Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

[bluedot]

Nsxguy,

I'm not sure who you are arguing with; it can't be me, because I just said that LPGA pros couldn't shoot the scores necessary to play on the PGA or Web.com Tours! I don't anybody has made the argument in this whole steaming mess of 48 pages that they could.

 

The scoring gap between an LPGA Tour pro, even a top one, and a male pro on either tour is huge, and actually probably pretty similar to the gap between a 4 handicap and an LPGA player. That's just my guess, but I'll go with it.

[dhc1]

 

 

Since the title was "an LPGA Pro", "Scratch" LPGA Pro was used as a middle of the roader or even a lower level Pro so the 4 might compete. Earlier in this thread there were all sorts of numbers for the best lady pros being +3 to +5 and those were supposedly "men's" handicap ratings.

 

So why CAN'T/DON'T LPGA Pros play on the men's tour ? Simple, because they can't shoot the same SCORES (NOT handicap) from the distance the men play.

 

C'mon man

 

 

Because the mens PGA are better than +5.

 

The bottom half of the LPGA are approximately equivalent to scratch to +1 amateur males and the top ones are quite good. Not PGA level at all and probably not Seniors level either but pretty damn good.

[BMC]

Does the LPGA player get to use their caddie for yardage and lining up?

 

Does the 4 cap get to use a cart and a laser? Can he drink beer during the round?

 

Lots of variables in this discussion.

[SurfDuffer]

Simple question: If I shoot a 74 and an LPGA player shoots a 75, did I beat the LPGA player or not? Yes or no only please. Thanks.

 

I think the answer depends on whether the LPGA player was ranked 75-100 on the tour, whether you're a 4 handicap, and how many drives you carried over 270 yards. I could really go either way on it personally.

 

I find it interesting that the thread went on two more pages without a single person giving an honest answer to a simple question.

[Obee]

Simple question: If I shoot a 74 and an LPGA player shoots a 75, did I beat the LPGA player or not? Yes or no only please. Thanks.

 

I think the answer depends on whether the LPGA player was ranked 75-100 on the tour, whether you're a 4 handicap, and how many drives you carried over 270 yards. I could really go either way on it personally.

 

I find it interesting that the thread went on two more pages without a single person giving an honest answer to a simple question.

 

Which question? LOL

[TheGeekGolfer]

Simple question: If I shoot a 74 and an LPGA player shoots a 75, did I beat the LPGA player or not? Yes or no only please. Thanks.

 

I think the answer depends on whether the LPGA player was ranked 75-100 on the tour, whether you're a 4 handicap, and how many drives you carried over 270 yards. I could really go either way on it personally.

 

I find it interesting that the thread went on two more pages without a single person giving an honest answer to a simple question.

YES - provided you played against each other on the same course, from the same set of tees.

[TheGeekGolfer]

 

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works.

 

To be clear, the "event" being discussed is NOT a net score,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Never said it was, and that's not the point of what I wrote. The things that make a scratch or plus player that are true at ANY distance, and the things that make a 4 that are also true at ANY distance. In a straight up gross stroke play match, it doesn't matter what tees are being played; the better player is the better player.

 

If that was true than an LPGA pro would be playing on the PGA or at least the WEB.COM tour, since they are that good at any distance.

 

Sigh....

Sigh

 

You just don't get it. "Birdie" is a name for one less stroke than par, ok, and it isn't the only way to save a shot, so quit talking about it that way. If I move up, I can turn doubles into bogeys, and bogeys into pars. If I move back, I can turn pars into bogeys, and bogeys into doubles. It's a couple of shots either way, and the idea that a better player doesn't gain from moving up because they don't make a lot more birdies is silly math. A stroke is a stroke. That has nothing to do with handicaps; it has to do with what you shoot.

 

I don't think you understand math. It's not 'a couple of shots either way'! There is a hard cap of either a birdie or the rare eagle, you can't go lower than a 2, or the very rare 1 on a hole. However, if you take the short hitter and move them back on a long par 4, you can definitely lose MORE THAN one or two shots. There is NO UPPER CAP in stroke play.

 

You need to get in touch with the USGA with this information immediately. You have knowledge of how course ratings should be done that they need to know about. They have been mistakenly rating courses a completely different way than you have discovered; they actually think that the scratch golfer's score changes more or less proportionally in both directions! At my home course, for instance, the rating from the 7349 tips is 75.0, but the rating drops to 73.1, 70.1, and 67.4 (at 5648) as the tees become shorter. Clearly the USGA doesn't understand what they are doing, and courses all over the country must now be re-rated.

 

This changes everything!

