My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

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Comments

  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Nard_S said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Nard_S said:
    Regarding feel?
    Forged CB's pale to traditional MB. If I'm going CB I'll stick with cast. Someone once commented that forged CB is the worst of both. I agree.
    Saying you cannot tell the difference between cast or forged Endo or Mizuno or Miura or Hoffman is like saying all coffee tastes the same.

    Agree wholeheartedly with you 1st paragraph... maybe not so much with your 2nd...lol! 😁

    Honestly do not put much stock in feel, but to say a Ping feels like a Mizuno, feels like a Miura, feels like an Endo is willed ignorance. Forging houses have their flavor and OEM brands seek an identifying feel in their gear. You ho enough clubs it's plain as day. :)

    Well, I don't know about "willed ignorance" but I'll stick with my "feel" (of a dead solid strike of course) as being a combination of sound & touch, the sound part being what sounds right to ME and the touch part actually being a lack of feeling anything; as in not feeling any harsh vibration, or any vibration of the shaft at all, and not feeling any twisting of the club head.

    Almost like "What ? Something got in the way of my club head ? Who knew ?"

    Callaway Epic 10.5 Project X Hzrdus Yellow 63 gr, 6.0
    Adams A12 Pro hybrids, 16*, Aldila VS Proto Stiff
    Ping G400 19* hybrid Stiff 70 Stock shaft

    Ping G20, 5-PW, DGS300
    Ping Glide Forged 48*, 52* 56*, 60* DGS300
    Taylormade Tour Spider Black (Today - always subject to change LOL)
    Titleist AVX
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Nard_S said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Nard_S said:
    Regarding feel?
    Forged CB's pale to traditional MB. If I'm going CB I'll stick with cast. Someone once commented that forged CB is the worst of both. I agree.
    Saying you cannot tell the difference between cast or forged Endo or Mizuno or Miura or Hoffman is like saying all coffee tastes the same.

    Agree wholeheartedly with you 1st paragraph... maybe not so much with your 2nd...lol! 😁

    Honestly do not put much stock in feel, but to say a Ping feels like a Mizuno, feels like a Miura, feels like an Endo is willed ignorance. Forging houses have their flavor and OEM brands seek an identifying feel in their gear. You ho enough clubs it's plain as day. :)

    Ok, you sold me! Seriously, I agree that they all have their own unique feel.

    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Nard_S said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Nard_S said:
    Regarding feel?
    Forged CB's pale to traditional MB. If I'm going CB I'll stick with cast. Someone once commented that forged CB is the worst of both. I agree.
    Saying you cannot tell the difference between cast or forged Endo or Mizuno or Miura or Hoffman is like saying all coffee tastes the same.

    Agree wholeheartedly with you 1st paragraph... maybe not so much with your 2nd...lol! 😁

    Honestly do not put much stock in feel, but to say a Ping feels like a Mizuno, feels like a Miura, feels like an Endo is willed ignorance. Forging houses have their flavor and OEM brands seek an identifying feel in their gear. You ho enough clubs it's plain as day. :)

    Ok, you sold me! Seriously, I agree that they all have their own unique feel.

    Mind that it's not all that Earth shattering different Just flavor. Sound and feel are the exact same thing just a different medium to to perceive it. Mizuno never comes across as Miura in part because the resonant frequency (all things have one) is differing due to shape and density of material. I was a musician. Types of wood in drums makes a huge difference, again different resonant frequency For golf clubs? Not so much but it's there.

  • BigmeanBigmean Everything is Relative Members Posts: 4,970 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Apr 19, 2019 8:54am #935

    Amazing how 3 years ago this would have been shut down 10 times over but I guess with the "improvements" anything generating hits is ok.....I never understood why these threads were shut down, but I think I really get now, this is just as naseum what I believe as my truth is right and must be your truth and anything different is inconceivable because of science/feel/turf interaction/handicap/stats etc.

    For most of my life I had a set of both, it was mp14s and dci 962s. I loved both, I just knew which ones to grab based on they day and how I felt and was playing and really if nothing else one set was in time out and the other was the hot hand until not in which case I would readily go to the bullpen . I am still struggling to this day to find a set of each I can marry like that again, but I will.

    What are the facts to me in my years of research on the matter?

    • Mental game > equipment. If you have confidence in something, it is more likely to perform for you.

    • Scoring is irrelevant, but I am positive that as a lifelong lower 80s high 70s golfer I have a fair amount more rounds in 70s with a blade iron. I also have more rounds with them in general. I also shot my lowest round of 71 with a CB. I also sold that set as shortly after I had 2 horrific rounds of bad irons. I regretted that, but back to point 1, the answer is always Indian, and his perception. I don't overthink any of this when I have 2 real gamer sets, I just like the idea of 2 bad rounds in a row means you take the other set out the next time, and that may be that positive spark to stop the slide. Driver has far more effect on my scores than probably if I had to putt with the leading edge blade of my wedge, let alone whatever of my 2 comfortable iron sets I have that day......

    • -I think there is something to distance control and blades. I think it is easier to feel out 3/4 swing type things and I really feel like dispersion distance wise is more consistent for a worse golfer like me who isn't hitting balls constantly. I also think this is my experience and while many feel similar it isn't something I think of as more than a flimsy personal observation that clearly is a non issue for better players.

    -Everyone talks about these misses and good players miss small and no on hits the sweet spot and that is just so foreign to me. I mean I get it at a pro level, but I am more likely to miss fat and thin than outside the area that makes the ball go x yards. I can misgit the ball on the sweet spot all day long and shoot 85, done it plenty in my life. Doesn't really matter what design head I use to pure a double cross now does it? Or not get around and push one and leave it out, or tug one left....in fact my most score punishing iron misses I would bet flew right off the sweet spot, or of course are heavy or thin. So that in mind, and I have done the research, iron head design is out the window.

    -long irons are no joke. Honestly I have never felt comfortable to hit a green until inside 190. blade or CB, standing over a 4 iron from 215 sucks at my skill set. I am a late adaptor but finally found a hybrid I like a lot, and for all this blade/CB talk, I think that there is more to gain in being more open minded to a 5-pw set. I still carry a 4, but my current CB set is 5-pw and last season my 4 iron was predominantly for advancing crap drives under trees. So I end on this, for the CB guys, there is little reason to carry a 3,4,5 iron with today's tech in hybrids correct? No one carries a 3 anymore, why draw the line there? Mis hits fly better and further, moi is no contest, they elevate so much easier and better. I am being serious? Substitute CB for hybrid and blade for 4 and 5 iron in this thread and it mostly holds water.

