LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[bcjim]

9 hours ago, dalehead said:

Maybe after having some success on LIV Peter may be thinking he could have a successful career in golf after all. Best to start positioning himself now to be able to return to the PGAT when the Saudis plug the plug on LIV.

More likely he remembered he was born with a gigantic silver spoon in his mouth.

 

Also maybe someone reminded him that the PGA Tour and Titleist have a longstanding relationship of some sort (Every PGA Tour tournament leaderboard touts what players use Titleist balls and its been that way as long as I can recall). The PGA Tour is, I suspect, at least indirectly (and maybe quite directly) a big factor in the size of the Uihlein family fortune.

 

 

[CaseyC]

https://www.si.com/golf/news/owgr-liv-golf-taking-time-on-a-decision-mike-whan-usga

 

Last week, USGA CEO Mike Whan told Sports Illustrated’s Alex Miceli that "we’re not just rushing in to figure this out, because it’s different."...

 

..."There are some things about LIV that you could probably address mathematically," Whan said. "And there’s a couple of things at LIV that are a little bit more challenging to just slide a player in and make sure that you’re being fair to all the other players, and all of the tours around the world."

[HackerDad78]

On 5/6/2023 at 7:53 AM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

The PGAT has a competing events restriction for a reason. The top players agree to that restriction for a reason. 

 

The reason is that the gravy train is funded by TV broadcast deals. When the top players aren't playing PGAT events, that gravy train is still running and benefiting them. 

 

If the top players go play a competing LIV event, in North America, in the exact same broadcast window that the PGAT is broadcasting an event, just about every eyeball that's watching the LIV event is one that is NOT watching the PGAT. It reduces the PGAT's ratings. It devalues the PGAT as a broadcast product for advertisers. It's throwing sand in the gears of the gravy train that they rely on. 

 

This isn't about telling players what they can't do. It's about creating rules that protect the value of the product. One of those rules is requiring a player to request and be granted a release to play in a competing event, and NOT granting releases for events in North America that directly compete with the PGAT. With a few exceptions, it's also limited to 3 competing events releases per year. 

 

Letting PGAT players play a full LIV season, even if they fulfilled every other obligation of being a PGAT member wrt number of PGAT events played, etc, would cause tremendous devaluation of the PGAT product. That's what this is about, not Monahan being a tyrant. 

How DARE you include logic and business reality in your post?? I'd prefer if we could just continue arguing about how these two competing entities should team-up for "the good of the game."

I'll be back, I have to go get a collaboration going between Titleist and Taylormade... 

[CDM]

13 hours ago, bekgolf said:

 

Whatever the demographics are for them to sell advertising.  It wouldn't matter where just as long as the demographic had money to spend.  Without viewers who have disposable income they fail.

 

Good qustion but how many people buy from items from advertisements, more so related to GOLF.

 

I had to think about this for a bit. I agree marketing is key, but 99% sure I have ever bought anything, invested in any company, etc that advertised during a PGAT event. 

 

IE: meaning that becuase they marketed a product during said event it drew me to where I had to go out and buy it, invest with them, etc.  Not just golf other sports included.

 

Yes...I buy Titleist balls/clubs, Mizuno clubs, Bridgestone balls, etc. but not because of a commercial.  I would bet thought that is more common in the states.  We are lucky as we have so much more access to golf equipment here VS other parts of the world so we can test vs "hoping" that driver works well. 

 

Normally the rule would be how many people you reach. Golf is not that market, not just LIV, all of golf.  Limited really. Nothing will come close to soccer.  The World Cup Final's last year reached 1.5 billion world wide. Unreal...! US largest event is the superbowl and it only hit 150 million world wide roughly which 113mm was from the US as I recall. 

 

Granted I never once thought about LA Golf BUT a certain person in this add sure has me thinking about them 🤣

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by CDM

[CDM]

1 hour ago, CaseyC said:

https://www.si.com/golf/news/owgr-liv-golf-taking-time-on-a-decision-mike-whan-usga

 

Last week, USGA CEO Mike Whan told Sports Illustrated’s Alex Miceli that "we’re not just rushing in to figure this out, because it’s different."...

 

..."There are some things about LIV that you could probably address mathematically," Whan said. "And there’s a couple of things at LIV that are a little bit more challenging to just slide a player in and make sure that you’re being fair to all the other players, and all of the tours around the world."

 

The only effects Gooch so I am not sure they "targeted" him direclty.  A rule change for just one player would be pretty petty since no one else would be an issue who plays LIV.     

