Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

[Forged4ever]

Trying to answer my own question above from the Diamond Resorts Invite (they all played from same tees). Looks like Lexi and Ray Allen both shot 67s on one of the days. But I think Ray is about 1...then again Lexi isn't a bottom tier LPGA pro. So...anyone else have any info from the tourney. Again, this really is a good actual data source.

Ray Allen is going to be more like plus 1 after a round like that.

 

PS Curse you for reviving this thread. I thought this nightmare was finally over.

LMAO, I was thinking the same exact thing?

 

Dear God, whyyyyyyyy????

 

Have a nice week Bro?

 

My Best,

RP

[EntourageLife]

No. No chance. Let's lock this topic. Thanks.

[CallawayLefty]

No. No chance. Let's lock this topic. Thanks.

 

Why stop the discussion now? I feel like it's just getting going. #mission1000posts

[PJ72]

Serena Williams is apparently the greatest tennis player of all time, and she was destroyed by some guy who was ranked 500th in the world or something.

 

I'm actually not aware of many matches between LPGA players and high-ranked male amateurs.

 

I remember that one. Venus and Serena waxed on about how they could do beat a male between 100 and 200 in the world I think. I think this was before Serena had won a major. Both were relatively new to the WTA and at that time, I think there was quite a bit of youthful bluster going on.

 

The guy's name was something like Karsten Branche. I only remember it because he happened to play on my shores that year and seemed like a fun guy. Bit of a chain smoker apparently lol. He was near the end of his career, didn't have much to lose and fit the bill so he volunteered himself.

 

Closed court on a practice court of a tournament. I think it was Wimbledon or something. Beat Venus and Serena back to back in one set matches. Pinch of salt stuff, but there were no scores or opinions of how competitive it was, just that he won both.

 

Now, in saying that though, for all the talks of comparison (golf vs tennis), are we saying that a 4 cap would rank 500 in the world?

 

I'm not sure if tennis can be compared to golf? I mean surely the man just boomed 140mph serves down her throat and she had no reactions to return serve? And the man would effectively be facing 'second' serves all day from the woman?

 

In golf you are playing the course NOT your opponent. I mean, it's the equivalent of a man outdriving the woman and winning the hole. Golf is more than that.

[dhc1]

Trying to answer my own question above from the Diamond Resorts Invite (they all played from same tees). Looks like Lexi and Ray Allen both shot 67s on one of the days. But I think Ray is about 1...then again Lexi isn't a bottom tier LPGA pro. So...anyone else have any info from the tourney. Again, this really is a good actual data source.

 

Fwiw, we don't really need to see them play on the same tees as men to figure out a men's handicap. We figure out the men's rating/slope of the courses they play. These correlate pretty closely with yardage. I remain pretty confident that my estimate of the top 75 or so being around +1 to +2 men's while the best of the best are closer to plus 4 or 5. We can even do math to figure out the chance of a four cap beating them based on usga data (which I already did somewhere in this thread). I believe I figured out that a 4 would have like a 1-3% chance of beating a plus 2. Basically no chance of beating a plus 5. So there's the data. A four would win a few times out of a hundred at best. So it's possible, but extremely unlikely and they are all clearly better than a men's 4 cap, but probably not nearly as good as some on here are implying. They'd win most city level am events, but lose state level and get crushed by all top men above about 15 years of age.

 

I honestly can't believe this thread went for as long as it did, especially when we have the tools to make pretty good guesses. I attribute it to people still just not understanding the handicap system at all (which I blame on the usga for having such a byzantine system). The only variable that I looked at that can be reasonably disagreed with is the rating//slope of the courses they play, but no one has given me a good reason to think they are consistently playing courses that are higher than 72/130 men's.

 

I agree directionally although i'm curious as to whether lower ranked LPGA players are really +1 / +2 because it's hard for me to determine whether the courses they actually play are set up closer to the senior men's tees (rating near 70-71) than the member's tee (rating ~72). Based on a cursory review, they often move tee boxes up quite a bit from the members tee so I'm guessing it's closer to the senior, assuming distance is the key determinant. I'd guess that the lower ranked LPGA players are +1 to scratch when compared to the men. Still don't like the odds of a 4 beating a scratch player straight up.

 

IMO, there's a lot of money to made in this environment having a bunch of contests between chest-thumping male golfers and lady pros......Draft King could make a fortune.....

[EntourageLife]

I'm all for having a great topic or debate.

 

But understand...it's an insult to even compare a 4 handicap man to an LPGA player.

 

[dhc1]

I'm all for having a great topic or debate.

