Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

farmer · February 10, 2017

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

It is critical to note that a tournament average of 74.12 is a very different creature than a 4 index, if for no other reason that there is no ESC involved in that 74.12. Add to that the fact that 74.12 is the average of ALL Grenada's rounds for a full year on Tour, rather than the 10 best of her last 20, and that ALL of her rounds were under tournament conditions and pressure.

The stats I found had Marion Ricardeau at 130, with a scoring avg of 73.22. So, your points are not only valid, but spot on. Geek is moving the goalposts with the 4 who used to be a scratch, is still a phenomenal ballstriker who just can't practice anymore, yadda yadda. The Yeti of golf forums. The harder the course, the wider the gap will be between a professional tour player and a hdcp player, particularly a mid-single digit player.

PJ72 · February 10, 2017

What the average player thinks he carries the ball and what he actual does are normal two very different numbers in my experience. Unless you have been on a LM its really difficult to know for sure.

The average player uses the tee marker and fairway markers to gauge their carry and total distance, which provides a distance that is completely wrong most of the time.

Or you could pitch onto a green 270 yards away. I've done it many times and have seen others hit it onto greens further than that. There are plenty of am's with mid single digit handicaps that have clubhead speeds 110-120mph.

I agree though - carry distance is nothing like total distance, can be 10-50 yards more.

I agree with that if you can shoot the flag with a laser or use a GPS device and confirm its 270 yards. Many holes are shorter than the yardage states at the tee marker. I'm not saying a 4 handicap cannot have a 110 mph clubhead speed or cannot hit it 300 yards, I'm just saying some really don't know.

I've played with many amateurs that "think" they have a 110 mph clubhead speed and hit it 300 because they subtract the yardage for their approach shot from the yardage on tee marker. This is a false validation of true yardage in most cases. Some of these same players are often 10 yards behind my 280 yard drive (confirmed with mark function on GPS) and 105 mph clubhead speed.

Case in point - 18th hole at my course is 511 yard par 5. With a good drive I have 190-200 for my approach. Now, by using the method of subtracting approach yardage from tee marker yardage I just hit a 310-320 yard drive. However, using GPS or a laser the actual yardage of my drive is more like 275-285. This is because the hole is a slight dog-leg left and a straight drive cuts off a little yardage.

Another example is the 311 yard 4th hole at my course. Ever so slight dogleg left. True yardage to center is 290.

Rod, I definitely agree that us amateurs can be fooled by course yardage, doglegs etc. And often we will hit a great drive straight out of the 'screws' and it only goes 240yards and were scratching our heads. Only way to know is to laser it back to the tee. It's a funny game where a good drive can travel 240 yards and sometimes it can travel 350 yards. I once hit a drive, uphill and massively downwind on our 15th Par 5 560~ yards - was left with 160yards in. That would say to me that it was a 400 yard drive BUT when you factor in the slight dogleg and the corner being slightly cut then the real distance of the hole is probably 530~. so the drive was 'only' 370 yards.

Some days it's effortless and you're booming 260+ drives, others it's a struggle to hit 240.

deadsolid...shank · February 10, 2017

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

It is critical to note that a tournament average of 74.12 is a very different creature than a 4 index, if for no other reason that there is no ESC involved in that 74.12. Add to that the fact that 74.12 is the average of ALL Grenada's rounds for a full year on Tour, rather than the 10 best of her last 20, and that ALL of her rounds were under tournament conditions and pressure.

In reality though, how often does ESC really come into play for a four who isn't a vanity cap? Once a week, once a month? And if ESC was applied during a round odds are that isn't one of the four's counting rounds anyway.

