the channel, the children are watching."

 

 

[phil75070]

14 hours ago, sui generis said:

Directly, by holding the club or a gripping hand against any part of the body (except that the player may hold the club or a gripping hand against a hand or forearm), or 

The USGA chose to use the word "anchoring", not me. How words are used and defined is how we effectively communicate. Doesn't the fact that the Rules themselves use the word "except" acknowledge that that this is a form of anchoring for which they make an exception?

 

I just happen to be of the opinion that either all forms of anchoring should be allowed or forbidden without exception.

[Shilgy]

13 hours ago, phil75070 said:

The USGA chose to use the word "anchoring", not me. How words are used and defined is how we effectively communicate. Doesn't the fact that the Rules themselves use the word "except" acknowledge that that this is a form of anchoring for which they make an exception?

 

I just happen to be of the opinion that either all forms of anchoring should be allowed or forbidden without exception.

The other points of anchor would be fixed. The forearm is moving during the stroke. Hence...in golf definition....not anchored. 

[Augster]

On 4/21/2021 at 11:35 PM, Shilgy said:

With with esteemed assistance from @Mr. Beanmany of you either do not get it or are being purposely obtuse.

 

Anchored is not the act or pressing it against the forearm....anchored is not the act of pressing it against your forearm....

Do some need that said a few more times? Anchored is when the butt end of the putter is in a fixed position creating a pure pendulum type of stroke .  Picture that pendulum on a grandfather clock.

Armlock , for all the protests, is not even locked for crying out loud.  The grip is only held against the forearm by maintaining the forward press. You could absolutely flip when using that style. Look at Kuchar. Why do you think he is locking it against the other(rear) forearm?  Probably because he was flipping. Point being the hands and wrists are still freely moving in the stroke.

 

 

 

Can we please continue posting what Shilgy is saying until it sinks in?

 

Anchored is not the act of pressing it against your forearm. 
 

The ruling bodies want the entire club freely swung. An anchored club swings around an anchor point on the body. 
 

In arm lock putting, is the butt end moving with the stroke, or not moving and held in place against the body? 
 

It runs up the forearm, and the entire arm is in motion. 

Please let this sink in. 

 

[b.helts]

3 minutes ago, Augster said:

Can we please continue posting what Shilgy is saying until it sinks in?

 

Anchored is not the act of pressing it against your forearm. 
 

The ruling bodies want the entire club freely swung. An anchored club swings around an anchor point on the body. 
 

In arm lock putting, is the butt end moving with the stroke, or not moving and held in place against the body? 
 

It runs up the forearm, and the entire arm is in motion. 

Please let this sink in. 

 

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that armlock is "anchoring" as it's defined by the ruling bodies. I mean, it's explicitly defined as not anchoring.

 

So instead of a semantic arguing of what anchoring is or isn't (it's definition is well known and easily referenced) the discussion should be whether armlock should be added to the disallowed portion of Stroke in the rule book.  Straddling your line and putting croquet style isn't anchoring but is forbidden. Should armlock be as well?

 

That's the question. I like Shilgy, but his argument is circular. He's saying Armlock is legal because it's not anchoring because the USGA defines it as not anchoring.

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, b.helts said:

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that armlock is "anchoring" as it's defined by the ruling bodies. I mean, it's explicitly defined as not anchoring.

 

So instead of a semantic arguing of what anchoring is or isn't (it's definition is well known and easily referenced) the discussion should be whether armlock should be added to the disallowed portion of Stroke in the rule book.  Straddling your line and putting croquet style isn't anchoring but is forbidden. Should armlock be as well?

 

That's the question. I like Shilgy, but his argument is circular. He's saying Armlock is legal because it's not anchoring because the USGA defines it as not anchoring.

As  @Augster just noted it’s allowed because the full club is free swinging. Armlock is just a grip that some do not seem to like.

 

My bet is if it had originally been named the “forearm press” there would be no problems. Folks hear “lock” and they think anchored.

[Dpavs]

14 hours ago, b.helts said:

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that armlock is "anchoring" as it's defined by the ruling bodies. I mean, it's explicitly defined as not anchoring.

 

So instead of a semantic arguing of what anchoring is or isn't (it's definition is well known and easily referenced) the discussion should be whether armlock should be added to the disallowed portion of Stroke in the rule book.  Straddling your line and putting croquet style isn't anchoring but is forbidden. Should armlock be as well?

 

That's the question. I like Shilgy, but his argument is circular. He's saying Armlock is legal because it's not anchoring because the USGA defines it as not anchoring.

 

While I'm not convinced that the arm lock style of gripping a club is not "anchoring" per se... it is abundantly clear is that it is an exception to the rule and is allowed.

 

b. Anchoring the Club

In making a stroke, the player must not anchor the club, either:

• Directly, by holding the club or a gripping hand against any part of the body (except that the player may hold the club or a gripping hand against a hand or forearm)...

 

Update- Let me clarify to avoid confusion about what I am saying here. Using the arm lock style is technically a form of "anchoring a club"... "against any part of the body" as defined by the rule but it is also clearly noted and excepted by the rule so it is in essence a permissible form of anchoring a club. In short, it is anchoring but it is an allowed form of anchoring.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Dpavs