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Tour to implement driver testing

wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat SunflowerMembers Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭

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  • Man_O_WarMan_O_War Members Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    why only driver? maybe add 3 wood? It's a great idea. Although not sure how much yardage pros can pick up with a slightly hot face. Was Xander's driver going 30 yards further or 5 yards? obviously the tour will do what it wants

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  • BIG STUBIG STU Members Posts: 11,698 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    From what they said on the GC ( take that at face value LOL) the drivers were picked at random and in this case it was the R&A not the USGA that did the surprise test. Now Xander's name was the only name that came out ( not sure why) but it was stated several other drivers were tested and some of them were deemed non-conforming others were conforming. From what I just saw the PGA Tour was going to test and rate the following
    Red--- The driver does not conform
    Yellow ---- barely conforms but may be non conforming after being hit some more ( huuh? scratches head)
    Green--- conforming
    The GC announcers were even confused by all of this as I was

    I can nip it all in the bud make them go back to hitting persimmon drivers no issues there. Heck I have quite a few I can part with and Links Soul a forum sponsor here still makes and sells them as Louisville golf does

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  • BIG STUBIG STU Members Posts: 11,698 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Man_O_War said:
    why only driver? maybe add 3 wood? It's a great idea. Although not sure how much yardage pros can pick up with a slightly hot face. Was Xander's driver going 30 yards further or 5 yards? obviously the tour will do what it wants

    With their swing speed and precise striking capabilities I would say quite a bit. Like I previously stated all of this was at the Open Championship and the R&A was involved. Now the PGA Tour has had a knee jerk reaction and implemented this policy. I have not seen any reason published as to why they pulled this random test if it was random at all. Will be interesting to see what other WRX members have heard on all of this

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  • Man_O_WarMan_O_War Members Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Tiger did have VJ's driver tested once i believe. Maybe a pro called in on Xander

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  • grm24grm24 Western PAMembers Posts: 3,581 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 5, 2019 8:36pm #6

    @Man_O_War said:
    Tiger did have VJ's driver tested once i believe. Maybe a pro called in on Xander

    Tom Pernice (VJs buddy) had Tigers driver tested one year at Bay Hill.
    https://www.golfchannel.com/article/associated-press/pga-tour-tests-tigers-driver

    No pro called it in on Xander. There were 30 drivers randomly tested by the R&A at the Open Championship this year including Tigers which passed. There were 3 drivers that failed this year. Only Xanders was confirmed. The R&A also tested 30 drivers at last years Open Championship. This was heavily dicussed here.

  • grm24grm24 Western PAMembers Posts: 3,581 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 5, 2019 8:44pm #7

    @Man_O_War said:
    why only driver? maybe add 3 wood? It's a great idea. Although not sure how much yardage pros can pick up with a slightly hot face. Was Xander's driver going 30 yards further or 5 yards?

    About the diameter of two golf balls. As previously reported Xanders driver was barely over the CT limit of 257.

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/driver-testing-on-tour-what-happens-what-doesnt-and-what-probably-should

    A good rule of thumb is 10 microseconds (which would be highly unlikely any driver would be over the limit by) might equal one yard. That would mean one microsecond (the absolute difference between passing and failing the CT test) might equal the diameter of two golf balls.

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/callaway-ceo-on-failed-driver-test-if-anybody-deserves-blame-its-us-but-in-all-fairness-im-not-sure-we-did-anything-wrong

    "We know Xander’s driver was conforming when he received it. Probably in the range of 245 – 250 CT. At the Open we tested it at 255 CT, still conforming but close to the limit. The R&A tested it at 258, one over the limit.

  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,965 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Cant imagine anyone continuing to use a "yellow" light driver.

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  • FergusonFerguson Members Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Per the Tour, the new policy is a response to originally conforming drivers that can, over time, creep their way beyond the Characteristic Time (CT) limit, which measures the spring-like effect of a clubface.

    Green – The club is conforming and may be used in subsequent rounds.
    Yellow – The club is conforming and may be used in subsequent rounds, but the result is within the USGA published tolerance. This means that during any subsequent testing there is a higher likelihood that the club, when tested, will exceed the limit plus tolerance. Continued usage of the club could further increase the likelihood that the club will exceed the limit plus tolerance.
    Red – The club is deemed to have been damaged into a non-conforming state and as such may not be used in subsequent rounds.

    Since the manufacturers already know the creep limits and are aware of how many strikes it takes to a face in order to deem it "non-conforming", I believe both the player and manufacturer should be fined.