    That's all I got. No one on the internet can tell me anything to contradict 25 years of playing golf, and I don't care to or intend to sway anyone. I just figured I would post for the random new golfer. The real answer to the debate about iron heads is truly really boring.

    Ryoma Maxima 9.5*/Quadra Fire Express
    913F 15*/Tour AD MT7
    Roddio 21* hybrid/Tour AD DI75
    Miura 1957 small blades/Nippon 1150 tours
    Wilson Staff V4 tour modus 130
    Mizuno MP-14/DG300-raw finish
    Buchi 50/56. RomaRo 59
    Gold's Factory custom original flat-stick amongst a couple dozen others.
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @BMC said:

    @MelloYello said:
    @dpb5031
    In places where we have circumstantial evidence we have to accept a narrative. I don't believe your narrative that it's all marketing. There are logical wrinkles there which I pointed out. It's not the interest of OEMs to do it the hard way if casting would be just as good. At the end of the day, clubs aren't sold based on the fact they have "1025" carbon steel. Very few people know that. A person will simply say "X feels better than Y." I have no reason to believe cast blade irons would somehow be impossible to sell because people are obsessed with the details of forging. I don't buy that. Advertising does not control as you're describing. It's a cop out argument IMHO.

    Also, you keep saying "most of the mass behind the sweet spot" when obviously that isn't true. A blade doesn't clump the mass behind the sweet spot at all. The muscle extends rather uniformly from heel to toe, not to mention the thickness of the club varies from the sole to the top-line going from thicker at the bottom to thinner at the top with a slight drop-off near the middle where the top of the muscle ends.

    So I don't quite see why you're so obsessed with this notion that placing mass close to the CG results in better feel. What exactly is your reasoning for saying that? If you're saying there is wide-spread anecdotal evidence based on what people say, well, you can't criticize that line of reasoning in the case of forged vs cast, can you?

    Again, we're not metallurgists so to speak as though all forgings are the same or all castings are the same is probably not safe. I just know that when two companies make clubs which are really close to being the same in geometry (i.e. Mizuno blades versus Titleist blades) and yet people seem to prefer the form in feel, there might be something to the material argument.

    I prefer not to have uneducated debates. I'm fine leaving it there. A certain percentage of cast clubs may rival the feel or forged. I just don't have the answer to whether that's true, let alone exactly why.

    These are my 1990 VIPs. They're cast and have a substantial muscle behind the sweet spot. I've owned many true blades, and the cast blades feel as good as any of the forged ones I've played.

    Ha, I remember the VIP blades! Your experience illustrates my point. Mass inline with the sweetspot is the primary contributor to that coveted MB blade solidness on a pure strike, not whether the club was manufactured by forging or casting.

    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I always felt my Eye 2's were pretty good feeling. There's perks in MB forging feel wise but it's never been high on the list of why I play them. The pure shot where you don't feel a thing is also a shot where you pured the shaft. Easier done with R300 than X100 for sure. Jack said he might have pured 5-6 shots a round so this notion that 'unless you pure them all stay away from blades' is highly off base.

    Get your swing speed optimized and swing path stable, cluster your impact. You don't need blades for any of it,. You like them or want them, fine. It's not the worst gear malpractice. For every guy with the wrong iron head there's 100 with the wrong shaft. and a thousand with a systemic swing faults that will condemn them to dufferdom. Stats are if you started golf in adulthood, you have a 1 in 1000 chance of being low index (sub 5). Best that most get to is 7-10, then give up because swing faults hold them back. Been quite lucky to play with a slew of scratch players in past couple years. The gear is all over the spectrum in tech and age. It's not the common denominator of their goodness.

    I have an $800 driver, thing is hi-tech through and through, love it but have struggled with it, seriously was going to drop another bucket of bucks and make a change. Blaming shaft etc etc. Took buckets of balls but the thing is staying because like BM mentioned, it's the Indian not the arrow.

    If you're truly interested in what tech does and does not do, Google "Nick Faldo, Mizuno iron review." Best 20 minutes you can spend to get a primer and hard data on this stuff. You get spin, launch, distance and dispersion on most all types of clubs. Plus you get Nick's wry commentary which cuts through some of the jargon.

  • cliffhangercliffhanger spruce grove albertaClubWRX Posts: 1,760 ClubWRX

    @nsxguy said:

    @Nard_S said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Nard_S said:
    Regarding feel?
    Forged CB's pale to traditional MB. If I'm going CB I'll stick with cast. Someone once commented that forged CB is the worst of both. I agree.
    Saying you cannot tell the difference between cast or forged Endo or Mizuno or Miura or Hoffman is like saying all coffee tastes the same.

    Agree wholeheartedly with you 1st paragraph... maybe not so much with your 2nd...lol! 😁

    Honestly do not put much stock in feel, but to say a Ping feels like a Mizuno, feels like a Miura, feels like an Endo is willed ignorance. Forging houses have their flavor and OEM brands seek an identifying feel in their gear. You ho enough clubs it's plain as day. :)

    Well, I don't know about "willed ignorance" but I'll stick with my "feel" (of a dead solid strike of course) as being a combination of sound & touch, the sound part being what sounds right to ME and the touch part actually being a lack of feeling anything; as in not feeling any harsh vibration, or any vibration of the shaft at all, and not feeling any twisting of the club head.

    Almost like "What ? Something got in the way of my club head ? Who knew ?"

    if someone is unable to find the sweet spot consistently on a blade, i doubt they can do it on a GI club either. There is no magic formula in a game improvement iron that helps you to hit a "dead solid strike". Your motor skills do not change from one club to another... you can either hit it in the middle or you can't. The GI clubs are designed in such a way that allows any player to feel like they nutted it even if they really didn't or couldn't LOL, OMG, LMAO.


    Driver: TM M6 (10.5 deg) with Project X Smoke 60X playing at 45 inches
    3Wood: TM M6 (14 deg) with Project X Smoke 70X playing at 43 inches
    2 iron: TM 790 UDI bent to 19 degrees with Project X HZRDUS 85 X (6.5) at 39.5 inches
    4-GW: TM P760 with KBS Tour X (all bent 2 deg flat) standard length
    Wedges: TM Hi-Toe 56/10 and 60/10 (all bent 2 deg flat) with 2.0 hi-rev shafts both standard lengths
    TM Mullen 2 TP putter @ 34 inches 
    TM TP 5 ball 

     All grips 360 tour velvet burgundy with 1 extra wrap

    Sun mountain 4.5 stand bag

  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @cliffhanger said:

    @nsxguy said:

    @Nard_S said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Nard_S said:
    Regarding feel?
    Forged CB's pale to traditional MB. If I'm going CB I'll stick with cast. Someone once commented that forged CB is the worst of both. I agree.
    Saying you cannot tell the difference between cast or forged Endo or Mizuno or Miura or Hoffman is like saying all coffee tastes the same.

