If "The difference between a Tour pro and a scratch is 15 strokes" then....

ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,663 ClubWRX
Hello ladies and gents!



I see this statement quite frequently: "I've heard the difference between a tour pro and a scratch amateur golfer is, like, 15 shots." Well if that's true, what is the difference between a scratch 45 - 60 year old golfer and a solid Champions Tour player like Goydos or Colin Montgomerie?



Asking for a friend.... ;-)
PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
«1345

Comments

  • WidespreadPanicWidespreadPanic Wizard in the Corner Members Posts: 4,815 ✭✭
    Well, if the HC system means anything, it should be the difference in that. BUT, since a pro really has a good chance of scoring to their ability, and the amateur does it just every so often, I’m going to say about 10.4 strokes.
    Taylormade M2 ('17) 10.5*
    Cobra F7 15.5*
    Taylormade M1 ('17) 19*
    Mizuno MP18 Fli Hi 4i
    Mizuno MP18 SC 5-PW
    Cleveland RTX 588 2.0 52**, 56**, 60**
    Taylormade TP Red Ardmore 3
    Taylormade TPx
  • CaddykevCaddykev Posts: 430 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:


    Hello ladies and gents!



    I see this statement quite frequently: "I've heard the difference between a tour pro and a scratch amateur golfer is, like, 15 shots." Well if that's true, what is the difference between a scratch 45 - 60 year old golfer and a solid Champions Tour player like Goydos or Colin Montgomerie?



    Asking for a friend.... ;-)


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/paul-goydos-not-only-carries-handicap-he-posts-scores-quickly-including-fridays-62-and-pro-am-scores/amp



    I def wouldn’t want to play him at rec Park, skylinks, or el dorado haha.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,663 ClubWRX
    Caddykev wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    Hello ladies and gents!



    I see this statement quite frequently: "I've heard the difference between a tour pro and a scratch amateur golfer is, like, 15 shots." Well if that's true, what is the difference between a scratch 45 - 60 year old golfer and a solid Champions Tour player like Goydos or Colin Montgomerie?



    Asking for a friend.... ;-)


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/paul-goydos-not-only-carries-handicap-he-posts-scores-quickly-including-fridays-62-and-pro-am-scores/amp



    I def wouldn’t want to play him at rec Park, skylinks, or el dorado haha.




    Yeah, he's at Dove Canyon. Plays there with scratch ams all the time.
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • LokiLoki Members Posts: 1,109 ✭✭
    I thought it was something like "it's easier for a 15 hcp to get to scratch than a scratch to be a pro."



    Or something like that.
  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Columbus, OHMembers Posts: 7,149 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:


    Hello ladies and gents!



    I see this statement quite frequently: "I've heard the difference between a tour pro and a scratch amateur golfer is, like, 15 shots." Well if that's true, what is the difference between a scratch 45 - 60 year old golfer and a solid Champions Tour player like Goydos or Colin Montgomerie?



    Asking for a friend.... ;-)




    It’s certainly not 15 strokes different between scratch and tour pro.



    If a player plays a variety of different and difficult courses and uses all rules all the time (no 3 foot gimmees), then a true scratch player and a tour pro should only be about as different as the difference in their indexes, plus a couple strokes.



    Most tour pros are about +5-to +6, but they are +6 on a variety of very challenging courses from the tips. That’s why I say index plus a couple strokes.



    The same should go for champions players. Index plus a couple strokes.
    9.5* Cobra LTD, Old school Grafalloy Blue, 43.5"
    14* Cally 815 alpha fuji 665 X 42"
    16* Cally 815 alpha fuji 665 X, 41.5" (set to 17*)
    19* Titleist 816 H2 fuji 8.8X TS 40.0"
    4-7 2016 Hogan PTx, KBS Tour V, 120X.  
    Ping i210 8 & 9 Proto 125 F5 hardstepped 1x.
    Ping glide 2 46-12, 50-12, 54-14 (at 55) stealth, Vokey SM6 60M (61). Wedges Recoil Proto 125 F5
    33.5" Ghost spider slant neck.
    Srixon Z-star XV
    Jones Trouper Bag
  • golfandfishinggolfandfishing Members Posts: 3,387 ✭✭
    We talking Monty playing a casual round money game with ams or a scratch am trying to play in a tour event? In a tour event I’ll let the scratch am have 12, Monty post 68 and see if scratchy scratch can break 80 at, say.... PGA West in the Bob Hope.



