Greens are too fast!

[acemandrake]

16 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

… long after it goes by the hole.

Advice applies mostly to short putts.  Need to trust your stroke.

[PEI_Golfer]

I would think that most players have absolutely no clue about green speeds and what is actually playable.  I also think that most turf staff just spit out numbers for members rather then tell them reality to help their egos.

 

Most pub/muni courses will be running at like 8-9.  Most private 9-10.  There will always be some exceptions out there, but not that many.  12 and above is just unplayable for the vast majority of players and they will never see speeds like that, even if they are told they are (baring weather conditions and geographical location).

[Hickory4ever]

11 hours ago, PEI_Golfer said:

I would think that most players have absolutely no clue about green speeds and what is actually playable.  I also think that most turf staff just spit out numbers for members rather then tell them reality to help their egos.

 

Most pub/muni courses will be running at like 8-9.  Most private 9-10.  There will always be some exceptions out there, but not that many.  12 and above is just unplayable for the vast majority of players and they will never see speeds like that, even if they are told they are (baring weather conditions and geographical location).

I agree that most players have no clue about the actual speed of greens. I think that for the enjoyment of most golfers and pace of play issues that green speeds should be reasonable, sort of the Goldilocks approach. 

[Davecz]

I much prefer too fast over too slow.  I know a lot of people will complain about an overly fast green but slow is just miserable and inconsistent

[jdl]

On 4/21/2022 at 5:34 PM, ChristopherMcDonald said:

Fast is cool so long as it's pure. I find the two are USUALLY synonymous 

And if the greens are reasonably large/flat. There's a course in my area that I've stopped playing because they have a bunch of shortish par 4s with very small greens that have a bunch of slope/mounding/tiers. On many of them there's not more than one reasonable pin placement and if you're in the wrong spot it's almost always (at least) a 3 putt. One time they had a back pin on a 3 tiered green and a guy on my group was putting up to it from the middle tier. He didn't give it quite enough and it came up short. Then rolled down to the middle tier. And then to the front tier. And then off the green and back down the fairway 50 yards. 🤣

[StudentGolfer4]

The they are building a new green on #8 at Pebble. One pga tour caddie is applauding the change for several reasons that have been stated here. Increased green speeds have rendered the front portion of the green unusable and led to fewer pin locations. (No idea what the rep from the pga or pebble will state as the reason for the new green but the caddie quoted is essentially saying the  green has become too fast in its current state.)
 

link is below 

https://golf.com/travel/pebble-beach-8th-hole-green-more-dramatic/

[larrybud]

On 5/1/2022 at 8:33 PM, PEI_Golfer said:

I would think that most players have absolutely no clue about green speeds and what is actually playable.  I also think that most turf staff just spit out numbers for members rather then tell them reality to help their egos.

 

Most pub/muni courses will be running at like 8-9.  Most private 9-10.  There will always be some exceptions out there, but not that many.  12 and above is just unplayable for the vast majority of players and they will never see speeds like that, even if they are told they are (baring weather conditions and geographical location).

 

Absolutely spot on. These people thinking they are playing 11+ all the time are delusional. Go buy a stimp meter and measure them yourselves (yes, I have done just that).

[Obee]

5 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

Absolutely spot on. These people thinking they are playing 11+ all the time are delusional. Go buy a stimp meter and measure them yourselves (yes, I have done just that).

Delusional, huh? 🙂

 

I, too, have a Stimpmeter (and will post a pic). 
 

At my previous home course (Bear Creek in Murrieta, CA) for 5ish months out of the year, the greens were 11.5 or higher. In December January and February, they rarely got below 12.5.

 

Fastest I Stimped them was 13.75 about three weeks before Q-School seven or eight years ago, but our Director of Golf and the Super said they had them over 14 for 2 - 4 week stretches in the cool months regularly.

 

We had members that would just get demoralized. On top of the speed, they were firm as can be also for long stretches. Guys would go from a five at the end of summer to 10's or 11's by the time the weather warmed up again in late spring (this was before the hard and soft cap thing). The low guys would just destroy the mid cappers during thos months.

