ANNOUNCEMENT:
Please have patience. We understand that this sucks and it will get MUCH better.

Link to full post HERE
Please add any bugs (problems) with new software in the Website Help Forum. There is a dedicated thread HERE.

Titleist golf ball study; Finally, some facts added to the debate

Roadking2003Roadking2003 Advanced Members Posts: 4,914 ✭✭
Titleist has done a great job documenting the history of the golf ball. It's the best study about the evolution of the golf ball I have ever seen. And I totally agree with their conclusion; There is no need to change the current golf ball.



http://media.titleis...ogy_2017-sm.pdf



Also, if you look at the 2017 season you will notice these facts;



Of the top 20 in driving distance, only three are also top 10 in money,



Only three are also top ten in scoring,



Only one is also top ten in GIRs (so obviously long driving doesn't help you hit greens),



15 of the top 20 didn't win a tournament,



Four of the top nine in driving distance finished out of the top 100 in money.



The correlation between driving distance and success is currently very low as noted by Titleist.
«13456712

Comments

  • gvogelgvogel Advanced Members Posts: 6,997 ✭✭
    I appreciate that all of the conclusions that Wally Uihlein comes to, but it is also a fact that average driving distance has increased almost 30 yards from 1995 to 2010. In order to accommodate that increase, golf courses for elite players have had to increase length.



    If you roll the ball back about 10%, older courses can still be relevant; Augusta would not have to lengthen the 13th hole and others.



    And none of the conclusions in the Titleist study would change. Some of the longest drivers would also be in the top 10 in money, but not all, because putting and short game are also so important. Long hitters would still have an advantage over shorter hitters, but shorter hitters with accuracy and short game skills would still compete.



    The roll back debate is not about the relative distance abilities of elite golfers. It is about the modern game and how it is played on older golf courses.
    On Sundays, I used to play hickory
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 Advanced Members Posts: 4,914 ✭✭
    Did you read the study? There has been no increase over the past decade.



    Clubhead size correlates almost exactly with driving distance. As does length of fairway grass.



    So it would be just as easy to change fairway grass height and every course could choose to do it at little or no cost.
  • gvogelgvogel Advanced Members Posts: 6,997 ✭✭


    Did you read the study? There has been no increase over the past decade.



    Clubhead size correlates almost exactly with driving distance. As does length of fairway grass.



    So it would be just as easy to change fairway grass height and every course could choose to do it at little or no cost.




    Did you read the study? It is not the past decade that is relevant to the discussion. It is about what happened from 1995 to 2005. It has taken the golf community many more years to fully understand what happened in that time period, and address the concerns.
    On Sundays, I used to play hickory
  • gvogelgvogel Advanced Members Posts: 6,997 ✭✭
    By the way, when I was playing pretty good golf back in the late 70's and 80's, we took it for granted that some par 4 holes, in some conditions, were not reachable in 2 shots. Only the really long guys could get to a 420 yard par 4 playing into the wind.



    Now it seems that the current generation feels entitled to reach any par 4 in two shots because of equipment advances. Your conclusion will be different than mine.
    On Sundays, I used to play hickory
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 16,729 ClubWRX
    LOL, Jack Nicklaus an anti-technology activist - **** on Wally!



    It's not a "study" so it can't be the best study. There are a few charts that show some pretty simple correlations and don't even try to explain the other variables or control for them, not a study.



    It's a PR piece designed to spin (pun intended) all the talk about the golf ball being the problem.



    Plenty of issues in the debate, Crossfield sensibly addressed some of them besides the golf ball, but this is nothing but unabashed marketing rhetoric by Titleist (and thanks for the ProV1s, I love them).
  • lawsonmanlawsonman Advanced Members Posts: 5,081 ✭✭
    I think the whole golf ball and club debate is a bunch of ****. 99.9% of golfers that pay to play the game don't hit it too far. If the USGA wants to change the way the pros play that's fine. Leave the rest of us alone!
    Welcome to where dumb opinions are better than no opinion. :)

    Ping G400 9°
    Ping Anser 17,20,23,27 Hybrid
    Ping Iblade 6-PW
    Ping Glide 54,58ES
    Ping Ketsch Vault 2.0
    Ping DLX Bag
  • UhitUhit Advanced Members Posts: 861


    Titleist has done a great job documenting the history of the golf ball. It's the best study about the evolution of the golf ball I have ever seen. And I totally agree with their conclusion; There is no need to change the current golf ball.



    http://media.titleis...ogy_2017-sm.pdf



    Also, if you look at the 2017 season you will notice these facts;



    Of the top 20 in driving distance, only three are also top 10 in money,



    Only three are also top ten in scoring,



    Only one is also top ten in GIRs (so obviously long driving doesn't help you hit greens),



    15 of the top 20 didn't win a tournament,



    Four of the top nine in driving distance finished out of the top 100 in money.



    The correlation between driving distance and success is currently very low as noted by Titleist.




    Never thought, that I would appreciate something made by Titleist that much.



    Thanks for sharing!



    -



    P.S.:



    OK, they also make pretty good wedges...
  • ClintDaggerClintDagger Advanced Members Posts: 557 ✭✭
    Why is Titleist responding to an argument nobody is having? Who has said the absolute longest players are winning at the highest clip? Isn’t the argument (regardless of your opinion) that the relative length of the field has changed the way the game is played thus making skills such as long and mid-iron play, and shot making less relevant than they used to be (as well as some classic golf courses)?
    TM ’16 M2 Tour 8.5* Project X HZRDUS Yellow 75g / 6.5
    TM RBZ Stage 2 Tour 14* Mitsubishi Kuro Kage TiNi 80 X
    TM P-790 (2-4 iron) TT Dynamic Gold X Seven
    TM P-760 (5-7 iron) TT Dynamic Gold X Seven
    TM P-730 (8-PW) TT Dynamic Gold X Seven
    Titleist Vokey SM 6 52* 08-F
    Titleist Vokey SM 5 60* 04-L
    Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Te I3
  • gvogelgvogel Advanced Members Posts: 6,997 ✭✭


    Why is Titleist responding to an argument nobody is having? Who has said the absolute longest players are winning at the highest clip? Isn't the argument (regardless of your opinion) that the relative length of the field has changed the way the game is played thus making skills such as long and mid-iron play, and shot making less relevant than they used to be (as well as some classic golf courses)?




    Yes.
    On Sundays, I used to play hickory
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,218 ✭✭
    Hawkeye77 wrote:


    LOL, Jack Nicklaus an anti-technology activist - **** on Wally!



    It's not a "study" so it can't be the best study. There are a few charts that show some pretty simple correlations and don't even try to explain the other variables or control for them, not a study.



    It's a PR piece designed to spin (pun intended) all the talk about the golf ball being the problem.



    Plenty of issues in the debate, Crossfield sensibly addressed some of them besides the golf ball, but this is nothing but unabashed marketing rhetoric by Titleist (and thanks for the ProV1s, I love them).




    Lol. Exactly. Why would you believe what the fox says about Gaurds for the hen house ?
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design AD DI 8X
    Ping i500 pre-production proto 3 iron Graphite Design AD DI 105X
    Ping i500 4-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged 50 54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • UhitUhit Advanced Members Posts: 861
    edited December 2017


    Why is Titleist responding to an argument nobody is having? Who has said the absolute longest players are winning at the highest clip? Isn't the argument (regardless of your opinion) that the relative length of the field has changed the way the game is played thus making skills such as long and mid-iron play, and shot making less relevant than they used to be (as well as some classic golf courses)?




    In my opinion Titleist made a overview, which helps to look at the theme from different angles - if someone is willing to...



    The argument is, that nothing has changed, distance wise, since the last 15 years - neither the long hitter, nor the field has changed since more than a decade (in terms of carry distances).





    Shot making becomes more difficult, the farther the ball travels - no matter which number is written on the golf club...



    ...the evidence can be found in the numbers the OP mentioned.





    Btw...



    ...remember, that nowadays a 6 iron has about the same loft, as a 4 iron had in the past.



    Would you be more satisfied, if they simply change the numbers, to make it easier for those who don´t realize that the same numbers represent a different loft nowadays?
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,218 ✭✭
    All this tells me is that a rollback is a real possibility. If titleist is worried enough to put out some spin then it must be getting hot in the northeast .
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design AD DI 8X
    Ping i500 pre-production proto 3 iron Graphite Design AD DI 105X
    Ping i500 4-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged 50 54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • ShilgyShilgy Advanced Members Posts: 11,097 ✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Games we play evolve over the years. The early NBA was similar to the ladies game today. NFL was more of a ground game than passing game like today. MLB has changed dramatically in just the last couple years. The abundance of no base runner at bats has increased dramatically (K's, walks, HR's).



    Golf has changed as well and some don't like it- just like some don't like the changes in other sports.

    Courses do not HAVE TO change to accommodate the longer hitters. They CHOOSE TO. All to keep another changing game from changing. Funny how some want the equipment changed but are perfectly fine with the improved agronomy we play the game on. Rather than increase spin in the construction of the ball the pros would actually have a more difficult time imo from longer grassed fairways. Reading the lie would be more of an art as fliers would be an occasional result.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    PING G400 LST Alta CB 55s
    TM M1 3w 14* Graphite Design BB7s
    TM M2 5w 18* Fujikura Atmos TS Blue 8S or Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
    Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
    Srixon Z585 5 & 6 Nippon Pro Modus 125S
    Srixon Z785 7-PW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
    Vokey SZM7 50°
    Cleveland RTX4 S400TI raw 56° & 60°
    Toulon Garage Rochester flow neck H5/ Toulon Rochester stock

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • bullie76bullie76 Advanced Members Posts: 2,161


    Did you read the study? There has been no increase over the past decade.



    Clubhead size correlates almost exactly with driving distance. As does length of fairway grass.



    So it would be just as easy to change fairway grass height and every course could choose to do it at little or no cost.




    I'm all for raising fw height a tad. Hate super tight lies.
    My senior bag.......
    Taylormade M2(2016) 9.5* driver reg
    Taylormade RBZ 13* 3 wood reg
    Adams TL2 - FW 16* 4 wood & 3,4 hybrids reg
    Ping G 6-pw(power lofts), i200 U wedge(49*).....CFS graphite reg
    Ping Glide 54/58 ss reg
    Ping Craz-E putter
  • WAxORxDCxSCWAxORxDCxSC Advanced Members Posts: 110 ✭✭
    We’ve had this debate extensively — Titleist sells a lot of balls to hackers because the best players in the world use their ball too. If you restrict the ball the best players in the world use, the marketing hype around it is diminished and Titleist could lose its advantage with the masses. They have a lot to lose if the USGA restricts the ball fight for the best players.
    TaylorMade M3 Driver 9.5* (Mitsubishi Tensei Pro Orange 70tx)
    TaylorMade M1 (2016) 3 Wood 15* (Mitsubishi Tensei Pro Blue 80tx)
    TaylorMade M2 Hybrid 19* (or) Mizuno MP-18 Fli-Hi 3 iron (Project X 6.5)
    Mizuno MP-18 Fli-Hi 4,5 iron (Project X 6.5)
    Mizuno MP5 6-PW (KBS C-Taper Lite 115x)
    Titleist Vokey SM6 50* 54*
    Taylormade Hi-Toe 60*
    Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Notchback 33"

    Bag 2 (Nostalgia Edition)
    Taylormade M1 (2017) 9.5* (Project X Hzrdus T1100 6.5 75g)
    TaylorMade M2 (2017) 3 wood
    Mizuno T-Zoid Pro II 3-PW
    Cleveland 588 52*, 56*, 60*
    Spalding T.P. Mills "Computer Milled" Putter
  • farmerfarmer Advanced Members Posts: 7,714 ✭✭
    gvogel wrote:


    By the way, when I was playing pretty good golf back in the late 70's and 80's, we took it for granted that some par 4 holes, in some conditions, were not reachable in 2 shots. Only the really long guys could get to a 420 yard par 4 playing into the wind.



    Now it seems that the current generation feels entitled to reach any par 4 in two shots because of equipment advances. Your conclusion will be different than mine.
    You were playing steel shafted wood and balata. Likely on a course that by modern agronomical standards was a goat track. You might as well compare the car you drive today to the car you drove in that era.
  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Advanced Members Posts: 25,673 ✭✭
    edited December 2017


    Titleist has done a great job documenting the history of the golf ball. It's the best study about the evolution of the golf ball I have ever seen. And I totally agree with their conclusion; There is no need to change the current golf ball.



    [url="http://media.titleist.com/images/titleist/files/us/traditionandtechnology_2017-sm.pdf"]http://media.titleis...ogy_2017-sm.pdf[/url]



    Also, if you look at the 2017 season you will notice these facts;



    Of the top 20 in driving distance, only three are also top 10 in money,



    Only three are also top ten in scoring,



    Only one is also top ten in GIRs (so obviously long driving doesn't help you hit greens),



    15 of the top 20 didn't win a tournament,



    Four of the top nine in driving distance finished out of the top 100 in money.



    The correlation between driving distance and success is currently very low as noted by Titleist.




    The study is largely devoted to the "yardage race" and pursuit of distance.



    There is a direct correlation to distance off the tee and success. Per 2017 PGA Tour stats, nearly every top player averages 295, including Spieth, and most top ten average over 300.



    The top 10 owgr,



    DJ 315

    JS 295

    JT 309

    Rahm 305

    HM 303

    Rose 301

    Rickie 300

    Brooks 311

    Stenson 292 (think he uses 3w alot]

    Rory 317



    Its nearly mandatory to average 300 off the tee to be in the top 10. So, when you say,



    "The correlation between driving distance and success is currently very low as noted by Titleist"



    Its innacurate. Id be surprised if Titleist stated this as you did but, if they did, Id argue its innacurate.



    You also misinterpret the results when you say,



    "Only one is also top ten in GIRs (so obviously long driving doesn't help you hit greens),"



    First, you could look at gir leaders and say gir is not important since few of the top 20 in gir are top 10 owgr.



    You can argue that a combo of factors contributes to distance.



    But not that, on balance, of course longer drives help you hit greens and succeed more. This is obvious to anyone.
  • mosesgolfmosesgolf Advanced Members Posts: 6,816
    gvogel wrote:


    By the way, when I was playing pretty good golf back in the late 70's and 80's, we took it for granted that some par 4 holes, in some conditions, were not reachable in 2 shots. Only the really long guys could get to a 420 yard par 4 playing into the wind.



    Now it seems that the current generation feels entitled to reach any par 4 in two shots because of equipment advances. Your conclusion will be different than mine.


    IMO every par 4 should be reachable in two. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
    Titleist 917D3 9.5 Fujikura Tour Spec 74 Stiff
    Titleist 917F2 15* Project X 75 Stiff
    Titleist 910H 19* Project X 6.0
    Titleist 910H 23 Project X 6.0
    Titleist 714MB DGS300 4-9
    Titleist Vokey 48 54 60
    Titleist Scotty Futura 34
  • augustgolfaugustgolf Golf with dignity Coastal NCAdvanced Members Posts: 3,880 ✭✭
    This past weekend, players (on Tour) were routinely hitting driver & 9 - irons and/or wedges into 18, a par 4 - 469 yards.



    Call the "new" 9 - iron an old 7 - iron if you will, but nobody hit driver/7 - iron into 469 yard par 4's in the past. They were lucky to hit a long iron if not a fairway wood.



    I understand evolution, but that is a hard fact to deny -
    Pings from the beginning

    OGA member 1415
    or is it 1514...
    I don't remember exactly
  • ByeBye Advanced Members Posts: 1,299
    IT looks like Titleist are blaming everything else for the increase in driving distances.



    The only thing that really stands out is the chart showing the increase, when was the biggest spike? Err when the Pro V1 was introduced? I remember swapping from the Tour Prestige. Swapping from a Callaway Warbird to a Taylormade Titanium didn't yield a massive increase in driving distance for me. It's the ball, it's always been the ball.



    The reason we have these arguments is because the governing bodies didn't have the balls �� To ban it straight away. I don't care if there has only been a small increase in the past 15 years, the problem arrived in 2002 -2003 and wasn't dealt with then.



    It's like the game was **** before 2002.











    Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
    Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
    Titleist 816 H2 21 degrees - Aldila Rogue Black 85X
    Titleist 716CB 4-9 - X100
    Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
    Vokey 56S, 60M - S300
    Scotty Cameron Select Fastback
    Titleist Pro V1
  • Dave230Dave230 Advanced Members Posts: 3,714 ✭✭
    The golf ball is a factor but they have a point about driver clubheads. It is much, much easier mentally to smash the driver now and know you'll get a fairly good connection on it, in comparison to 15 years ago when swinging out of your shoes could lead to an embarrassing shot.
  • 8thehardway8thehardway Advanced Members Posts: 1,900 ✭✭
    Any recreational golfer who wants to dial back the golf ball's distance need only move back a set of tees to experience the same effect. Already at the tips? Ditch the driver.



    In any case, exempt Super Seniors as I'm already depressed about my lack of distance and exempt Women, for whom Tee It Forward was always irrelevant.
    Callaway Big Bertha 12.5*
    Jones/Ortiz 4 wood 17*
    Kasco hybrid 23*
    Adams Idea Black CB2 irons 26, 29, 33, 37, 41, 45*
    Callaway MD3 S grind 52, 56, C grind 60, PM grind 64*
    Tom Slighter Needle 450g, 3* loft, 74* lie
  • Lime SharkLime Shark Advanced Members Posts: 311
    There's no need to change the best selling ball in golf?



    Who would have thought that a study by Titleist (the maker of the best selling ball in golf) would have come to that conclusion?
  • raynorfan1raynorfan1 Advanced Members Posts: 3,503 ✭✭
    augustgolf wrote:


    This past weekend, players (on Tour) were routinely hitting driver & 9 - irons and/or wedges into 18, a par 4 - 469 yards.



    Call the "new" 9 - iron an old 7 - iron if you will, but nobody hit driver/7 - iron into 469 yard par 4's in the past. They were lucky to hit a long iron if not a fairway wood.



    I understand evolution, but that is a hard fact to deny -




    Eh. Part of this is the PGA Tour "selling" distance. 18 at Albany is 470 yards when measured from the very back of a big tee box, down the middle of the fairway, then take a left turn into the green. If you measure from where the tee actually was, give yourself a 280 yard drive down the left side, you've only got 140 to the front of the green. It doesn't seem crazy to me that a touring pro can hit a drive 280 yards, or that they hit a "modern" 9 iron 140.
  • tmfool tmfool Advanced Members Posts: 1,828 ✭✭


    We’ve had this debate extensively — Titleist sells a lot of balls to hackers because the best players in the world use their ball too. If you restrict the ball the best players in the world use, the marketing hype around it is diminished and Titleist could lose its advantage with the masses. They have a lot to lose if the USGA restricts the ball fight for the best players.




    ding - ding - ding - ding.....bingo!



    you think wally is speaking for the greater good of the ball industry? the game of golf? or himself?



    que bono?
    TP MC 6-PW Steelfiber i95
    UDI 3-4-5 steelfiber i95
    Puglielli Black 52&56 s/fiber i125
    Adams XTD Superhybrid 17* s/fiber i110
    Superfast TP 13* Matrix HD7
    M2 9.5 (upright) Matrix 7M3
    SC Studio Select custom
    Snell MTB
  • ByeBye Advanced Members Posts: 1,299
    raynorfan1 wrote:

    augustgolf wrote:


    This past weekend, players (on Tour) were routinely hitting driver & 9 - irons and/or wedges into 18, a par 4 - 469 yards.



    Call the "new" 9 - iron an old 7 - iron if you will, but nobody hit driver/7 - iron into 469 yard par 4's in the past. They were lucky to hit a long iron if not a fairway wood.



    I understand evolution, but that is a hard fact to deny -




    Eh. Part of this is the PGA Tour "selling" distance. 18 at Albany is 470 yards when measured from the very back of a big tee box, down the middle of the fairway, then take a left turn into the green. If you measure from where the tee actually was, give yourself a 280 yard drive down the left side, you've only got 140 to the front of the green. It doesn't seem crazy to me that a touring pro can hit a drive 280 yards, or that they hit a "modern" 9 iron 140.




    280, at most that will be a 3 wood, probably less for most of them. So on average it will be 3 wood wedge(470) to a green that was probably designed to have a long iron hit to it.
    Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
    Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
    Titleist 816 H2 21 degrees - Aldila Rogue Black 85X
    Titleist 716CB 4-9 - X100
    Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
    Vokey 56S, 60M - S300
    Scotty Cameron Select Fastback
    Titleist Pro V1
  • ByeBye Advanced Members Posts: 1,299
    Lime Shark wrote:


    There's no need to change the best selling ball in golf?



    Who would have thought that a study by Titleist (the maker of the best selling ball in golf) would have come to that conclusion?




    Turkeys voting for Christmas!
    Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
    Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
    Titleist 816 H2 21 degrees - Aldila Rogue Black 85X
    Titleist 716CB 4-9 - X100
    Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
    Vokey 56S, 60M - S300
    Scotty Cameron Select Fastback
    Titleist Pro V1
  • raynorfan1raynorfan1 Advanced Members Posts: 3,503 ✭✭
    What I have a hard time with on the "roll it back" campaign is understanding the problem they're trying to solve. Even if we all can agree that guys hit the ball farther today than they did 30 years ago, we still haven't established why that's a problem.



    The best I can tell is that Jack Nicklaus et. al. wants everybody to believe that he was the best golfer ever, and can't accept that any one of the guys in current Top 10 would handily beat in-his-prime Jack. Athletes get better over time. Games evolve. Get over it.
  • raynorfan1raynorfan1 Advanced Members Posts: 3,503 ✭✭
    Bye wrote:

    raynorfan1 wrote:

    augustgolf wrote:


    This past weekend, players (on Tour) were routinely hitting driver & 9 - irons and/or wedges into 18, a par 4 - 469 yards.



    Call the "new" 9 - iron an old 7 - iron if you will, but nobody hit driver/7 - iron into 469 yard par 4's in the past. They were lucky to hit a long iron if not a fairway wood.



    I understand evolution, but that is a hard fact to deny -




    Eh. Part of this is the PGA Tour "selling" distance. 18 at Albany is 470 yards when measured from the very back of a big tee box, down the middle of the fairway, then take a left turn into the green. If you measure from where the tee actually was, give yourself a 280 yard drive down the left side, you've only got 140 to the front of the green. It doesn't seem crazy to me that a touring pro can hit a drive 280 yards, or that they hit a "modern" 9 iron 140.




    280, at most that will be a 3 wood, probably less for most of them. So on average it will be 3 wood wedge(470) to a green that was probably designed to have a long iron hit to it.




    Don't believe the hype. Average driver is 275 on the Tour. Quite a few guys were in the fairway bunker on the right side that's 240 from the tee.



    And if you look at the aerial of the hole, it's an interesting green layout - it's clearly designed to take a long iron if you play it the "long" way; but the green is angled for a short iron / wedge approach if you want to be aggressive. The course is less than 10 years old, so it's not like Ernie Els was surprised at how long the guys were hitting it.
  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Advanced Members Posts: 11,368 ✭✭
    The usga is a group of morons that botched grooves and long putters and now some of you want them managing a ball roll back? Really?
    Ping G400 LST 11* Mitsu TI BB Matte 53x
    Callaway GBB 3w 14* Mitsu Blueboard 63x
    Ping G400 5w 17* Fubuki Tour 73x
    Callaway V-series Hwood Fuji TS 8.2s
    Callaway Apex 4h 23* Fujikura 904HBs
    Ping Rapture 5-PW Aldila NV MLTi Pro105x
    Ping iWedge 50* Aldila NV 105x
    Ping Zing 2 BeCu s2 54.5* & s3 57.5*
    Piretti Matera Elite (torched)
  • gvogelgvogel Advanced Members Posts: 6,997 ✭✭
    farmer wrote:

    gvogel wrote:


    By the way, when I was playing pretty good golf back in the late 70's and 80's, we took it for granted that some par 4 holes, in some conditions, were not reachable in 2 shots. Only the really long guys could get to a 420 yard par 4 playing into the wind.



    Now it seems that the current generation feels entitled to reach any par 4 in two shots because of equipment advances. Your conclusion will be different than mine.
    You were playing steel shafted wood and balata. Likely on a course that by modern agronomical standards was a goat track. You might as well compare the car you drive today to the car you drove in that era.


    I will agree that advances in technology are great for automobiles, computers, and the tech that your heart surgeon uses the next time...



    But golf is only a game. A good part of why golf is a great game is that it is darn difficult. It might be the most difficult game, because, as Sam Snead said, you have to play your foul balls. It is incontrovertible that hitting the ball from tee to green has become much easier at the elite level. If one is a true sportsman, why would one want the game to be easier? I believe it’s time to put more skill back into the long game.



    What truly great player doesn’t welcome a more difficult challenge? The better an opportunity to distinguish his ability.
    On Sundays, I used to play hickory
  • raynorfan1raynorfan1 Advanced Members Posts: 3,503 ✭✭
    gvogel wrote:

    farmer wrote:

    gvogel wrote:


    By the way, when I was playing pretty good golf back in the late 70's and 80's, we took it for granted that some par 4 holes, in some conditions, were not reachable in 2 shots. Only the really long guys could get to a 420 yard par 4 playing into the wind.



    Now it seems that the current generation feels entitled to reach any par 4 in two shots because of equipment advances. Your conclusion will be different than mine.
    You were playing steel shafted wood and balata. Likely on a course that by modern agronomical standards was a goat track. You might as well compare the car you drive today to the car you drove in that era.


    I will agree that advances in technology are great for automobiles, computers, and the tech that your heart surgeon uses the next time...



    But golf is only a game. A good part of why golf is a great game is that it is darn difficult. It might be the most difficult game, because, as Sam Snead said, you have to play your foul balls. It is incontrovertible that hitting the ball from tee to green has become much easier at the elite level. If one is a true sportsman, why would one want the game to be easier? I believe it’s time to put more skill back into the long game.



    What truly great player doesn’t welcome a more difficult challenge? The better an opportunity to distinguish his ability.




    Yet these same guys had no issue playing steel shafts instead of wood; had no issue adopting the Haskell ball; etc.
  • augustgolfaugustgolf Golf with dignity Coastal NCAdvanced Members Posts: 3,880 ✭✭
    Dave230 wrote:


    The golf ball is a factor but they have a point about driver clubheads. It is much, much easier mentally to smash the driver now and know you'll get a fairly good connection on it, in comparison to 15 years ago when swinging out of your shoes could lead to an embarrassing shot.




    Speaking for myself...I have no trouble hitting embarassing shots today, whether I swing out of my shoes or not, but I have a solution for "swinging out of your shoes"



    Play barefoot



    [sharedmedia=core:attachments:4231262]
    Pings from the beginning

    OGA member 1415
    or is it 1514...
    I don't remember exactly
  • Lancj1Lancj1 Advanced Members Posts: 880 ✭✭
    augustgolf wrote:


    This past weekend, players (on Tour) were routinely hitting driver & 9 - irons and/or wedges into 18, a par 4 - 469 yards.



    Call the "new" 9 - iron an old 7 - iron if you will, but nobody hit driver/7 - iron into 469 yard par 4's in the past. They were lucky to hit a long iron if not a fairway wood.



    I understand evolution, but that is a hard fact to deny -




    i get all that but why does it matter ? Seriously.
    G Max Driver, Tour 65 Stiff
    G400 3 & 5 Woods Alta CB Reg
    G400 2,3,4,5 Hybrids Alta CB Reg
    G410 Irons, 6-U, Green Dot, Alta CB Reg + 1/2"
    Glide Stealth 54 (SS) & 58 (WS) Green Dot, Alta CB Reg + 1/2"
    Ping Sigma 2 Valor, Stealth

    Disclaimer*

    I'm a handicap golfer in my 50's. Any opinions I have about golf equipment or professional golfers or the game in general should be taken as seriously as you would the opinions of a random guy in the fourball ahead of you who just shot 92 but is usually better than that.
  • gvogelgvogel Advanced Members Posts: 6,997 ✭✭
    raynorfan1 wrote:

    gvogel wrote:

    farmer wrote:

    gvogel wrote:


    By the way, when I was playing pretty good golf back in the late 70's and 80's, we took it for granted that some par 4 holes, in some conditions, were not reachable in 2 shots. Only the really long guys could get to a 420 yard par 4 playing into the wind.



    Now it seems that the current generation feels entitled to reach any par 4 in two shots because of equipment advances. Your conclusion will be different than mine.
    You were playing steel shafted wood and balata. Likely on a course that by modern agronomical standards was a goat track. You might as well compare the car you drive today to the car you drove in that era.


    I will agree that advances in technology are great for automobiles, computers, and the tech that your heart surgeon uses the next time...



    But golf is only a game. A good part of why golf is a great game is that it is darn difficult. It might be the most difficult game, because, as Sam Snead said, you have to play your foul balls. It is incontrovertible that hitting the ball from tee to green has become much easier at the elite level. If one is a true sportsman, why would one want the game to be easier? I believe it’s time to put more skill back into the long game.



    What truly great player doesn’t welcome a more difficult challenge? The better an opportunity to distinguish his ability.




    Yet these same guys had no issue playing steel shafts instead of wood; had no issue adopting the Haskell ball; etc.




    Of course. As a competitor you want to use equipment that makes your game easier. We all, well at least anyone who frequents this site, are looking for an edge. We are human, after all. But in so doing, we diminish the game.



    In conclusion - this is my mid term paper - we can embrace modern technology and accept the fact that modern championship courses have to be over 8,000 yards. Or we can change the ball, the driver face and the driver head size and keep the game on walkable golf courses. And, appreciate superior ball striking skill!
    On Sundays, I used to play hickory
  • ProphetLogicProphetLogic Advanced Members Posts: 502 ✭✭
    They are going to hurt a lot of people if they roll the ball back. There is no way there is going to be a separate ball for Pros and Ams, everyone will go back to the tour ball. The longest drivers were still smashing the ball 20 years ago, technology has allowed the pack to keep up, I don't really see this as a bad thing.



    This is a complete non issue for 99% of the golfing world. At the courses I play, on any given day you could probably count the players that can hit a ball over 300 on your fingers. The majority of these golfers don't hit their drivers 220. Lots of women and seniors are laying up on par 3s with their driver. I could really care less that the classic courses that I'll never set foot on can't host their majors. I do not give half a **** that Augusta has had to do some renovating to stay relevant. I care about playing golf a lot more than watching golf.



    At this point, I'd normally write something sarcastic and disparaging, but I don't want to undermine my own argument. Seriously, you're going to hurt millions of golfers catering to a couple hundred tour players.
  • nova6868nova6868 Advanced Members Posts: 4,674 ✭✭
    edited December 2017
    They make a good point about the changes in agronomy. Mowing fairways with Toro greens mowers is absolutely nuts. I know these guys want perfect lies in the fairway, but give me a break.



    VvnF27n.jpg





    I want to see some of the older courses brought back into rotation, but I don't know if its necessary to roll back the ball. I wonder if they couldn't just narrow the fairways, cut them longer, cut the rough longer, etc. I wouldn't mind seeing a pro carry a drive 270 but it only rolls out to 280, then their lie in the fairway isn't even all that great. Welcome to my world!
  • straightshot7straightshot7 Advanced Members Posts: 2,844
    Isn't it also that the modern ball doesn't spin as much and makes it a lot easier to hit it straight?



    I wouldn't mind if they made the ball a little more like the old balata so guys could work it more and inferior ball strikers would be exposed.
  • ByeBye Advanced Members Posts: 1,299
    raynorfan1 wrote:

    Bye wrote:

    raynorfan1 wrote:

    augustgolf wrote:


    This past weekend, players (on Tour) were routinely hitting driver & 9 - irons and/or wedges into 18, a par 4 - 469 yards.



    Call the "new" 9 - iron an old 7 - iron if you will, but nobody hit driver/7 - iron into 469 yard par 4's in the past. They were lucky to hit a long iron if not a fairway wood.



    I understand evolution, but that is a hard fact to deny -




    Eh. Part of this is the PGA Tour "selling" distance. 18 at Albany is 470 yards when measured from the very back of a big tee box, down the middle of the fairway, then take a left turn into the green. If you measure from where the tee actually was, give yourself a 280 yard drive down the left side, you've only got 140 to the front of the green. It doesn't seem crazy to me that a touring pro can hit a drive 280 yards, or that they hit a "modern" 9 iron 140.




    280, at most that will be a 3 wood, probably less for most of them. So on average it will be 3 wood wedge(470) to a green that was probably designed to have a long iron hit to it.




    Don't believe the hype. Average driver is 275 on the Tour. Quite a few guys were in the fairway bunker on the right side that's 240 from the tee.



    And if you look at the aerial of the hole, it's an interesting green layout - it's clearly designed to take a long iron if you play it the "long" way; but the green is angled for a short iron / wedge approach if you want to be aggressive. The course is less than 10 years old, so it's not like Ernie Els was surprised at how long the guys were hitting it.




    That's 275 carry not total distance.



    A 10 year old course deigned to host a PGA Tour event is probably going to be suitable for everyone, and if we all played on a course like that then great no problem.



    Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
    Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
    Titleist 816 H2 21 degrees - Aldila Rogue Black 85X
    Titleist 716CB 4-9 - X100
    Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
    Vokey 56S, 60M - S300
    Scotty Cameron Select Fastback
    Titleist Pro V1
  • ByeBye Advanced Members Posts: 1,299
    Lancj1 wrote:

    augustgolf wrote:


    This past weekend, players (on Tour) were routinely hitting driver & 9 - irons and/or wedges into 18, a par 4 - 469 yards.



    Call the "new" 9 - iron an old 7 - iron if you will, but nobody hit driver/7 - iron into 469 yard par 4's in the past. They were lucky to hit a long iron if not a fairway wood.



    I understand evolution, but that is a hard fact to deny -




    i get all that but why does it matter ? Seriously.




    Because it's really boring to watch!
    Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
    Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
    Titleist 816 H2 21 degrees - Aldila Rogue Black 85X
    Titleist 716CB 4-9 - X100
    Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
    Vokey 56S, 60M - S300
    Scotty Cameron Select Fastback
    Titleist Pro V1
  • GolfrnutGolfrnut Advanced Members Posts: 7,053
    nova6868 wrote:




    I want to see some of the older courses brought back into rotation, but I don't know if its necessary to roll back the ball. I wonder if they couldn't just narrow the fairways, cut them longer, cut the rough longer, etc. I wouldn't mind seeing a pro carry a drive 270 but it only rolls out to 280, then their lie in the fairway isn't even all that great. Welcome to my world!




    They do, occasionally, for tournaments like the US Open.



    Then half the field **** that the course is too hard/unfair. The PGA likes to televise 325 yard drives, and the players are a bit spoiled on the bomb/gouge courses they are used to playing tournaments on. It would be nice if they went that direction, but I think it's very low odds of it ever happening.
    TM Supertri V2 w/ AD DI (Testing a new one that's on probation)
    Callaway 3Deep w/ 73 BB or Stage 2 3W w/ 73 BB
    Stage 2 3H w/ i80 Steelfiber
    Callaway Apex UT 21* w/ i80 Steelfiber
    Callaway X Prototype MBs 4-PW w/ Steelfiber AMI 99s
    Callaway MD3 52* & 58* PM grind (both X100 8 iron SS)
    Odyssey MXM 1W
  • Sean2Sean2 #TheWRX (Callaway Trip) Members Posts: 30,826 ✭✭
    Yes, distance definitely has its advantages, but the game is about scoring, not how far one hits the ball (yes, distance can help one score, but...).



    The media, OEMs, recreational golfers seem all obsessed with distance, as opposed to scoring. How many ads have you seen that tout scoring as opposed to distance? Some 5-irons are now 21.5º. Heck, if we can't get actual distance gains, we can jack the lofts, put a different number on the sole of the club, and brag how far our product now goes...and people will flock to purchase our clubs! Every year the newest driver is longer than the previous year...given the rate new drivers come out everyone should be hitting it more than 300 yards. lol



    I remember a time when irons were viewed as scoring clubs...not so much anymore.
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway Rogue[/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway GBB Epic 16º/20º/24º[/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway Steelhead XR 25º[/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway Apex CF16 6-AW [/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway MD3/MD-PM 54º/58º[/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway "O" Works #7[/font]
  • KrazyTrain18KrazyTrain18 Advanced Members Posts: 3,124 ✭✭
    It's ultimately going to be reduced albeit nothing drastic so that we can keep playing these wide open courses that yield birdies to please the masses. My opinion is that we should leave the ball and play tougher setups that penalize poor driving rather than allow guys to still hit it to inside 15 feet with a wedge. There are plenty of good examples of shorter courses playing difficult and fair. We don't need to keep lengthening courses to provide a challenge.
    915D3 9.5 (GD-DI 6S Black Edition)
    910F 15 (Diamana Kai'li 75S)
    712U 2I (DG S300)
    714 AP2 4-W (DG S300)
    SM6 (50-54-58) (DG S200)
    Scotty Cameron Newport 2.5 (Studio Select)
  • UhitUhit Advanced Members Posts: 861
    Sean2 wrote:


    Yes, distance definitely has its advantages, but the game is about scoring, not how far one hits the ball (yes, distance can help one score, but...).



    The media, OEMs, recreational golfers seem all obsessed with distance, as opposed to scoring. How many ads have you seen that tout scoring as opposed to distance? Some 5-irons are now 21.5º. Heck, if we can't get actual distance gains, we can jack the lofts, put a different number on the sole of the club, and brag how far our product now goes...and people will flock to purchase our clubs! Every year the newest driver is longer than the previous year...given the rate new drivers come out everyone should be hitting it more than 300 yards. lol



    I remember a time when irons were viewed as scoring clubs...not so much anymore.




    The score is just a number, and a score card has no pictures...



    ...a long and accurate shot, which can be seen, looks fantastic and is fun to watch.



    I rather watch a great shot (live, or on TV), instead of reading a low number on a score card.
  • raynorfan1raynorfan1 Advanced Members Posts: 3,503 ✭✭
    gvogel wrote:


    In conclusion - this is my mid term paper - we can embrace modern technology and accept the fact that modern championship courses have to be over 8,000 yards. Or we can change the ball, the driver face and the driver head size and keep the game on walkable golf courses. And, appreciate superior ball striking skill!




    There is a third path. We can let the very elite players - the Top .0008% of golfers - play on the same 6,500 yard layouts that the rest of us do, and awe us and amaze us with their abilities. That's how most sports work. It would be a very different game than was played in the 1980s...but that was a very different game from what was played in the 1930s...and that was a very different game than was played in the 1890s.



    IMO the "problem" is rooted in the jealousy of the past greats who can't accept that today's golfers are actually just better than they ever were.
  • raynorfan1raynorfan1 Advanced Members Posts: 3,503 ✭✭
    The worst part of this discussion, IMHO, is that modern equipment has actually made classic golf course design relevant for millions of golfers who would otherwise not be good enough to play and understand those layouts. And we want to roll that back because a couple of old tour pros are offended by how far Dustin Johnson hits a 3 wood?
  • LlortamaiseyLlortamaisey Advanced Members Posts: 5,861
    If I were Titleist, I would be all for bifurcation. Titleist would essentially get rid of all the competition on tour. No one out spends them when it comes to the ball.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,218 ✭✭


    Any recreational golfer who wants to dial back the golf ball's distance need only move back a set of tees to experience the same effect. Already at the tips? Ditch the driver.



    In any case, exempt Super Seniors as I'm already depressed about my lack of distance and exempt Women, for whom Tee It Forward was always irrelevant.




    Opppsite can be said. 99% of Men who reach 60 shouldn't be long enough to still play the "men's" tee. But they are today.
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design AD DI 8X
    Ping i500 pre-production proto 3 iron Graphite Design AD DI 105X
    Ping i500 4-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged 50 54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,218 ✭✭


    Isn't it also that the modern ball doesn't spin as much and makes it a lot easier to hit it straight?



    I wouldn't mind if they made the ball a little more like the old balata so guys could work it more and inferior ball strikers would be exposed.




    This is my gripe. Not total distance. It's that it's so easy to hit the high straight ball.
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design AD DI 8X
    Ping i500 pre-production proto 3 iron Graphite Design AD DI 105X
    Ping i500 4-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged 50 54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • youraway2youraway2 Just Old Sticks Advanced Members Posts: 1,402


    Did you read the study? There has been no increase over the past decade.



    Clubhead size correlates almost exactly with driving distance. As does length of fairway grass.



    So it would be just as easy to change fairway grass height and every course could choose to do it at little or no cost.
    Our course no longer uses triplex mowers in the fairways, they use pull behind gang mowers, which cannot cut to .187 or 3/16 of an inch. We have slow fairways and very short drives.
    [font=comic sans ms,cursive]Ping G-400 Max, 10.5, Xtorsion[/font]
    PXG, 15-degree, ACCRA
    PXG, 19-degree hybrid, ACCRA
    Cobra DWS Utility 19-degree
    CF-16, 4-PW, UST Recoil
    0311 PXG, 5-AW, i70 Areotech Steel-fiber
    SW, 56 PXG
    Ping Nickel Anser II
«13456712
Sign In or Register to comment.