TheGeekGolfer · February 10, 2017

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

It is critical to note that a tournament average of 74.12 is a very different creature than a 4 index, if for no other reason that there is no ESC involved in that 74.12. Add to that the fact that 74.12 is the average of ALL Grenada's rounds for a full year on Tour, rather than the 10 best of her last 20, and that ALL of her rounds were under tournament conditions and pressure.
The stats I found had Marion Ricardeau at 130, with a scoring avg of 73.22. So, your points are not only valid, but spot on. Geek is moving the goalposts with the 4 who used to be a scratch, is still a phenomenal ballstriker who just can't practice anymore, yadda yadda. The Yeti of golf forums. The harder the course, the wider the gap will be between a professional tour player and a hdcp player, particularly a mid-single digit player.

I'm not moving the goalposts or changing the parameters. The question, hopefully for the last time, is "can a 4 hdcp male beat an LPGA pro"? I'm just saying that for me to bet on it, that would be the type of '4 hdcp' that I would give a good or fighting chance. No, they are not the average 4 hdcp, or the common 4 hdcp. However, they certainly exist and that is the high potential type player that I feel could do it.

Forged4ever · February 10, 2017

A better indicator is tournament scoring average ONLY.
BINGO!!

Couldn't agree more Obes?

As Madison brought up earlier, a 4~ cap can't even compete in the Championship flight of our Clubs

I don't care how far back ya move the friggin tees??

I hope that you're well Bro and it's all Fairways & Greens ⛳️

My Best,
Richard

But nobody is asking if the four could compete in the championship flight at good clubs. Could the theoretical LPGA'er (100th ranked) compete in your championship flight? Especially if you move those tees back.

This is the one that I thought that ya deleted Bro, lmao

I didn't realize that it was 3-4 pages back, lol

The reason that I compared a 4~ to the Best in a Players' Club is because, and I don't care what numbers on paper say, on a course, in a competitive match, for either money or in a tournament setting, they can't beat a good female Class A, much less one of the Top-125 LPGA Players, LMAO

No way No day No how?

My last trip to Isleworth in '12 the foursome was myself, Madison, my Tour Bud and Suzann Petterson.

We Played the Palmer tees(Par 72) which were 7080yds+ that day and Maddie had a 74(with a brain dead 3-putt bogie on 18 after going 468yds w/drive, 18*h to 12'), I had a 72, Suzann a 71 and my Bud had a 70.

There's no 4~ that I know that you could drop into that group on that track from those tees and have em go south of 79-80, much less 74 or less

No way No day No how?

Two things here that I don't expect someone to understand unless one, they've either Played competitively at Plus or Professionally or two, they've actually Played in a scratch money game or tournament against a Plus or Pro and that is that it is a very different game mentally. As is usually the case, one cannot usually understand just how different because they've never experienced it

Someone who has Played for the roof over their head, the food on their table and/or the vehicle in their garage, be they male or female, whether they are ranked #100, 125 or 150, will laugh at a 4~, then go out and beat his ...

All Day Every Day Every Way?

Regarding the tees at my club, Oakmont, Fox Chapel GC, St. Clair or any Players' club for that matter, they are located in one area-

Back.....

This of course is nothing more than my .03 worth?

Stay well Bro and have a great weekend?

My Best,

RP

Chomper · February 10, 2017

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

It is critical to note that a tournament average of 74.12 is a very different creature than a 4 index, if for no other reason that there is no ESC involved in that 74.12. Add to that the fact that 74.12 is the average of ALL Grenada's rounds for a full year on Tour, rather than the 10 best of her last 20, and that ALL of her rounds were under tournament conditions and pressure.

In reality though, how often does ESC really come into play for a four who isn't a vanity cap? Once a week, once a month? And if ESC was applied during a round odds are that isn't one of the four's counting rounds anyway.

ESC for a 4 cap on a tough course comes into play a lot more often than on an easier, wider open course.

Hell, I played two rounds over three days with a +1.5 cap, young guy who hits the snot out of the ball, and he took 4 ESC in our two rounds. All it takes is one ball out of play, or an unplayable lie and a three putt. Just because you see the scratch golfers in the LPGA (or on tour) hole out all shots does not mean that they get double at worst.