    Agree wholeheartedly with you 1st paragraph... maybe not so much with your 2nd...lol! 😁

    Honestly do not put much stock in feel, but to say a Ping feels like a Mizuno, feels like a Miura, feels like an Endo is willed ignorance. Forging houses have their flavor and OEM brands seek an identifying feel in their gear. You ho enough clubs it's plain as day. :)

    Well, I don't know about "willed ignorance" but I'll stick with my "feel" (of a dead solid strike of course) as being a combination of sound & touch, the sound part being what sounds right to ME and the touch part actually being a lack of feeling anything; as in not feeling any harsh vibration, or any vibration of the shaft at all, and not feeling any twisting of the club head.

    Almost like "What ? Something got in the way of my club head ? Who knew ?"

    if someone is unable to find the sweet spot consistently on a blade, i doubt they can do it on a GI club either. There is no magic formula in a game improvement iron that helps you to hit a "dead solid strike". Your motor skills do not change from one club to another... you can either hit it in the middle or you can't. The GI clubs are designed in such a way that allows any player to feel like they nutted it even if they really didn't or couldn't LOL, OMG, LMAO.

    Lol. And there’s another blatant lie. You can tell whether you hit any club solid or not.

  • cliffhangercliffhanger spruce grove albertaClubWRX Posts: 1,760 ClubWRX

    @BiggErn said:

    @cliffhanger said:

    @nsxguy said:

    @Nard_S said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Nard_S said:
    Regarding feel?
    Forged CB's pale to traditional MB. If I'm going CB I'll stick with cast. Someone once commented that forged CB is the worst of both. I agree.
    Saying you cannot tell the difference between cast or forged Endo or Mizuno or Miura or Hoffman is like saying all coffee tastes the same.

    Agree wholeheartedly with you 1st paragraph... maybe not so much with your 2nd...lol! 😁

    Honestly do not put much stock in feel, but to say a Ping feels like a Mizuno, feels like a Miura, feels like an Endo is willed ignorance. Forging houses have their flavor and OEM brands seek an identifying feel in their gear. You ho enough clubs it's plain as day. :)

    Well, I don't know about "willed ignorance" but I'll stick with my "feel" (of a dead solid strike of course) as being a combination of sound & touch, the sound part being what sounds right to ME and the touch part actually being a lack of feeling anything; as in not feeling any harsh vibration, or any vibration of the shaft at all, and not feeling any twisting of the club head.

    Almost like "What ? Something got in the way of my club head ? Who knew ?"

    if someone is unable to find the sweet spot consistently on a blade, i doubt they can do it on a GI club either. There is no magic formula in a game improvement iron that helps you to hit a "dead solid strike". Your motor skills do not change from one club to another... you can either hit it in the middle or you can't. The GI clubs are designed in such a way that allows any player to feel like they nutted it even if they really didn't or couldn't LOL, OMG, LMAO.

    Lol. And there’s another blatant lie. You can tell whether you hit any club solid or not.

    you can certainly keep telling yourself that... however it will never make it right unfortunately.


    Driver: TM M6 (10.5 deg) with Project X Smoke 60X playing at 45 inches
    3Wood: TM M6 (14 deg) with Project X Smoke 70X playing at 43 inches
    2 iron: TM 790 UDI bent to 19 degrees with Project X HZRDUS 85 X (6.5) at 39.5 inches
    4-GW: TM P760 with KBS Tour X (all bent 2 deg flat) standard length
    Wedges: TM Hi-Toe 56/10 and 60/10 (all bent 2 deg flat) with 2.0 hi-rev shafts both standard lengths
    TM Mullen 2 TP putter @ 34 inches 
    TM TP 5 ball 

     All grips 360 tour velvet burgundy with 1 extra wrap

    Sun mountain 4.5 stand bag

  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @cliffhanger said:

    @BiggErn said:

    @cliffhanger said:

    @nsxguy said:

    @Nard_S said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Nard_S said:
    Regarding feel?
    Forged CB's pale to traditional MB. If I'm going CB I'll stick with cast. Someone once commented that forged CB is the worst of both. I agree.
    Saying you cannot tell the difference between cast or forged Endo or Mizuno or Miura or Hoffman is like saying all coffee tastes the same.

    Agree wholeheartedly with you 1st paragraph... maybe not so much with your 2nd...lol! 😁

    Honestly do not put much stock in feel, but to say a Ping feels like a Mizuno, feels like a Miura, feels like an Endo is willed ignorance. Forging houses have their flavor and OEM brands seek an identifying feel in their gear. You ho enough clubs it's plain as day. :)

    Well, I don't know about "willed ignorance" but I'll stick with my "feel" (of a dead solid strike of course) as being a combination of sound & touch, the sound part being what sounds right to ME and the touch part actually being a lack of feeling anything; as in not feeling any harsh vibration, or any vibration of the shaft at all, and not feeling any twisting of the club head.

    Almost like "What ? Something got in the way of my club head ? Who knew ?"

    if someone is unable to find the sweet spot consistently on a blade, i doubt they can do it on a GI club either. There is no magic formula in a game improvement iron that helps you to hit a "dead solid strike". Your motor skills do not change from one club to another... you can either hit it in the middle or you can't. The GI clubs are designed in such a way that allows any player to feel like they nutted it even if they really didn't or couldn't LOL, OMG, LMAO.

    Lol. And there’s another blatant lie. You can tell whether you hit any club solid or not.

    you can certainly keep telling yourself that... however it will never make it right unfortunately.

    I will as I don’t live in a dream world. It is 100% correct.

  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,487 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    you can certainly keep telling yourself that... however it will never make it right unfortunately.

    I will as I don’t live in a dream world. It is 100% correct.

    Yeah, he's right. "Nutted" is a lack of vibration. You could tell with a snow shovel. CB/MB has nothing to say about that. Now, its possible you just don't know what it feels like in which case you couldn't tell on either. But the idea you can tell on a MB but not on a CB is ridiculous unless you put on mitten right before you swing the CB. Either you can tell or you can't.

    The thread is pretty ridiculous, especially the "are we talking about this again" crowd. Yep, we are. Because, believe it or not, people put down and take up the game of golf all the time and sometimes they try to figure out what irons to buy on internet forums. For the vast majority of weak players that shouldn't be MPs.