 

But understand...it's an insult to even compare a 4 handicap man to an LPGA player.

 

I think the thread title is misleading as it was taken from a question that Stina Steinberg decided to answer in print.

 

i don't recall anyone here saying that LPGA players are equivalent to 4 handicaps. Most say that they're somewhere between +2 to scratch. Another tangential discussion is definitional wrt whether a four beating a plus player once out of every [20] rounds counts as "competing" (which I personally don't find to be an interesting topic).

[Boricua Golf]

I've been fortunate to play a few rounds with both PGA and LPGA Pros, to be honest the LPGA Pros are amazing golfers, we played from blue tees at Ko'Olina (not tips) and Kim Kaufman played -4 and I played -1...she hit every fairway and averaged 260 off the tee, I was outdriving her by 20-30 yards, the difference between us was her short game and putting was amazing, I would 2 putt par and she would birdie, very consistent and accurate...I also played with James Hahn (close friend) in Hawaii and we played Turtle Bay from tips, he played to -5 and I ended +1, here the difference was distance off the tee, he outdrove me easily by 20-25 yards only missed a few fairways, short game and putting amazing as well...

[BenHoganSlam1953]

I've been fortunate to play a few rounds with both PGA and LPGA Pros, to be honest the LPGA Pros are amazing golfers, we played from blue tees at Ko'Olina (not tips) and Kim Kaufman played -4 and I played -1...she hit every fairway and averaged 260 off the tee, I was outdriving her by 20-3- yards, the difference between us was her short game and putting was amazing, I would 2 putt par and she would birdie, very consistent and accurate...I also played with James Hahn (close friend) in Hawaii and we played Turtle Bay from tips, he played to -5 and I ended +1, here the difference was distance off the tee, he outdrove me easily by 20-25 yards only missed a few fairways, short game and putting amazing as well...

 

That sums it up nicely - if two individuals have similar games (on average) and one outdrives the other significantly then in all likelihood they'll win most rounds. However, distance is not the be all, end all, that I believe many in this thread think (guy = long versus girl = short). It can be a significant part, but it isn't everything, otherwise, they are many golfers on the professional tours that never should have won as many times as they did.

[Boricua Golf]

I've been fortunate to play a few rounds with both PGA and LPGA Pros, to be honest the LPGA Pros are amazing golfers, we played from blue tees at Ko'Olina (not tips) and Kim Kaufman played -4 and I played -1...she hit every fairway and averaged 260 off the tee, I was outdriving her by 20-3- yards, the difference between us was her short game and putting was amazing, I would 2 putt par and she would birdie, very consistent and accurate...I also played with James Hahn (close friend) in Hawaii and we played Turtle Bay from tips, he played to -5 and I ended +1, here the difference was distance off the tee, he outdrove me easily by 20-25 yards only missed a few fairways, short game and putting amazing as well...

 

That sums it up nicely - if two individuals have similar games (on average) and one outdrives the other significantly then in all likelihood they'll win most rounds. However, distance is not the be all, end all, that I believe many in this thread think (guy = long versus girl = short). It can be a significant part, but it isn't everything, otherwise, they are many golfers on the professional tours that never should have won as many times as they did.

 

Yes, agreed, these Pros are really good, you can see the power game with the PGA guys and the consistency/accuracy is magnified with the LPGA, it seemed like the LPGA didn't miss a shot...just my experience, plus playing with me there is really no pressure, more like a practice round...

[dan360]

I've been fortunate to play a few rounds with both PGA and LPGA Pros, to be honest the LPGA Pros are amazing golfers, we played from blue tees at Ko'Olina (not tips) and Kim Kaufman played -4 and I played -1...she hit every fairway and averaged 260 off the tee, I was outdriving her by 20-3- yards, the difference between us was her short game and putting was amazing, I would 2 putt par and she would birdie, very consistent and accurate...I also played with James Hahn (close friend) in Hawaii and we played Turtle Bay from tips, he played to -5 and I ended +1, here the difference was distance off the tee, he outdrove me easily by 20-25 yards only missed a few fairways, short game and putting amazing as well...