 

I can see Gooch's view though.  Per the rules 9 monhts ago he was in.

 

I tried to look and could not find a rule change the USGA made that was instant, more so "retro-active" as to exclude players 6 months after the fact.  When it comes to eligiblity they made the changes and typically list for the forth coming year.   

 

So why they made this one retro-active is the odd part?

 

What happens if a PGA Tour player qualifies and yet can not play based on injury? Say he drops down to 75th ranked so he is out now?  Will they let him play becuase it was "injury" related?  

 

*Note: I looked up prior events and there has been a hand full of players who have not played in the Tour Championship over the years based on personal aspects, more so to injury and they were in the major the next year based on the rule of the Tour Chamipionship.     

 

[CDM]

5 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I don’t think so. 
 

8 out of 14 events are in the US so clearly there’s a heavy focus on the US market and it reflects the commercial potential here vs the rest of the world. 
 

The PGA tour does over a billion in revenue with over 700MM in media rights and I assume 90% + is from US media. 
 

While the “international market” is sometimes viewed as this awesome market, what does it really translate into in terms of media revenue, at this point in time? Not in 20 or 50 years but now. 

 

LIV has all these TV deals with hundreds (it seems) of non-US media outlets but it’s so fragmented. And what value do advertisers get from it? 
 

Where in the US, pga tour is a goldmine to advertisers for the best spenders with the most money, high end cars, financial services, pharma. 
 

I again refer back to Sean Bratches, the sports media guru who built ESPN and F1 into what they are now. He left LIV after a few months. Perhaps he saw how this would unfold once he actually got inside?

 

My biggest issue with LIV.   I wish they would do 4 events in the US and rest around the world. 

 

*Europe might be good gonig foward honestly as we know with what is out there in 2 years it will be depleted of talent.   

 

I also do not think the PGAT needs 50 events a year....! More than half of the events are sleepers for the most part.  As you note I get they have the TV contracts so they have too. 

 

Also in many cases the event in that area helps the charity aspects but living in Colorado we had the "international" for some time (back in the day) and it was surprising that the charity $$$ was not so "great". At least not like other events the PGAT presents.  I think some markets are just better than others.  

[smashdn]

On 5/6/2023 at 9:41 AM, betarhoalphadelta said:

I will say that there is a point there--they don't want to "destroy" the PGAT (except probably Greg) in the sense that they want the PGAT to no longer exist. They, however, want to be the world's premier golf tour and if that means the PGAT becomes small potatoes, I don't think they care (again except for Greg).  They wanted to take the PGAT's place in the golf world, and are likely indifferent to any damage that occurs to the PGAT for them to get what they want. 

 

That I can get behind.  BUT I don't see LIV ever rising to that spot when they only have 14 or so events.  In a way the PGAT out-LIVed LIV with the elevated events.  The elevated events did exactly what they were supposed to do, but they come at the cost of the other events.  LIV didn't have other events to worry about watering down.

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 hours ago, CaseyC said:

https://www.si.com/golf/news/owgr-liv-golf-taking-time-on-a-decision-mike-whan-usga

 

Last week, USGA CEO Mike Whan told Sports Illustrated’s Alex Miceli that "we’re not just rushing in to figure this out, because it’s different."...

 

..."There are some things about LIV that you could probably address mathematically," Whan said. "And there’s a couple of things at LIV that are a little bit more challenging to just slide a player in and make sure that you’re being fair to all the other players, and all of the tours around the world."

 

Yeah, I think a lot of us in this thread, even the more anti-LIV folks, have agreed that there's probably a way that you could fairly apply OWGR points to LIV. There are some issues (no cut, 54-hole play, lack of meaningful play-in model to the tour) that the article touches on, but I think some of those are things that could be worked around. 

 

This excerpt from the article, however, raises another issue that is a problem:

 

Quote

 

Recently, LIV Golf was questioned about its team format, which seems to be a new concern. It undoubtedly stems from what occurred at the event in Orlando where Sebastian Munoz admitted afterward that his long birdie putt to tie Brooks Koepka on the final green was played with caution to protect his team’s score—which he did not want to jeopardize.

 

Golfers all the time play shots to protect rather than risk damage by going for something more. But doing so on behalf of a teammate was obviously going to cause concern. LIV has player bylaws which require them to give maximum effort. Still, that Munoz admission likely did not help.