TheGeekGolfer · February 10, 2017

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

It is critical to note that a tournament average of 74.12 is a very different creature than a 4 index, if for no other reason that there is no ESC involved in that 74.12. Add to that the fact that 74.12 is the average of ALL Grenada's rounds for a full year on Tour, rather than the 10 best of her last 20, and that ALL of her rounds were under tournament conditions and pressure.

In reality though, how often does ESC really come into play for a four who isn't a vanity cap? Once a week, once a month? And if ESC was applied during a round odds are that isn't one of the four's counting rounds anyway.
ESC for a 4 cap on a tough course comes into play a lot more often than on an easier, wider open course.

Hell, I played two rounds over three days with a +1.5 cap, young guy who hits the snot out of the ball, and he took 4 ESC in our two rounds. All it takes is one ball out of play, or an unplayable lie and a three putt. Just because you see the scratch golfers in the LPGA (or on tour) hole out all shots does not mean that they get double at worst.

I really dislike the whole ESC thing w/ handicaps. When someone is a higher hdcp, those big numbers are what kept them from getting their hdcp lower. Then they get rid of the bigger numbers and the hdcp goes down. Now, if someone has a single digit hdcp and they start making big numbers again on a few holes a round, ESC comes into play and their hdcp stays the same. At least that's the way I understand it.

Chomper · February 10, 2017

I really dislike the whole ESC thing w/ handicaps. When someone is a higher hdcp, those big numbers are what kept them from getting their hdcp lower. Then they get rid of the bigger numbers and the hdcp goes down. Now, if someone has a single digit hdcp and they start making big numbers again on a few holes a round, ESC comes into play and their hdcp stays the same. At least that's the way I understand it.

Agree. I blow up regularly, and because of ESC my cap is artificially low. It sucks.

b.helts · February 10, 2017

Not sure guys. If you make 15 pars, a birdie and 2 8's you probably aren't a 5 handicap, or whatever that'd work out to be.

Shilgy · February 10, 2017

A better indicator is tournament scoring average ONLY.
BINGO!!

Couldn't agree more Obes?

As Madison brought up earlier, a 4~ cap can't even compete in the Championship flight of our Clubs

I don't care how far back ya move the friggin tees??

I hope that you're well Bro and it's all Fairways & Greens ⛳️

My Best,
Richard

But nobody is asking if the four could compete in the championship flight at good clubs. Could the theoretical LPGA'er (100th ranked) compete in your championship flight? Especially if you move those tees back.
This is the one that I thought that ya deleted Bro, lmao

I didn't realize that it was 3-4 pages back, lol

The reason that I compared a 4~ to the Best in a Players' Club is because, and I don't care what numbers on paper say, on a course, in a competitive match, for either money or in a tournament setting, they can't beat a good female Class A, much less one of the Top-125 LPGA Players, LMAO

No way No day No how?

My last trip to Isleworth in '12 the foursome was myself, Madison, my Tour Bud and Suzann Petterson.

We Played the Palmer tees(Par 72) which were 7080yds+ that day and Maddie had a 74(with a brain dead 3-putt bogie on 18 after going 468yds w/drive, 18*h to 12'), I had a 72, Suzann a 71 and my Bud had a 70.

There's no 4~ that I know that you could drop into that group on that track from those tees and have em go south of 79-80, much less 74 or less

No way No day No how?

Two things here that I don't expect someone to understand unless one, they've either Played competitively at Plus or Professionally or two, they've actually Played in a scratch money game or tournament against a Plus or Pro and that is that it is a very different game mentally. As is usually the case, one cannot usually understand just how different because they've never experienced it

Someone who has Played for the roof over their head, the food on their table and/or the vehicle in their garage, be they male or female, whether they are ranked #100, 125 or 150, will laugh at a 4~, then go out and beat his ...

All Day Every Day Every Way?

Regarding the tees at my club, Oakmont, Fox Chapel GC, St. Clair or any Players' club for that matter, they are located in one area-

Back.....

