Bushnell Launch Pro Device with Foresight

[gibbiesmalls]

2 minutes ago, CStephenson17 said:

Just out of curiosity, what would you do with those extra data points? 
 

I just don’t understand why the average golfer would need them. I’m a +4 and I’m going with the silver package mainly because I converted my theater room and want to be able to hit some. Don’t care much about playing and I for sure don’t care about much else other than ball speed and carry if I’m not getting a lesson. 
 

seems to me the average golfer, who is the target market, doesn’t need that and can save a few thousand by getting this over GC2 and HMT

For Golf Simulation those extra clubhead data points are worthless. In fact, only ball data is needed for golf simulation.

 

From the sounds of it, for your use case, all you really need is a GC2 without the software or without HMT. If all you're seeking is ball speeds and carry (like the pro's use their Quads), then this is perfect for you.

 

The additional clubhead data points are invaluable for anyone wanting to improve their game(beyond lessons obviously)/club fitting/ and teaching.

 

As a golfer with a bit of a cast in my swing (because I have a tendency to be open at the top), I am constantly monitoring my face angle numbers and my dynamic loft.  Almost immediately by looking at those numbers, I can tell whether my cast is creeping back into my swing or not. The GC3 wouldn't help me in that regard.

 

 

[radiman]

5 minutes ago, gibbiesmalls said:

For Golf Simulation those extra clubhead data points are worthless. In fact, only ball data is needed for golf simulation.

 

From the sounds of it, for your use case, all you really need is a GC2 without the software or without HMT. If all you're seeking is ball speeds and carry (like the pro's use their Quads), then this is perfect for you.

 

The additional clubhead data points are invaluable for anyone wanting to improve their game(beyond lessons obviously)/club fitting/ and teaching.

 

As a golfer with a bit of a cast in my swing (because I have a tendency to be open at the top), I am constantly monitoring my face angle numbers and my dynamic loft.  Almost immediately by looking at those numbers, I can tell whether my cast is creeping back into my swing or not. The GC3 wouldn't help me in that regard.

 

 

for starters, they no longer sell new gc2 units. Also, if he were to buy second hand there’s a transfer fee. And would still have to pay for sim software on top of that. Just looking at eBay and I haven’t seen a recently sold gc2 come close to sniffing the price of the launch pro. And that’s for a used device. 

[gibbiesmalls]

13 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

The GC2 is awesome, but considering second hand prices for a GC2+HMT combo command ~$8K, the decision isn't really clear cut. Also, considering only certain models work with Apple products, dated tech/connectivity, the potential need for new batteries and flash modules units, the need to purchase software or pay a transfer fee driving the cost up, and the units are no longer supported make the decision even less clear. 

 

However, what's tempting is the GC2 is a beast, the functionally is as good as anything on the market. In a way, Foresight almost made it too good. So much so, I'm sure they couldn't wait to get rid of it as it had to eat into their Quad sales to some degree. If the second hand prices fall into $5-6K range, including software, I'd say it's a slam dunk, but until then it feels like an expensive and potentially risky proposition. 

 

I guess my point is that (from my pov) the GC3 is really only a GC2 with Clubhead Speed and Club Path, but unlike the GC2, you lose the ability to get all clubhead data points as an option in the future.

 

The GC2s outside of their cameras, are very simple devices with very few moving parts and simple firmware. They're built like tanks, and if cared for, will last forever.  Batteries are easily rebuilt, and flashes seem to last much much longer than they're rated for. 

 

I do wonder if a Launch Pro would work with an existing FSX2020 License... I doubt it...but..

[larciel]

1 hour ago, Indygolf21 said:

Uh, not arguing prices don’t matter. Simply arguing that in this context, I don’t think there’s a large enough number of people swayed by $300 to offset a 38% subscription price reduction. Saying the user base will increase by 2.5x simply by lowering the price $300 on a product that costs thousands is laughable. 

why not? 

 

it's probably on a better basis than your theory of 'most people wouldn't be swayed by $300/year' 

 

of course, if price goes down to $100/year for Gold, it wouldn't mean you'd get 8 times the people. but there is certainly a price/demand ratio and at $800/year, it's at the farther end of the curve.