    Ping g30 driver, various shafts
    Adams tight lies 3 wood
    rest is up for debate
  • cliffhangercliffhanger spruce grove albertaClubWRX Posts: 1,760 ClubWRX
    edited Apr 19, 2019 10:21pm #944

    @pinestreetgolf said:

    you can certainly keep telling yourself that... however it will never make it right unfortunately.

    I will as I don’t live in a dream world. It is 100% correct.

    Yeah, he's right. "Nutted" is a lack of vibration. You could tell with a snow shovel. CB/MB has nothing to say about that. Now, its possible you just don't know what it feels like in which case you couldn't tell on either. But the idea you can tell on a MB but not on a CB is ridiculous unless you put on mitten right before you swing the CB. Either you can tell or you can't.

    The thread is pretty ridiculous, especially the "are we talking about this again" crowd. Yep, we are. Because, believe it or not, people put down and take up the game of golf all the time and sometimes they try to figure out what irons to buy on internet forums. For the vast majority of weak players that shouldn't be MPs.
    hey why just pick on Mizuno? shouldn't you include all manufacturers who make these hard to hit clubs? lol

    the point of my post was not to say that you can't feel a nutted shot, it was to ask that if you can't hit the middle of the face on a blade, then how does your motor skills change to allow you to do it on a GI, or any other club for that matter. Then the design of the GI would make it hard to distinguish the difference for many golfers between an off center hit where the CB did its job or an actual nutted shot.

    Again... this is in no way related to scoring or handicap or anything... just can you hit the middle of the club and if so why not on any club? Or if you can't on one club, how can you do it on another?

    Post edited by cliffhanger on


    Driver: TM M6 (10.5 deg) with Project X Smoke 60X playing at 45 inches
    3Wood: TM M6 (14 deg) with Project X Smoke 70X playing at 43 inches
    2 iron: TM 790 UDI bent to 19 degrees with Project X HZRDUS 85 X (6.5) at 39.5 inches
    4-GW: TM P760 with KBS Tour X (all bent 2 deg flat) standard length
    Wedges: TM Hi-Toe 56/10 and 60/10 (all bent 2 deg flat) with 2.0 hi-rev shafts both standard lengths
    TM Mullen 2 TP putter @ 34 inches 
    TM TP 5 ball 

     All grips 360 tour velvet burgundy with 1 extra wrap

    Sun mountain 4.5 stand bag

  • nostaticnostatic "i drank what?!?" Socrates lost angelesClubWRX Posts: 201 ClubWRX
    edited Apr 19, 2019 7:36pm #945

    Anyone can hit the middle of the club. The question is how many times out of 100 swings will they do it. Good players will do it more than bad players. Then it becomes a question of how big the "middle" is for a particular club, and what happens when the strike isn't in the middle. The idea that a small sweet spot will be better for training a player probably depends on the player. Eye-hand coordination, physical capabilities, time to practice, etc will all go into the equation. If we did a controlled (as best you can) study of a thousand golfers of varying ability, I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who benefited more from blades. I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who did not benefit more (or as much) from blades. Just a question of the magnitude of those two numbers...

    fwiw I certainly can tell the difference between a good and a poor strike on any club I hit, including the putter. I will always have some variance. The question then becomes do I have enough time, guidance, and talent to minimize that variance to get a high percentage of "good" contacts with a blade (that result in good outcomes), or do I instead pick equipment that helps get good results with less "good" swings? That calculation will be different for everyone. In addition ego is in play (along with other psychological issues), so if that isn't considered, you're missing another part of the equation.

    Ping G400Max 10.5 XTorsion S - Cobra F9 3W 16 Devo7 S - F9 3H Devo8 S 
    Mizuno 919 Hot Metal Pro 4-PW - 919F GW - S18 55/09 PX LZ Tour 6.0 - Ping Glide2.0 Stealth 58TS
    Odyssey StrokeLab Double Wide Flow
  • arbeckarbeck SeattleMembers Posts: 438 ✭✭✭✭

    @Nard_S said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @Nard_S said:
    Regarding feel?
    Forged CB's pale to traditional MB. If I'm going CB I'll stick with cast. Someone once commented that forged CB is the worst of both. I agree.
    Saying you cannot tell the difference between cast or forged Endo or Mizuno or Miura or Hoffman is like saying all coffee tastes the same.

    Agree wholeheartedly with you 1st paragraph... maybe not so much with your 2nd...lol! 😁

    Honestly do not put much stock in feel, but to say a Ping feels like a Mizuno, feels like a Miura, feels like an Endo is willed ignorance. Forging houses have their flavor and OEM brands seek an identifying feel in their gear. You ho enough clubs it's plain as day. :)

    The forging houses have a specific resonant frequency of sound they want the club to make. That's the difference in feel that we get from different brands. When the Mizuno rep was being interviewed by TXG he was able to call out the exact frequency that Luke Donald prefers. Mizuno makes their clubs to sound that way, and that's why nothing else feels like a Mizuno (because nothing else vibrates at exactly the same frequency).

    Ping Traverse
    King Cobra F7 10.5* w/ Mitsubishi Tensi CK Blue 60 set at 9.5*
    TEE E8 4W, 7W
    Mizuno JPX-900 Hot Metal 5-SW w/ Veylix Alpina 873
    TEE CB PROs 60*
    Scotty Cameron Squareback
  • cliffhangercliffhanger spruce grove albertaClubWRX Posts: 1,760 ClubWRX

    @nostatic said:
    Anyone can hit the middle of the club. The question is how many times out of 100 swings will they do it. Good players will do it more than bad players. Then it becomes a question of how big the "middle" is for a particular club, and what happens when the strike isn't in the middle. The idea that a small sweet spot will be better for training a player probably depends on the player. Eye-hand coordination, physical capabilities, time to practice, etc will all go into the equation. If we did a controlled (as best you can) study of a thousand golfers of varying ability, I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who benefited more from blades. I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who did not benefit more (or as much) from blades. Just a question of the magnitude of those two numbers...

    fwiw I certainly can tell the difference between a good and a poor strike on any club I hit, including the putter. I will always have some variance. The question then becomes do I have enough time, guidance, and talent to minimize that variance to get a high percentage of "good" contacts with a blade (that result in good outcomes), or do I instead pick equipment that helps get good results with less "good" swings? That calculation will be different for everyone. In addition ego is in play (along with other psychological issues), so if that isn't considered, you're missing another part of the equation.

    i get it that better players hit the middle more, however what changes from one club to the next that allows it to happen more or less for any golfer of any ability.