    In a money game at a club - scratchy scratch better be at 75ish depending on the rating/slope. Monty’s game doesn’t change much and he’s around 68 still, so I’d allow the scratch 3 a side.



    I know why you are asking, and I hope you have a blast playing with Monty. He’s a great guy by all accounts, I know a few people who have played with him and his reputation in the US is not indicative of who he is in person. I also thought you were a few better than scratch? Don’t go sandbagging the scot. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />.
  • grantc79grantc79 Members Posts: 422 ✭✭
    I play with two friends all the time one is on the Web and has had success there and in PGA events. The other is a scratch or +1. The scratch generally gets 3 strokes a side and its pretty even. Heck I'm a 5.3 and I'm only getting 6 per side.



    If I go out and shoot 78 the pro has to go 66 to tie me that's not exactly a given.
    KZG 420 Driver
    Bridgestone Airmuscle 3 iron
    Edel Single Length 5-LW
  • ShilgyShilgy Members Posts: 11,297 ✭✭
    grantc79 wrote:


    I play with two friends all the time one is on the Web and has had success there and in PGA events. The other is a scratch or +1. The scratch generally gets 3 strokes a side and its pretty even. Heck I'm a 5.3 and I'm only getting 6 per side.



    If I go out and shoot 78 the pro has to go 66 to tie me that's not exactly a given.
    No, it's not a given for the pro to shoot 66, but then you should only shoot 78 a quarter of the time. And that's on a course with rating the same as par. A more difficult course it would be less often.
    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • ShilgyShilgy Members Posts: 11,297 ✭✭
    Caddykev wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    Hello ladies and gents!



    I see this statement quite frequently: "I've heard the difference between a tour pro and a scratch amateur golfer is, like, 15 shots." Well if that's true, what is the difference between a scratch 45 - 60 year old golfer and a solid Champions Tour player like Goydos or Colin Montgomerie?



    Asking for a friend.... ;-)


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/paul-goydos-not-only-carries-handicap-he-posts-scores-quickly-including-fridays-62-and-pro-am-scores/amp



    I def wouldn’t want to play him at rec Park, skylinks, or el dorado haha.
    Sandbagging sob. Doesn't even post as T scores lol. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • grantc79grantc79 Members Posts: 422 ✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:

    grantc79 wrote:


    I play with two friends all the time one is on the Web and has had success there and in PGA events. The other is a scratch or +1. The scratch generally gets 3 strokes a side and its pretty even. Heck I'm a 5.3 and I'm only getting 6 per side.



    If I go out and shoot 78 the pro has to go 66 to tie me that's not exactly a given.
    No, it's not a given for the pro to shoot 66, but then you should only shoot 78 a quarter of the time. And that's on a course with rating the same as par. A more difficult course it would be less often.




    I hear you, I'm just saying from a NUMERICAL standpoint there isn't that many digits between +6 and scratch.



    From an ability standpoint its probably about another 10,000 hours of practice lol.
    KZG 420 Driver
    Bridgestone Airmuscle 3 iron
    Edel Single Length 5-LW
  • pappaf2pappaf2 Members Posts: 3,467 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:


    Hello ladies and gents!



    I see this statement quite frequently: "I've heard the difference between a tour pro and a scratch amateur golfer is, like, 15 shots." Well if that's true, what is the difference between a scratch 45 - 60 year old golfer and a solid Champions Tour player like Goydos or Colin Montgomerie?



    Asking for a friend.... ;-)




    So when are you going to tell us the story?
  • ShilgyShilgy Members Posts: 11,297 ✭✭
    grantc79 wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    grantc79 wrote:


    I play with two friends all the time one is on the Web and has had success there and in PGA events. The other is a scratch or +1. The scratch generally gets 3 strokes a side and its pretty even. Heck I'm a 5.3 and I'm only getting 6 per side.



    If I go out and shoot 78 the pro has to go 66 to tie me that's not exactly a given.
    No, it's not a given for the pro to shoot 66, but then you should only shoot 78 a quarter of the time. And that's on a course with rating the same as par. A more difficult course it would be less often.




    I hear you, I'm just saying from a NUMERICAL standpoint there isn't that many digits between +6 and scratch.



    From an ability standpoint its probably about another 10,000 hours of practice lol.
    I thought we were referring to the +6 to the 6(you).



    12 is huge.