    Those caught playing or attempting to play a non-conforming driver due to creep "CT" shall be fined $ 10,000 and be ineligible for 3 events. The manufacturer should be fined $ 5,000 per non-conforming club.

  • mosesgolfmosesgolf Members Posts: 6,896 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    .830 vs .832 COR vs .835 COR etc. How many feet longer? 2-3 feet? .830 vs .860 was ten yards for me. But .830 vs .832 negligible at best imo.

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  • grm24grm24 Western PAMembers Posts: 3,581 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @mosesgolf said:
    .830 vs .832 COR vs .835 COR etc. How many feet longer? 2-3 feet? .830 vs .860 was ten yards for me. But .830 vs .832 negligible at best imo.

    Drivers are no longer measured for COR. The CT measurement is used and has been for some time.

  • lowheellowheel LOWHEEL Members Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2019 8:09am #12

    @Man_O_War said:
    why only driver? maybe add 3 wood? It's a great idea. Although not sure how much yardage pros can pick up with a slightly hot face. Was Xander's driver going 30 yards further or 5 yards? obviously the tour will do what it wants

    it could be a big difference.I hit a japanese 0.86cor driver 2 years ago on trackman and picked up 4-5 mph ballspeed. The CT measurement is more precise and could lead to hotter ballspeeds

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Huge waste of time. Huge. A hot driver is worth 3/5 yards tops. Max . That’s it. All this will do is cause more drama to justify more golf Chanel reporters than we never heard of.

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  • J13J13 Dad golf Members Posts: 15,632 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    This has a recipe for failure written all over it.

    They need to add that if a driver is tested and conforming on thursday then it is deemed legal until the end of the tourney regardless if it creeps over the limit.

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  • ChristosteroneChristosterone Reverse C ClubWRX Posts: 1,502 ClubWRX

    I am a huge Vijay fan...
    But he once called in during the telecast after his round was over and made a formal complaint about Phil’s driver.
    He said Phil was outhitting him by 30 yards.
    Phil’s driver was tested and found to be not only conforming but actually well below the COR requirements..
    Phil and Vijay later fought over Phil’s shoe spikes as Vijay was in a group in behind them and said his shoes were tearing up his putting lines..
    They almost came to blows in the locker room...2005 if memory serves

    -Chris

    @Man_O_War said:
    Tiger did have VJ's driver tested once i believe. Maybe a pro called in on Xander

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  • BottleCapBottleCap Members Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @BIG STU said:
    From what they said on the GC ( take that at face value LOL) the drivers were picked at random and in this case it was the R&A not the USGA that did the surprise test. Now Xander's name was the only name that came out ( not sure why) but it was stated several other drivers were tested and some of them were deemed non-conforming others were conforming. From what I just saw the PGA Tour was going to test and rate the following
    Red--- The driver does not conform
    Yellow ---- barely conforms but may be non conforming after being hit some more ( huuh? scratches head)
    Green--- conforming
    The GC announcers were even confused by all of this as I was

    I can nip it all in the bud make them go back to hitting persimmon drivers no issues there. Heck I have quite a few I can part with and Links Soul a forum sponsor here still makes and sells them as Louisville golf does

    Why would anyone think that the USGA would be testing clubs at the British Open?

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2019 2:08pm #17

    @Christosterone said:
    I am a huge Vijay fan...
    But he once called in during the telecast after his round was over and made a formal complaint about Phil’s driver.
    He said Phil was outhitting him by 30 yards.
    Phil’s driver was tested and found to be not only conforming but actually well below the COR requirements..
    Phil and Vijay later fought over Phil’s shoe spikes as Vijay was in a group in behind them and said his shoes were tearing up his putting lines..
    They almost came to blows in the locker room...2005 if memory serves

    -Chris

    @Man_O_War said:
    Tiger did have VJ's driver tested once i believe. Maybe a pro called in on Xander

    Yep. Big Vijay and Phil fan here. That was just two bull moose butting heads. You’ll have that with big dogs.

