Golfers who don't use a driver, what is your handicap and why?

[Fairway14]

3 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

Just spitballing here, but could the idea that a 3w is "safer" than a driver be a mental holdover from when drivers weren't 460cc with gigantic faces and built for forgiveness? 

 

 

I disagree that 460CC drivers are "built for forgiveness". Those heads are built for 45" to 46" shaft lengths which produces more mishit shots than a shorter  shaft. The primary beneficiary of 460CC heads-45" shafts are Tour pros who have the technique to strike consistently solid shots with long shafted clubs. Amateur players with faulty swing technique will find it easier to make solid-square ball contact with a 41" to 43" club than they will a 45" long shafted club.

[chipa]

6 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

Just spitballing here, but could the idea that a 3w is "safer" than a driver be a mental holdover from when drivers weren't 460cc with gigantic faces and built for forgiveness? 

 

A 3w built with the face size and forgiveness of a modern driver should be easier to hit, because the shaft is 2" shorter and easier to control, and should have better dispersion because of higher loft and shorter overall distance, i.e. a 2 degree offline strike at 240 yards will land tighter than a 2 degree offline strike at 275 yards... But if the 3w doesn't have a big face and tons of forgiveness, does that actually remain true?

 

What's the relative penalty for driver vs 3w if you're, say, hitting a 0.5" off center strike? What about a 1" off center strike? A 3w has a smaller face, so an off-center strike probably carries a larger penalty than an off-center strike on a driver, right?

 

 

This makes sense for some players, however, in my case the larger head gives me issues with alignment or maybe I swing too hard because I have problems with consistency. I just recently went to a tiny 12 deg. 2 wood to match my tiny blades that I hit better than anything I've ever tried and so far like my irons the results are the best I've had.

[betarhoalphadelta]

10 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

I disagree that 460CC drivers are "built for forgiveness". Those heads are built for 45" to 46" shaft lengths which produces more mishit shots than a shorter  shaft. The primary beneficiary of 460CC heads-45" shafts are Tour pros who have the technique to strike consistently solid shots with long shafted clubs. Amateur players with faulty swing technique will find it easier to make solid-square ball contact with a 41" to 43" club than they will a 45" long shafted club.

 

Granted, of course that's true. A 45-46" club will be harder to hit dead center than a 43" club. No argument there. 

 

But I'm a high handicapper. I may be more likely to hit a 43" club closer to the center, but I'm at least likely to hit that 45" 460cc driver on the face, whereas my little 4w might be sky high off the crown, topped into the dirt, or hit darn close to the hosel or toe. I don't hit a 43" club well because I suck, but I might be more likely to advance the ball the right direction with a 460cc monster because the face is huge.

 

I bring it up because right now I'm playing very old (2001) clubs. I've been away from the game and plan to replace my entire bag this year, but it gives me a bit of a perspective on this. I don't know the displacement of my driver, but it's probably <300cc. I have trouble at my handicap actually hitting the back of the ball with the face, because I suck and the face is small. A buddy who I played with lent me his Ping G25 that he no longer uses to see if I like it and maybe sell it to me, and having never touched the club before I hit four 2nd balls on the course last weekend (will have more time at the range, but that was the first chance I got). Every one of those balls I applied the club face to the ball. They were all big hooks. The first two were low hooks because I was teeing it up too low, and the next two were higher hooks because I adjusted the tee. 

 

The results of those 4 shots were, on the whole, better consistency than I achieve with my 4w, because I don't always put the face on the ball with the 4w. Now, maybe it was "low stakes" because those were 2nd balls off the tee that I wasn't intending to play, so maybe it was a lack-of-accountability swing... 

 

But for a high-cap player like me, might it be better to use the longer club with the giant face rather than the shorter club with a small face? I've got a good chance of missing the center either way, but there's a LOT more space off-center to hit on a 460cc driver face than there is on a 3w or 4w face.

[North Butte]

I sure do toe a lot of shots with my 37" 7-iron. I'm just sayin'...

[MelloYello]

When I started, I had a prolific slice, so my 13^o 3w was something I leaned on. I also had features (flaws) in my swing that promoted a fade: weak grip, cupped wrist, open stance, steep AoA, etc. Plus, I swung too hard! 🙂

 

At that point, the driver was often a risk and the 3w was more playable. I recall 3w shots going 240-270 depending on the conditions. Surprisingly, as I've improved I've actually lost some of that upper potential. Yes, my SS has dropped a bit but I don't hit those bullet shots that run forever either. I swing much smoother now and hit the ball on a more proper trajectory so it ends up landing softer (240-255). 