    Also i don't understand how the "middle" of the club changes in size based on any particular club... i really don't think it does unless the CB guys use a different tool to measure the center of the face that allows it to be larger? If you are referring to the sweet spot being larger in some clubs, yes that will be larger or smaller based on the club and that was my point... some designs allow a player to hit it close to the sweet spot and it feels good however it wasn't necessarily "nutted" or "pured" or hit in the center of the face.

    Does a larger club face allow a golfer to hit the absolute middle of the club easier? Knowing that the center (not sweet spot) is 100% comparable on every club must be taken into account while answering that.


    Driver: TM M6 (10.5 deg) with Project X Smoke 60X playing at 45 inches
    3Wood: TM M6 (14 deg) with Project X Smoke 70X playing at 43 inches
    2 iron: TM 790 UDI bent to 19 degrees with Project X HZRDUS 85 X (6.5) at 39.5 inches
    4-GW: TM P760 with KBS Tour X (all bent 2 deg flat) standard length
    Wedges: TM Hi-Toe 56/10 and 60/10 (all bent 2 deg flat) with 2.0 hi-rev shafts both standard lengths
    TM Mullen 2 TP putter @ 34 inches 
    TM TP 5 ball 

     All grips 360 tour velvet burgundy with 1 extra wrap

    Sun mountain 4.5 stand bag

  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    The sweetspot is no larger on GI clubs than MB blades, but the "effective hitting area" is larger. Generally, you'll get more acceptable/favorable results in terms of launch, ball speed, and direction across a larger area of the club face with a perimeter weighted CB than with a n MB blade.

    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @cliffhanger said:

    @nostatic said:
    Anyone can hit the middle of the club. The question is how many times out of 100 swings will they do it. Good players will do it more than bad players. Then it becomes a question of how big the "middle" is for a particular club, and what happens when the strike isn't in the middle. The idea that a small sweet spot will be better for training a player probably depends on the player. Eye-hand coordination, physical capabilities, time to practice, etc will all go into the equation. If we did a controlled (as best you can) study of a thousand golfers of varying ability, I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who benefited more from blades. I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who did not benefit more (or as much) from blades. Just a question of the magnitude of those two numbers...

    fwiw I certainly can tell the difference between a good and a poor strike on any club I hit, including the putter. I will always have some variance. The question then becomes do I have enough time, guidance, and talent to minimize that variance to get a high percentage of "good" contacts with a blade (that result in good outcomes), or do I instead pick equipment that helps get good results with less "good" swings? That calculation will be different for everyone. In addition ego is in play (along with other psychological issues), so if that isn't considered, you're missing another part of the equation.

    i get it that better players hit the middle more, however what changes from one club to the next that allows it to happen more or less for any golfer of any ability.

    Also i don't understand how the "middle" of the club changes in size based on any particular club... i really don't think it does unless the CB guys use a different tool to measure the center of the face that allows it to be larger? If you are referring to the sweet spot being larger in some clubs, yes that will be larger or smaller based on the club and that was my point... some designs allow a player to hit it close to the sweet spot and it feels good however it wasn't necessarily "nutted" or "pured" or hit in the center of the face.

    Does a larger club face allow a golfer to hit the absolute middle of the club easier? Knowing that the center (not sweet spot) is 100% comparable on every club must be taken into account while answering that.

    What is a better player to you? There are some guys who essentially never miss the middle of the face. Some use MBs and some use CBs. There aren’t many “better” players playing MBs that miss the middle very often.

  • cliffhangercliffhanger spruce grove albertaClubWRX Posts: 1,760 ClubWRX

    @BiggErn said:

    @cliffhanger said:

    @nostatic said:
    Anyone can hit the middle of the club. The question is how many times out of 100 swings will they do it. Good players will do it more than bad players. Then it becomes a question of how big the "middle" is for a particular club, and what happens when the strike isn't in the middle. The idea that a small sweet spot will be better for training a player probably depends on the player. Eye-hand coordination, physical capabilities, time to practice, etc will all go into the equation. If we did a controlled (as best you can) study of a thousand golfers of varying ability, I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who benefited more from blades. I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who did not benefit more (or as much) from blades. Just a question of the magnitude of those two numbers...

    fwiw I certainly can tell the difference between a good and a poor strike on any club I hit, including the putter. I will always have some variance. The question then becomes do I have enough time, guidance, and talent to minimize that variance to get a high percentage of "good" contacts with a blade (that result in good outcomes), or do I instead pick equipment that helps get good results with less "good" swings? That calculation will be different for everyone. In addition ego is in play (along with other psychological issues), so if that isn't considered, you're missing another part of the equation.

    i get it that better players hit the middle more, however what changes from one club to the next that allows it to happen more or less for any golfer of any ability.

    Also i don't understand how the "middle" of the club changes in size based on any particular club... i really don't think it does unless the CB guys use a different tool to measure the center of the face that allows it to be larger? If you are referring to the sweet spot being larger in some clubs, yes that will be larger or smaller based on the club and that was my point... some designs allow a player to hit it close to the sweet spot and it feels good however it wasn't necessarily "nutted" or "pured" or hit in the center of the face.

    Does a larger club face allow a golfer to hit the absolute middle of the club easier? Knowing that the center (not sweet spot) is 100% comparable on every club must be taken into account while answering that.

    What is a better player to you? There are some guys who essentially never miss the middle of the face. Some use MBs and some use CBs. There aren’t many “better” players playing MBs that miss the middle very often.

    The definition of a better player is irrelevant to my post... my point of you took the time to read it was regarding the difference in strikes from one club to another... if a guy swears he usually nuts a CB, then why couldn’t usually do the same with an MB? And vice versa of course. Every club has a center... and if you can hit one, you should be able to hit the other with the same consistency.


    Driver: TM M6 (10.5 deg) with Project X Smoke 60X playing at 45 inches
    3Wood: TM M6 (14 deg) with Project X Smoke 70X playing at 43 inches
    2 iron: TM 790 UDI bent to 19 degrees with Project X HZRDUS 85 X (6.5) at 39.5 inches
    4-GW: TM P760 with KBS Tour X (all bent 2 deg flat) standard length
    Wedges: TM Hi-Toe 56/10 and 60/10 (all bent 2 deg flat) with 2.0 hi-rev shafts both standard lengths
    TM Mullen 2 TP putter @ 34 inches 
    TM TP 5 ball 

     All grips 360 tour velvet burgundy with 1 extra wrap

    Sun mountain 4.5 stand bag

  • cliffhangercliffhanger spruce grove albertaClubWRX Posts: 1,760 ClubWRX

    @dpb5031 said:
    The sweetspot is no larger on GI clubs than MB blades, but the "effective hitting area" is larger. Generally, you'll get more acceptable/favorable results in terms of launch, ball speed, and direction across a larger area of the club face with a perimeter weighted CB than with a n MB blade.