The USGA hdcp system is inherently flawed to favor the higher hdcp player in a match. This is even more apparent as you move up a tee. It is more likely the higher hdcp will have a day where they play 'better' than normal and made more pars or bogey. Those turn into net par, birdie, or even eagle.

 

For an extreme example, take a par 3 where the high hdcp makes a gross par and the lower hdcp makes a birdie. Well, if the high hdcp gets 2 strokes, they make a net hole in one and win the hole. The hdcp system just took a very unlikely, once in a lifetime event and turned it into a much more likely event.

According to Frank Thomas and others (including the USGA itself) the system favors the lower handicap.

Sigh

[Obee]

GeekGolfer,

 

Just so we are clear, how often do you think a four beats the 130th ranked LPGA player?

[dpark]

Can't believe this thread is still going. Don't even remember if I ever posted in the thread. Will add a datapoint that will require some mental gymnastics to be relevant to the OP question.

 

One of my buddies is a 4 time club champ at a nice private track in the Portland area. He is a good stick (obviously). He works in the same company as a guy in Texas whose daughter is a former USGA Women's Am champion.

 

Obviously, my friend is much better than a 4hdcp. I also have no idea how a teenaged USGA Women's Am champ stacks up to a typical LPGA pro.

 

That said, they have played together several times and by my buddy's own estimation, he would be lucky to win half of the matches against her playing from the same tees (white or blue). He outdrives her by ~30 yards, but her accuracy with approach irons is much better (club to club). So they typically end up around the same distance from the hole, assuming he hits a 7 iron in and she hits a 4 iron or hybrid. Then it comes down to putting. Short game is pretty similar.

 

So depending on how folks rate a USGA Am champ vs. a random LPGA tour pro, and using a scratch male golfer as a datapoint who estimates (based on actual play) that he would win at best 1/2 of their matches, there is probably a non-zero chance a 4 hdcp could win once in a blue moon, but most likely would lose the majority of matches.

 

FYI, I am currently a 3 hdcp (so fairly close to a 4) and have won one club championship (when I was much better). My friend beats me 80+ percent of the time.

[CallawayLefty]

Forget about 1,400 posts. I want 14,000,000 posts.

[deadsolid...shank]

GeekGolfer,

 

Just so we are clear, how often do you think a four beats the 130th ranked LPGA player?

 

I'm going to guess Obee. Once out of 35 rounds?

[SurfDuffer]

GeekGolfer,

 

Just so we are clear, how often do you think a four beats the 130th ranked LPGA player?

 

I'm going to guess Obee. Once out of 35 rounds?

 

Well there is the answer, or an answer for the topic of this thread. The answer is yes, a 4 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. The topic was never "Is a 4 handicapper a better golfer?" despite people's attempts to make it that.

[deadsolid...shank]

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

[CallawayLefty]

GeekGolfer,

 

Just so we are clear, how often do you think a four beats the 130th ranked LPGA player?

 

I'm going to guess Obee. Once out of 35 rounds?

 

Well there is the answer, or an answer for the topic of this thread. The answer is yes, a 4 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. The topic was never "Is a 4 handicapper a better golfer?" despite people's attempts to make it that.

 

So we're back to this (for the 14th time)? So I guess you'd take the position that a 36 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. I mean sure, it will only happen about 1 in a trillion times if the LPGA player falls down and breaks her arm mid round...but it can happen. The implied topic, although imprecisely stated, was always whether a 4 handicap can more or less "keep up" with an LPGA player. Not whether in the event of a massive statistical anomaly the 4 handicap can beat an LPGA player. One is an interesting question with a simple answer (the 4 handicap loses at least 99% of the time). The other is an impossibly narrow question with a silly answer - e.g. that Lydia Ko can be beaten by a 4 handicap if she gets run over by a Ferrari mid round.

[CallawayLefty]

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

 

In my experience, a 4 handicap will shoot a tournament round of 74 on a typical "men's length/rated" course (not tipped, not a short course) about 1 in 20 tries. They'll probably average more like 80, and I would put their low end right around 74. Anything lower would start to get into "career round" territory.

 

For the record, I used to be a 4 handicap, have played with dozens of people around 4 handicap on a regular basis, and have played in many tournaments, both as a 4 handicap myself and with other 4 handicaps.

[deadsolid...shank]

GeekGolfer,

 

Just so we are clear, how often do you think a four beats the 130th ranked LPGA player?

 

I'm going to guess Obee. Once out of 35 rounds?

 

Well there is the answer, or an answer for the topic of this thread. The answer is yes, a 4 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. The topic was never "Is a 4 handicapper a better golfer?" despite people's attempts to make it that.