This of course is nothing more than my .03 worth?

Stay well Bro and have a great weekend?

My Best,
RP

Yeah but, this is the mythical unicorn tournament tested 4 that carries it 270 and used to be scratch. Hah, beat that! :)

Guia · February 10, 2017

This is like the bad date that never ends.

Please DIE.

deadsolid...shank · February 10, 2017

This is like the bad date that never ends.

Please DIE.

No one is forcing you to continue reading it.

Guia · February 10, 2017

No one is forcing you to keep writing. :busted_cop:

Obee · February 10, 2017

This whole thread is MARKETING.

OP = GOLF DIGEST

I think we know who the winner is.

The 4 handicap is also the unsung hero of this thread. Scratch is so 2008. Ever since this thread everybody just wants to be the ruthless 4 handicap that goes around carrying it 270 off every tee, shooting under par with regularity, and dispatching professional golfers, but who does so with the impunity of still getting a couple of pops on league night.

L. M. A. O.

nsxguy · February 11, 2017

Well there is the answer, or an answer for the topic of this thread. The answer is yes, a 4 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. The topic was never "Is a 4 handicapper a better golfer?" despite people's attempts to make it that.

So we're back to this (for the 14th time)? So I guess you'd take the position that a 36 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. I mean sure, it will only happen about 1 in a trillion times if the LPGA player falls down and breaks her arm mid round...but it can happen. The implied topic, although imprecisely stated, was always whether a 4 handicap can more or less "keep up" with an LPGA player. Not whether in the event of a massive statistical anomaly the 4 handicap can beat an LPGA player. One is an interesting question with a simple answer (the 4 handicap loses at least 99% of the time). The other is an impossibly narrow question with a silly answer - e.g. that Lydia Ko can be beaten by a 4 handicap if she gets run over by a Ferrari mid round.

Taking a legitimate example and expanding it to ridiculous lengths/analogies does nothing to "prove" your point. Quite the opposite actually.

The question is in the heading. And just to refresh your memory here is the OP,,,,, it is followed by responses/opinions printed, I believe, in Golf Digest.

In her August "Ask Stina" column, Senior Editor Stina Sternberg responded to the question of whether a 4-handicap male player could outplay an LPGA pro. A reader had a friend who thought he could. Stina called the man "delusional." "As a 4-handicapper, he'd get so badly beaten by any of the LPGA's 152 players (even those with nonexempt status) that he'd have a tough time getting back up." The question, and Stina's response, generated a lot of (mostly male) mail.

So thanks for YOUR attempt at restating the issue anyway.

The difference in handicap between a lower tier LPGA Pro and a 4 'cap is 4 shots. A couple of bad/good breaks off the tee and a couple of putts that fall (or don't) makes a difference. Not to mention the 5-600 additional yards taking the lady out of her comfort zone.

So yes, he COULD. How often ? Who knows ? "HE" has between 3-5 differentials BELOW his handicap. "SHE" has 15 or so differentials ABOVE her 'cap. If you can't see instances of those numbers intersecting I don't know what to tell you. :dntknw:

Ok then I guess the thread has finally ended. A 4 handicap could beat an LPGA player. A 36 handicap could beat an LPGA player. A badmitton player could beat an LPGA player. Elvis could be alive in Australia. Tiny spacemen could be inside Donald Trump's head. Sorry we had so much debate on an issue that was so cut and dry.

Saying the same old ridiculous things over and over again does nothing to support your argument(s).

Then again, you're banking on the fact that if a "lie" is repeated often enough it become "truth".

OK, I'm done here. (You're ALL welcome :hi: ) YOU win. You can keep

glk · February 11, 2017

Well there is the answer, or an answer for the topic of this thread. The answer is yes, a 4 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. The topic was never "Is a 4 handicapper a better golfer?" despite people's attempts to make it that.