    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,613 ClubWRX
    Obee is such a tease! Throws the lure out there and gets you hooked. Then you can’t wait for the full story!



    Count me as one who has taken the bait. I’ll be looking forward to more!
    Titleist 910 8.5
    Titleist 910 15*
    Titleist 910H 17*
    2-6 Mizuno MP-60, 7-PW MP-67
    SC GoLo
    Vokey SM5 52,58,62
  • scooterboy59scooterboy59 Posts: 977 ✭✭
    3 to 5 shots per round for a good Champions player. 12 to 15 shots over the couse of three rounds.
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,166 ✭✭
    Yeah I'd guess on average maybe 5 shots, because I assume champions tour players are around +5 indexes.
    Ping G400 Max 9 w/ Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Epic Subzero 14* w//Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20 w/Diamana D+ 95
    Callaway 2016 Apex Pro 4-PW w/S300
    Callaway MD Forged 52,56,60 w/S300
    Odyssey O-works #7 Red Tank
  • mosesgolfmosesgolf Members Posts: 6,833 ✭✭
    Scratch players will almost never play to their index when paired against someone who plays as if their from another planet. I played with two former PGA Tour players. They are highly underrated as to how good they are vs your average Joe scratch player who thinks they have some level of tour talent. image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

    I used to be WRX long and they both out drove me easily 10-15 yards and they weren't even swinging that hard. And then there is their wedge and putter well that's just not fair. image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />
    Taylormade M1 9.5 661 Tour Spec Stiff
    Taylormade M1 3 Wood 15 Kuro Kage Stiff
    Taylormade RBZ 18 Altus Stiff
    Adams Peanut 24* Altus Stiff
    Taylormade PSI Tour DGS300 Stiff 5-PW
    Taylormade Tour Preferred 52 56 60
    Taylormade SI Spider 72 38
  • dmac4gdmac4g Members Posts: 1,244 ✭✭
    I am going all in with Obee wins, straight up, no shots...............
  • The GeneralThe General Members Posts: 1,712 ✭✭
    edited Oct 8, 2018 #19

    Obee wrote:


    Hello ladies and gents!



    I see this statement quite frequently: "I've heard the difference between a tour pro and a scratch amateur golfer is, like, 15 shots." Well if that's true, what is the difference between a scratch 45 - 60 year old golfer and a solid Champions Tour player like Goydos or Colin Montgomerie?



    Asking for a friend.... ;-)




    It’s certainly not 15 strokes different between scratch and tour pro.



    If a player plays a variety of different and difficult courses and uses all rules all the time (no 3 foot gimmees), then a true scratch player and a tour pro should only be about as different as the difference in their indexes, plus a couple strokes.



    Most tour pros are about +5-to +6, but they are +6 on a variety of very challenging courses from the tips. That’s why I say index plus a couple strokes.



    The same should go for champions players. Index plus a couple strokes.




    yeah totally agree with this. All scratch are not created equal. If you are scratch and play the same course every weekend and another scratch plays the tips from courses all over, that's a huge difference.



    IMO, the big diff between scratch and a tour player is the mental game. The players brain is everything and the tour player is a cerebral assassin! (also, they never miss the sweet spot!!!!)
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,613 ClubWRX
    mosesgolf wrote:


    Scratch players will almost never play to their index when paired against someone who plays as if their from another planet. I played with two former PGA Tour players. They are highly underrated as to how good they are vs your average Joe scratch player who thinks they have some level of tour talent. image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

    I used to be WRX long and they both out drove me easily 10-15 yards and they weren't even swinging that hard. And then there is their wedge and putter well that's just not fair. image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />




    A lot of people play better when playing with substantialy better players.
    Titleist 910 8.5
    Titleist 910 15*
    Titleist 910H 17*
    2-6 Mizuno MP-60, 7-PW MP-67
    SC GoLo
    Vokey SM5 52,58,62
  • FrostfieldFrostfield Posts: 894 ✭✭
    Tour pros are probably closer to 8 shots better than the scratch on average.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,663 ClubWRX
    edited Oct 8, 2018 #22
    Didn't play with Monty, unfortunately. Have played a bunch with Goydos and Pernice over the years.



    Friday we played at Victoria Club in Riverside. It's a 1923 Max Behr (re)design. Very quirky and fun. Greens receptive, but lots of break. Course has five par-5's and five par-3's. 6500 yards, 71.3, 129. Pernice had not played it before, most of us had played it anywhere from a bunch of times to a few times.



    We played there because our home course had a ladies event. It was also a practice round for a several of us (not Pernice) because we had a tournament at Victoria on the weekend. Pernice had lots of bets (as usual) and grinded like he always does. Guy is just a pro.



    Scores were:



    Pernice: 69

    +2 Am: 69

    +1 Am: 70

    4 Am: 72

    Pro: 72

    2 Am: 72

    0 Am: 73

    0 Am: 73

    1 Am: 74

    Obee: 74

    2 Am: 75

    +3 Am: 77

    0 Am: 78



    I had an off day on Friday and did not play well at all. Followed that up with back to back 70's on Saturday and Sunday in the tournament and my partner fired 72, 68 good for better-ball 64, 64 which had us finish at 2nd place, one back of the winners. Always enjoy playing Victoria Club.



    Make of that what you will, but that's quite standard when we play with the top Champions Tour guys. Sometimes one or two of us will beat them, but usually they are within the top couple scores all the time. The easier the course (and Victoria is only 6517, 71.3/129), the more bunched the scores are and the better chance a scratch or below am has of beating a pro. The tougher the course, the more it will test ALL of one's game, and that's where the pros really separate themselves from good ams.



    During the tournament, we played the course a bit shorter and there was a 7-under 65 by a 0. I would expect Pernice's "live-in" range to be 64 to 68 there. Mine is 69 to 74.



    Make of that what you will. I just think it's valuable to give real-world examples of pros playing with ams -- especially a pro like Pernice who never "messes around" when he's playing golf. Goydos is the same way. Both guys are just consummate professionals.



    Feel free to ask questions. I love talking about these rounds. By the way, Pernice is now almost 60 years old and you would NEVER know it. Guy is in fantastic shape and is still top-20(ish) in the world on the Champions Tour. Amazing how long these guys have been able to extend their careers.
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,663 ClubWRX
    edited Oct 8, 2018 #23
    Frostfield wrote:


    Tour pros are probably closer to 8 shots better than the scratch on average.




    Yeah, with the young guys.



    Pernice would never take a bet giving a guy like me 8 strokes on a course like Victoria. Not a chance in ****. And I'm only scratch nowadays.



    We play him as a +4 (which matches up with Goydos' index in one of the posts above) in our bets and he probably gets the best of us a bit due to his consistency.
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • jt2gtjt2gt Posts: 543 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:


    The easier the course (and Victoria is only 6517, 71.3/129), the more bunched the scores are and the better chance a scratch or below am has of beating a pro. The tougher the course, the more it will test ALL of one's game, and that's where the pros really separate themselves from good ams.






    This quote sums up most of the discussions I have seen on WRX regardin pros vs. ams...even the LPGA pro vs scratch male. It really is the mental aspect that separates...Ive seen pros get out of mentally challenging situations without issue and even birdies where a good am would be bogie or worse (example -- saw Toms par from the rocks in a creek at Firestone and even had a putt for birdie).
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,007 ✭✭
    probably around 7-9 shots...But if you get Monty on a course with alot of dogleg lefts and talk them into left pin placements , maybe only 4...lol
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged   54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,663 ClubWRX
    jt2gt wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    The easier the course (and Victoria is only 6517, 71.3/129), the more bunched the scores are and the better chance a scratch or below am has of beating a pro. The tougher the course, the more it will test ALL of one's game, and that's where the pros really separate themselves from good ams.






    This quote sums up most of the discussions I have seen on WRX regardin pros vs. ams...even the LPGA pro vs scratch male. It really is the mental aspect that separates...Ive seen pros get out of mentally challenging situations without issue and even birdies where a good am would be bogie or worse (example -- saw Toms par from the rocks in a creek at Firestone and even had a putt for birdie).




    It's actually a LOT more than just the mental. Their ball-striking is simply significantly superior on a day-in-day-out basis. There are solid scratch players who do one or two things as well or close to as well as a Champions Tour pro (putting, driving, short game, mental game), but none of them has the complete game that the pros have. And none of them have the consistency of strike that the pros have, or they'd be playing professionally and making a living. :-)
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • jt2gtjt2gt Posts: 543 ✭✭
    edited Oct 8, 2018 #27
    Obee wrote:

    jt2gt wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    The easier the course (and Victoria is only 6517, 71.3/129), the more bunched the scores are and the better chance a scratch or below am has of beating a pro. The tougher the course, the more it will test ALL of one's game, and that's where the pros really separate themselves from good ams.






