True or False: If Scheffler could putt, he'd be the closest thing to prime Tiger of the last 25 years?

[mosesgolf]

1 hour ago, LimaSierra said:

Tiger wasn't 14/14 after 54 hole leads in majors. 2009 PGA

 

Regardless this wasn't my point

Yes. Tiger was 14/14.  He held the 3rd round lead at the 2009 PGA but lost to YE Yang.  If you count the 2009 PGA Tiger would be 14/15.  2019 Masters is the only Major Tiger won without holding the 3rd round lead.

[Ferguson]

1 hour ago, IndyArcher said:

I love watching Scottie, and he is my favorite player to follow currently. That said, he doesn't seem have the domineering presence on the course that Tiger did, IMO. Regarding his putting, I have heard a number of different projections, including from different commentators this weekend. SO many of his putts were right there, but just not in. It doesn't strike me as some major flaw, but I'm not more of an expert than anyone else, so I sure don't know. Whatever it is, I sure hope he can create some greater consistency. Scottie with a hot Scotty would be fun to watch!

 

Hmm?   Putting is ~41-42% of score.   

 

 

[R_Swanson]

40 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

 

Hmm?   Putting is ~41-42% of score.   

 

 

 

But is it?  Scottie had the best round of the day on Sunday (by 3 shots) while being 53rd in SG putting... however he was 1st in SG off the tee, approach to green, tee to green and total.

 

The guy had no 3 putts.  He did miss a 4 footer for birdie.  I assume the odds of making that are above 90%... a miss like that probably craters your SG: Putting.

 

I'd love to see how the stat is weighted.  I can't find any real info on the 'ol interwebz.

 

Scottie made one long birdie putt, but wasnt making many 10-12 footers - but he was first in SG approach and 9th in SG Around the green.  So he was leaving himself long putts or short putts. 

 

A big assumption here, but I'd bet that SG: Putting favors guys that make a lot of 8-12 footers.

[aenemated]

8 hours ago, Ferguson said:

If Scheffler could do this and if Scheffler could do that, he'd be this, that and the other thing. 

 

"Balls!" cried the Queen. "If I had 'em, I'd be King!" 

[smashdn]

Gonna say false.  Nothing about Scheffler screams "ice water" and I have yet to see him toy with a playing partner mentally nor just absolutely (proverbially) step on an opponent's throat the way Tiger did/could.

[Ferguson]

1 hour ago, R_Swanson said:

 

But is it?  Scottie had the best round of the day on Sunday (by 3 shots) while being 53rd in SG putting... however he was 1st in SG off the tee, approach to green, tee to green and total.

 

The guy had no 3 putts.  He did miss a 4 footer for birdie.  I assume the odds of making that are above 90%... a miss like that probably craters your SG: Putting.

 

I'd love to see how the stat is weighted.  I can't find any real info on the 'ol interwebz.

 

Scottie made one long birdie putt, but wasnt making many 10-12 footers - but he was first in SG approach and 9th in SG Around the green.  So he was leaving himself long putts or short putts. 

 

A big assumption here, but I'd bet that SG: Putting favors guys that make a lot of 8-12 footers.

 

 

The 8-12 footer range has always been the sweet zone where speed "outweighs" line. 

One thing  about watching Woods putt in his prime - his putts went down with speed (firm, not aggressive). 

Also, Woods knew how he missed and why he missed, he was never baffled.

 

 

Scheffler looks confused at all times (make or miss). 

 

[jimecherry]

1 hour ago, R_Swanson said:

 

But is it?  Scottie had the best round of the day on Sunday (by 3 shots) while being 53rd in SG putting... however he was 1st in SG off the tee, approach to green, tee to green and total.

 

The guy had no 3 putts.  He did miss a 4 footer for birdie.  I assume the odds of making that are above 90%... a miss like that probably craters your SG: Putting.

 

I'd love to see how the stat is weighted.  I can't find any real info on the 'ol interwebz.

 

Scottie made one long birdie putt, but wasnt making many 10-12 footers - but he was first in SG approach and 9th in SG Around the green.  So he was leaving himself long putts or short putts. 

 

A big assumption here, but I'd bet that SG: Putting favors guys that make a lot of 8-12 footers.

in the literal since if you have 30 putts in a round where you score 68 putting is 44 percent your score. however if you then say a great putting round is 23-26 putts you get 35-39 percent on that same 68. so however you cut it putting is more than a third of a good round and its less of a good round the better your putting.

[smashdn]

5 hours ago, bladehunter said:

True. Or definitely the closest thing since Spieth 1.0.  He has it all. He needs to go to someone and work putting as a separate game.  And possibly look into different equipment options there.  With the putter tech ( LAB ) that’s coming down the pipe.. he needs to isolate how much of this is misreads and how much is missing line or pace.  

 

Might be worthy of another thread or not, but reading this got me to thinking.

 

With all of the seeming advances in putting tech (lab, mallets, computer designed, face milling tech, shafts, grips, etc.) would we say that professionals as a whole are better putters now than say 40ish years ago, and are the best putters either now or then, better than those from the other timeframe?