 

I had shot in the 70s several times back during that phase so it's not as if you can't be a good player hitting 3w off the tee. I bet I could do that today and be just fine on most courses TBH. 

 

And that's the thing. Guys who hit 3w often learn to get what they need out of it. A fairway metal can be great for someone that swings too hard or too aggressively. The shorter shaft and smaller head creates a more balanced look/feel. And the increased loft reduces side-to-side curvature. 

 

The only real reason I hit driver a lot these days is that I feel I put less effort into achieving the same result. While it's nice every once in awhile when the ball does get out to 280-290, the truth is I'm probably playing from a lot of the same positions I always have but I getting there without much effort at all. And that leads to great consistency and more energy/focus that I can spend on other shots. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by MelloYello

[dubbelbogey]

And, fwiw, there's nothing to say you can't, very effectively, shorten the shaft on a 460cc driver to 44 or even 43". Yeah, yeah, if you want to bring the swingweight back up, you'll need to add some lead tape or hotmelt, but I think that's very much a secondary concern. 

 

Or, you can just choke up. I know guys who just do this and are very successful with it.

[Tree Levino]

A buddy I play with almost every day played some low level college golf and doesn't use driver. He's an absolute unit. We're both fitness guys but he can lift heavy. He uses an original burner 3w with 65g stiff shaft and probably swings it around 115. It's a 280 club off the tee for him on normal shorts but he can get it out there over 300. Very Rahm looking swing. We play our course at 7100 yards and he can keep up just fine. He can't deliver loft and just snap hooks his driver. I've told him to do a fitting as I think a fade biased high lofted driver could be lethal for him. He plays to around a 5 just because he has no finesse. 

[Used to be a 3]

I play 3w off the tee because  a few weeks ago after a series of drives snap hooked into the trees I gave my 16-yr-old driver a good chuck down the fairway about 30 yards and the head snapped clean off when it landed.  It was not one of those vicious throws into the ground (which I last did 30 years ago) that is more-or-less intended to break a club.  It was one of those arcing throws and I wonder if the age of the club and it landing just wrong caused it.  To tell my wife I need a new driver after she knows how the old one went out of service is out of the question. Would not promote marital bliss. Other than a bad bout with the tee box yips last week, the 3w has been more accurate that the driver and only 10 or 15 yards shorter, so it's about a wash.  I'm fluctuating between 6-ish and 8-ish handicap.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Used to be a 3

[randytrevor]

1 hour ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Remember that "all out driver swing" carries over to the rest of the clubs within the bag. A couple of tournaments where Tiger swung his best included the 2006 British Open at Hoylake and the 2007 PGA Championship at Southern Hills. For both those wins Tiger rarely swung driver, at Hoylake it was only one shot the entire week, and his swing tempo-rhythm for all clubs throughout the bag improved due to not having the counter productive "hit it hard" or "hit it far" instinct that holding a driver often times promotes.

 

That's something I hadn't considered.

 

So with driver in the bag..."hit bombs/swing hard" mentality carries over to the other clubs, causing worse swings overall. Thus, I play better with the rest of my bag. 

 

Definitely some food for thought

 

 

[Fairway14]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Granted, of course that's true. A 45-46" club will be harder to hit dead center than a 43" club. No argument there. 

 

But I'm a high handicapper. I may be more likely to hit a 43" club closer to the center, but I'm at least likely to hit that 45" 460cc driver on the face, whereas my little 4w might be sky high off the crown, topped into the dirt, or hit darn close to the hosel or toe. I don't hit a 43" club well because I suck, but I might be more likely to advance the ball the right direction with a 460cc monster because the face is huge.

 

 

 

I understand your points and perspective. Mine is more idealistic in that I support traditional golf instruction/development suggesting a player learn technique swinging short irons. Only when a player makes consistently solid-square contact with the wedges, 9, 8, 7-iron etc... did he move on to swinging longer length clubs.

But the reality is that 99% of players are not much interested in proper technique or following the process of learning, practicing same etc... Nearly all players want to get out on the golf courses, swing all the clubs within their bag , expect mishit shots etc... and for mishit after mishit larger club heads may yield better shot results than relatively small club heads.

[nostatic]

2 hours ago, randytrevor said:

 

That's something I hadn't considered.

 

So with driver in the bag..."hit bombs/swing hard" mentality carries over to the other clubs, causing worse swings overall. Thus, I play better with the rest of my bag. 

 

Definitely some food for thought

 

 

 

there is a saying in racing - "smooth is fast." I find the same applies to my golf swing. When I relax and swing easy, I typically get good contact and good results. When I swing hard - all bets are off.