Edited October 1, 2021 by larciel

[gibbiesmalls]

8 minutes ago, radiman said:

for starters, they no longer sell new gc2 units. Also, if he were to buy second hand there’s a transfer fee. And would still have to pay for sim software on top of that. Just looking at eBay and I haven’t seen a recently sold gc2 come close to sniffing the price of the launch pro. And that’s for a used device. 

What would he need sim software for? He said all he cares about is ball speeds and carry distances.

 

Transfer fees aren't required. Transfer fees are only required if you're seeking hardware support from Foresight. 

 

[radiman]

15 minutes ago, gibbiesmalls said:

What would he need sim software for? He said all he cares about is ball speeds and carry distances.

 

Transfer fees aren't required. Transfer fees are only required if you're seeking hardware support from Foresight. 

 

He mentioned silver package so just assumed there would be some simulation. If all a guy wants is distance and speed then the launch pro with the lowest level of subscription at $100 a year would be a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a used gc2. 
 

now if this release drives down prices on said used gc2 then I’m all ears haha. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by radiman

[Cactus Jack]

1 hour ago, gibbiesmalls said:

I guess my point is that (from my pov) the GC3 is really only a GC2 with Clubhead Speed and Club Path, but unlike the GC2, you lose the ability to get all clubhead data points as an option in the future.

 

The GC2s outside of their cameras, are very simple devices with very few moving parts and simple firmware. They're built like tanks, and if cared for, will last forever.  Batteries are easily rebuilt, and flashes seem to last much much longer than they're rated for. 

 

I do wonder if a Launch Pro would work with an existing FSX2020 License... I doubt it...but..

 

Ugh…now I kind of want to hold out for a good deal on a GC2 HMT combo! 
 

I can almost guarantee the license would not transfer. Also, it begs the question how will the license for second hand GC3s be handled. Can the software be be registered to multiple users or will a transfer fee be required? I don’t see this being an issue with the Launch Pro, but possibly a GC3 loop hole to consider for folks want to pick up a used unit. 

[hammersia]

9 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

The Dave Ramsey in me has to advocate against financing the purchase of a toy. Make a plan, work hard, keep saving, then enjoy the heck out of your purchase no strings attached. Sorry for the dad rant, there are just too many folks still paying off the tacos they bought 30 years ago with student loans. 

Dave Ramsey said that all golf related purchases were exempt from his rules. I'm sure he did.

[James495738]

2 hours ago, gibbiesmalls said:

As a golfer with a bit of a cast in my swing (because I have a tendency to be open at the top), I am constantly monitoring my face angle numbers and my dynamic loft.  Almost immediately by looking at those numbers, I can tell whether my cast is creeping back into my swing or not. The GC3 wouldn't help me in that regard.

It wont give you face angle and dynamic loft but you can infer it fairly easily if you have launch direction, launch angle and AoA.

-Face angle dominates launch direction.

-Dynamic loft dominates launch angle. The ball will always launch between DL and AoA, heavily skewed towards DL.

[JMG71]

In real life I can see the 3D ball flight, carry, total, hor offset and distance to my target. IMO these metrics and visual are all "must have" for a proper range sim and shot shape practice.

Step1 Range sim

Step2 Advanced metrics

Step3 Golf sim

 

Was hoping for less but will be ok with $3K but if $7K or $3K+subscription for a 3D range sim I'm out and IMO the clear value is for those who are into sim golf and advanced metrics.

[Dan13]

Reading the MGS review, they indicate that a LP without a subscription will work as a completely self contained unit, aka, only see the basic numbers displayed after the swing and then they are gone forever. That wasn't clear to me prior as I was wondering what happens without a subscription.  So if you are anti-subscription and cost conscious there appears to be a choice for the most accurate PLM ball data available (admittedly pretty limited) for $3k no strings attached.

[Bama_Rich]

12 hours ago, statepgm said:

Trying to figure out why I’d go this route vs Skytrak. Club path plus AoA and (slightly?) higher accuracy. But for significantly higher upfront and ongoing cost. 
 