    Yes and a bigger effective hittin area makes it more difficult to decipher between an almost center strike and an actual center strike. That’s why weight is pulled away from the center to the perimeter. I just laugh that guys who play CB’s swear they flush them all the time and yet can’t really hit blades well... if that’s the case, your not really nutting those CB’s either, the club by design is somewhat hiding your mistakes. Unless someone can prove its harder to hit the center of one club over another when all things are equal besides the head design.


    Driver: TM M6 (10.5 deg) with Project X Smoke 60X playing at 45 inches
    3Wood: TM M6 (14 deg) with Project X Smoke 70X playing at 43 inches
    2 iron: TM 790 UDI bent to 19 degrees with Project X HZRDUS 85 X (6.5) at 39.5 inches
    4-GW: TM P760 with KBS Tour X (all bent 2 deg flat) standard length
    Wedges: TM Hi-Toe 56/10 and 60/10 (all bent 2 deg flat) with 2.0 hi-rev shafts both standard lengths
    TM Mullen 2 TP putter @ 34 inches 
    TM TP 5 ball 

     All grips 360 tour velvet burgundy with 1 extra wrap

    Sun mountain 4.5 stand bag

  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @cliffhanger said:

    @BiggErn said:

    @cliffhanger said:

    @nostatic said:
    Anyone can hit the middle of the club. The question is how many times out of 100 swings will they do it. Good players will do it more than bad players. Then it becomes a question of how big the "middle" is for a particular club, and what happens when the strike isn't in the middle. The idea that a small sweet spot will be better for training a player probably depends on the player. Eye-hand coordination, physical capabilities, time to practice, etc will all go into the equation. If we did a controlled (as best you can) study of a thousand golfers of varying ability, I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who benefited more from blades. I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who did not benefit more (or as much) from blades. Just a question of the magnitude of those two numbers...

    fwiw I certainly can tell the difference between a good and a poor strike on any club I hit, including the putter. I will always have some variance. The question then becomes do I have enough time, guidance, and talent to minimize that variance to get a high percentage of "good" contacts with a blade (that result in good outcomes), or do I instead pick equipment that helps get good results with less "good" swings? That calculation will be different for everyone. In addition ego is in play (along with other psychological issues), so if that isn't considered, you're missing another part of the equation.

    i get it that better players hit the middle more, however what changes from one club to the next that allows it to happen more or less for any golfer of any ability.

    Also i don't understand how the "middle" of the club changes in size based on any particular club... i really don't think it does unless the CB guys use a different tool to measure the center of the face that allows it to be larger? If you are referring to the sweet spot being larger in some clubs, yes that will be larger or smaller based on the club and that was my point... some designs allow a player to hit it close to the sweet spot and it feels good however it wasn't necessarily "nutted" or "pured" or hit in the center of the face.

    Does a larger club face allow a golfer to hit the absolute middle of the club easier? Knowing that the center (not sweet spot) is 100% comparable on every club must be taken into account while answering that.

    What is a better player to you? There are some guys who essentially never miss the middle of the face. Some use MBs and some use CBs. There aren’t many “better” players playing MBs that miss the middle very often.

    The definition of a better player is irrelevant to my post... my point of you took the time to read it was regarding the difference in strikes from one club to another... if a guy swears he usually nuts a CB, then why couldn’t usually do the same with an MB? And vice versa of course. Every club has a center... and if you can hit one, you should be able to hit the other with the same consistency.

    Lol nice deflection. I already said the rest though. A person that hits the ball solid pretty much every time can play whatever they want.

  • cliffhangercliffhanger spruce grove albertaClubWRX Posts: 1,760 ClubWRX

    @BiggErn said:

    @cliffhanger said:

    @BiggErn said:

    @cliffhanger said:

    @nostatic said:
    Anyone can hit the middle of the club. The question is how many times out of 100 swings will they do it. Good players will do it more than bad players. Then it becomes a question of how big the "middle" is for a particular club, and what happens when the strike isn't in the middle. The idea that a small sweet spot will be better for training a player probably depends on the player. Eye-hand coordination, physical capabilities, time to practice, etc will all go into the equation. If we did a controlled (as best you can) study of a thousand golfers of varying ability, I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who benefited more from blades. I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who did not benefit more (or as much) from blades. Just a question of the magnitude of those two numbers...

    fwiw I certainly can tell the difference between a good and a poor strike on any club I hit, including the putter. I will always have some variance. The question then becomes do I have enough time, guidance, and talent to minimize that variance to get a high percentage of "good" contacts with a blade (that result in good outcomes), or do I instead pick equipment that helps get good results with less "good" swings? That calculation will be different for everyone. In addition ego is in play (along with other psychological issues), so if that isn't considered, you're missing another part of the equation.

    i get it that better players hit the middle more, however what changes from one club to the next that allows it to happen more or less for any golfer of any ability.

    Also i don't understand how the "middle" of the club changes in size based on any particular club... i really don't think it does unless the CB guys use a different tool to measure the center of the face that allows it to be larger? If you are referring to the sweet spot being larger in some clubs, yes that will be larger or smaller based on the club and that was my point... some designs allow a player to hit it close to the sweet spot and it feels good however it wasn't necessarily "nutted" or "pured" or hit in the center of the face.

    Does a larger club face allow a golfer to hit the absolute middle of the club easier? Knowing that the center (not sweet spot) is 100% comparable on every club must be taken into account while answering that.

    What is a better player to you? There are some guys who essentially never miss the middle of the face. Some use MBs and some use CBs. There aren’t many “better” players playing MBs that miss the middle very often.

    The definition of a better player is irrelevant to my post... my point of you took the time to read it was regarding the difference in strikes from one club to another... if a guy swears he usually nuts a CB, then why couldn’t usually do the same with an MB? And vice versa of course. Every club has a center... and if you can hit one, you should be able to hit the other with the same consistency.

    Lol nice deflection. I already said the rest though. A person that hits the ball solid pretty much every time can play whatever they want.

    No deflection here, however you should look in the mirror. That person who you desribe as hitting the ball solid pretty much every time, do they notice the difference between solid and perfect?