 

So we're back to this (for the 14th time)? So I guess you'd take the position that a 36 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. I mean sure, it will only happen about 1 in a trillion times if the LPGA player falls down and breaks her arm mid round...but it can happen. The implied topic, although imprecisely stated, was always whether a 4 handicap can more or less "keep up" with an LPGA player. Not whether in the event of a massive statistical anomaly the 4 handicap can beat an LPGA player. One is an interesting question with a simple answer (the 4 handicap loses at least 99% of the time). The other is an impossibly narrow question with a silly answer - e.g. that Lydia Ko can be beaten by a 4 handicap if she gets run over by a Ferrari mid round.

 

I agree with that Callaway. That's why I liked Obee's question. It is obviously going to be a rarity, so the better question is: how often?

[CallawayLefty]

GeekGolfer,

 

Just so we are clear, how often do you think a four beats the 130th ranked LPGA player?

 

I'm going to guess Obee. Once out of 35 rounds?

 

Well there is the answer, or an answer for the topic of this thread. The answer is yes, a 4 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. The topic was never "Is a 4 handicapper a better golfer?" despite people's attempts to make it that.

 

So we're back to this (for the 14th time)? So I guess you'd take the position that a 36 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. I mean sure, it will only happen about 1 in a trillion times if the LPGA player falls down and breaks her arm mid round...but it can happen. The implied topic, although imprecisely stated, was always whether a 4 handicap can more or less "keep up" with an LPGA player. Not whether in the event of a massive statistical anomaly the 4 handicap can beat an LPGA player. One is an interesting question with a simple answer (the 4 handicap loses at least 99% of the time). The other is an impossibly narrow question with a silly answer - e.g. that Lydia Ko can be beaten by a 4 handicap if she gets run over by a Ferrari mid round.

 

I agree with that Callaway. That's why I liked Obee's question. It is obviously going to be a rarity, so the better question is: how often?

 

I said 99% above. That's an exaggeration. I think it's probably about 1 in 35 rounds as stated above. The 4 handicap has to play very well in the same round that the LPGA player plays bad. Happens all the time in the real world, but it just doesn't happen very often.

[deadsolid...shank]

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

 

In my experience, a 4 handicap will shoot a tournament round of 74 on a typical "men's length/rated" course (not tipped, not a short course) about 1 in 20 tries. They'll probably average more like 80, and I would put their low end right around 74. Anything lower would start to get into "career round" territory.

 

For the record, I used to be a 4 handicap, have played with dozens of people around 4 handicap on a regular basis, and have played in many tournaments, both as a 4 handicap myself and with other 4 handicaps.

 

My regular group right now is all right around that number. Mostly pretty good players, a lot of tournament play. Averages are slightly better than the numbers you referenced (80 avg, 74 low). But I really believe the reason for this is playing a couple courses with ridiculously low ratings. It really skews the handicaps upwards I believe. Almost like "legalized sandbagging".

 

Two of the courses have nearly a six shot difference in the rating.

[Obee]

I was going to say: A couple/few times out of a hundred, so yep.

 

And if they actually played head-to-head (versus "on the same course on the same day"), for money, it would probably be less than that. Maybe one in a hundred.

[TheGeekGolfer]

GeekGolfer,

 

Just so we are clear, how often do you think a four beats the 130th ranked LPGA player?

If you take an average 4 hdcp, it wouldn't be very often, maybe 5%. If you take the the longer hitting 4 hdcp, that used to be scratch, but is now a 4. I'd give it better odds, maybe 20% of the matches would be won by the 4 hdcp. So the LPGA player would win the majority of the time. Either way the answer is YES, a 4 hdcp make could beat an LPGA player.

 

The question doesn't even specify the ranking, so picking the 130th ranked LPGA player is generous. Just like me picking the longer hitting 4 hdcp is also generous to benefit my argument.

 

The question is NOT, will a 4 hdcp male always (or even more often or not) beat an LPGA player. Some say that's implied or it means, 'can he keep up'. Well, unless I missed it, I don't recall the OP coming in and adding that to the thread. I might have, I didn't go back and re-read all the posts at this point.

 

Even if it means, 'can the 4 hdcp keep up' with the LPGA player, how do you answer that. If he loses by 3 or 4 shots, I'd say, yes...he 'kept up. Which, if a couple of putts fell his way and she missed a tough up and down, he could win. Did Anika 'keep up' with the PGA pros when she played with them? Yes! Would the 150th ranked player, 'keep up?', I doubt it.