I haven’t done a ton of research here, so assume I’m missing something. 

 

The accuracy is the key component and you may be undervaluing how much more accurate the GC3/GC4 are than the SkyTrak.  Here's a video doing a side by side comparison of Sky Trak to the GC4.  Is the SkyTrak unusable? No.  Is it close to as accurate as GC4? No.

 

 

[CStephenson17]

7 hours ago, gibbiesmalls said:

What would he need sim software for? He said all he cares about is ball speeds and carry distances.

 

Transfer fees aren't required. Transfer fees are only required if you're seeking hardware support from Foresight. 

 

I’ll use simulation for a party trick when people come over.

 

but I’m for sure not buying a GC2 because you have to pay the transfer fee if you ever need it worked on which is inevitable. At the cost of buying a second hand GC2 plus transfer and then hoping I don’t need it worked on is a big ask. Especially for mostly the same data. 

[bbish937]

14 hours ago, cmatthews77 said:

 

Yes, it does seem like just paying $3k down on the GC3 and then financing the $4k difference is a smarter option than spending $3k and then still having to pay $70/mo for eternity...

 

Whoops! Misread that, mixed up the per month or per year. But yes, that's a high price to pay indefinitely AND whenever you do go to resell your LP because its subscription based, you wont get a dime back on the subscription you paid.

Edited October 1, 2021 by bbish937

[gueuzengolf]

1 minute ago, bbish937 said:

 

$70/month? Where you get that? Lol, its either $400 or $800 per month. Let's be real no one is buying this thing for $100/m at a 2D ball flight... this is a simulator.

*per YEAR

[noodle24]

13 minutes ago, Bama_Rich said:

 

The accuracy is the key component and you may be undervaluing how much more accurate the GC3/GC4 are than the SkyTrak.  Here's a video doing a side by side comparison of Sky Trak to the GC4.  Is the SkyTrak unusable? No.  Is it close to as accurate as GC4? No.

 

 

Yeah but read the comments in this video. Several people point out these guys didn't have the SkyTrak set up properly. Compared to the GC Quad, the SkyTrak requires optimal conditions (level, proper lighting, etc.) for it to work right.

[bbish937]

To the people going for the LP and saying new tech will be out in 5 years and they want to sell it and get something else, I'm not sure I follow:

LP: $3k upfront + $800 x 5 years ~ $7,000k ----> BUT your resale is only gonna be maybe 2k? You cant resell a subscription paid LOL so best case after 5 years, you're in the hole roughly $5k

GC3: $7k upfront + $0 sub cost ~ $7,000k ----> Your resale is now roughly $5k. After 5 years your in the hole roughly $2k

 

Am I missing something? But unless your only gonna have the LP for like a year or two, why is the LP appealing? Any kind of resale argument is thwarted by the fact you can never recoup your sub cost...

Edited October 1, 2021 by bbish937

[Bama_Rich]

8 minutes ago, noodle24 said:

Yeah but read the comments in this video. Several people point out these guys didn't have the SkyTrak set up properly. Compared to the GC Quad, the SkyTrak requires optimal conditions (level, proper lighting, etc.) for it to work right.

 

Sounds like another reason to go with LP/GC3, so you don't have to mess with the SkyTrak's sensitive setup requirements.  If you're not setting it up side by side with a Quad, how would someone know that it wasn't giving accurate reads?

[Rory4Pres]

I wonder how many units Bushnell missed out on selling by not offering a 3D range for free at the $3k price point...Even with the locked out specs...I bet it far outweighs the annual revenue they will be making off the base and silver packages as it stands.  

 

Let's through out a number, say 2 million extra people would have bought a unit had they offered that.  Of that 2 million, quite a few would be interested in upgrading to sim or unlocked specs or both, in the future. 

 

Not to mention, a lot would be first time simulator buyers that would grow a loyalty to that brand going forward into the future.  Same concept to why I still buy vokey wedges...because I've always used vokey wedges.  

 

Honestly foresight should have released an updated gc2 AND gc3 at the same time with the gc2 being at the $4k all in and the gc3 being $7k all in.  GC3 could have been slightly more accurate, better software, better battery, bla bla bla.  Everybody wins.