 

In my limited experience getting owned by touring players, it was always the short game and putting. I could put the ball in the same places they could off the tee and even at times from fairway to green. They'd make a putt, I'd miss it by enough to sometimes miss the next one, too..... :(

[Obee]

I've been fortunate to play a few rounds with both PGA and LPGA Pros, to be honest the LPGA Pros are amazing golfers, we played from blue tees at Ko'Olina (not tips) and Kim Kaufman played -4 and I played -1...she hit every fairway and averaged 260 off the tee, I was outdriving her by 20-3- yards, the difference between us was her short game and putting was amazing, I would 2 putt par and she would birdie, very consistent and accurate...I also played with James Hahn (close friend) in Hawaii and we played Turtle Bay from tips, he played to -5 and I ended +1, here the difference was distance off the tee, he outdrove me easily by 20-25 yards only missed a few fairways, short game and putting amazing as well...

 

In my limited experience getting owned by touring players, it was always the short game and putting. I could put the ball in the same places they could off the tee and even at times from fairway to green. They'd make a putt, I'd miss it by enough to sometimes miss the next one, too..... :(

 

Everyone is different. Inside about 130 yards, there's not much difference between me and a tour pro. They are better, but not by much.

 

But they hit 40 to 80 yards past me. That is impossible to make up.

[EKELLY]

Didn't somebody kill this thread? I know I sent in a donation!!.......

[EntourageLife]

I've been fortunate to play a few rounds with both PGA and LPGA Pros, to be honest the LPGA Pros are amazing golfers, we played from blue tees at Ko'Olina (not tips) and Kim Kaufman played -4 and I played -1...she hit every fairway and averaged 260 off the tee, I was outdriving her by 20-3- yards, the difference between us was her short game and putting was amazing, I would 2 putt par and she would birdie, very consistent and accurate...I also played with James Hahn (close friend) in Hawaii and we played Turtle Bay from tips, he played to -5 and I ended +1, here the difference was distance off the tee, he outdrove me easily by 20-25 yards only missed a few fairways, short game and putting amazing as well...

 

In my limited experience getting owned by touring players, it was always the short game and putting. I could put the ball in the same places they could off the tee and even at times from fairway to green. They'd make a putt, I'd miss it by enough to sometimes miss the next one, too..... :(

 

Everyone is different. Inside about 130 yards, there's not much difference between me and a tour pro. They are better, but not by much.

 

But they hit 40 to 80 yards past me. That is impossible to make up.

 

No offense my friend...but they're world's better than you from 130 yards in. FACT

[EntourageLife]

Didn't somebody kill this thread? I know I sent in a donation!!.......

 

Hey "EKELLY", let me know asap where I too can donate to kill this thread! People have ZERO clue how good PGA/LPGA Tour players are...

[downsandups]

An LPGA player would destroy a 4 handicap.

[Obee]

I've been fortunate to play a few rounds with both PGA and LPGA Pros, to be honest the LPGA Pros are amazing golfers, we played from blue tees at Ko'Olina (not tips) and Kim Kaufman played -4 and I played -1...she hit every fairway and averaged 260 off the tee, I was outdriving her by 20-3- yards, the difference between us was her short game and putting was amazing, I would 2 putt par and she would birdie, very consistent and accurate...I also played with James Hahn (close friend) in Hawaii and we played Turtle Bay from tips, he played to -5 and I ended +1, here the difference was distance off the tee, he outdrove me easily by 20-25 yards only missed a few fairways, short game and putting amazing as well...

 

In my limited experience getting owned by touring players, it was always the short game and putting. I could put the ball in the same places they could off the tee and even at times from fairway to green. They'd make a putt, I'd miss it by enough to sometimes miss the next one, too..... :(

 

Everyone is different. Inside about 130 yards, there's not much difference between me and a tour pro. They are better, but not by much.

 

But they hit 40 to 80 yards past me. That is impossible to make up.

 

No offense my friend...but they're world's better than you from 130 yards in. FACT

 

What do you think would happen if I played Phil Mickelson with a 35 to 40 yard head start on every hole? LOL

[farmer]

Obee, Phil just had hernia surgery. It is completely unfair to pick on the injured.

[Macogardy]

Jenny shin PGA tour winner is a member at my club and she would wax a 4 hcp I think a 0 or plus 1 from the same tees is a better comparison. Think about it a PGA tour golfer is gonna be a plus 5 or so.

[oikos1]

I've been fortunate to play a few rounds with both PGA and LPGA Pros, to be honest the LPGA Pros are amazing golfers, we played from blue tees at Ko'Olina (not tips) and Kim Kaufman played -4 and I played -1...she hit every fairway and averaged 260 off the tee, I was outdriving her by 20-3- yards, the difference between us was her short game and putting was amazing, I would 2 putt par and she would birdie, very consistent and accurate...I also played with James Hahn (close friend) in Hawaii and we played Turtle Bay from tips, he played to -5 and I ended +1, here the difference was distance off the tee, he outdrove me easily by 20-25 yards only missed a few fairways, short game and putting amazing as well...