 

 

If players are making shot selection choices based on team finishes rather than individual score/finish, that's a problem for OWGR. OWGR is meant to evaluate individual golfers, and doesn't really have any way to evaluate team-based behavior. 

[johnseg]

I continue to be amazed at the people on here that do not understand the position of the PGA Tour. They did exactly what they should have done.

 

I really believe the LIV idea was to get all the top 50 players and give them 8 elite events to play. They thought that the PGA Tour wouldn't care, but the Tour had to protect their broadcast partners by not allowing thit to happen. At that point LIV tried to pivot by buying top guys and building a tour. They got some but mostly just names on the backside of their careers. The Tour again protected itself by saying if you do this you are suspended for violating your agreement with the tour. I don't think they ever had a plan to get OWGR points because they thought their guys would still be playing on the PGA and DP Tours.

 

LIV is a poorly conceived cluster of a business. It will take them to survive for likely 5-years before they fully can get their act together.

 

After all of this they have not hurt the Tour at all. Players by in large are not missed as guys haven't played every week in decades. In fact they sped up some money to the top guys making sure they don't defect to LIV thus making the PGA even stronger.

[tiderider]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/grange-golf-club-adelaide-liv-event-excessive-damage?utm_medium=email&utm_source=050823&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM39497&uuid=801caa60b6dd40c4856fa6daffec072d

 

Craig has been a member of The Grange for 45 years, and although he was pleased with the spotlight the 54-hole tournament brought to his club, he’s less than pleased with nearly everything else.

“We’re not a charity, we’re a private club, and I don’t think we’ve been compensated adequately,” he said. "We’re going to have a mess for six months and then it’s going to be back again."

 

i, for one, am shocked ... 

[ThinkingPlus]

2 hours ago, johnseg said:

I continue to be amazed at the people on here that do not understand the position of the PGA Tour. They did exactly what they should have done.

 

I really believe the LIV idea was to get all the top 50 players and give them 8 elite events to play. They thought that the PGA Tour wouldn't care, but the Tour had to protect their broadcast partners by not allowing thit to happen. At that point LIV tried to pivot by buying top guys and building a tour. They got some but mostly just names on the backside of their careers. The Tour again protected itself by saying if you do this you are suspended for violating your agreement with the tour. I don't think they ever had a plan to get OWGR points because they thought their guys would still be playing on the PGA and DP Tours.

 

LIV is a poorly conceived cluster of a business. It will take them to survive for likely 5-years before they fully can get their act together.

 

After all of this they have not hurt the Tour at all. Players by in large are not missed as guys haven't played every week in decades. In fact they sped up some money to the top guys making sure they don't defect to LIV thus making the PGA even stronger.

They all understand, but post count and word count matters.

[2bGood]

On 5/8/2023 at 9:43 AM, CDM said:

 

I also do not think the PGAT needs 50 events a year....! More than half of the events are sleepers for the most part.  As you note I get they have the TV contracts so they have too. 

 

 I am not sure why people complain about this. Just don't watch. I mean - I like to watch some of the lesser events if one of the local guys is in the hunt or if it is on at the golf club after my round or maybe the venue itself is local. Can't say my life would improve in anyway if there were less PGAT events. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by 2bGood

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

 I am not sure why people complain about this. Just don't watch. I mean I like to watch some of the lesser events if one of the local guys is in the hunt or if it is on at the golf club after my round or the vent itself is local. Can't say my life would improve in anyway if there were less PGAT events. 

 

So far this year we've had a couple of the lesser events that were awesome to watch.  In my opinion of course.  I like seeing fantastic golf being played.

[BNGL]

2 hours ago, tiderider said:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/grange-golf-club-adelaide-liv-event-excessive-damage?utm_medium=email&utm_source=050823&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM39497&uuid=801caa60b6dd40c4856fa6daffec072d

 

Craig has been a member of The Grange for 45 years, and although he was pleased with the spotlight the 54-hole tournament brought to his club, he’s less than pleased with nearly everything else.

“We’re not a charity, we’re a private club, and I don’t think we’ve been compensated adequately,” he said. "We’re going to have a mess for six months and then it’s going to be back again."

 

i, for one, am shocked ... 

If you look back in prior posts of mine you’ll see I talk about those members, this guy is the ring leader imo. Didn’t click the link don’t have to read the story I can almost guarantee you he’s the vocal leader of the minority. Every year after we’d host the Tour a couple members would come to the club, “lots of damage this year can’t play the course for a while…can’t we move it to another course in the area for a year?” Meanwhile 90 percent or more said oh great event place looked great can’t wait to have them back. Every club has members like this guy and if you don’t know who it is…

[bscinstnct]

17 hours ago, CDM said:

 

My biggest issue with LIV.   I wish they would do 4 events in the US and rest around the world. 

 

*Europe might be good gonig foward honestly as we know with what is out there in 2 years it will be depleted of talent.   

 

I also do not think the PGAT needs 50 events a year....! More than half of the events are sleepers for the most part.  As you note I get they have the TV contracts so they have too. 

 

Also in many cases the event in that area helps the charity aspects but living in Colorado we had the "international" for some time (back in the day) and it was surprising that the charity $$$ was not so "great". At least not like other events the PGAT presents.  I think some markets are just better than others.  

 

It’s the 50 events a year that creates an entire golf ecosystem, a pipeline, that builds  the pyramid of talent we have now. 
 

We all like to see the best always playing the best. But it’s the base of the pyramid, the guys who are grinding at the bottom, juniors, college kids, pros on lower tours, trying to claw their way up, that it all rests on.

 

Sure, LIV thought it would be great to just pick off the best guys. How nice lol. 
 

But had they succeeded, the whole system would collapse since the pga tour, without the top guys, would make 1/2 the money in media rights. And this infrastructure that’s been built over the decades would disappear. 
 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by bscinstnct

[MoeMoe]

So LIV has changed the game?

Me thinks, no Bueno.

 

 

 

 

[Titleist99]

11 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

It’s the 50 events a year that creates an entire golf ecosystem, a pipeline, that builds  the pyramid of talent we have now. 
 

We all like to see the best always playing the best. But it’s the base of the pyramid, the guys who are grinding at the bottom, juniors, college kids, pros on lower tours, trying to claw their way up, that it all rests on.

 

Sure, LIV thought it would be great to just pick off the best guys. How nice lol. 
 

But had they succeeded, the whole system would collapse since the pga tour, without the top guys, would make 1/2 the money in media rights. And this infrastructure that’s been built over the decades would disappear. 
 

 

totally correct. there's always something to play for on the pgat thanks to the  bottom half working their way up. storylines galore.

 

take away the top players and the pgat will suffer during media negotiations. that $6B contract becomes $2B in 2030. that's the threat that GN and liv presents.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Titleist99

[Titleist99]

11 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 I am not sure why people complain about this. Just don't watch. I mean I like to watch some of the lesser events if one of the local guys is in the hunt or if it is on at the golf club after my round or the vent itself is local. Can't say my life would improve in anyway if there were less PGAT events. 

LOL!....surely these people have remote controls, right !?!😃

[freeze16172002]

13 hours ago, tiderider said:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/grange-golf-club-adelaide-liv-event-excessive-damage?utm_medium=email&utm_source=050823&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM39497&uuid=801caa60b6dd40c4856fa6daffec072d

 

Craig has been a member of The Grange for 45 years, and although he was pleased with the spotlight the 54-hole tournament brought to his club, he’s less than pleased with nearly everything else.

“We’re not a charity, we’re a private club, and I don’t think we’ve been compensated adequately,” he said. "We’re going to have a mess for six months and then it’s going to be back again."

 

i, for one, am shocked ... 

And they wonder why no one takes it seriously. They want ranking points for this. Golf but Louder

Edited May 9, 2023 by freeze16172002

[smashdn]

15 hours ago, johnseg said:

I continue to be amazed at the people on here that do not understand the position of the PGA Tour. They did exactly what they should have done.

 

Except they didn't take the meeting.  Even if you had no intention of working with LIV, you could have had the opportunity to hear what they were planning (to an extent) and been in a better position to defend yourself.

 

There is probably a Sun Tzu quote about that.

 

Even if they did do what they had to do, the PGAT did not come out in the best light either.

[smashdn]

13 hours ago, tiderider said:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/grange-golf-club-adelaide-liv-event-excessive-damage?utm_medium=email&utm_source=050823&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM39497&uuid=801caa60b6dd40c4856fa6daffec072d

 

Craig has been a member of The Grange for 45 years, and although he was pleased with the spotlight the 54-hole tournament brought to his club, he’s less than pleased with nearly everything else.

“We’re not a charity, we’re a private club, and I don’t think we’ve been compensated adequately,” he said. "We’re going to have a mess for six months and then it’s going to be back again."

 

i, for one, am shocked ... 

 

10 hours ago, BNGL said:

If you look back in prior posts of mine you’ll see I talk about those members, this guy is the ring leader imo. Didn’t click the link don’t have to read the story I can almost guarantee you he’s the vocal leader of the minority. Every year after we’d host the Tour a couple members would come to the club, “lots of damage this year can’t play the course for a while…can’t we move it to another course in the area for a year?” Meanwhile 90 percent or more said oh great event place looked great can’t wait to have them back. Every club has members like this guy and if you don’t know who it is…

 

If you read the facebook comments from a few of the members it basically stated what @BNGL has said.  

 

A lot of the damage that was shown (the muddy ruts) happened after the event from the membership as they are using a second course to park on while the LIV infrastructure is in the club parking lot (according to the member posts).

[smashdn]

20 minutes ago, freeze16172002 said:

And they wonder why no one takes it seriously. They want ranking points for this. Golf but Louder

 

I know I am clutching my pearls.  Something like the above has never happened before and should not be tolerated.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

13 hours ago, tiderider said:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/grange-golf-club-adelaide-liv-event-excessive-damage?utm_medium=email&utm_source=050823&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM39497&uuid=801caa60b6dd40c4856fa6daffec072d

 

Craig has been a member of The Grange for 45 years, and although he was pleased with the spotlight the 54-hole tournament brought to his club, he’s less than pleased with nearly everything else.

“We’re not a charity, we’re a private club, and I don’t think we’ve been compensated adequately,” he said. "We’re going to have a mess for six months and then it’s going to be back again."

 

i, for one, am shocked ... 

Love how Westwood is saying it's all Golf Digest nonsense --- was reported by an Australian outlet and here is the UK version.  https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/golf/liv-golf-adelaide-course-damage-29927432

[Ole3wiggle]

51 minutes ago, freeze16172002 said:

And they wonder why no one takes it seriously. They want ranking points for this. Golf but Louder

 

From the very article you linked out to:

 

86% of members were satisfied or very satisfied with the event. Terrible journalism and again trying to spin something with a false headline when there's nothing there. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Ole3wiggle

[1t2golf]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Except they didn't take the meeting.  Even if you had no intention of working with LIV, you could have had the opportunity to hear what they were planning (to an extent) and been in a better position to defend yourself.

 

There is probably a Sun Tzu quote about that.

 

Even if they did do what they had to do, the PGAT did not come out in the best light either.

 

"Know thy self, know thy enemy, ..."

 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Except they didn't take the meeting.  Even if you had no intention of working with LIV, you could have had the opportunity to hear what they were planning (to an extent) and been in a better position to defend yourself.

 

 

Naive and only makes sense if you want to help LIV play the victim.  Hashed and rehashed for over a year.  Nothing in it at all for anyone from the PGA Tour to "meet" with "LIV" - it was already obvious what LIV was all about and has been from the outset.

[jimecherry]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

I know I am clutching my pearls.  Something like the above has never happened before and should not be tolerated.

 

 

 

 

 

think we'll see this scene at the byron nelson this year they just added a stadium to one of their holes?

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

And they wonder why no one takes it seriously. They want ranking points for this. Golf but Louder

 

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

 

If you read the facebook comments from a few of the members it basically stated what @BNGL has said.  

 

A lot of the damage that was shown (the muddy ruts) happened after the event from the membership as they are using a second course to park on while the LIV infrastructure is in the club parking lot (according to the member posts).

 

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

I know I am clutching my pearls.  Something like the above has never happened before and should not be tolerated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Love how Westwood is saying it's all Golf Digest nonsense --- was reported by an Australian outlet and here is the UK version.  https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/golf/liv-golf-adelaide-course-damage-29927432

 

Can't say I find this too interesting. Have been at a club that hosted PGAT events. You would have no trouble finding members that were unhappy about hosting the event that would go on record and be interviewed. Thing is usually the media can't be bothered to cover such a story. 

 

Maybe LIV is way different and I am missing something, but in general hosting an event sucks for the members (they lose the course during before and after) and damages the course in some way. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by 2bGood

[ThinkingPlus]

15 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

think we'll see this scene at the byron nelson this year they just added a stadium to one of their holes?

I seriously doubt it.

[dcmidnight]

Only 7 percent were dissatisfied? Makes me wonder how many people have been a member at a private club somewhere.

 

Our club could give away free food and booze and at least ten percent of people would be dissatisfied and have something to complain about.