 

"grip it and rip it" is often at odds with "don't try to kill the ball." Sadly these days when I try to kill the ball, I usually just kill my back...

[lefthack]

26 minutes ago, nostatic said:

 

there is a saying in racing - "smooth is fast." I find the same applies to my golf swing. When I relax and swing easy, I typically get good contact and good results. When I swing hard - all bets are off.

 

"grip it and rip it" is often at odds with "don't try to kill the ball." Sadly these days when I try to kill the ball, I usually just kill my back...

 

I swing at about 80%. Swinging any harder has diminishing returns. 

 

I know my driver has a long way to go, but I won't give it up. I could afford to when I was younger. 

[xkilgorextroutx]

I'm a 16 and dropped down from a 21 fairly quickly by leaving the driver at home. I moved to a mini driver but still prefer my 3w off the tee.

 

I have taken lessons. I have worked on the driver. However, I still feel more comfortable with a 3w and a 3w swing off the tee on longer holes. With the driver, even with working on it at lessons and at the range, when I get to the course I don't have the confidence I won't send it 20 yards into the trees in either direction. 2 way misses are fun. With the 3w, I don't have that concern and swing confidently and I'm usually rewarded by being in the fairway.

 

Someone who's a single digit may want the extra distance the driver gives them in order to score better, particularly if they play competitively. I'm fine with playing bogey golf, given how much I actually am able to get on the course (2-3x per month max). So I figure, while I'm there I want to enjoy myself as much as possible. Part of that enjoyment is not losing balls or adding strokes because I continue to pull out the driver even when I'm not comfortable with it.

[Pepperturbo]

18 hours ago, North Butte said:

It’s one thing to say you’re happy shooting 75 or 78 from the longer tees rather than maybe 72 or 74 by moving up to 5,800. But don’t look down your nose at someone who might shoot 89 or 92 from 5,800 yards and Isn’t interested in “testing” their ability to break 100 from the big boy tees. 
 

Golf is just way more fun to most people if they at least have a chance to play the majority of holes with a driver and an iron or hybrid that can reach the green if we’ll struck. Rounds with a dozen or more advancement/layup shots because you’re playing too far back get tedious rather than fun. 

This is a discussion board where opinions widely vary.  If you don't like what I say or can't properly comprehend the message, that's your issue, not my responsibility.  I, in no way, was looking down my nose at anyone.  I don't do that with anyone.  I wasn't raised that way.  I stated clearly, it shouldn't be taxing, which goes to mental outlook and physical conditioning.    

 

There are a lot of golfers on this board and elsewhere that are not afraid of challenge, and want to improve.  Some of them are looking for different ways to practice irons.  I was quite clear about playing short yardages with irons, its iron practice for me.  

 

[As it is, I play that length but only use irons for practice and usually score around even Par.  If I played that length all the time, I'd be bored as there's no challenge.  I get my jollies TESTING myself, and can't imagine I am alone in that.  The more you test yourself, the more difficult yardages or holes won't bother you.  Golf is all about practice and preparation for the challenges this great game offers.]

 

Do what you want to have fun, but your way or mine is NOT the way for everyone.  If I could still jump out of Helo's, I would; it was exhilarating and fun.

[Pepperturbo]

5 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

a 3w is "safer" than a driver be a mental holdover from when drivers weren't 460cc with gigantic faces and built for forgiveness? 

Today's 43" 3wd, in many cases, should be easier to hit than 460cc 45"-46" driver.  Length of driver has always been a factor.  How much of one I suppose varies per person. 😛

 

Go figure, a lot of people can hit 3wd but can't hit 3i.  That I don't understand.

 

[SpaghettiVeyron]

Sorry I'm late to the party!

 

I found this thread awhile back while searching the web with the same question in mind. I'm very good with my driver, reliably hitting it 290-330 yards depending on external factors, drawing and fading it as needed without many issues. I seemed to yo-yo between doing ok with my irons and driver one round, and being great with my driver but horrible with my irons the next. I could never do great with both swing types. Since my driver was only being used for ~15 of my 80-85 shots, I decided to go "all irons" to drop off some of the 40 or so shots I take with them per round.