[bluedot]

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

 

It is critical to note that a tournament average of 74.12 is a very different creature than a 4 index, if for no other reason that there is no ESC involved in that 74.12. Add to that the fact that 74.12 is the average of ALL Grenada's rounds for a full year on Tour, rather than the 10 best of her last 20, and that ALL of her rounds were under tournament conditions and pressure.

[bluedot]

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

 

In my experience, a 4 handicap will shoot a tournament round of 74 on a typical "men's length/rated" course (not tipped, not a short course) about 1 in 20 tries. They'll probably average more like 80, and I would put their low end right around 74. Anything lower would start to get into "career round" territory.

 

For the record, I used to be a 4 handicap, have played with dozens of people around 4 handicap on a regular basis, and have played in many tournaments, both as a 4 handicap myself and with other 4 handicaps.

 

I think these are pretty good guesses. FWIW, I played approx. 35 stroke play tournament rounds in 2016, and my low round was exactly 74 (Players Course at Bryan Park in Greensboro, NC). A bunch of 78 type rounds, and a few that I don't want to talk about anymore.

 

I think we all know that a round of tournament golf is a very different critter from a casual round with buddies. There's even a Bobby Jones quote to that effect: "There's golf, and then there is tournament golf." So a stroke average of 74.12 on Tour (ANY Tour...) is a very different critter than my average at the club.

[CallawayLefty]

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

 

It is critical to note that a tournament average of 74.12 is a very different creature than a 4 index, if for no other reason that there is no ESC involved in that 74.12. Add to that the fact that 74.12 is the average of ALL Grenada's rounds for a full year on Tour, rather than the 10 best of her last 20, and that ALL of her rounds were under tournament conditions and pressure.

 

4 handicap playing a full season of tournaments on LPGA courses with no ESC averages 81 or worse. Their low round is 73 (generous), their high round is flirting with 90. Most of the time they shoot about 80. They shoot 85 more often than they shoot 75. They shoot in the 80s more than they shoot in the 70s. Their 10 best of 20 averages 6 or 7 over the course rating (adjusting their 4 for tournaments, and I usually find 2-3 strokes to be about the right number).

[bluedot]

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

 

It is critical to note that a tournament average of 74.12 is a very different creature than a 4 index, if for no other reason that there is no ESC involved in that 74.12. Add to that the fact that 74.12 is the average of ALL Grenada's rounds for a full year on Tour, rather than the 10 best of her last 20, and that ALL of her rounds were under tournament conditions and pressure.

 

4 handicap playing a full season of tournaments on LPGA courses with no ESC averages 81 or worse. Their low round is 73 (generous), their high round is flirting with 90. Most of the time they shoot about 80. They shoot 85 more often than they shoot 75. They shoot in the 80s more than they shoot in the 70s. Their 10 best of 20 averages 6 or 7 over the course rating (adjusting their 4 for tournaments, and I usually find 2-3 strokes to be about the right number).

 

Agreed on all counts.

 

And there's the answer to the original question posed 49 pages ago, btw. Again...

[nsxguy]

GeekGolfer,

 

Just so we are clear, how often do you think a four beats the 130th ranked LPGA player?

 

I'm going to guess Obee. Once out of 35 rounds?

 

Well there is the answer, or an answer for the topic of this thread. The answer is yes, a 4 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. The topic was never "Is a 4 handicapper a better golfer?" despite people's attempts to make it that.

 

So we're back to this (for the 14th time)? So I guess you'd take the position that a 36 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. I mean sure, it will only happen about 1 in a trillion times if the LPGA player falls down and breaks her arm mid round...but it can happen. The implied topic, although imprecisely stated, was always whether a 4 handicap can more or less "keep up" with an LPGA player. Not whether in the event of a massive statistical anomaly the 4 handicap can beat an LPGA player. One is an interesting question with a simple answer (the 4 handicap loses at least 99% of the time). The other is an impossibly narrow question with a silly answer - e.g. that Lydia Ko can be beaten by a 4 handicap if she gets run over by a Ferrari mid round.

 

Taking a legitimate example and expanding it to ridiculous lengths/analogies does nothing to "prove" your point. Quite the opposite actually.

 

The question is in the heading. And just to refresh your memory here is the OP,,,,, it is followed by responses/opinions printed, I believe, in Golf Digest.

 

In her August "Ask Stina" column, Senior Editor Stina Sternberg responded to the question of whether a 4-handicap male player could outplay an LPGA pro. A reader had a friend who thought he could. Stina called the man "delusional." "As a 4-handicapper, he'd get so badly beaten by any of the LPGA's 152 players (even those with nonexempt status) that he'd have a tough time getting back up." The question, and Stina's response, generated a lot of (mostly male) mail.