[Rory4Pres]

I can't recall anybody talking about the inevitable...

 

Quite a few people are going to hit one off the toe right into their LP/GC3 and break a camera or internal component.  Or it'll bounce off the net from a wedge and do it.  Lord knows what they will charge to repair that.  I'm not saying any of you guys will do it, but a friend or family member....Just saying...

 

If Rory can do it doing a happy gilmore, the below average golfer can do it with a normal swing.

[RH2020]

4 minutes ago, Rory4Pres said:

I wonder how many units Bushnell missed out on selling by not offering a 3D range for free at the $3k price point...Even with the locked out specs...I bet it far outweighs the annual revenue they will be making off the base and silver packages as it stands.  

 

Let's through out a number, say 2 million extra people would have bought a unit had they offered that.  Of that 2 million, quite a few would be interested in upgrading to sim or unlocked specs or both, in the future. 

 

Not to mention, a lot would be first time simulator buyers that would grow a loyalty to that brand going forward into the future.  Same concept to why I still buy vokey wedges...because I've always used vokey wedges.  

 

Honestly foresight should have released an updated gc2 AND gc3 at the same time with the gc2 being at the $4k all in and the gc3 being $7k all in.  GC3 could have been slightly more accurate, better software, better battery, bla bla bla.  Everybody wins.

How about basic: 3D range no sim, Also if you pay for gold for 5 yrs you automatically own the subscription permanently, then lower the 7k option to 6k or something

[hammersia]

13 minutes ago, Rory4Pres said:

I wonder how many units Bushnell missed out on selling by not offering a 3D range for free at the $3k price point...Even with the locked out specs...I bet it far outweighs the annual revenue they will be making off the base and silver packages as it stands.  

 

Let's through out a number, say 2 million extra people would have bought a unit had they offered that.  Of that 2 million, quite a few would be interested in upgrading to sim or unlocked specs or both, in the future. 

 

Not to mention, a lot would be first time simulator buyers that would grow a loyalty to that brand going forward into the future.  Same concept to why I still buy vokey wedges...because I've always used vokey wedges.  

 

Honestly foresight should have released an updated gc2 AND gc3 at the same time with the gc2 being at the $4k all in and the gc3 being $7k all in.  GC3 could have been slightly more accurate, better software, better battery, bla bla bla.  Everybody wins.

I was with you ITT up until this ^^^^ , no, just no.

 

1) They haven't missed any sales as it's not available yet

2) 2 million extra sales is a fantasy. The GC3 factory is geared up to do 200 a day I think we agreed? Skytrak can't have done 100,000 total and even that is with a load of advertising. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by hammersia

[Rory4Pres]

6 minutes ago, hammersia said:

I was with you ITT up until this ^^^^ , no, just no.

 

1) They haven't missed any sales as it's not available yet

2) 2 million extra sales is a fantasy. The GC3 factory is geared up to do 200 a day I think we agreed? Skytrak can't have done 100,000 total and even that is with a load of advertising. 

I don't study their sales reports.  You get my drift...

[noodle24]

1 hour ago, Bama_Rich said:

 

Sounds like another reason to go with LP/GC3, so you don't have to mess with the SkyTrak's sensitive setup requirements.  If you're not setting it up side by side with a Quad, how would someone know that it wasn't giving accurate reads?

There's no arguing that LP/GC3 is a better, more accurate product. Where SkyTrak wins is in price and 3rd party sim options. I've just heard too many people recently complain about SkyTrak's accuracy. You can find plenty of videos where it stacks up pretty well. (see below)

 

My two cents, as a SkyTrak user... the accuracy is pretty good, especially for the price.

 

Where SkyTrak falls short is:

 

1) Missed shots - This can be helped if you use the right conditions, but it still happens enough that it's a nuisance.

2) Delay - There's a 2.5-3 second delay at best with a high end gaming laptop.

3) Conditions - Basically unusable outside. Indoors, you have to place it right on the laser dot and have the logo facing the camera. Also, lighting, walls, and level can all impact results.

4) Club data - Nothing is measured. Any club data it displays is guessed based on algorithms.

 

All that said, if you use this indoors and get the set up right, I think most will find the differences in yardage/ball flight compared to much higher end systems to be quite satisfactory.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by noodle24

[hammersia]

6 minutes ago, Rory4Pres said:

I don't study their sales reports.  You get my drift...

I'm coming from the angle that although I'm annoyed at the lack of a 3D range for 3K, losing me as a potential customer is really not going to be significant to them compared to all that lovely repeating subscription revenue. 

 

Commercially speaking, I can understand why they are doing what they are doing, and they will almost certainly be very successful with it unless they have major supply/quality/warranty issues.

[radiman]

5 minutes ago, hammersia said:

I'm coming from the angle that although I'm annoyed at the lack of a 3D range for 3K, losing me as a potential customer is really not going to be significant to them compared to all that lovely repeating subscription revenue. 

 

Commercially speaking, I can understand why they are doing what they are doing, and they will almost certainly be very successful with it unless they have major supply/quality/warranty issues.

Same here for me.  I was really hoping for some more base functionality.  But, I get it.  Their bread and butter with this thing will be subscription revenue since it is essentially just all profit.  I am not 100% out on the product by any means.  I would consider the silver package but I was hoping it would have given spin axis.  

[gibbiesmalls]

1 hour ago, CStephenson17 said:

I’ll use simulation for a party trick when people come over.

 

but I’m for sure not buying a GC2 because you have to pay the transfer fee if you ever need it worked on which is inevitable. At the cost of buying a second hand GC2 plus transfer and then hoping I don’t need it worked on is a big ask. Especially for mostly the same data. 

Transfer fees are "evitable".  I've had mine 6 years... loan it to friends and family ALL the time and have never even thought about having to pay the transfer fee.  I suppose you're right that on a long enough timeline...

 

I just think this transfer fee is overstated. But I understand, to each's peace of mind, their own. 

[James495738]

1 hour ago, bbish937 said:

To the people going for the LP and saying new tech will be out in 5 years and they want to sell it and get something else, I'm not sure I follow:

LP: $3k upfront + $800 x 5 years ~ $7,000k ----> BUT your resale is only gonna be maybe 2k? You cant resell a subscription paid LOL so best case after 5 years, you're in the hole roughly $5k

GC3: $7k upfront + $0 sub cost ~ $7,000k ----> Your resale is now roughly $5k. After 5 years your in the hole roughly $2k

 

Am I missing something? But unless your only gonna have the LP for like a year or two, why is the LP appealing? Any kind of resale argument is thwarted by the fact you can never recoup your sub cost...

For this to happen it will rely on there being no competition and the new price still being >7k. If in 5 years the new price is 3-4k a 5yr old used one wont be worth close to 5k.

 

This pricing is opening the door to a ST2 or similar product to take almost all of their customers; that is why I think it will drop dramatically in the next couple of years.

[CStephenson17]

2 minutes ago, gibbiesmalls said:

Transfer fees are "evitable".  I've had mine 6 years... loan it to friends and family ALL the time and have never even thought about having to pay the transfer fee.  I suppose you're right that on a long enough timeline...

 

I just think this transfer fee is overstated. But I understand, to each's peace of mind, their own. 

Sure but most people wouldn’t be buying from their friends. It’s not loaning it out where you are still the owner it’s for someone who buys one second hand and becomes the owner. $1000 for transfer last I heard. Not expensive but also continues to push up the cost of GC2 compared to GC3 new

[mgoblue83]

I'm shocked that there isn't more outrage that neither of these units will support the best 3rd party simulator software options on the market (TCG/GSPRO). FYI - Trackman offers by far the best sim software but that is for a different discussion.

 

Foresights FSX is hot garbage.

 

The graphics are extremely dated, the courses are limited (and expensive) and it just plays clunky. It's a huge downgrade for simulator golfers to be forced into FSX or "maybe" E6 when they already have far better experience with TCG/GSPRO. Sure, the data might be slightly more accurate than a Skytrak/Mevo+ but again, the experience is a huge downgrade.