    Vijay has always been a distance fanatic. I have a first hand account story about him in a practice round with a PGA rookie from 05-05ish who hit it pretty far .... apparently both were hitting same driver at the time , and the youngster was blowing it by Vijay. So he asks to hit the kids driver on one hole. Young guy obliged him and Vijay then pounds one out past the kids ball and much longer than his own drive with his own driver...... he grunts and hands the club back. Saying nothing. After the practice round Vijay bee lines to the truck for that club maker and reams those guys out for building him “ sub par drivers”. More proof that it’s always the clubs fault never the guy swinging it. The fact that they played different shafts and lofts apparently meant nothing to him. Lol

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  • Man_O_WarMan_O_War Members Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @Christosterone said:
    I am a huge Vijay fan...
    But he once called in during the telecast after his round was over and made a formal complaint about Phil’s driver.
    He said Phil was outhitting him by 30 yards.
    Phil’s driver was tested and found to be not only conforming but actually well below the COR requirements..
    Phil and Vijay later fought over Phil’s shoe spikes as Vijay was in a group in behind them and said his shoes were tearing up his putting lines..
    They almost came to blows in the locker room...2005 if memory serves

    -Chris

    @Man_O_War said:
    Tiger did have VJ's driver tested once i believe. Maybe a pro called in on Xander

    Yep. Big Vijay and Phil fan here. That was just two bull moose butting heads. You’ll have that with big dogs.

    Vijay has always been a distance fanatic. I have a first hand account story about him in a practice round with a PGA rookie from 05-05ish who hit it pretty far .... apparently both were hitting same driver at the time , and the youngster was blowing it by Vijay. So he asks to hit the kids driver on one hole. Young guy obliged him and Vijay then pounds one out past the kids ball and much longer than his own drive with his own driver...... he grunts and hands the club back. Saying nothing. After the practice round Vijay bee lines to the truck for that club maker and reams those guys out for building him “ sub par drivers”. More proof that it’s always the clubs fault never the guy swinging it. The fact that they played different shafts and lofts apparently meant nothing to him. Lol

    good one.. most tour players of yonder paid little attention to shafts properties... etc. they thought it was swing and speed and solid contact for X distance.
    I know VJ well. Got to know him in the UK when he was a struggling pro. He's as nice as he's as intense as he's as awkward as a complex being lol. Good guy if you are on his right side.

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  • c7015c7015 Members Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I thought the Callaway CEO had a good response and pointed out a few flaws of the current process one I had not considered was that the testing location is not secure or controlled in the way it should be. So if were going to test (I think we should) we have to test correctly.

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/callaway-ceo-on-failed-driver-test-if-anybody-deserves-blame-its-us-but-in-all-fairness-im-not-sure-we-did-anything-wrong#targetText=Callaway CEO and President Chip,Open Championship at Royal Portrush.

    "That’s probably wrong and needs to be addressed. Part of the issue is the testing location, a tent on the back of the range, where folks not directly involved in the specific testing can walk in-and-out too freely."

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @c7015 said:
    I thought the Callaway CEO had a good response and pointed out a few flaws of the current process one I had not considered was that the testing location is not secure or controlled in the way it should be. So if were going to test (I think we should) we have to test correctly.

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/callaway-ceo-on-failed-driver-test-if-anybody-deserves-blame-its-us-but-in-all-fairness-im-not-sure-we-did-anything-wrong#targetText=Callaway CEO and President Chip,Open Championship at Royal Portrush.

    "That’s probably wrong and needs to be addressed. Part of the issue is the testing location, a tent on the back of the range, where folks not directly involved in the specific testing can walk in-and-out too freely."

    Yep. CEO is spot on. They did their job. It points to a glaringly large variance in the test itself , and the “ that’s his prerogative “ comment about the ceos opinion on the testing location and lack of consistency in terms of confidentiality, shows the lax or purposeful obtuse attitude of the r and a tester.

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  • munichopmunichop Members Posts: 270 ✭✭✭✭

    If the tour wants to make this a thing they should have a pre game show televised every week with the testing recorded. Then show a highlight package of the best and worst drivers. This website could be their sponsor.

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @munichop said:
    If the tour wants to make this a thing they should have a pre game show televised every week with the testing recorded. Then show a highlight package of the best and worst drivers. This website could be their sponsor.

    Could do it like boxing. Have each guy get in the other guys face and do some driver flexing to try to intimidate the guy with the lower CT score. lol. May as well go ahead and sell the whole game off at once. Get it over with.

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  • BIG STUBIG STU Members Posts: 11,698 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @BottleCap said:

    @BIG STU said:
    From what they said on the GC ( take that at face value LOL) the drivers were picked at random and in this case it was the R&A not the USGA that did the surprise test. Now Xander's name was the only name that came out ( not sure why) but it was stated several other drivers were tested and some of them were deemed non-conforming others were conforming. From what I just saw the PGA Tour was going to test and rate the following
    Red--- The driver does not conform
    Yellow ---- barely conforms but may be non conforming after being hit some more ( huuh? scratches head)
    Green--- conforming
    The GC announcers were even confused by all of this as I was

    I can nip it all in the bud make them go back to hitting persimmon drivers no issues there. Heck I have quite a few I can part with and Links Soul a forum sponsor here still makes and sells them as Louisville golf does

    Why would anyone think that the USGA would be testing clubs at the British Open?