 

In my limited experience getting owned by touring players, it was always the short game and putting. I could put the ball in the same places they could off the tee and even at times from fairway to green. They'd make a putt, I'd miss it by enough to sometimes miss the next one, too..... :(

 

Everyone is different. Inside about 130 yards, there's not much difference between me and a tour pro. They are better, but not by much.

 

But they hit 40 to 80 yards past me. That is impossible to make up.

 

No offense my friend...but they're world's better than you from 130 yards in. FACT

 

What do you think would happen if I played Phil Mickelson with a 35 to 40 yard head start on every hole? LOL

 

I like it. How do we get a hold of his agent?

[EKELLY]

I've been fortunate to play a few rounds with both PGA and LPGA Pros, to be honest the LPGA Pros are amazing golfers, we played from blue tees at Ko'Olina (not tips) and Kim Kaufman played -4 and I played -1...she hit every fairway and averaged 260 off the tee, I was outdriving her by 20-3- yards, the difference between us was her short game and putting was amazing, I would 2 putt par and she would birdie, very consistent and accurate...I also played with James Hahn (close friend) in Hawaii and we played Turtle Bay from tips, he played to -5 and I ended +1, here the difference was distance off the tee, he outdrove me easily by 20-25 yards only missed a few fairways, short game and putting amazing as well...

 

In my limited experience getting owned by touring players, it was always the short game and putting. I could put the ball in the same places they could off the tee and even at times from fairway to green. They'd make a putt, I'd miss it by enough to sometimes miss the next one, too..... :(

 

Everyone is different. Inside about 130 yards, there's not much difference between me and a tour pro. They are better, but not by much.

 

But they hit 40 to 80 yards past me. That is impossible to make up.

 

No offense my friend...but they're world's better than you from 130 yards in. FACT

 

What do you think would happen if I played Phil Mickelson with a 35 to 40 yard head start on every hole? LOL

I think you already know the answer.........lol

[LansingMI]

I've done the math ...

 

Using the location of LPGA Volvik Championship Travis Pointe CC in 2017.

 

FACT: average yardage LPGA plays from 6,500 yards

(source LPGA's own website)

 

FACT: +3 was the cut line in 2016

(source LPGA website)

 

FACT: Travis Pointe's WHITE tees are 6,545 yrds. The course rating from the TIPS is 73.8

 

so..... A scratch male golfer could MAYBE stand a chance to make the cut in the LPGA Volvik championship. By doing that he would've beaten a number of LPGA pros at that tournament on his way up the leaderboard

[Hot Rod 71]

I've done the math ...

 

Using the location of LPGA Volvik Championship Travis Pointe CC in 2017.

 

FACT: average yardage LPGA plays from 6,500 yards

(source LPGA's own website)

 

FACT: +3 was the cut line in 2016

(source LPGA website)

 

FACT: Travis Pointe's WHITE tees are 6,545 yrds. The course rating from the TIPS is 73.8

 

so..... A scratch male golfer could MAYBE stand a chance to make the cut in the LPGA Volvik championship. By doing that he would've beaten a number of LPGA pros at that tournament on his way up the leaderboard

 

So you're saying a scratch male golfer could do better than 3 over par after two days on a course 6500 yards long and rated at 73.8? What are the odds?

[EntourageLife]

I've done the math ...

 

Using the location of LPGA Volvik Championship Travis Pointe CC in 2017.

 

FACT: average yardage LPGA plays from 6,500 yards

(source LPGA's own website)

 

FACT: +3 was the cut line in 2016

(source LPGA website)

 

FACT: Travis Pointe's WHITE tees are 6,545 yrds. The course rating from the TIPS is 73.8

 

so..... A scratch male golfer could MAYBE stand a chance to make the cut in the LPGA Volvik championship. By doing that he would've beaten a number of LPGA pros at that tournament on his way up the leaderboard

 

There is no math needed. A scratch golfer wouldn't make the cut. A 4 handicap wouldn't break 80.

 

-Now we've moved on to debating how well they'd score in a tournament. Haha

 

-People have no clue how great PGA/LPGA Tour players are. Also, people have no clue how difficult actual tournament golf can be.

 

 

[iteachgolf]

I've done the math ...

 

Using the location of LPGA Volvik Championship Travis Pointe CC in 2017.