    Driver: TM M6 (10.5 deg) with Project X Smoke 60X playing at 45 inches
    3Wood: TM M6 (14 deg) with Project X Smoke 70X playing at 43 inches
    2 iron: TM 790 UDI bent to 19 degrees with Project X HZRDUS 85 X (6.5) at 39.5 inches
    4-GW: TM P760 with KBS Tour X (all bent 2 deg flat) standard length
    Wedges: TM Hi-Toe 56/10 and 60/10 (all bent 2 deg flat) with 2.0 hi-rev shafts both standard lengths
    TM Mullen 2 TP putter @ 34 inches 
    TM TP 5 ball 

     All grips 360 tour velvet burgundy with 1 extra wrap

    Sun mountain 4.5 stand bag

  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @cliffhanger said:

    @BiggErn said:

    @cliffhanger said:

    @BiggErn said:

    @cliffhanger said:

    @nostatic said:
    Anyone can hit the middle of the club. The question is how many times out of 100 swings will they do it. Good players will do it more than bad players. Then it becomes a question of how big the "middle" is for a particular club, and what happens when the strike isn't in the middle. The idea that a small sweet spot will be better for training a player probably depends on the player. Eye-hand coordination, physical capabilities, time to practice, etc will all go into the equation. If we did a controlled (as best you can) study of a thousand golfers of varying ability, I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who benefited more from blades. I'm willing to bet that there would be some number who did not benefit more (or as much) from blades. Just a question of the magnitude of those two numbers...

    fwiw I certainly can tell the difference between a good and a poor strike on any club I hit, including the putter. I will always have some variance. The question then becomes do I have enough time, guidance, and talent to minimize that variance to get a high percentage of "good" contacts with a blade (that result in good outcomes), or do I instead pick equipment that helps get good results with less "good" swings? That calculation will be different for everyone. In addition ego is in play (along with other psychological issues), so if that isn't considered, you're missing another part of the equation.

    i get it that better players hit the middle more, however what changes from one club to the next that allows it to happen more or less for any golfer of any ability.

    Also i don't understand how the "middle" of the club changes in size based on any particular club... i really don't think it does unless the CB guys use a different tool to measure the center of the face that allows it to be larger? If you are referring to the sweet spot being larger in some clubs, yes that will be larger or smaller based on the club and that was my point... some designs allow a player to hit it close to the sweet spot and it feels good however it wasn't necessarily "nutted" or "pured" or hit in the center of the face.

    Does a larger club face allow a golfer to hit the absolute middle of the club easier? Knowing that the center (not sweet spot) is 100% comparable on every club must be taken into account while answering that.

    What is a better player to you? There are some guys who essentially never miss the middle of the face. Some use MBs and some use CBs. There aren’t many “better” players playing MBs that miss the middle very often.

    The definition of a better player is irrelevant to my post... my point of you took the time to read it was regarding the difference in strikes from one club to another... if a guy swears he usually nuts a CB, then why couldn’t usually do the same with an MB? And vice versa of course. Every club has a center... and if you can hit one, you should be able to hit the other with the same consistency.

    Lol nice deflection. I already said the rest though. A person that hits the ball solid pretty much every time can play whatever they want.

    No deflection here, however you should look in the mirror. That person who you desribe as hitting the ball solid pretty much every time, do they notice the difference between solid and perfect?

    Lol. Solid, perfect, pure, nutted, on the screws,.....whatever. If you’re resorting to word games and deflecting from what you believe a better player is just proves you can’t make a rational argument. Just like all the rest that claim “forgiveness is a myth”, “MBs just work for my swing”, yada yada yada.

  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,487 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Apr 20, 2019 4:04am #955

    Edit to not continue this conversation.

    Post edited by pinestreetgolf on
    Ping g30 driver, various shafts
    Adams tight lies 3 wood
    rest is up for debate
  • cliffhangercliffhanger spruce grove albertaClubWRX Posts: 1,760 ClubWRX

    @pinestreetgolf said:
    Edit to not continue this conversation.

    i had a chance to read your post pre edit... i just have this issue with how this debate all plays out. In one way it is totally justified for a single digit cap to play their CB's and nut them and at the same time they say they struggle with the MB's. In another way it is apparently impossible for any mid cap to hit anything solid let alone an MB and no explanation is an acceptable justification.

    Whatever everyone's own justification is to play what they play, an individuals motor skills will ultimately determine their success and the percentage of good to bad shots with that specific club. Granted the club is fit for their abilities. It is quite possible for a good golfer who really understands the game to struggle with their motor skills... then again a new golfer to the game can possess very good motor skills and thus not struggle with striking a ball in a solid fashion and yet not score well. We have to accept that there is both.

    I just can't buy into the fact that an MB is hard to hit and yet a CB can be flushed with ease by the same player. They both have a center point (not talking sweetspot here) and if the center can be struck with ease on one... then why not the other? There is no doubt that there is a drop-off in distance with an MB on off center hits however it isn't an automatic or standard number, its player specific and in certain cases, there is virtually no difference in the drop-off from an MB mishit or a CB mishit. Unless of course the MB is not fit for the golfer then i imagine the drop-off most certainly would be more with the MB. I also stand with my comment that if a player mishits a blade iron then he most likely isn't striking his CB perfectly either, he just doesn't realize it because the club saves him.

    If we are talking averages thats fine... however there is nothing average about the individuality of each and every golfers swing. If a person has good motor skills in relation to the golf swing it really doesn't matter what they play... again solid contact doesn't always relate to good scoring (not talking ball striking here). There are a lot of scenarios where no club will either correct or save the golfer from a bad result even with a solid strike. The main problem with averages is that with an estimated 21 million mid cap golfers in the world, it is very likely that not everyone falls into the average profile that is being discussed here.


    Driver: TM M6 (10.5 deg) with Project X Smoke 60X playing at 45 inches
    3Wood: TM M6 (14 deg) with Project X Smoke 70X playing at 43 inches
    2 iron: TM 790 UDI bent to 19 degrees with Project X HZRDUS 85 X (6.5) at 39.5 inches
    4-GW: TM P760 with KBS Tour X (all bent 2 deg flat) standard length
    Wedges: TM Hi-Toe 56/10 and 60/10 (all bent 2 deg flat) with 2.0 hi-rev shafts both standard lengths
    TM Mullen 2 TP putter @ 34 inches 
    TM TP 5 ball 

     All grips 360 tour velvet burgundy with 1 extra wrap

    Sun mountain 4.5 stand bag

  • tannyhobantannyhoban Members Posts: 1,878 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @BMC said:

    @MelloYello said:
    @dpb5031
    In places where we have circumstantial evidence we have to accept a narrative. I don't believe your narrative that it's all marketing. There are logical wrinkles there which I pointed out. It's not the interest of OEMs to do it the hard way if casting would be just as good. At the end of the day, clubs aren't sold based on the fact they have "1025" carbon steel. Very few people know that. A person will simply say "X feels better than Y." I have no reason to believe cast blade irons would somehow be impossible to sell because people are obsessed with the details of forging. I don't buy that. Advertising does not control as you're describing. It's a cop out argument IMHO.