 

Conversely, my current home greens run 9 to 10.5. They simply can't be gotten much faster than 11 because we have so much back to front and side to side slope. Our greens were built in the 1920s.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Obee
Typo and clarity

[Shilgy]

17 minutes ago, Obee said:

Delusional, huh? 🙂

 

I, too, have a Stimpmeter (and will post a pic). 
 

At my previous home course (Bear Creek in Murrieta, CA) for 5ish months out of the year, the greens were 11.5 or higher. In December January and February, they rarely got below 12.5.

 

Fastest I Stimped them was 13.75 about three weeks before Q-School seven or eight years ago, but our Director of Golf and the Super said they had them over 14 for 2 - 4 week stretches in the cool months regularly.

 

We had members that would just get demoralized. On top of the speed, they were firm as can be also for long stretches. Guys would go from a five at the end of summer to 10's or 11's by the time the weather warmed up again in late spring (this was before the hard and soft cap thing). The low guys would just destroy the mid cappers during thos months.

 

Conversely, my current home greens run 9 to 10.5. They simply can't be gotten much faster than 11 because we have so much back to front and side to side slope. Our greens were built in the 1920s.

 

 

Sounds familiar.  Last fall I asked our super what the greens were running as they seemed a bit slow….his reply was 9 and that at first frost they would change overnight to 12.  A month later, a week or two after said frost, I asked again and he said they were 12.  For a period in January-March he told me he was cutting shorter than ever in his tenure…. 0.110”.  Played a buddies course in Flagstaff late last fall and they were a foot or two faster than that.  I would have a 15’ uphill putt and try to hit an aggressive putt to 10’ and it would run easy 3-4’  by.  
 I wouldn’t call it unplayable but it certainly took some readjusting/recalibrating of the mindset.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Shilgy

[Obee]

[larrybud]

13 hours ago, Obee said:

Delusional, huh? 🙂

 

I, too, have a Stimpmeter (and will post a pic). 
 

At my previous home course (Bear Creek in Murrieta, CA) for 5ish months out of the year, the greens were 11.5 or higher. In December January and February, they rarely got below 12.5.

 

Fastest I Stimped them was 13.75 about three weeks before Q-School seven or eight years ago, but our Director of Golf and the Super said they had them over 14 for 2 - 4 week stretches in the cool months regularly.

 

We had members that would just get demoralized. On top of the speed, they were firm as can be also for long stretches. Guys would go from a five at the end of summer to 10's or 11's by the time the weather warmed up again in late spring (this was before the hard and soft cap thing). The low guys would just destroy the mid cappers during thos months.

 

Conversely, my current home greens run 9 to 10.5. They simply can't be gotten much faster than 11 because we have so much back to front and side to side slope. Our greens were built in the 1920s.

 

 

 

Of course there are outliers, but I stand by the assertion that the vast majority of people think they are playing on greens which are faster than they really are.

[North Butte]

I love putting on fast greens, the faster the better.

 

Right up until they get too fast. I hate putting on greens that are too fast!

[North Butte]

13 hours ago, Obee said:

Delusional, huh? 🙂

 

I, too, have a Stimpmeter (and will post a pic). 
 

At my previous home course (Bear Creek in Murrieta, CA) for 5ish months out of the year, the greens were 11.5 or higher. In December January and February, they rarely got below 12.5.

 

Fastest I Stimped them was 13.75 about three weeks before Q-School seven or eight years ago, but our Director of Golf and the Super said they had them over 14 for 2 - 4 week stretches in the cool months regularly.

 

We had members that would just get demoralized. On top of the speed, they were firm as can be also for long stretches. Guys would go from a five at the end of summer to 10's or 11's by the time the weather warmed up again in late spring (this was before the hard and soft cap thing). The low guys would just destroy the mid cappers during thos months.