 

So thanks for YOUR attempt at restating the issue anyway.

 

The difference in handicap between a lower tier LPGA Pro and a 4 'cap is 4 shots. A couple of bad/good breaks off the tee and a couple of putts that fall (or don't) makes a difference. Not to mention the 5-600 additional yards taking the lady out of her comfort zone.

 

So yes, he COULD. How often ? Who knows ? "HE" has between 3-5 differentials BELOW his handicap. "SHE" has 15 or so differentials ABOVE her 'cap. If you can't see instances of those numbers intersecting I don't know what to tell you. :dntknw:

[Bad9]

From reading the last week of this topic my take away is that to be a 4 cap you have to play a 7000yd + course. There are no 4 caps who play and have their cap based on anything shorter. :derisive:

[CallawayLefty]

GeekGolfer,

 

Just so we are clear, how often do you think a four beats the 130th ranked LPGA player?

 

I'm going to guess Obee. Once out of 35 rounds?

 

Well there is the answer, or an answer for the topic of this thread. The answer is yes, a 4 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. The topic was never "Is a 4 handicapper a better golfer?" despite people's attempts to make it that.

 

So we're back to this (for the 14th time)? So I guess you'd take the position that a 36 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. I mean sure, it will only happen about 1 in a trillion times if the LPGA player falls down and breaks her arm mid round...but it can happen. The implied topic, although imprecisely stated, was always whether a 4 handicap can more or less "keep up" with an LPGA player. Not whether in the event of a massive statistical anomaly the 4 handicap can beat an LPGA player. One is an interesting question with a simple answer (the 4 handicap loses at least 99% of the time). The other is an impossibly narrow question with a silly answer - e.g. that Lydia Ko can be beaten by a 4 handicap if she gets run over by a Ferrari mid round.

 

Taking a legitimate example and expanding it to ridiculous lengths/analogies does nothing to "prove" your point. Quite the opposite actually.

 

The question is in the heading. And just to refresh your memory here is the OP,,,,, it is followed by responses/opinions printed, I believe, in Golf Digest.

 

In her August "Ask Stina" column, Senior Editor Stina Sternberg responded to the question of whether a 4-handicap male player could outplay an LPGA pro. A reader had a friend who thought he could. Stina called the man "delusional." "As a 4-handicapper, he'd get so badly beaten by any of the LPGA's 152 players (even those with nonexempt status) that he'd have a tough time getting back up." The question, and Stina's response, generated a lot of (mostly male) mail.

 

So thanks for YOUR attempt at restating the issue anyway.

 

The difference in handicap between a lower tier LPGA Pro and a 4 'cap is 4 shots. A couple of bad/good breaks off the tee and a couple of putts that fall (or don't) makes a difference. Not to mention the 5-600 additional yards taking the lady out of her comfort zone.

 

So yes, he COULD. How often ? Who knows ? "HE" has between 3-5 differentials BELOW his handicap. "SHE" has 15 or so differentials ABOVE her 'cap. If you can't see instances of those numbers intersecting I don't know what to tell you. :dntknw:

 

Ok then I guess the thread has finally ended. A 4 handicap could beat an LPGA player. A 36 handicap could beat an LPGA player. A badmitton player could beat an LPGA player. Elvis could be alive in Australia. Tiny spacemen could be inside Donald Trump's head. Sorry we had so much debate on an issue that was so cut and dry.

[BMC]

This whole thread is MARKETING.

 

OP = GOLF DIGEST

 

I think we know who the winner is.

[CallawayLefty]

This whole thread is MARKETING.

 

OP = GOLF DIGEST

 

I think we know who the winner is.

 

The 4 handicap is also the unsung hero of this thread. Scratch is so 2008. Ever since this thread everybody just wants to be the ruthless 4 handicap that goes around carrying it 270 off every tee, shooting under par with regularity, and dispatching professional golfers, but who does so with the impunity of still getting a couple of pops on league night.

[BMC]

This whole thread is MARKETING.

 

OP = GOLF DIGEST

 

I think we know who the winner is.

 

The 4 handicap is also the unsung hero of this thread. Scratch is so 2008. Ever since this thread everybody just wants to be the ruthless 4 handicap that goes around carrying it 270 off every tee, shooting under par with regularity, and dispatching professional golfers, but who does so with the impunity of still getting a couple of pops on league night.

 

^True dat. Arnold Palmer was one of the most notorious 4 cappers of all time. Had his own Cessna.