    Like Richard Nixon "I wanted to make myself perfectly clear" Being the biggest USGA detractor on this and other boards I wanted to be clear that's all

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  • mcputtermcputter Members Posts: 983 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2019 9:04pm #24

    @JD3 said:
    Cant imagine anyone continuing to use a "yellow" light driver.

    Based on my understanding of the proposed testing, and current manufacturing processes (or at least the heads that are selected for Tour use), virtually every current driver on Tour will test in the 'Yellow' range, i.e. over 239 CT but less than 258. Am I wrong?
    I'd suggest an "Orange" category for about 250-257 range or just go Pass/Fail but let the player know the number so he's aware when it's getting borderline.

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  • BottleCapBottleCap Members Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @c7015 said:
    I thought the Callaway CEO had a good response and pointed out a few flaws of the current process one I had not considered was that the testing location is not secure or controlled in the way it should be. So if were going to test (I think we should) we have to test correctly.

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/callaway-ceo-on-failed-driver-test-if-anybody-deserves-blame-its-us-but-in-all-fairness-im-not-sure-we-did-anything-wrong#targetText=Callaway CEO and President Chip,Open Championship at Royal Portrush.

    "That’s probably wrong and needs to be addressed. Part of the issue is the testing location, a tent on the back of the range, where folks not directly involved in the specific testing can walk in-and-out too freely."

    Yep. CEO is spot on. They did their job. It points to a glaringly large variance in the test itself , and the “ that’s his prerogative “ comment about the ceos opinion on the testing location and lack of consistency in terms of confidentiality, shows the lax or purposeful obtuse attitude of the r and a tester.

    Why does it have to be confidential? If a driver fails it gets replaced, what's the big deal?

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @BottleCap said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @c7015 said:
    I thought the Callaway CEO had a good response and pointed out a few flaws of the current process one I had not considered was that the testing location is not secure or controlled in the way it should be. So if were going to test (I think we should) we have to test correctly.

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/callaway-ceo-on-failed-driver-test-if-anybody-deserves-blame-its-us-but-in-all-fairness-im-not-sure-we-did-anything-wrong#targetText=Callaway CEO and President Chip,Open Championship at Royal Portrush.

    "That’s probably wrong and needs to be addressed. Part of the issue is the testing location, a tent on the back of the range, where folks not directly involved in the specific testing can walk in-and-out too freely."

    Yep. CEO is spot on. They did their job. It points to a glaringly large variance in the test itself , and the “ that’s his prerogative “ comment about the ceos opinion on the testing location and lack of consistency in terms of confidentiality, shows the lax or purposeful obtuse attitude of the r and a tester.

    Why does it have to be confidential? If a driver fails it gets replaced, what's the big deal?

    It doesn’t. If they want to post EVERY failed head and the players name good. But to have many failures in one event and just let one guy take all the heat. Isn’t right. Consistency is all that has been asked for. One way or another.

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  • BottleCapBottleCap Members Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @BottleCap said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @c7015 said:
    I thought the Callaway CEO had a good response and pointed out a few flaws of the current process one I had not considered was that the testing location is not secure or controlled in the way it should be. So if were going to test (I think we should) we have to test correctly.

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/callaway-ceo-on-failed-driver-test-if-anybody-deserves-blame-its-us-but-in-all-fairness-im-not-sure-we-did-anything-wrong#targetText=Callaway CEO and President Chip,Open Championship at Royal Portrush.

    "That’s probably wrong and needs to be addressed. Part of the issue is the testing location, a tent on the back of the range, where folks not directly involved in the specific testing can walk in-and-out too freely."

    Yep. CEO is spot on. They did their job. It points to a glaringly large variance in the test itself , and the “ that’s his prerogative “ comment about the ceos opinion on the testing location and lack of consistency in terms of confidentiality, shows the lax or purposeful obtuse attitude of the r and a tester.

    Why does it have to be confidential? If a driver fails it gets replaced, what's the big deal?

    It doesn’t. If they want to post EVERY failed head and the players name good. But to have many failures in one event and just let one guy take all the heat. Isn’t right. Consistency is all that has been asked for. One way or another.