 

I swapped my driver for a used RBZ Stage II Tour hybrid 2 iron, adjusted down to 15 degrees. I also pulled my 3 wood from my bag at the same time, allowing me to add another club to the bag. I opted for a 48 degree wedge to close the gap between my 44 degree PW and 52/56/60 wedge set. Here's the data:

 

Driver (8 degree setting): 315 yards reliably, decent dispersion and shaping; club head speed around 125mph

 

Hybrid 2 iron (15 degree): 275 yards off a tee; 250 off the deck

 

Hybrid 3 iron (18 degree): 250 off a tee; 235 off the deck

 

My "greens in regulation" wildly improved having only an iron style swing to focus on. My short game under 120 yards wildly improved having an extra wedge to use. On average, I'm scoring 3-4 strokes less in a dozen rounds played. Short par 4s are easier to hit the green and birdie, sometimes eagle. Par 5s hurt a little bit more, but I get the stroke back on the next short-4.

 

I still haven't broken 80, but I'm seeing less variance in my scores. I haven't shot above 90 in 12 rounds. I wouldn't do this if I had a normal swing speed, so I think that's the big deciding factor. Can you still tackle the course with your second longest club?

 

Cheers!

[Jetierney13]

I stopped using a driver this year.  Reason is I have zero self control on not swinging as hard as humanly possible.  I now bag a 13.5* "3W" that plays 44".  It has helped me stay in play a lot more while still being able to get plenty of distance.  Since the change I went from roughly a 3 handicap to I now sit around 1.1-.17 depending on the day.  I view my juiced 3W as a driver since it plays 44", it just has a much smaller head.

[Palmydrain]

On my home course, I would be willing to bet my handicap would be the same with/without driver. At 6900 from the tips, I have played with no driver and still shot 74/75. I make less birdies and am not able to reach a couple of the par 5's in two, but in general I hit more fairways and leave myself better distances into the par 4's (Would much rather have 100 yards than 40 especially with the perched-up greens we have). If you're a long hitter, I think it's good to leave the driver in the bag for a round or two and think your way around a course instead of simply trying to overpower it. 

[Blaiser]

I'm scratch, and a pretty long hitter. I can't remember who said it (maybe Jack?) But the quote was something like "The best part about driving the ball far, is that you don't need a driver."

 

A while back I was playing with my good friend and I shot somewhere around par on a difficult track. After the round he said "yeah, but you hardly hit driver so that's why" -- almost as if I was cheating.

 

I just gave him that long blank stare. Next round we played he started teeing off with less than driver for the first time lol.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Blaiser

[erock9174]

On 6/3/2021 at 11:06 AM, Fairway14 said:

I disagree that 460CC drivers are "built for forgiveness". Those heads are built for 45" to 46" shaft lengths which produces more mishit shots than a shorter  shaft. The primary beneficiary of 460CC heads-45" shafts are Tour pros who have the technique to strike consistently solid shots with long shafted clubs. Amateur players with faulty swing technique will find it easier to make solid-square ball contact with a 41" to 43" club than they will a 45" long shafted club.

I play a 42.5” 5w and 45.25 driver. Give me driver all day. Arguably the best club in my bag. Especially off a tee. 
 

and I’m by far a good golfer. Ususlly avg 78-88 depending on the day. 

[Leftyjoe89]

I hate using driver typically play a 4 or 6 iron off the tee …only time I use a driver I’s if I have to keep my second shot 200 or under for a second shot on par 4s 

[Hat Trick]

Most people could hit more fairways with their driver if they played with a shorter driver at 44 - 44.5 inches instead of the now new 45-46 inch shafts.  They would hit the center of the face more and  the loss of distance would be minimal.  Thats why they feel they hit a fairway metal or hybrid better because it's shorter and control it better.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Hat Trick

[Santiago Golf]

On 6/1/2021 at 5:00 PM, Fairway14 said:

 

I don't consider myself to have "exceptional distance". When using a tee from the tee boxes , including bounce and roll, on flat terrain sea level  golf courses, my well struck-solid shot distances average about the following :

 

Driver: 260 yards

3-wood: 235 yards

5-wood: 220 yards

 

Several of my regular playing partners hit their driver 10 to 50 yards longer than I do, half of them score better than me and half don't.

For a 6,700 to 7,000 sea level golf course I believe 230 yard tee shots are long enough to shoot par 72 golf.

For a 6,200 to 6,500 yard sea level golf course I believe 210-220 yard tee shots are enough distance to shoot par 72 golf.

Straight tee shots are important to consistently scoring low, but exceptional distance is not.

 

hitting 230 and playing 6800 ... you better make every putt to shoot par 

 

 

[Santiago Golf]

More players would be more successful if their driver was fitting for accuracy not distance 

 

10 to 16* of loft and then players can tee it low and get a good launch angle

 

lighter shafts with still heavy swing weight so you can feel the club

 

shorter shafts 

 

 

[me05501]

I think it all comes down to attack angle. 