So we're back to this (for the 14th time)? So I guess you'd take the position that a 36 handicapper can beat an LPGA player. I mean sure, it will only happen about 1 in a trillion times if the LPGA player falls down and breaks her arm mid round...but it can happen. The implied topic, although imprecisely stated, was always whether a 4 handicap can more or less "keep up" with an LPGA player. Not whether in the event of a massive statistical anomaly the 4 handicap can beat an LPGA player. One is an interesting question with a simple answer (the 4 handicap loses at least 99% of the time). The other is an impossibly narrow question with a silly answer - e.g. that Lydia Ko can be beaten by a 4 handicap if she gets run over by a Ferrari mid round.

Taking a legitimate example and expanding it to ridiculous lengths/analogies does nothing to "prove" your point. Quite the opposite actually.

The question is in the heading. And just to refresh your memory here is the OP,,,,, it is followed by responses/opinions printed, I believe, in Golf Digest.

In her August "Ask Stina" column, Senior Editor Stina Sternberg responded to the question of whether a 4-handicap male player could outplay an LPGA pro. A reader had a friend who thought he could. Stina called the man "delusional." "As a 4-handicapper, he'd get so badly beaten by any of the LPGA's 152 players (even those with nonexempt status) that he'd have a tough time getting back up." The question, and Stina's response, generated a lot of (mostly male) mail.

So thanks for YOUR attempt at restating the issue anyway.

The difference in handicap between a lower tier LPGA Pro and a 4 'cap is 4 shots. A couple of bad/good breaks off the tee and a couple of putts that fall (or don't) makes a difference. Not to mention the 5-600 additional yards taking the lady out of her comfort zone.

So yes, he COULD. How often ? Who knows ? "HE" has between 3-5 differentials BELOW his handicap. "SHE" has 15 or so differentials ABOVE her 'cap. If you can't see instances of those numbers intersecting I don't know what to tell you. :dntknw:

Ok then I guess the thread has finally ended. A 4 handicap could beat an LPGA player. A 36 handicap could beat an LPGA player. A badmitton player could beat an LPGA player. Elvis could be alive in Australia. Tiny spacemen could be inside Donald Trump's head. Sorry we had so much debate on an issue that was so cut and dry.

Saying the same old ridiculous things over and over again does nothing to support your argument(s).

Then again, you're banking on the fact that if a "lie" is repeated often enough it become "truth".

OK, I'm done here. (You're ALL welcome :hi: ) YOU win. You can keep

As has been pointed out even the "lower" tier LPGA players average 74 for their season on courses in the 6500-6600 yd range that play to around 73/135 ratings - some higher some lower - in tournament conditions. That's an average of all of their scores.

A 4 capper is that based on the 10 best of their last 20 - and 96% of that differentials when you include slope adjustment. When my index was 4.9 (on predominately two course at around 6500 yd and 71.1/129 and 71.7 134) I average 77.8 for my 10 best and 83.9 for my 10 worst - total average of 80.8 - that's a difference of almost 7 strokes and a world of difference since I was playing casual rounds with my buddies for pocket change, relatively speaking.

SurfDuffer · February 11, 2017

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

It is critical to note that a tournament average of 74.12 is a very different creature than a 4 index, if for no other reason that there is no ESC involved in that 74.12. Add to that the fact that 74.12 is the average of ALL Grenada's rounds for a full year on Tour, rather than the 10 best of her last 20, and that ALL of her rounds were under tournament conditions and pressure.

4 handicap playing a full season of tournaments on LPGA courses with no ESC averages 81 or worse. Their low round is 73 (generous), their high round is flirting with 90. Most of the time they shoot about 80. They shoot 85 more often than they shoot 75. They shoot in the 80s more than they shoot in the 70s. Their 10 best of 20 averages 6 or 7 over the course rating (adjusting their 4 for tournaments, and I usually find 2-3 strokes to be about the right number).

