Prevailing Instruction vs Enjoying Golf

[Nickc]

Rather than thinking of hitting the ball (hard or not) I would advocate just thinking about 'swinging through the ball' preferably to a 'perfect finish'.

[bladehunter]

On 8/26/2022 at 12:23 AM, mikpga said:

Part is teaching, part is student…

 

Ideally, a team is formed and trust is developed…

 

99.9% of my students are not playing golf for a living…

 

Okay, 100% 😜

 

Some students desire too much “why”…

 

Some teachers express too much…

 

 

Is there ever too much why though ?    Why is the cornerstone human question.  I’ve always believed if a student , child or other less knowledgeable person can ask it , they’re ready for at least a version of the answer.  You of course temper it to their understanding level.  That leaves you an out for the rarity case that can’t handle the truth.  You can alwasy be truthful and say “ you’re not equipped to handle that info yet. “. If that runs them off. It’s their issue.  But just a blanket “because I said so “ won’t cut it.  It erodes trust.  Which is a must. 
 

just food for thought.  

[jholz]

I've come to the point where I'm ready to say that balance - and the ability to maintain balance throughout the swing - is the foundation of decent golf.

 

I'd say it's a topic that I rarely see directly addressed in most golf instruction. It's always taken as a given - or something ancillary.

 

I know that my own process of "digging it out of the dirt" was greatly informed by thinking more about balance and working to achieve it. 

 

 

[TravAz]

On 8/27/2022 at 6:32 PM, Tanner25 said:

I might be going off on a tangent. But, play the right tees for your distance. I played the Sr tees today on my favorite course and really enjoyed it. 

I shanked one, and hit a 40yd pull/hook both with a PW yesterday. What tees should I play? 😆

 

To the OP's point:

I'm sure it's fairly well known and named concept (I just don't know it) but there is a paradox about expecting to be good at something. When you expect to do well, and you do well, there is little joy in it because it was expected. When you expect to do well and don't there is alot of frustration because you 'failed'. I'm not quite there with golf, but I do really try to enjoy being out in the sunshine and spending time with friends and getting some exercise when the ball isn't going where I want it to. 

[Ri_Redneck]

Two things make the golf swing difficult.

 

1. You have to hit a small stationary object at a specific spot on the face of the club with a fair degree of accuracy.

 

2. You have to present the face of the club in the proper alignment with the target at a high rate of speed.

 

Aside from these two things, you're just swinging a stick! Why should hitting a golf ball be any different? Give most people a stick and they can swing it pretty fast. Sit a can on the ground in front of them and most people can whack the heck out of that can. Have them do it repeatedly and you will also find they make a very repeatable swing each time. While they're whacking the cans, show them how an extended lead arm allows them to swing in a more accurate manner. Also show them how the can tends to fly in close alignment with their shoulder line at impact. This pretty much takes care of #1.

 

Now give them a golf club. Have them take particular notice to how their hands fit together on the grip and have them whack a ball off a tee. Watch where the ball flies. If it slices, have them rotate the grip counterclockwise (clockwise for lefty), in small amounts, in their hands till it flies pretty straight. If it hooks, have them incrementally rotate the grip clockwise (counterclockwise for lefty), in small amounts, in their hands till it flies fairly straight. This takes care of #2.

 

This is literally all a recreational golfer needs to know about the swing. It will allow them to have reasonable control over where the ball goes and know how to adjust if they happen to get "out of whack" during a round. Chipping, pitching and putting will have to be worked on, but they will have a swing that works and they will be able to go out and have a good time.

 

BT

[RoyalTroon]

On 8/26/2022 at 12:09 PM, Zitlow said:

In my view the swing is being taught as a series of isolated  positions instead of a synergistic motion.

 

Motions rule, positions fool.

 

15 hours ago, Nickc said:

Rather than thinking of hitting the ball (hard or not) I would advocate just thinking about 'swinging through the ball' preferably to a 'perfect finish'.

 

Simple as club finds ball, or ball finds club. 

[mikpga]

13 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Is there ever too much why though ?    Why is the cornerstone human question.  I’ve always believed if a student , child or other less knowledgeable person can ask it , they’re ready for at least a version of the answer.  You of course temper it to their understanding level.  That leaves you an out for the rarity case that can’t handle the truth.  You can alwasy be truthful and say “ you’re not equipped to handle that info yet. “. If that runs them off. It’s their issue.  But just a blanket “because I said so “ won’t cut it.  It erodes trust.  Which is a must. 
 

just food for thought.  

I suppose when I stated “too much why”, it was more of the inability to stay focused on the one task being asked of them.  For example, we are prioritizing path, and then they start straying off to questions that are not pertinent to the task.  If that makes sense?  Kind of like a child who keeps asking “why?”

[4thand11]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:02 AM, Nickc said:

Rather than thinking of hitting the ball (hard or not) I would advocate just thinking about 'swinging through the ball' preferably to a 'perfect finish'.

 

This may be semantics but I think it may depend on the player.  Some people hear "swing through the ball" and it brings to mind a slow, easy motion.  Of course you want the swing to be fluid, but many players interpret this as "slow" and they lose swing speed, distance, and it also can mess with the swing path.

 

Look at it this way.  In baseball you are also swinging through the ball, to a finishing position.  But almost no one thinks about a baseball swing that way.  You think about hitting the ball.  As hard as you can. 

 

Same with a hockey slap shot, which has similarities to hitting a golf ball in that the puck is sitting on the ground.  Most good hockey players don't consciously think about much when taking a slap shot except hitting it hard in a certain direction.  This thought often takes care of all the other stuff people spend too much time thinking about mid-swing in golf (weight shift, hand positions, wrist angles, etc.)

Edited December 13, 2022 by 4thand11

[Nickc]

On 12/13/2022 at 3:53 PM, 4thand11 said:

 

This may be semantics but I think it may depend on the player.  Some people hear "swing through the ball" and it brings to mind a slow, easy motion.  Of course you want the swing to be fluid, but many players interpret this as "slow" and they lose swing speed, distance, and it also can mess with the swing path.

 

Look at it this way.  In baseball you are also swinging through the ball, to a finishing position.  But almost no one thinks about a baseball swing that way.  You think about hitting the ball.  As hard as you can. 

 

Same with a hockey slap shot, which has similarities to hitting a golf ball in that the puck is sitting on the ground.  Most good hockey players don't consciously think about much when taking a slap shot except hitting it hard in a certain direction.  This thought often takes care of all the other stuff people spend too much time thinking about mid-swing in golf (weight shift, hand positions, wrist angles, etc.)

To each his own ..though I am of the opinion that in golf the hit impulse can ruin many a swing.

[RichieHunt]

It can swing both ways (no pun intended).  I knew nothing about the swing as a junior golfer.  I didn't even know that a divot should be in front of the ball.  The good part was that it allowed me to be one of the best juniors in the state and play college golf.  The bad news was that after a car accident and some health problems I lost my swing and didn't know how to get it back.  To make matters worse, I didn't know what instructors knew what they were talking about versus those that didn't have a clue.  The result was years of never being as good as I was from age 16-19 with any semblance of consistency.

 

I will say that the serious, diligent teachers today...the ones that are constantly researching the swing and how to instruct students...are getting much better at not only understanding the science of the swing, but the science of developing a student's swing so they can progress more quickly and not think as much on the course.

 

There's still a lot of unknown out there, but they are getting better.  And a big part of that is now with the much improved measuring devices instructors are now teaching students more of the reality of what is going on in the golf swing.  That allows the student to have less thoughts because there is less conflict between what they are trying to do and what they actually need to do.

 

 

 

 

RH

[aggiegolfer21]

Sounds like the Manuel de la Torre method is going to be the best for your friend and others like her.  Very simple and club focused.  Expectation management is also very critical, if you go into a round thinking you shouldn't make any mistakes then you'll try to fix every mistake.  If you go into a round knowing that mistakes are inevitable then it is much easier to move on after a bad shot.

[bekgolf]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:20 AM, juliette91 said:

For a game millions hope to enjoy and achieve no thoughts swing feely find your natural swing feel feel feel your rhythm and tempo and balance swing away joy--instruction seems to me to be quite the opposite:  thoughts, positions, angles, more "don'ts" and then dos" than you could possibly remember if your very life depended on it.  Not quite the recipe for enjoying the game.  

 

I've a life long friend who has been "playing" for 20 years, who has had a lot of instruction, and who just quit in the middle of a recent round--in tears (don't you guys get too hung up on women crying, it's not what you think). She had so many swing thoughts in her head, so many do this don't do that commands floating around her swing looked just awful.  No flow, no rhythm, nothing natural about it and above all no joy.  Sure, some of us are much more geared to score than others, some of us much more anxious when playing around others, some of us with golf perfomance anxieties, the list goes on we're all different, but where, where are the instructors who will keep away from comparing your swing to Brooke Henderson's balance or Nelly Korda's swing positions or Luke Donald's tempo---sometimes in side by side video with yours! as a teaching guide.  Where are those instructors who will ask questions about what it would take for you (reasonably setting this bar) to enjoy the game and try to find some natural ability you have and work with that to fashion some kind of swing that achieves your enjoyment goals?

 

Lots of run on sentences and free verse here but you get the picture.  Yes I'm sad for my friend who is just completely stuck now with a head full of often contrary instruction and whose natural abilities are hampered by so many dos and don'ts.

 

Is there a way to teach less and less instead of more and more.  I mean some people might love to figure out each of the proper positions during the swing and that brings them the greatest enjoyment if those are achieved.  And un-learning so many swing thoughts will be very hard indeed, but where does joy come in and how can instruction tailor itself to nudging a player in the right direction instead of providing a 40 page manual.?

 

IMO your friend would be well served to find an instructor she clicks with, someone who explains things in a way that works for her.  It doesn't sound like it's happened yet. 

 

I would say the biggest mistake I made when I started golfing (late 30's, the golf swing wasn't natural to me at all) was putting all my trust into a teaching pro who gave me far too much information and in a way that was difficult to understand.  He taught TGM aka The Golfing Machine, it wasn't for me.  I still have the book, it's a difficult read.

 

This thread is a few months old, I hope your friend hasn't given up.  Golf is fun no matter what but it's more fun when good shots are being made.

[Ghost of Snead]

On 8/25/2022 at 12:20 PM, juliette91 said:

For a game millions hope to enjoy and achieve no thoughts swing feely find your natural swing feel feel feel your rhythm and tempo and balance swing away joy--instruction seems to me to be quite the opposite:  thoughts, positions, angles, more "don'ts" and then dos" than you could possibly remember if your very life depended on it.  Not quite the recipe for enjoying the game.  

 

I've a life long friend who has been "playing" for 20 years, who has had a lot of instruction, and who just quit in the middle of a recent round--in tears (don't you guys get too hung up on women crying, it's not what you think). She had so many swing thoughts in her head, so many do this don't do that commands floating around her swing looked just awful.  No flow, no rhythm, nothing natural about it and above all no joy.  Sure, some of us are much more geared to score than others, some of us much more anxious when playing around others, some of us with golf perfomance anxieties, the list goes on we're all different, but where, where are the instructors who will keep away from comparing your swing to Brooke Henderson's balance or Nelly Korda's swing positions or Luke Donald's tempo---sometimes in side by side video with yours! as a teaching guide.  Where are those instructors who will ask questions about what it would take for you (reasonably setting this bar) to enjoy the game and try to find some natural ability you have and work with that to fashion some kind of swing that achieves your enjoyment goals?

 

Lots of run on sentences and free verse here but you get the picture.  Yes I'm sad for my friend who is just completely stuck now with a head full of often contrary instruction and whose natural abilities are hampered by so many dos and don'ts.

 

Is there a way to teach less and less instead of more and more.  I mean some people might love to figure out each of the proper positions during the swing and that brings them the greatest enjoyment if those are achieved.  And un-learning so many swing thoughts will be very hard indeed, but where does joy come in and how can instruction tailor itself to nudging a player in the right direction instead of providing a 40 page manual.?

 

If she's quitting in tears in a game that's supposed to be fun, tell her to drop the instruction all together and go back to basics on her own. No idea what other sports she plays, but does she quit a game of tennis when she hits a couple of bad backhands or serves ? Quit bowling if she doesn't knock all the pins down ? I bet not. 

 

Lots of golfers get lost in the weeds of golf instruction but most are not cut out to weed out what is right for them. Simplify.

[orr444]

On 12/18/2022 at 1:04 PM, aggiegolfer21 said:

Sounds like the Manuel de la Torre method is going to be the best for your friend and others like her.  Very simple and club focused.  Expectation management is also very critical, if you go into a round thinking you shouldn't make any mistakes then you'll try to fix every mistake.  If you go into a round knowing that mistakes are inevitable then it is much easier to move on after a bad shot.

what do you mean by club focus?

[Jeselnik]

Can somebody tell me how I’m supposed to respond honestly to the OP without getting banned?  In my defense,  I was raised by wolves and didnt have a fairy godmother.

 

Here goes…………Your friend is very brave and its not her fault.  Maybe golf isn’t her sport but there is something out there for her, there is something out there for everybody……..

 

 

Next !!!

 

 

 

[MountainKing]

53 minutes ago, Jeselnik said:

Can somebody tell me how I’m supposed to respond honestly to the OP without getting banned?  In my defense,  I was raised by wolves and didnt have a fairy godmother.

 

Here goes…………Your friend is very brave and its not her fault.  Maybe golf isn’t her sport but there is something out there for her, there is something out there for everybody……..

 

 

Next !!!

 

 

 

 

Your response is fine.   What you should be banned for is reviving a year old thread to say this nonsense.

[Peter_b]

In my opinion the way is the goal in golf. I ask for help If I can not figure out how to do it when I literally tried everything to get a new view angle. Nothing better to learn how to compress the ball and you figured it out yourself. For me it was Montes Zipper away, Emerys evolved fundamentals, Atrayn on this forum and an impact snap swingtool.  For others it may be another way to find how to do it best. Desperation should only come if all options fail, if you are stuck and if you wont get better or reached what you are happy with. Just opened a putting thread, maximum dead end for me. But no despair, ill find a way even after 13000 putts on the puttmonitor.  

[Louis_Posture]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:20 AM, juliette91 said:

 

 

Is there a way to teach less and less instead of more and more.  

Most current instructors make the swing way too complicated. If you find a competent old time instructor he/she will just teach address technique (grip-posture-alignment). Adherence to these basic address fundamentals allows the player's own natural good looking effective swing to emerge, without ever having any "swing thoughts".

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

Most current instructors make the swing way too complicated. If you find a competent old time instructor he/she will just teach address technique (grip-posture-alignment). Adherence to these basic address fundamentals allows the player's own natural good looking effective swing to emerge, without ever having any "swing thoughts".

 

[PedronNiall]

Mentioned this in another thread, but as difficult as golf may be, there's something missing in too much of the fundamental instruction players receive from many teachers causing it to be far more difficult than necessary. Why are there players who take lessons for months, watch the videos their instructors give them, and hit multiple times a week who still don't have a sound grip, stance, and setup? I took lessons from multiple PGA teaching professionals and was drowned in information without those keys ever being established as they should have been. I fixed my grip myself when the light went on one day that something was off; the YouTube rabbit hole I went down on that alone is insane. How can there be so many poor explanations on how to form a sound grip? 

 

Someone can go to tennis, soccer, basketball, snowboarding, BMX, volleyball, carting, and various other camps starting at zero and come away with a foundation they can build on and continue to get better. There's straightforward video available for almost all of them as well with consistency between instructors when it comes to the fundamentals

Much of what many golfers get after weeks or months of lessons they'll never even break 90 with. Same for taking a dive through all the video that can be searched up. There's something wild about that to me. 

 

I certainly wish more people had the opportunity to come across things like the Easiest Swing method to start with.  Would make the game a lot more enjoyable and provide a much more sound base for building into a solid all-around player for those who want to continue with the game. Would lead to a lot more people playing golf instead of golf swing as well. 

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

Mentioned this in another thread, but as difficult as golf may be, there's something missing in too much of the fundamental instruction players receive from many teachers causing it to be far more difficult than necessary. Why are there players who take lessons for months, watch the videos their instructors give them, and hit multiple times a week who still don't have a sound grip, stance, and setup? I took lessons from multiple PGA teaching professionals and was drowned in information without those keys ever being established as they should have been. I fixed my grip myself when the light went on one day that something was off; the YouTube rabbit hole I went down on that alone is insane. How can there be so many poor explanations on how to form a sound grip? 

 

Someone can go to tennis, soccer, basketball, snowboarding, BMX, volleyball, carting, and various other camps starting at zero and come away with a foundation they can build on and continue to get better. There's straightforward video available for almost all of them as well with consistency between instructors when it comes to the fundamentals

Much of what many golfers get after weeks or months of lessons they'll never even break 90 with. Same for taking a dive through all the video that can be searched up. There's something wild about that to me. 

 

I certainly wish more people had the opportunity to come across things like the Easiest Swing method to start with.  Would make the game a lot more enjoyable and provide a much more sound base for building into a solid all-around player for those who want to continue with the game. Would lead to a lot more people playing golf instead of golf swing as well. 

I believe that the reason is that everyone needs a grip, stance and swing taylored specifically for them.  To much instruction is based on what works for the instructor and not on what will work for the particular student.

[UKGolfer86]

My take on instruction, and i do take a fair bit, is that in the lesson you take on board everything you are told.  You think about each point in detail and do exactly as instructed.  Then when you go away, get 1-2 specific drills to carry on the work from the lesson, if the pro doesnt offer something, then ask.  It may just be continuing the same drill from the lesson, or it may be something a little different to go with it.  But get a demo before and advise on feedback.  Try and do them a couple of times a week, even if just 30 mins.

 

When you turn up to the course to play a round of golf, those thoughts and drills need to be left at home.  Go to the range, hit a few balls to loosen up and to see what ball flight you have today.  Then play with an empty mind.  The reps from the lesson and practice at the range should have had some effect and over time your natural motion should change.

 

But this only works if you are serious about change.  You need to speak to the pro giving your lessons, explain that you want to evolve your swing, not put a 'band-aid' on your current fault.  And then its down to you to put the reps in to make the evolution stick in your subconscious.  Taking a lesson, not doing any practice and expecting your swing to be fine when you go to the course is madness. (not saying that is the issue in this case, but I have seen it with friends).

 

If you try and think about P2 this, P4 that, in the middle of a round, you are toast.  There is not enough time in a swing to be deliberately shaping your body and to make consistent contact.

[me05501]

Playing decent golf requires developing several different specialized skills.

 

Learning to putt well doesn't help you learn to hit good wedges or drive the ball from a tee. Becoming a capable driver of the ball doesn't help your chipping.

 

And those are just the physical skills. A beginner also has to absorb a ton of information that experienced players take for granted.

 

How does the ball behave in the wind?

How might it react when it hits the ground?

How much of a chip shot is carry vs. roll?

How much energy do you have to transfer into the ball to have it roll the desired amount along the greens you're playing on that specific day? 

 

Then you layer on expectations on player behavior. 

 

How long should I bother looking for a lost ball? Should I spend less time looking for my tenth lost ball than my first? 

How do I avoid distracting my playing partners or other groups? 

What are those things you should never ask or tell another player? 

 

All of this can make the golf course a very frustrating place for anyone who doesn't make time to practice these skills regularly. 

 

 

[MelloYello]

On 8/25/2022 at 12:20 PM, juliette91 said:

Where are those instructors who will ask about what it would take for you to enjoy the game and try to find some natural ability you have and work with that to fashion some kind of swing that achieves your enjoyment goals?

 

On the one hand, yes, it makes sense to think in those simple terms, to build a plan around a player's meta-goals, but on the other, people don't have that stuff figured out and it becomes kind of self-referential which isn't great for planning. 

 

"I play golf to have fun so my goals in golf need to maximize having fun so I can play more golf because I like having fun..."

 

At some point you're going to have to go backwards to go forwards. Your friend is going to have to learn that sucking isn't fun. That will motivate work (which also isn't fun). But the resulting golf will be better and that'll be inspiring. But despite the motivation, your friend will eventually get sick of the grind and will slow down to "have more fun." 

 

It's all just a circular process. It just sounds to me like your friend wasn't able to keep the big picture in her head and got lost in more technical stuff. That's not really indicative of a larger problem as much as it speaks to her particular approach which (no offense) sounds like it's a complete mess. 

 

She'll learn from this and (assuming she returns) she'll better prioritize what's important and maybe find a type of instruction that better works for her. 

[me05501]

^^ For sure.

 

Seems like there's nothing less fun than going out on the course and really sucking at golf. Not knowing where the ball is going, not being able to get it off the ground, losing balls, slowing the course down, etc. is way to stressful to be any fun. 

[Zitlow]

If you don't like the prevailing golf instruction just wait a couple months and it will change. 

 

Squat move, motorcycle move, shallowing move, re-center move, power shift move, drop the arms move, swing the arms move, cast the club move, pull the left arm move, turn the left hip move, lead with right elbow move, left arm off chest move, unfold right arm move, shaft lean move and others which I can't think of at the moment. 

 

Did I ever tell y'all about my lesson with Butch Harmon? 

 

 

[Sp4zRX]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

 

 

Squat move, motorcycle move, shallowing move, re-center move, power shift move, drop the arms move, swing the arms move, cast the club move, pull the left arm move, turn the left hip move, lead with right elbow move, left arm off chest move, unfold right arm move, shaft lean move and others which I can't think of at the moment. 

 

It’s like you’re reading my mind as I address the ball. 😂 

[PedronNiall]

12 hours ago, Nels55 said:

I believe that the reason is that everyone needs a grip, stance and swing taylored specifically for them.  To much instruction is based on what works for the instructor and not on what will work for the particular student.

If you look at Easiest Swing, the grip & swing are straightforward and will accommodate the majority of body types, while being a lot easier on the body in general. They can move to a stronger grip later if needed, but other than that not much should change. The stance in that method is suited to the individual because it's based off their normal stride; if they don't know how to walk with their own body then there are bigger issues. The setup to the ball is also straightforward. 

 

If someone goes to the other kinds of camps I mentioned they get universal basics that they can adapt as needed. That's entirely missing in far too much golf instruction. 

 

There's no reason the majority of people who want to simply try the game and have a bit of fun are being taught 10000 positions or shown video of pros and told they need to look like that if they want to hit the ball well. I'm guessing the reason Easiest Swing, its offshoot, and "The Golf Dance" ES is based on don't get a lot of traction because they don't look athletic enough in comparison to more modern swing styles.

 

If I had the money to throw around I'd love to see groups of new players as well as struggling experienced players after 90 days in a number of programs including ES and see who ends up where and who's having the most fun. There's just so much less jargon, swing thought hocus-pocus, and worry about position in the ES family that I don't see how it doesn't win that contest. 

 

Personal feelings aside, I've used Phil's 2 minute or so chipping talk to explain chipping to people when they've asked about their issues and it just clicks. 

We definitely make basic golf harder than it is with all the extra we pile on. It's one thing when dealing with someone who wants a more refined, modern swing, but that's not what those new to the game should be getting exposed to.

[Zitlow]

I lived two blocks away from a driving range in the 1960 area of Houston. One day I was hitting balls and Butch Harmon walked up,  introduced himself and said he was going to start giving lessons at the range. He told me his dad was Claude Harmon who had won a Green Jacket.

 

I asked him how much the lessons were and he said $30, so I said if you have time can I get a lesson now. He said sure. So I'm hitting balls starting with my wedges and he tells me his dad was good friends with Ben Hogan. 

 

As I'm continue to work my way through the bag Butch tells me that he used to watch Ben Hogan hit balls on the range for hours. He said he played golf with Ben Hogan and Ben Hogan gave him some lessons.

 

My swing was pretty grooved and was hitting the ball well, I'm thinking he's impressed with my swing.

 

By now I'm striping some drivers and he tells me that he listened to his dad and Ben Hogan talk about the swing sometimes until 2 or 3 in the morning.

 

After a couple more drivers I say, "Butch, what can you tell me about my swing" thinking he was going to tell me I swung just like Ben Hogan. Instead he says, "you're the most terrible caster I've ever seen." Butch never showed back up to the range after that day. 

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

If you look at Easiest Swing, the grip & swing are straightforward and will accommodate the majority of body types, while being a lot easier on the body in general. They can move to a stronger grip later if needed, but other than that not much should change. The stance in that method is suited to the individual because it's based off their normal stride; if they don't know how to walk with their own body then there are bigger issues. The setup to the ball is also straightforward. 

 

If someone goes to the other kinds of camps I mentioned they get universal basics that they can adapt as needed. That's entirely missing in far too much golf instruction. 

 

There's no reason the majority of people who want to simply try the game and have a bit of fun are being taught 10000 positions or shown video of pros and told they need to look like that if they want to hit the ball well. I'm guessing the reason Easiest Swing, its offshoot, and "The Golf Dance" ES is based on don't get a lot of traction because they don't look athletic enough in comparison to more modern swing styles.

 

If I had the money to throw around I'd love to see groups of new players as well as struggling experienced players after 90 days in a number of programs including ES and see who ends up where and who's having the most fun. There's just so much less jargon, swing thought hocus-pocus, and worry about position in the ES family that I don't see how it doesn't win that contest. 

 

Personal feelings aside, I've used Phil's 2 minute or so chipping talk to explain chipping to people when they've asked about their issues and it just clicks. 

We definitely make basic golf harder than it is with all the extra we pile on. It's one thing when dealing with someone who wants a more refined, modern swing, but that's not what those new to the game should be getting exposed to.

Easiest swing is Brian Sparks?  I read his book a few years ago and watched a ton of his videos and also Julian Mellor.  That stuff did not work for me at all.  There is no one universal swing that works for everyone. 

 

I think that Mike Adams is on the right track with measuring and testing folks to find the best grip and swing for them.  Whatever that swing, setup and grip that is found for a particular student there will be a tour pro who is similar that the student can look at for inspiration.  He says that there are no outliers and that teaching the mythical average tour swing to average golfers is a recipe for disaster.

 

Anyway we disagree a lot here but I certainly respect your viewpoint and in the end you could be right, LOL I ain't no expert!

 

Have you checked out Ron Sisson's videos on youtube?  Same sort of approach that you are advocating and pretty entertaining.