[Ronnie Mundt]

I’m not a huge fan of SS for various reasons but I’m so out of it I thought he WAS a phenomenal putter. Then I’ve started to watch more intently over the last few weeks and man he’s missed so many short putts is crazy. Like if he would have made 25% of the 4-6 footers I’ve seen him miss I’m pretty sure he’d be on a multi-week winning streak. I think if anything it shows my ignorance AND the fact that he hasn’t missed the center of a clubface with all of his other clubs for close to two years now.

[PowderedToastMan]

Tiger putted like a God AND hit it better than Scottie. 

 

That being said, if Scottie gets the flatstick working, he'll pass Brooks in majors within five years. 

[IndyArcher]

2 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

Hmm?   Putting is ~41-42% of score.   

 

 

 

How many lip outs has he had in recent rounds? Several that I've seen. His distance gauging is fantastic, and his general read is accurate in terms of slope. Compared to Thompson who sent a lot of puts way beyond the hole and left several well above/below, Scheffler's putting was significantly better. It was still off, but not by a significant amount. It's not horseshoes, though, so it still didn't help him. I don't think it will take much refining for him to start sinking more putts, and when he does, it will be at the top much more consistently. Just my thinking. 

[bscinstnct]

10 hours ago, Ferguson said:

If Scheffler could do this and if Scheffler could do that, he'd be this, that and the other thing. 

Same thing can be said about anyone. 

 

Tiger had the complete game.

Scheffler has an incomplete game. 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

🤣 🍻 

Edited June 5, 2023 by bscinstnct

[R_Swanson]

1 hour ago, jimecherry said:

in the literal since if you have 30 putts in a round where you score 68 putting is 44 percent your score. however if you then say a great putting round is 23-26 putts you get 35-39 percent on that same 68. so however you cut it putting is more than a third of a good round and its less of a good round the better your putting.

 

The entire point of the SG stats are that this isn't how golf works.

[R_Swanson]

1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

 

 

The 8-12 footer range has always been the sweet zone where speed "outweighs" line. 

One thing  about watching Woods putt in his prime - his putts went down with speed (firm, not aggressive). 

Also, Woods knew how he missed and why he missed, he was never baffled.

 

 

Scheffler looks confused at all times (make or miss). 

 

Scheffler isnt Woods. 

 

And the point isn't your (or my) opinion of how his putting looks.  Its what SG: Putting actually tells us, and where the stat starts to skew in certain directions for certain players.

[HomaComa]

On 6/4/2023 at 3:08 PM, LimaSierra said:

Scheffler hits the ball UNBELIEVABLY. His ballstriking stats are seriously out of this world. Scheffler is #1 in almost every category and he is further away from #2 than #2 is to 25th.

 

He is a machine who constantly is in contention, but always seems to lose too many strokes with the flatstick

Your threads give me a headache. It’s something my 9 year old nephew would write up after watching a golf tournament. It’s either clickbait posts or Rory worshiping. 

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I count 3 times Tiger was over 3 sg .  Does someone have the numbers for prior to 2004 that you’re counting?

 

If Scheffler could putt he’d be pushing it.  He leads the tour in SG and is losing just a bout a quarter stroke per round putting.

pssh, that swing looks like Scheffler’s stock follow through.🤣

2006-2009 being four of those seasons, with a bit of a gift that the 2008 season was on track to be one of the best but obviously got derailed, so we'll call that 3.5 seasons to be nice, heh. 2003 was estimated at +3.20-ish and the three seasons of 2000-2002 were certainly equal or better, especially 2000 which was something crazy like +3.8. That makes 7.5 seasons, 7 if we want to remove 2008 all together. 

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

Hmm?   Putting is ~41-42% of score.   

 

 

Not really the right percentage to use.  Out of the 25-30 putts per round there will be 6-10 or so, sometimes more, that are tap ins. There is zero difference between a best putter touring pro and a 10 handicap on those. 
 

Realistically putting really comes into play on the putts that range from about 7 feet to about 20 feet….and then again for long putts and the ability to leave those stone dead for easy tap ins.

 

So it’s simple

-make the short range putts that you should

-make a few of those mid range 7-20 footers

-have great speed control and leave stress free tap ins on the longer putts.

 

Righ now Scheffler is struggling with that middle zone the most.  Just doesn’t seem to make anything.

[mosesgolf]

Putting is what separates the good from the greats.  Jordan Spieth for example sprayed it all over the place, missed his share of short putts that Tiger never missed but had one of the longest hot streaks for making long putts which propelled him to a major here and there.  He doesn't putt like that anymore thus he is just good now.   The week that Scotty won the Masters he was putting lights out.  Tiger was Tiger and Jack was Jack because of the flatstick.  The two greatest pressure putters of all time.

[bladehunter]

4 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Might be worthy of another thread or not, but reading this got me to thinking.

 

With all of the seeming advances in putting tech (lab, mallets, computer designed, face milling tech, shafts, grips, etc.) would we say that professionals as a whole are better putters now than say 40ish years ago, and are the best putters either now or then, better than those from the other timeframe?

I don’t know the metrics. But if you go back and watch them play. Very few putts made overall. Only a few guys making many 

[CLEVELAND59]

1000 percent true.  His performance at the Memorial was the 2nd best ball striking performance stat wise in the history of the data era.  It was insane.  Gained over 19 stokes on the field.  If you look at the season stats its absolutely not even a contest.  Tee to green he really has no comparison currently and historically its among the best seasons ever.

[aenemated]

37 minutes ago, CLEVELAND59 said:

2nd best ball striking performance stat wise in the history of the data era

 

And he didn't win. 

 

I'm a math nerd and software eng of going on 30 years. I've dealt with math basically my entire life. It's really great for absolute things. The application of it to sports performance is bunk BS that a whole lot of people got suckered into and it made a lot of money for a lot of people buying into it and selling it.

 

There's this weird grail of SG that wants to describe a stellar player. Bettors love it - and we do too in this town. I used to make my living off of clowns betting in that.

 

Money Ball was a fun movie. 

 

Man, I wish I had lesser ethics. I'd be a billionaire in no time. 

[dukeman]

The stats don’t tell the story. When Tiger first came out, with the “old technology” clubs, he could hit shots, that nobody else on tour could hit. Nobody else was hitting driver/wedge to 15 at Augusta. Nobody was drilling 250 yard stingers when there was a fairway that had to be hit. Nobody could hit a 215 yard 6-iron out of a bunker and over water on the 72nd hole to win a national title. He could just do things that the other players could not do, and they knew it.
 

Scottie is playing some great golf, and he’s hitting really good golf shots way more often than the other players, but I’m not seeing him hit shots that other players just physically can not do.

[Ferguson]

9 hours ago, CLEVELAND59 said:

1000 percent true.  His performance at the Memorial was the 2nd best ball striking performance stat wise in the history of the data era.  It was insane.  Gained over 19 stokes on the field.  If you look at the season stats its absolutely not even a contest.  Tee to green he really has no comparison currently and historically its among the best seasons ever.

 

Scheffler didn't win.  

 

[Superbrit]

Everyone been saying this about Rory for the past 8 or 9 years, if he could putt like Tiger he probably would have won 6 or 7 majors by now, if not more

 

But he didn't, so he hasn't, same with Scheffler

[smashdn]

9 hours ago, dukeman said:

The stats don’t tell the story. When Tiger first came out, with the “old technology” clubs, he could hit shots, that nobody else on tour could hit. Nobody else was hitting driver/wedge to 15 at Augusta. Nobody was drilling 250 yard stingers when there was a fairway that had to be hit. Nobody could hit a 215 yard 6-iron out of a bunker and over water on the 72nd hole to win a national title. He could just do things that the other players could not do, and they knew it.
 

Scottie is playing some great golf, and he’s hitting really good golf shots way more often than the other players, but I’m not seeing him hit shots that other players just physically can not do.

 

He could hit the 250 yard stinger, split the fairway relatively stress free, be right there with your striped driver and then put that 6 iron on the green around 10 foot to put the pressure on you. 

 

If you read Broadie, the long iron play was what made Tiger "Tigre el rey."

[Hawkeye77]

False - just another click bait question.

[Shilgy]

On 6/6/2023 at 4:13 AM, Superbrit said:

Everyone been saying this about Rory for the past 8 or 9 years, if he could putt like Tiger he probably would have won 6 or 7 majors by now, if not more

 

But he didn't, so he hasn't, same with Scheffler

Of course, the premise of the thread isn’t would Scheffler be Tiger it was would he be the closest thing to Tiger in the last 25 years if he could putt better.

 

Based on that premise I would give a qualified yes.  I’ve been watching professional golf for about 55 years…Tiger played the best golf I have ever seen.

[Justsomeguy]

True. I don't have the stats at the ready, but I'd like to know how many tourneys Tiger won by a stroke, and how many miracle putts were out there. He won a crazy number of times though so anyone who's second best to that is pretty good, so not taking anything away from Tiger obviously.

But there's definitely a luck element to putting. And Tiger definitely had it and Scottie definitely doesn't.

I can't say I ever saw Tiger shove a 3 footer somewhere weird. And the number of random 20 footers that dropped were sick.

This is what I think makes Rahm a better overall player than Scheffler even though the stats don't agree - he finds a way to make putts.

I'll never forget whatever tournament it was where he and DJ are dueling putts in a playoff and Rahm bombed him like twice in a row from downtown.

That NEVER happens with Scheffler.

Maybe it's luck, maybe it's preternatural, I dunno, but if Scheffler had whatever it is, he'd have minimum 10 wins by now.

[dcfas]

I agree Scottie has been impressive, and I hope he continues to play great.

 

That being said, no one matches prime TW.

[redfirebird08]

Golf history is loaded with great ballstrikers who struggled with the putter. Ben Hogan famously believed the putts should count as a half-shot instead of a full shot.