 

FACT: average yardage LPGA plays from 6,500 yards

(source LPGA's own website)

 

FACT: +3 was the cut line in 2016

(source LPGA website)

 

FACT: Travis Pointe's WHITE tees are 6,545 yrds. The course rating from the TIPS is 73.8

 

so..... A scratch male golfer could MAYBE stand a chance to make the cut in the LPGA Volvik championship. By doing that he would've beaten a number of LPGA pros at that tournament on his way up the leaderboard

 

The white tees are rated 71.9. The tips are rated at 76 not 73.8.

[PowderedToastMan]

I'm seriously frustrated that the mods are locking topics that they deem the "topic's been covered enough so end thread" yet a 1,000 post completely sexist thread continues on.

 

A thread titled "can a 4 handicap beat Cory Pavin or Fred Funk" never would have gotten legs because it would be so absurd to even consider yes. Yet this thread continues because people with intelligent minds argue sexist opinions that are delusional and downright worrisome.

 

Mods, can you please end this thread? It's not funny, it's sexist, and certainly the topic has been "covered".

[LansingMI]

I've done the math ...

 

Using the location of LPGA Volvik Championship Travis Pointe CC in 2017.

 

FACT: average yardage LPGA plays from 6,500 yards

(source LPGA's own website)

 

FACT: +3 was the cut line in 2016

(source LPGA website)

 

FACT: Travis Pointe's WHITE tees are 6,545 yrds. The course rating from the TIPS is 73.8

 

so..... A scratch male golfer could MAYBE stand a chance to make the cut in the LPGA Volvik championship. By doing that he would've beaten a number of LPGA pros at that tournament on his way up the leaderboard

 

So you're saying a scratch male golfer could do better than 3 over par after two days on a course 6500 yards long and rated at 73.8? What are the odds?

 

 

You're right, now that step back and think about it. The odds of shooting your handicap or better 2 days in a row during a tournament are astronomical.

[EntourageLife]

I've done the math ...

 

Using the location of LPGA Volvik Championship Travis Pointe CC in 2017.

 

FACT: average yardage LPGA plays from 6,500 yards

(source LPGA's own website)

 

FACT: +3 was the cut line in 2016

(source LPGA website)

 

FACT: Travis Pointe's WHITE tees are 6,545 yrds. The course rating from the TIPS is 73.8

 

so..... A scratch male golfer could MAYBE stand a chance to make the cut in the LPGA Volvik championship. By doing that he would've beaten a number of LPGA pros at that tournament on his way up the leaderboard

 

So you're saying a scratch male golfer could do better than 3 over par after two days on a course 6500 yards long and rated at 73.8? What are the odds?

 

 

You're right, now that step back and think about it. The odds of shooting your handicap or better 2 days in a row during a tournament are astronomical.

 

I'd bet they couldn't break 80. Honest to God, people have ZERO clue how difficult it really is out there.

[iteachgolf]

I've done the math ...

 

Using the location of LPGA Volvik Championship Travis Pointe CC in 2017.

 

FACT: average yardage LPGA plays from 6,500 yards

(source LPGA's own website)

 

FACT: +3 was the cut line in 2016

(source LPGA website)

 

FACT: Travis Pointe's WHITE tees are 6,545 yrds. The course rating from the TIPS is 73.8

 

so..... A scratch male golfer could MAYBE stand a chance to make the cut in the LPGA Volvik championship. By doing that he would've beaten a number of LPGA pros at that tournament on his way up the leaderboard

 

So you're saying a scratch male golfer could do better than 3 over par after two days on a course 6500 yards long and rated at 73.8? What are the odds?

 

Rated 71.9 not 73.8.

[Obee]

I've done the math ...

 

Using the location of LPGA Volvik Championship Travis Pointe CC in 2017.

 

FACT: average yardage LPGA plays from 6,500 yards

(source LPGA's own website)

 

FACT: +3 was the cut line in 2016

(source LPGA website)

 

FACT: Travis Pointe's WHITE tees are 6,545 yrds. The course rating from the TIPS is 73.8

 

so..... A scratch male golfer could MAYBE stand a chance to make the cut in the LPGA Volvik championship. By doing that he would've beaten a number of LPGA pros at that tournament on his way up the leaderboard

 

There is no math needed. A scratch golfer wouldn't make the cut. A 4 handicap wouldn't break 80.

 

-Now we've moved on to debating how well they'd score in a tournament. Haha

 

-People have no clue how great PGA/LPGA Tour players are. Also, people have no clue how difficult actual tournament golf can be.

 

Generalize much?

 

Plenty of people on this site know exactly how good they are. Plenty of people on this site have played with them.