    This quote sums up most of the discussions I have seen on WRX regardin pros vs. ams...even the LPGA pro vs scratch male. It really is the mental aspect that separates...Ive seen pros get out of mentally challenging situations without issue and even birdies where a good am would be bogie or worse (example -- saw Toms par from the rocks in a creek at Firestone and even had a putt for birdie).




    It's actually a LOT more than just the mental. Their ball-striking is simply significantly superior on a day-in-day-out basis. There are solid scratch players who do one or two things as well or close to as well as a Champions Tour pro (putting, driving, short game, mental game), but none of them has the complete game that the pros have. And none of them have the consistency of strike that the pros have, or they'd be playing professionally and making a living. :-)




    You're right...but I think one leads to the other and vice versa. What gives them that mental confidence -- knowing their strike is so good, they can hit the shot off the rocks (or under the tree, around the bush, etc.) Its really a different thought process for most ams.
  • rangersgoalierangersgoalie Posts: 1,744 ✭✭
    MtlJeff wrote:


    Yeah I'd guess on average maybe 5 shots, because I assume champions tour players are around +5 indexes.




    There’s probably a pretty big spread top to bottom in Champions Tour index
  • ShutSteepStuckShutSteepStuck Grinding like Briny Baird The ValleyMembers Posts: 1,494 ✭✭
    We need you to wax eloquently about [background=rgb(250, 210, 207)]Pernice's[/background] [background=rgb(250, 210, 207)]short game[/background].



    Let's hear some stories...



    Obviously the guy has tons of mental grit, but how much of his ability to grind well is due to that phenomenal short game?



    I would think that having a short game like his is roughly equivalent to having an ace up your sleeve. IOW, when clanking it a little bit I don't imagine he gets to worked up knowing he can scramble and STILL score.
    g400max 9*- rogue 125 60tx
    m2 tour 15.8* - ad gp-8x
    m2 tour 19.8* - diamana s 83x
    4-gw ap1 712 - s300's
    mp-t10 56.10 - s300
    tvd 60m - ti s400
    piretti potenza ii 365g 34"
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,166 ✭✭

    MtlJeff wrote:


    Yeah I'd guess on average maybe 5 shots, because I assume champions tour players are around +5 indexes.




    There’s probably a pretty big spread top to bottom in Champions Tour index




    I suppose that's likely true!
    Ping G400 Max 9 w/ Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Epic Subzero 14* w//Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20 w/Diamana D+ 95
    Callaway 2016 Apex Pro 4-PW w/S300
    Callaway MD Forged 52,56,60 w/S300
    Odyssey O-works #7 Red Tank
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,166 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    jt2gt wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    The easier the course (and Victoria is only 6517, 71.3/129), the more bunched the scores are and the better chance a scratch or below am has of beating a pro. The tougher the course, the more it will test ALL of one's game, and that's where the pros really separate themselves from good ams.






    This quote sums up most of the discussions I have seen on WRX regardin pros vs. ams...even the LPGA pro vs scratch male. It really is the mental aspect that separates...Ive seen pros get out of mentally challenging situations without issue and even birdies where a good am would be bogie or worse (example -- saw Toms par from the rocks in a creek at Firestone and even had a putt for birdie).




    It's actually a LOT more than just the mental. Their ball-striking is simply significantly superior on a day-in-day-out basis. There are solid scratch players who do one or two things as well or close to as well as a Champions Tour pro (putting, driving, short game, mental game), but none of them has the complete game that the pros have. And none of them have the consistency of strike that the pros have, or they'd be playing professionally and making a living. :-)




    But aren't scores , scores at the end of the day?



    We know pros are better in terms of actual game (not just mental) but they are only better by a measurable amount. Their ability to turn trouble into birdies and lack of significant flaws still has a numeric value. Their confidence and escape shots can't have them making 0's on holes.



    So they're better than scratch players for all those reasons....but a champions tour player is better by what? 5 shots?



    I mean these are things we CAN quantify is my point
    Ping G400 Max 9 w/ Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Epic Subzero 14* w//Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20 w/Diamana D+ 95
    Callaway 2016 Apex Pro 4-PW w/S300
    Callaway MD Forged 52,56,60 w/S300
    Odyssey O-works #7 Red Tank
«1345
Sign In or Register to comment.