 

Conversely, my current home greens run 9 to 10.5. They simply can't be gotten much faster than 11 because we have so much back to front and side to side slope. Our greens were built in the 1920s.

 

 

There's a guy at my club who owns a Stimpmeter. His readings generally seem to make sense to me. When they feel like they're getting just about all I can handle, his reading will usually be in the mid-upper 12's.

 

I know one time he got 13 feet, 3 inches and I honestly worried about not being able to finish a few of the holes. That day the foursome I was playing in had several 4-putts and a couple times guys picked up after their third putt ran off the green. For greens with any significant slopes I think the 13+ range is not really conducive to play by anyone other than elite players. 

 

In the winter our Bermuda greens are dormant and that's when the green speeds can get really high. In season when the grass is growing, the superintendent seems to do a good job of adjusting his daily cutting and/or rolling to keep them fairly quick but not scary-fast. This time of year the guy with the Stimpmeter will get a lot of readings in the 11's. I think Bermuda greens (all I have experience with) are the easist to putt on right around at Stimp of 11 to 11-1/2. You can make a lot of putts at that speed but they're not so scary you end up lagging everything short of the hole. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by North Butte

[vandyfan]

There are some clubs around here that have rather unremarkable golf courses (well conditioned but unremarkable from a design perspective). It seems like when you have a bit of a drab or boring private club, the answer is to speed up the greens as much as possible. They run at about a 12 which, to me, is not fun. Also, anecdotally, there are a few members who are not very good golfers that I hear say things like "I love our fast greens, keeps it challenging." Mind you, these guys could not break 80 at the local muni and typically shoot in the high 90s at the club. I think golf is PLENTY challenging for them without making the greens insanely fast. Just my two cents. 9-10 is perfect to me. 

[monty09]

33 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

Of course there are outliers, but I stand by the assertion that the vast majority of people think they are playing on greens which are faster than they really are.

 

 

100% agree.   I am at a club that has great greens and people think they run MUCH faster then actual... I will tell them 9-10 and they will say no way....  just because you putt poorly doesn't mean they are too fast 

[Obee]

1 hour ago, larrybud said:

 

Of course there are outliers, but I stand by the assertion that the vast majority of people think they are playing on greens which are faster than they really are.

 

Yeah, I'm just giving you sh*t. You know that. 🙂

 

I've actually noticed a bit of a lessening of that hype around SoCal. Not many guys bragging about green speeds or stimp readings. The new great architects (Doak, Hanse, Crenshaw/Coore), have done a great job of getting people to understand that faster is not "better."

[StudentGolfer4]

I second the comments about Doak, Hanse, and CC talking about their desire to use more slopes at reduced green speeds. It’s funny to me that these architects are getting some of the major restorations and are the same ones flattening greens to accommodate speeds. Interesting juxtaposition between many of their own courses and the ones they are paid to restore. 
 

It really isn’t about pin positions or green speeds but the combination of the two. A club I play frequently has an early set of Dye greens. The greens are smooth and run well but they aren’t necessarily fast. . Based on my knowledge they run 9.5-10.5 from May-September. For member guest and a few other tourneys they always speed them up a tad. On those weekends you will see balls rolling off of greens and down slopes that they do not the rest of the year. It’s at that point, where the greens can become too fast for a given hole location. 
 

 

[Stinger83]

I've only seen it be a problem a few times. I know it's the "cool" thing to like fast greens.  But it's way less stress when they're slow. You definitely make more putts inside 8 feet when it's slower. 

 

I played a charity tournament for a big company a few years ago up in Connecticut. This CC's bragging rights were that they had faster greens than Augusta. If I had to guess I bet they were running 13-15. 

 

I'm not exaggerating when I say this. Our scramble group of four scored a FOUR PUTT on one hole from about 20 feet. The average handicap in our group was probably 8. That's sixteen attempts to get the ball in the hole. Brutal

[Nard_S]

You can have fast greens (10) and receptive ones too. Greens where the ball stops dead but rolls fast & pure. It's the moisture content below the turf. Best aspect of my municipal is they hired a great greens keeper. Guy sets them at 10, but also keeps the moisture up. Late on windy day they might get hard to handle but otherwise they are fantastic to play on.If greens are ''slow'& bumpy'', they are not rolling them. Slow & smooth is possible. Fast is fun. I don't enjoy carpet putting.Would rather put up with some knee knockers.

[mallrat]

On 5/11/2022 at 12:19 PM, larrybud said:

 

Absolutely spot on. These people thinking they are playing 11+ all the time are delusional. Go buy a stimp meter and measure them yourselves (yes, I have done just that).

NO, NO,  NO. No golfer should own a stimp meter. There is absolutely no reason for it. 

[mallrat]

So my current course, we have never stimped the greens. They are what they are. They almost always match the slope of the greens and are very healthy which is all we (as an Asst. super) really care about. Well I lied, we host an LPGA qualifier and Lucy Li complained one year that the greens were too slow, we stumped them that afternoon and they were a little over 10 around 3:30-4 so pretty much an 11 when they tee’d off. 
 

We keep ours around 9-10 during times we can control it. In the PNW the weather can often dictate what they roll at. We are a daily fee course that hosts around 110 corporate tournaments a year, we can’t get them too fast. 
 

My previous facility had 36 holes and both courses were stimped daily. The private side made it known that they expected their greens to be faster than the public course every day. Both sides were normally between 10 & 12. We got them to a 14 for a US Open qualifier and kept them there for about week. Never had so many complaints about greens. They were way to fast for the vast majority of golfers. Now the greens could play that fast and the slope matches the speed just the ability wasn’t there. 
 

For those that stimp greens on your own, do you do it properly? Or how do you do it?
 

 

[596]

My current club has pretty fast greens.  Well over 10.  Had 2 greens with cup spots last week that the ball rolled back down to you 8 feet below the hole.  I hit 15 putts up that hill on one of the greens just to see if it would roll back down every time.   Sure enough, didn't have to move one time.  Rolled the ball 2 feet past the hole and it came right back down to me every time.  Lots of these greens have useless spots where a cup can never be cut.  

 

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed that morning.  

[Obee]

7 hours ago, mallrat said:

So my current course, we have never stimped the greens. They are what they are. They almost always match the slope of the greens and are very healthy which is all we (as an Asst. super) really care about. Well I lied, we host an LPGA qualifier and Lucy Li complained one year that the greens were too slow, we stumped them that afternoon and they were a little over 10 around 3:30-4 so pretty much an 11 when they tee’d off. 
 

We keep ours around 9-10 during times we can control it. In the PNW the weather can often dictate what they roll at. We are a daily fee course that hosts around 110 corporate tournaments a year, we can’t get them too fast. 
 

My previous facility had 36 holes and both courses were stimped daily. The private side made it known that they expected their greens to be faster than the public course every day. Both sides were normally between 10 & 12. We got them to a 14 for a US Open qualifier and kept them there for about week. Never had so many complaints about greens. They were way to fast for the vast majority of golfers. Now the greens could play that fast and the slope matches the speed just the ability wasn’t there. 
 

For those that stimp greens on your own, do you do it properly? Or how do you do it?
 

 

Do we do it "properly"?

Do you think that I would take the time to seek out an actual stimpmeter and not know how to use it? 

 

It's not like it involves differential equations…
 

 

[mallrat]

1 hour ago, Obee said:

Do we do it "properly"?

Do you think that I would take the time to seek out an actual stimpmeter and not know how to use it? 

 

It's not like it involves differential equations…
 

 

Not saying you don’t know how to use it.  However I’ve seen people just do it on one green in one direction. The way I was taught was a minimum of 3 greens and 3 balls. Once you roll the 3 balls you then roll them the exact same line in the opposite direction. We used to do the putting green and 3 greens on course before anyone touched them or right after the mower/roller got finished. Just having a hard time seeing people who don’t work on the course have time to do that.

 

I’ve also seen what we refer to as a “vanity stimp” or they keep raising the stimp once the ball releases. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by mallrat

[mallrat]

I would rather see firmness meters be used than stimps. The problem would be cost and explaining to people the readings. But firmness testers are a good example or starting point for a greens trueness. 
 

Honestly the golf world would ideally move towards a trueness test but there is no universal definition for that yet. One of the methods, the bobble test, can be done while using a stimp meter, the rest all require special tools. If anyone is interested Micah Woods has a great YouTube on this topic. He is very highly regarded in the agronomy world. 
 

 

[Obee]

1 hour ago, mallrat said:

Not saying you don’t know how to use it.  However I’ve seen people just do it on one green in one direction.

I am not one of those people. I first learned how to properly use a Stimpmeter in ~1995.

[North Butte]

On 5/14/2022 at 12:39 PM, Nard_S said:

You can have fast greens (10) and receptive ones too. Greens where the ball stops dead but rolls fast & pure. It's the moisture content below the turf. Best aspect of my municipal is they hired a great greens keeper. Guy sets them at 10, but also keeps the moisture up. Late on windy day they might get hard to handle but otherwise they are fantastic to play on.If greens are ''slow'& bumpy'', they are not rolling them. Slow & smooth is possible. Fast is fun. I don't enjoy carpet putting.Would rather put up with some knee knockers.

I would not care to play a course where the greens were so soft that every shot stops dead. Yuck.

 

Playing for the bounce and roll on firm, interestingly contoured greens is the most fascinating part of golf. 

[Nard_S]

2 hours ago, North Butte said:

I would not care to play a course where the greens were so soft that every shot stops dead. Yuck.

 

Playing for the bounce and roll on firm, interestingly contoured greens is the most fascinating part of golf. 

It really depends. It's more about the gear than the greens keeper on that. I watched a really able guy, could not stop the ball, would have helped him too. But he had high launch, low spin bag, I carry the opposite. My real point was you can have very fast and smooth greens, they also can be quite receptive at the same time. The moisture thing is a bit surprising. It's a bit revealing too. If the effort is there it can be done. Most courses just don't care or don't know. But fast & receptive is doable.

[StudentGolfer4]

4 hours ago, Nard_S said:

It really depends. It's more about the gear than the greens keeper on that. I watched a really able guy, could not stop the ball, would have helped him too. But he had high launch, low spin bag, I carry the opposite. My real point was you can have very fast and smooth greens, they also can be quite receptive at the same time. The moisture thing is a bit surprising. It's a bit revealing too. If the effort is there it can be done. Most courses just don't care or don't know. But fast & receptive is doable.

I’m sure it’s doable but I’ve never heard of any elite courses that strive for fast and receptive. Everyone wants firm and fast. Augusta, Oakmont, Merion, Seminole, etc. all want fast and firm. That’s almost the universal goal of top100 places everywhere.

 

Just spoke with a buddy that got back from a trip that combined Merion and Oakmont. He actually thought the greens at Merion were borderline too firm for their size and slope. If Merion chooses to keep their greens firm it’s clearly not because the effort isn’t there like you claim. I haven’t played either but I can reasonably assure you that Merion and Oakmont “care and know.”  
 

I’m guessing we will agree that receptive and firm are very subjective to each person. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by StudentGolfer4

[mallrat]

Actually for every day play everyone wants their greens playable. Fast and receptive are not mutually exclusive. I can’t imagine a course wants their greens not receptive which by definition borders on unplayable. 
 

Look at any Top 100 public course, while firm may be a goal playability is more important. Take Bandon for example, their greens are traditionally very firm but they are very receptive. Part of the firmness is soil type. 

 

Also Oakmont, Augusta, Merion and Pine Valley should not be the norm but the exception. That is a HUGE problem in golf in that people see those places and expect that at your local muni or even your average private course. The Augustafication of golf has not been a good thing for the game. I know that term generally refers to the greenness of a course but it also refers to a courses conditions