 

Players who use a driver well have figured out how to bring the clubhead into the ball level or traveling slightly up at impact. Other guys prefer to hit down on every shot which can result in bombs with a three wood or hybrid but spells trouble with the driver.

 

I play with a guy who uses a three wood from almost every tee. He hits down on it hard and takes a divot past the ball. He gets about 250 out of it which is plenty. He's just about useless with a driver unless he's been practicing a ton. There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing the game that way. 

 

[me05501]

4 minutes ago, Santiago Golf said:

More players would be more successful if their driver was fitting for accuracy not distance 

 

10 to 16* of loft and then players can tee it low and get a good launch angle

 

lighter shafts with still heavy swing weight so you can feel the club

 

shorter shafts 

 

 

 

I agree that fitting should recognize both equally. If a pro is fitting a player for a driver he ought to at least watch the guy swing a few with his next-longest club just to make sure the driver setup is consistently longer than the player's longest fairway wood. 

 

I don't think there's any automatic prescription for loft, shaft weight/length, swing weight, grip size etc. Every player needs to find the combination that performs for him when he makes his typical swing. 

[MU Mike]

I'm a 0.1 index.  Driver off the tee used to be my strong suit when I was younger.  As I'm getting older I struggle with the long arc so I hit 3 wood and 2 hybrid off the tee.  I'm not too short off the tee with those clubs (3 wood 265 and 2 hybrid 245) and also ok with my iron distance (7 iron 180) and tend to hit a lot of greens, so even a longer course >7000 yards doesn't change my strategy.

 

Hitting driver 20-25 yards more than my 3 wood (at best) is not worth the trade off of accuracy.  For me at least.  I'm thinking of experimenting with a 43.5 inch driver, because ideally I would like to be able to hit driver more reliably.  I miss those long and straight bombs of my youth!

[Santiago Golf]

3 hours ago, me05501 said:

 

I agree that fitting should recognize both equally. If a pro is fitting a player for a driver he ought to at least watch the guy swing a few with his next-longest club just to make sure the driver setup is consistently longer than the player's longest fairway wood. 

 

I don't think there's any automatic prescription for loft, shaft weight/length, swing weight, grip size etc. Every player needs to find the combination that performs for him when he makes his typical swing. 

 

Fitting must be individualized but you can see factors that would over a broad market of players 

 

Look at a brand like xxio ... this product is great for players with slow swing speed which is most golfers 

 

sure people have different speeds and transitions ect 

but generally I feel players end up with bad swing faults because they are going after distance the wrong way and some of that is fitting

[me05501]

28 minutes ago, Santiago Golf said:

 

Fitting must be individualized but you can see factors that would over a broad market of players 

 

Look at a brand like xxio ... this product is great for players with slow swing speed which is most golfers 

 

sure people have different speeds and transitions ect 

but generally I feel players end up with bad swing faults because they are going after distance the wrong way and some of that is fitting

 

Right. 

 

I only swing my driver at about 93mph, but through a thorough fitting I've confirmed that my "normal weight" driver head and 65g shaft at 45.5" allow me to make reliable center contact and get close to optimal launch conditions. Trying ultralight shafts and heads threw my timing off so much that any distance gains were negated by loss of control and confidence. 

 

I could have blindly ordered a light head/light shaft combo from XXIO or Tour Edge based on my swing speed. I'm really glad I didn't. 

[Pepperturbo]

IMO negative thoughts are not good to share with people that may be learning.  Fun doing anything is determined by a person's character and life which generates expectations or entitlements.

 

At my age (70, 4-5 index) I grew up when building, creating, even fun was fraught with challenges, nothing was easy, not even dodgeball.  My HS and college football days were tougher than college football is today.  They keep watering down the rules, but that's another subject.  Anyhow, in all likelihood, that is why I still play tees that, by the expectations of some, are not fun.  I don't have to experience GIR to enjoy the challenge of getting up and down to save par.  Hard work has always been fun to me. 

 

Just got back from a golf vacation where I played black and blue combos, and blue and white combs, all = over 6500yds.  More than a few par 4s were over 440yds, LOL hell, one par 3 was 245yds from black tees.  My tee shots are 240+ carry, leaving most 2nd shots over 200yds into the green, which means 2i-4i into the green, or where I rely on my short game to save par.  Being tested is my definition of golf fun.

 

I am not saying my fun definition should be for everyone.  I am saying we need to be more positive in our support as opposed to it ain't fun if it's not easy.