So the day that guy shoots 73, 74, or 75 and an LPGA player shoots a 76 who shot the better score THAT DAY?????!!!!!!!!!

shotmark · February 11, 2017

Are we talking net or gross?

dap · February 11, 2017

The 4 capper might catch her at the right time of month?

Forged4ever · February 11, 2017

This is like the bad date that never ends.

Please DIE.

So says the rubbernecker?

I'm just joshin ?

Have a nice weekend?

My Best,

Richard

Forged4ever · February 11, 2017

No one is forcing you to keep writing. :busted_cop:

Where there is a demand, so too will there ALWAYS be a supply?

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friend ⛳️

RP

CallawayLefty · February 11, 2017

FWIW, in regards to Obee's question. From what I could find, 2016, 130th rated player is Julieta Grenada with a scoring average of 74.12.

It is critical to note that a tournament average of 74.12 is a very different creature than a 4 index, if for no other reason that there is no ESC involved in that 74.12. Add to that the fact that 74.12 is the average of ALL Grenada's rounds for a full year on Tour, rather than the 10 best of her last 20, and that ALL of her rounds were under tournament conditions and pressure.

4 handicap playing a full season of tournaments on LPGA courses with no ESC averages 81 or worse. Their low round is 73 (generous), their high round is flirting with 90. Most of the time they shoot about 80. They shoot 85 more often than they shoot 75. They shoot in the 80s more than they shoot in the 70s. Their 10 best of 20 averages 6 or 7 over the course rating (adjusting their 4 for tournaments, and I usually find 2-3 strokes to be about the right number).

So the day that guy shoots 73, 74, or 75 and an LPGA player shoots a 76 who shot the better score THAT DAY?????!!!!!!!!!

I've debated for a long time and thought about all the possibilities. I'm going to go with the LPGA player. They're just that good.

flog2 · February 11, 2017

....and the tanker keeps on going..................

can an admin sink the mutha!

mdgboxx · February 11, 2017

....and the tanker keeps on going..................

can an admin sink the mutha!

You would need to report it, and have a valid reason. Otherwise it's at their discretion, unless contacted by the tread starter. IIRC

EDIT: It's easier to ignore the thread.

PowderedToastMan · February 11, 2017

Every night I pray for spring to come and golf to come back. When I wake up, instead I see snow and this thread. Snow isn't torture enough apparently.

Smash Factors · February 12, 2017

Wow. This thread still? Unreal...

IT'S HIGHLY IMPROBABLE, but yes if a 4 capper played from the ladies tees he could beat an LPGA pro.

However, over several rounds, the LPGA pro will have the lower over-all score. There's no possible way that a 4 capper will consistently beat one of those gals. Keep in mind, a 4 capper doesn't even break par. I'm a 6 and have never broke par.

SurfDuffer · February 12, 2017

....and the tanker keeps on going..................

can an admin sink the mutha!

Who is forcing you to click on this thread? Perhaps you should complain to that person.......

flog2 · February 12, 2017

....and the tanker keeps on going..................

can an admin sink the mutha!

Who is forcing you to click on this thread? Perhaps you should complain to that person.......

oh dear the sensible police and his pals are here :superman2:

flog2 · February 12, 2017

Wow. This thread still? Unreal...

IT'S HIGHLY IMPROBABLE, but yes if a 4 capper played from the ladies tees he could beat an LPGA pro.

However, over several rounds, the LPGA pro will have the lower over-all score. There's no possible way that a 4 capper will consistently beat one of those gals. Keep in mind, a 4 capper doesn't even break par. I'm a 6 and have never broke par.

I'm a 7 and have broken it many times on different courses.........................once was even when I was awake!

mdgboxx · February 12, 2017

....and the tanker keeps on going..................

can an admin sink the mutha!

Who is forcing you to click on this thread? Perhaps you should complain to that person.......

oh dear the sensible police and his pals are here :superman2:

If you keep on doing what you've been doing, you'll keep on getting what you've been getting!!! :fan_1: :beruo: