Ping G430 Lofts - Really PING? Other MFGs please note also!

[dsmil]

23 minutes ago, bcjim said:

As I've said before,  the goal is to shorten the range covered by "your irons" so that you also have to buy several (expensive) hybrids and wedges.

 

Yes, this definitely could have been the plan from the start when companies started doing this.  And when a few start doing this, everyone has to join because they don't want it to look like their irons go shorter than another company's irons, especially at the game improvement level.

[animalgolfs]

1 hour ago, Radeon962 said:

And the reason why I start my PXG Gen4 0311XP irons at 6 iron.  
 

Same loft and length as my old 5 iron which is nearly the same loft and length as 4i as my reference set: Ping G25 irons.

 

Ping G425 4i - 38.25” @ 23*
 

PXG G4 0311XP 6i - 38.13” @ 23*

 

I stopped caring about the # on the sole and more about the actual loft and length to give me the yardage gaps I want.  

So now you'll have to figure out head weights - lie angle etc IMO

 

I tried this concept on G710 6i @26* 38.25" as replacement 5i - I just couldn't make it work, as something was just off. I went back & adjusted the lie angle to match as well.

 

 

[SUMM1T]

12 hours ago, Christen_The_Sloop said:

 

My 4-iron is 24 degrees. I have sets where the three iron is 23 degrees. This is just another layer of the clown world we live in.

 

What about the irons before "your time" where the lofts were even weaker? Does that make your 24 4 iron a clown world too? 

[hd.softail]

So bottom lines is this ole dog has to roll with the new tricks...Thanks all for the input/responses, much appreciated!

 

Deefinitely think the G430 in Power Spec is something to look at, especially since PING typically presents a lot of bounce (which will be reduced by power spec) and has gone longer in their irons from 7i up, could be a good fit. Also like the PXG suggestion, emailed them this morning to ask if they can build the XP model to a particular swingweight.

 

Still think in the end I'll be sticking with the Titleist T300 which are now closest to "traditional" which is scary. And have to give kudos to Mizuno for their 923 HL which is long overdue for many golfers, I'm not there yet but will be some day.

Edited October 14, 2022 by hd.softail

[SUMM1T]

58 minutes ago, bcjim said:

As I've said before,  the goal is to shorten the range covered by "your irons" so that you also have to buy several (expensive) hybrids and wedges.

 

Long reach to get to that statement. I haven't seen an increase in hybrid/wedge sales in my business in the last several seasons due to loft changes in irons from OEMs. I have seen less irons doing the same work of more irons though. 

[Spankapotamus redux]

This is one of the reasons I'm in my current set & backup. My bag goes D-4w(16)-4h(22)-5h(25)-6i(26) which I only use for punch outs/bump and run, 7i(30)-Gap(49), 52-56. Backup is pretty much the same. Maltby KE4 Max for primary, Cleveland Launcher CBX for backup. I briefly had a set of PXG 0211 that had specs similar to the new Pings and simply couldn't hit the 6 or 7. Lofts were too jacked. Gaps were ridiculous.

If you're looking for a GI set that's easy to hit and can be easily tweaked to your preferred swingweight, I can't recommend the KE4 Max enough. Best set of GI irons I've ever had. Built the whole set including the 2 hybrids and wedges (Maltby Max Milled) for less than the cost of a set of OEM irons. I'll never go big OEM again.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, SUMM1T said:

 

What about the irons before "your time" where the lofts were even weaker? Does that make your 24 4 iron a clown world too? 

 

So then, just for future reference, when do the stronger lofted iron sets become a "clown world" ?

 

1* increments between the 4 iron and the PW ?

 

 

1 hour ago, SUMM1T said:

 

Long reach to get to that statement. I haven't seen an increase in hybrid/wedge sales in my business in the last several seasons due to loft changes in irons from OEMs. I have seen less irons doing the same work of more irons though. 

 

Less irons doing the same work as more irons ? That suggests to me that the gaps may be increasing and/or too large.

 

Or do more players do what I've done and take out a hybrid and add a wedge ? With all these stronger iron lofts the gap between the 3 wood and the longest iron (of the set) is shrinking.

 

So fewer hybrids(?), no ? And more wedges. Not so ?

 

That would make your (total) combination hybrid/wedge sales the same, yes ?

[OttoVonBizMarkie]

14 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

Tweaked your google search term to say “Loft” to find this listing (instead of specs... which oddly got No search hits for me?)

 

https://www.golfbox.com.au/golf-blog/ping-g430-drivers-fairways-hybrids-irons

 

 

Oh, that’s from an Australian website, so the numbers are based on the metric system, I’m sure the American lofts will be different. 🙃

[SUMM1T]

7 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

So then, just for future reference, when do the stronger lofted iron sets become a "clown world" ?

 

1* increments between the 4 iron and the PW ?

 

 

 

Less irons doing the same work as more irons ? That suggests to me that the gaps may be increasing and/or too large.

 

Or do more players do what I've done and take out a hybrid and add a wedge ? With all these stronger iron lofts the gap between the 3 wood and the longest iron (of the set) is shrinking.

 

So fewer hybrids(?), no ? And more wedges. Not so ?

 

That would make your (total) combination hybrid/wedge sales the same, yes ?

 

I don't know when lofts become "clown world" because I didn't make the statement that they ever did. 

 

Most amateurs need more loft gaps between their irons anyways. Way too many golfers I work with have small gaps, especially in the top end of their bag where their longer irons tend to bunch up. So what I'm seeing with my golfers is less 3 and 4 irons in the bag, strategically putting a 5 iron that works for their setup in the bag and then finding where gaps are and what club fits that gap. I'm starting to see less hybrids make it into the bag and more 5 and 7 woods coming back. I do not see MORE wedges being sold. I see the same number, just different lofts for different golfers. Some have a GW that is 48 and others have a GW that is 52. Or, some don't have a GW because their PW is 47-48 and then they jump to a 54 because it works with their style of game. 

[mjf34g]

As always when it comes to the "loft debate" much to do about nothing. 

[bcjim]

2 hours ago, SUMM1T said:

 

Long reach to get to that statement. I haven't seen an increase in hybrid/wedge sales in my business in the last several seasons due to loft changes in irons from OEMs. I have seen less irons doing the same work of more irons though. 

But over the last decade or more there has sure been an increase in hybrid and wedge sales I bet. Particularly wedges I suspect. And for the vast majority I think buying 3 wedges in addition to your "irons" and at usually greater per club cost, is falling for marketing. Swings inside 100y are nearly all less than full anyway. Golfers get paralysis by analysis trying to decide which of 3 clubs to hit and how big of a swing goes with each from the distance faced.

 

At the other end as you note,  they all start going the same distance.  But at least there, the lie can dictate fw vs hybrid vs long iron.

[SUMM1T]

16 minutes ago, bcjim said:

But over the last decade or more there has sure been an increase in hybrid and wedge sales I bet. Particularly wedges I suspect. And for the vast majority I think buying 3 wedges in addition to your "irons" and at usually greater per club cost, is falling for marketing. Swings inside 100y are nearly all less than full anyway. Golfers get paralysis by analysis trying to decide which of 3 clubs to hit and how big of a swing goes with each from the distance faced.

 

At the other end as you note,  they all start going the same distance.  But at least there, the lie can dictate fw vs hybrid vs long iron.

 

But more hybrid sales in previous seasons replaced fairway woods, which are more expensive. So we traded 17-19 degree 5 woods for hybrids. And wedges are cheaper than irons on average. So taking a 3 and 4 iron out at $185/ea (just for numbers sake) and replacing those two irons with 1 hybrid at $300 is saving some cash. I'm not having my golfers replace both 3 and 4 irons with two separate hybrids because the yardages they were getting out of those irons weren't different enough to justify two hybrids. 

[gator022]

3 hours ago, SUMM1T said:

 

Long reach to get to that statement. I haven't seen an increase in hybrid/wedge sales in my business in the last several seasons due to loft changes in irons from OEMs. I have seen less irons doing the same work of more irons though. 

Are you saying the 5 degree gaps in irons isn’t that big of a deal for the 95-100/5 MPH driver SS guys? Still getting on average 12 yard gaps. Maybe 15 on that perfect shot?

[SUMM1T]

28 minutes ago, gator022 said:

Are you saying the 5 degree gaps in irons isn’t that big of a deal for the 95-100/5 MPH driver SS guys? Still getting on average 12 yard gaps. Maybe 15 on that perfect shot?

 

I'm bending lofts anyways of the clubs during gap testing after my golfers receive clubs to ensure each one is going to yardage we need. But more often than not, I'm having to strengthen longer irons to get them gapped correctly. So the 5* gaps is not something that bothers me. I end up using 4* gaps on most on average. 

[Radeon962]

5 hours ago, animalgolfs said:

So now you'll have to figure out head weights - lie angle etc IMO

 

I tried this concept on G710 6i @26* 38.25" as replacement 5i - I just couldn't make it work, as something was just off. I went back & adjusted the lie angle to match as well.

 

 

Gen4 has a large center weight that is replaceable so no tip weights or lead tape needed.  

 

You can pretty much hit any weight you need using weights from the secondary market which makes swapping shafts, different lengths, midsize vs standard grips, etc. very easy as you do it after everything is assembled.

 

Lie angle is based off length I play from previous fitting. Gen4 can be adjusted at least 3* either way so it has been a non-issue.  
 

Bounce becomes an issue with loft as they are high bounce to begin with like the Pings so if you go more than 2* strong or weak in loft you need to pay attention to turf interaction.

 

Spec wise PXG is very similar to Ping specs they just feel and sound a lot better.

 

 

[Radeon962]

2 hours ago, gator022 said:

Are you saying the 5 degree gaps in irons isn’t that big of a deal for the 95-100/5 MPH driver SS guys? Still getting on average 12 yard gaps. Maybe 15 on that perfect shot?

It’s not only loft gaps but length gaps as most OEM’s not only make their longer irons stronger lofted but also longer than the old 37.75”-38” 5 iron.

 

PXG stock G4 0311XP 5 iron is 20* @ 38.75” like an old 3 iron or possibly even an old 2 iron if you go back to say the Titleist DCI 962.

 

I don’t know many that would want to try or could hit the Gen4 3 iron with any consistency at the stock loft and length.

 

I try to follow the old 24/38 rule from Tom Wishon that says most golfers can’t consistently hit an iron that is longer than 38” or with less loft than 24* and build from that as my longest iron.  
 

Whether I use 1/2” steps or 3/8” steps between is whatever seems to be working for my swing that season. 
 

With the newer breed of irons with hollow, larger, hotter faces 1/2” step and 4* gaps on the long irons and 5* gaps in the short irons seems to provide me the consistent 12-15 yard gaps between successive irons for my swing.

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Radeon962

[jholz]

I hate loft creep. It's a sham. That's my position. I'll hold it till the day I die. 

 

46* is 46* 

 

 

[Dpavs]

Depending on how they perform, peak height and spin I can ignore the loft as it's just another number. Yes it will undoubtedly affect the spin but not perhaps as much as one might think without testing them. The biggest issue I have had with ping GI's is the amount of bounce...I don't like or get along with how much bounce they been putting on them and the thought of putting even more bounce on them just makes me cringe.

[jholz]

42 minutes ago, Dpavs said:

Depending on how they perform, peak height and spin I can ignore the loft as it's just another number. Yes it will undoubtedly affect the spin but not perhaps as much as one might think without testing them. The biggest issue I have had with ping GI's is the amount of bounce...I don't like or get along with how much bounce they been putting on them and the thought of putting even more bounce on them just makes me cringe.

 

Is it bounce or simply the sole width? Psychosomatic?

 

i know I struggled with Ping's "chunky toes" for a long time. Couldn't handle it.

 

But damn, those Eye 2's hit the ball on line.

 

I've got Pings in the bag today. Not sure what to say about that. 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by jholz

[Nessism]

56 minutes ago, jholz said:

I hate loft creep. It's a sham. That's my position. I'll hold it till the day I die. 

 

46* is 46* 

 

 

Yup.  Yup.  Yup.

 

I very relunctly bought some PXG Gen3 XP irons recently, strong lofts and all.  Those heads have a narrower sole though, so bending weak should be less issue than these 430's.  

 

Again, I refuse to buy two gap wedges.  Period.  I respect that some people don't care what number is on the sole, but I do.  

[jholz]

16 minutes ago, Nessism said:

Yup.  Yup.  Yup.

 

I very relunctly bought some PXG Gen3 XP irons recently, strong lofts and all.  Those heads have a narrower sole though, so bending weak should be less issue than these 430's.  

 

Again, I refuse to buy two gap wedges.  Period.  I respect that some people don't care what number is on the sole, but I do.  

 

It's really just a matter of what will fit in with what you've already got. 

 

I like my wedge setup and the top end of my bag. 

 

Give me an iron set that will reasonably fit into that. 

 

Don't make me buy an entirely new bag to match your f'ed up lofts. 

[Dpavs]

1 hour ago, jholz said:

 

Is it bounce or simply the sole width? Psychosomatic?

 

i know I struggled with Ping's "chunky toes" for a long time. Couldn't handle it.

 

But damn, those Eye 2's hit the ball on line.

 

I've got Pings in the bag today. Not sure what to say about that. 

 

 

I really do think it is the amount of bounce... I play off some very tight fairways and too much bounce generally means your error is going to be a horribly thinned shot. I would much rather take it a little fat on a miss than hitting it so thin. Might just be me though 🙂

[gator022]

7 hours ago, Radeon962 said:

It’s not only loft gaps but length gaps as most OEM’s not only make their longer irons stronger lofted but also longer than the old 37.75”-38” 5 iron.

 

PXG stock G4 0311XP 5 iron is 20* @ 38.75” like an old 3 iron or possibly even an old 2 iron if you go back to say the Titleist DCI 962.

 

I don’t know many that would want to try or could hit the Gen4 3 iron with any consistency at the stock loft and length.

 

I try to follow the old 24/38 rule from Tom Wishon that says most golfers can’t consistently hit an iron that is longer than 38” or with less loft than 24* and build from that as my longest iron.  
 

Whether I use 1/2” steps or 3/8” steps between is whatever seems to be working for my swing that season. 
 

With the newer breed of irons with hollow, larger, hotter faces 1/2” step and 4* gaps on the long irons and 5* gaps in the short irons seems to provide me the consistent 12-15 yard gaps between successive irons for my swing.

 

Going by the Wishon rule, which isn’t a bad idea at all, basically all players distance or GI irons should stop at 6 iron. Maybe maybe 5 iron for better players or great ball strikers.  Is that a fair assessment?

[Valtiel]

On 10/13/2022 at 6:17 PM, Christen_The_Sloop said:

 

Generations of golfers will never know the testes swell that comes with a pured long iron. 

Walking after your tee shot like...

[Radeon962]

47 minutes ago, gator022 said:

Going by the Wishon rule, which isn’t a bad idea at all, basically all players distance or GI irons should stop at 6 iron. Maybe maybe 5 iron for better players or great ball strikers.  Is that a fair assessment?

That would be my opinion.

 

I had played 5-GW for many years and switched to 6-GW this year when I moved to the XP’s since the 6 is basically the same as my previous 5 iron.  
 

Gaps between irons got a bit more with about 15 yards between but if I take more club and make a smooth swing, the results are typically better.

 

Added a driver, 3w and 17* and 21* Callaway UW’s on the top end and CBX ZipCore 53 & 58 on the other end plus a putter so only 13 clubs but it worked well for me this past season.  
 

Had confidence in every club in my bag which is nice for a change.

[jholz]

On 10/14/2022 at 5:08 PM, Dpavs said:

 

I really do think it is the amount of bounce... I play off some very tight fairways and too much bounce generally means your error is going to be a horribly thinned shot. I would much rather take it a little fat on a miss than hitting it so thin. Might just be me though 🙂

 

Sorry for taking a few days to get back to you. Had the illness which shall not be named... Spent many days outside at the golf course away from people, my computer, and utilizing WRX to kill time at work. If I could only be "sick" most of the time...

 

Anyhoo, I do feel you here. I think Ping is more of a leap of faith. You look at them, you don't think they are going to work...then you go out and hit them.

 

I grew up playing on concrete fairways in Colorado. In those conditions, I wanted the thinnest sole, least bounce option available. I favored Hogan MB's and then found Izzo - a Colorado company - for irons. Wouldn't play anything else.

 

Then I moved to the southeast.

 

Where I lived in Alabama, you were playing on concrete to swamps and everything in between depending on weather and topography. Took me three solid years to adapt to both altitude and conditions.

 

Now I'm in the soft and soggy mid-Atlantic - where you can still get some tight, concrete lies in certain places.

 

Overall, moving around the country and having extended playing time in different regions has been a real learning experience. So many different conditions to take into account. One easily gets lost.

 

For me, and I think a lot of people, Ping's traditional sole design philosophy just cuts through the mess. Hit a nice, consistent, descending blow on the ball, and the Ping soles help to smooth things out. 

[Bad9]

On 10/13/2022 at 4:15 PM, boggyman said:

They’re just playing catch-up. Unless one decides to play a so called “players” iron, jacked lofts are the norm and here to stay, thin faced and all. Get over it and/or move forward folks! 

Titleist has had sets with 2 gap wedges for years

Edited October 17, 2022 by Bad9

[boggyman]

27 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

Titleist has had sets with 2 gap wedges for years

As has Callaway but it doesn’t really matter to me. I’m playing 21-49* with a 55* SW on my current set. 12, clubs with absolutely no issues. I’ve played strong lofted sets with no issues whatsoever in the past, Rogue X. Know “your” distance and pick the correct stick accordingly. Hit ‘em straight!

[nitram]

PING and everyone else will continue to do this until the golfers of the world stop buying them. Hopefully before too long we reach the point where no one is interested in a 30 deg. 8-iron. Until then, it'll keep happening.

[hwturner17]

I understand the gut reaction to "loft jacking", but you can't look at loft numbers without taking CG location into account. It's a mix of factors designed to provide more height and distance to those who need it. 

 

In addition, you should never gap your set based on lofts. Just base it on distances and this is a non issue