    He outted himself then he goes on the range and tried to out others, but the beat writers didn’t want in on it. If he was man, he would have just shut up, but he was so insecure he fucked himself, it’s a personal issue

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  • 596596 Lakeland, FLMembers Posts: 3,703 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree that there should be random testing. It's been used in lots of other sports for years. In triathlons they inspect every single bike as you enter transition. Some places your bike is marked as you enter and passed or you don't race. Some races had spot checks. If you were in the top tier your bike had best pass, cause you were getting inspected in a random inspection!

    Imagine the terror of playing a 4 day golf tournament and being disqualified on Sunday afternoon, forfieting your pay check as you failed the equipment test! I think they are being very nice doing it before the tournament and allowing you to replace the equipment before you start.

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @BottleCap said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @BottleCap said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @c7015 said:
    I thought the Callaway CEO had a good response and pointed out a few flaws of the current process one I had not considered was that the testing location is not secure or controlled in the way it should be. So if were going to test (I think we should) we have to test correctly.

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/callaway-ceo-on-failed-driver-test-if-anybody-deserves-blame-its-us-but-in-all-fairness-im-not-sure-we-did-anything-wrong#targetText=Callaway CEO and President Chip,Open Championship at Royal Portrush.

    "That’s probably wrong and needs to be addressed. Part of the issue is the testing location, a tent on the back of the range, where folks not directly involved in the specific testing can walk in-and-out too freely."

    Yep. CEO is spot on. They did their job. It points to a glaringly large variance in the test itself , and the “ that’s his prerogative “ comment about the ceos opinion on the testing location and lack of consistency in terms of confidentiality, shows the lax or purposeful obtuse attitude of the r and a tester.

    Why does it have to be confidential? If a driver fails it gets replaced, what's the big deal?

    It doesn’t. If they want to post EVERY failed head and the players name good. But to have many failures in one event and just let one guy take all the heat. Isn’t right. Consistency is all that has been asked for. One way or another.

    He outted himself then he goes on the range and tried to out others, but the beat writers didn’t want in on it. If he was man, he would have just shut up, but he was so insecure he fucked himself, it’s a personal issue

    Lol. I have no idea where that version comes from.

    The other players etc were throwing it at him in forms of Jokes about him cheating. He didn’t walk around tell them all , then have them joke at him on the next lap. Somebody leaked it , and then he faced the ridicule.

    What about callaway. Did they out themselves too , then cry ? Come on. That makes zero sense. We only hear of the other failures after callaway says that they weren’t the only ones who failed.

    Bottom line is that they need to just announce the failures. Most of not all other sports announce breaches of rule.

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  • grm24grm24 Western PAMembers Posts: 3,581 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    **> I am a huge Vijay fan...

    But he once called in during the telecast after his round was over and made a formal complaint about Phil’s driver.
    He said Phil was outhitting him by 30 yards.
    Phil’s driver was tested and found to be not only conforming but actually well below the COR requirements..**

    Where and when did this actually happen? If it did take place it would have been talked about forever. Are you confusing stories? Reason I ask is that VJs buddy Tom Pernice after watching Tiger at Doral bomb it asked to have Tigers driver tested and it came back okay. I referenced it earlier in this thread. In case you missed it. Seems like you got your story/players crossed.

    https://www.golfchannel.com/article/associated-press/pga-tour-tests-tigers-driver

    Woods gave the club to caddie Steve Williams, who took it to the tournament office to be tested. The limit for coefficient of restitution -- otherwise known as springlike effect for those without a degree in physics -- is 0.83. The results don't show a number, only whether the driver passed or failed.

    'It wasn't even close,' Woods said. 'I'm well below the speed limit. The hotter it gets, the more I cut it. I can't control the ball if it's coming off the face that fast.'

    _Turns out it was Tom Pernice Jr., and the source of his concern was some drives Woods hit in the final round at Doral during that great duel against Mickelson. One drive, on the par-5 eighth hole, was 44 yards longer than Lefty's.

    Pernice was not at Doral. Woods says the last time they played together was in 2003.

    'I was watching on TV and Phil hits it out there pretty good,' Pernice said Tuesday. 'I knew it was a new driver, and he was hitting it 25 yards past Phil. Nothing against Tiger. I was just surprised how far he was hitting it past Phil.

    The development gets even more interesting considering that Pernice is best friends with Vijay Singh and has been critical of Woods over the last six months -- the best zinger coming at Pebble Beach when Pernice said Woods wasn't doing enough for tour sponsors.
    _

  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    This will be about as effective as NASCAR instituting steering wheel testing.

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