    Also, you keep saying "most of the mass behind the sweet spot" when obviously that isn't true. A blade doesn't clump the mass behind the sweet spot at all. The muscle extends rather uniformly from heel to toe, not to mention the thickness of the club varies from the sole to the top-line going from thicker at the bottom to thinner at the top with a slight drop-off near the middle where the top of the muscle ends.

    So I don't quite see why you're so obsessed with this notion that placing mass close to the CG results in better feel. What exactly is your reasoning for saying that? If you're saying there is wide-spread anecdotal evidence based on what people say, well, you can't criticize that line of reasoning in the case of forged vs cast, can you?

    Again, we're not metallurgists so to speak as though all forgings are the same or all castings are the same is probably not safe. I just know that when two companies make clubs which are really close to being the same in geometry (i.e. Mizuno blades versus Titleist blades) and yet people seem to prefer the form in feel, there might be something to the material argument.

    I prefer not to have uneducated debates. I'm fine leaving it there. A certain percentage of cast clubs may rival the feel or forged. I just don't have the answer to whether that's true, let alone exactly why.

    These are my 1990 VIPs. They're cast and have a substantial muscle behind the sweet spot. I've owned many true blades, and the cast blades feel as good as any of the forged ones I've played.

    You are mistaken. From the Macgregor Golf History - Catalogs those 1990s are defintely forged.

  • BMCBMC Members Posts: 3,645 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @tannyhoban said:

    @BMC said:

    @MelloYello said:
    @dpb5031
    In places where we have circumstantial evidence we have to accept a narrative. I don't believe your narrative that it's all marketing. There are logical wrinkles there which I pointed out. It's not the interest of OEMs to do it the hard way if casting would be just as good. At the end of the day, clubs aren't sold based on the fact they have "1025" carbon steel. Very few people know that. A person will simply say "X feels better than Y." I have no reason to believe cast blade irons would somehow be impossible to sell because people are obsessed with the details of forging. I don't buy that. Advertising does not control as you're describing. It's a cop out argument IMHO.

    Also, you keep saying "most of the mass behind the sweet spot" when obviously that isn't true. A blade doesn't clump the mass behind the sweet spot at all. The muscle extends rather uniformly from heel to toe, not to mention the thickness of the club varies from the sole to the top-line going from thicker at the bottom to thinner at the top with a slight drop-off near the middle where the top of the muscle ends.

    So I don't quite see why you're so obsessed with this notion that placing mass close to the CG results in better feel. What exactly is your reasoning for saying that? If you're saying there is wide-spread anecdotal evidence based on what people say, well, you can't criticize that line of reasoning in the case of forged vs cast, can you?

    Again, we're not metallurgists so to speak as though all forgings are the same or all castings are the same is probably not safe. I just know that when two companies make clubs which are really close to being the same in geometry (i.e. Mizuno blades versus Titleist blades) and yet people seem to prefer the form in feel, there might be something to the material argument.

    I prefer not to have uneducated debates. I'm fine leaving it there. A certain percentage of cast clubs may rival the feel or forged. I just don't have the answer to whether that's true, let alone exactly why.

    These are my 1990 VIPs. They're cast and have a substantial muscle behind the sweet spot. I've owned many true blades, and the cast blades feel as good as any of the forged ones I've played.

    You are mistaken. From the Macgregor Golf History - Catalogs those 1990s are defintely forged.

    You may be right, I didn't get them new. But, according to "Ironfinder"...1990-1993
    Satin finish. Investment cast stainless steel head. Muscleback design. Diamond pattern on face.

    Titleist 917D2
    Callaway Rogue 4-wood
    Callaway 2018 MB irons
    Callaway MD4 wedges
    NIKE Method Mod 60 putter
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @cliffhanger said:
    ** I just can't buy into the fact that an MB is hard to hit and yet a CB can be flushed with ease by the same player.** They both have a center point (not talking sweetspot here) and if the center can be struck with ease on one... then why not the other? There is no doubt that there is a drop-off in distance with an MB on off center hits however it isn't an automatic or standard number, its player specific and in certain cases, there is virtually no difference in the drop-off from an MB mishit or a CB mishit. Unless of course the MB is not fit for the golfer then i imagine the drop-off most certainly would be more with the MB. I also stand with my comment that if a player mishits a blade iron then he most likely isn't striking his CB perfectly either, he just doesn't realize it because the club saves him.

    If we are talking averages thats fine...

    Disclaimer - I didn't see pinestreet's post.

    You have a propensity for "moving the goalposts" so I'll just ask you this.

    When did the thread become about your "an MB is hard to hit and yet a CB can be flushed with ease by the same player" ? I think I missed that. Can you kindly point it out to me ?

    I would have thought the thread was mainly about your "if a player mishits a blade iron then he most likely isn't striking his CB perfectly either, he just doesn't realize it because the club saves him"

    TIA

    Callaway Epic 10.5 Project X Hzrdus Yellow 63 gr, 6.0
    Adams A12 Pro hybrids, 16*, Aldila VS Proto Stiff
    Ping G400 19* hybrid Stiff 70 Stock shaft

    Ping G20, 5-PW, DGS300
    Ping Glide Forged 48*, 52* 56*, 60* DGS300
    Taylormade Tour Spider Black (Today - always subject to change LOL)
    Titleist AVX
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Bigmean said:

    Why can no one wrap their head around the fact that cbs don’t make bad shots good and blades don’t make small misses terrible and that whatever minimal differences between 2 confirming irons has no effect on an actual score which is mostly determined by swings, decision making, luck of when and how missed happen, and your mind.

    Unfortunately neither you (nor I) will EVER be able to prove (or disprove) that.

    So bottom line it's just your opinion against others with an opposite opinion.

    Callaway Epic 10.5 Project X Hzrdus Yellow 63 gr, 6.0
    Adams A12 Pro hybrids, 16*, Aldila VS Proto Stiff
    Ping G400 19* hybrid Stiff 70 Stock shaft

    Ping G20, 5-PW, DGS300
    Ping Glide Forged 48*, 52* 56*, 60* DGS300
    Taylormade Tour Spider Black (Today - always subject to change LOL)
    Titleist AVX

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