What are the odds a 17 HC shoots 5 over in a tournament?

[Under2hours]

Welcome to sandbagging and await those who will claim it is sour grapes........

[nsxguy]

Welcome to sandbagging and await those who will claim it is sour grapes........

 

Back again to your favorite topic, eh ?

 

Like you suggested, guess we'll have to put up with it until YOU do it,,,,,,, :cheesy:

[Imp]

I ended last year as a 10.0, but over the winter and spring worked on a swing change that I stuggled with all summer... and my handicap went up to a 12.9 oh so gradually (I'd have some good rounds and some bad rounds... hadn't been as consistent as last year). Lightning stuck this weekend.

 

It was the annual weekend trip this weekend to NH with 7 other guys that I play with all year. In other words, they are very, very familiar with my game. Playing 3 courses, Lochmere, Owls Nest, and Canterbury Woods. 1st round at Lochmere, a course I've never played before, my CH being 14. I shot a 4 over 76 with 3 birds on the front to go 35/41. We played the front 9 again later in the afternoon and I shot a 38. So here we have a case of myself breaking the odds as a 14CH shooting 10 better. Yes, it's my best 18 hole round. Ever. (I've shot combined 9s that equal or better that, but never 18 consecutive on one course).

 

Owls nest on Saturday. I shoot an 83 (44/39) with another CH of 14. Ok, that's fine. I also had 36 putts, majority of them on the front as I adjusted to the speeds. Ugh. (Putting is the best part of my game, but I got beat up there).

 

Get to Canterbury Woods on Sunday, and I shoot another 4 over 76 (39/37) with 1 bird on the front and 3 on the back. Are you freaking kidding me? (Is what everyone else was saying)

 

So here we have a guy, myself, records everything in GHIN, plays every round to his best (I'm kinda competitive... ok.. not "kinda"... QUITE) and yeah, has one of those weekends that would have me run-off if I were in one of them Golf Am tours as "one of them S words".

 

I have lots of golf to play in the upcoming weeks (league championships, invitationals, and capped off in Hilton Head for 2 weeks) and my game is starting to feel good. Confidence is high that I'll hit my goal this year of being a single digit (my goal after finishing so close last year). But the numbers and handicap has slid because of just some consistently bad rounds this year as it was just... ugh.

 

So... does that make me a sandbagger?

 

--kC

(GHIN has me trending 11.0L) :lol:

[Newby]

If ever you beat me, you are a sandbagger.

[Under2hours]

I ended last year as a 10.0, but over the winter and spring worked on a swing change that I stuggled with all summer... and my handicap went up to a 12.9 oh so gradually (I'd have some good rounds and some bad rounds... hadn't been as consistent as last year). Lightning stuck this weekend.

 

It was the annual weekend trip this weekend to NH with 7 other guys that I play with all year. In other words, they are very, very familiar with my game. Playing 3 courses, Lochmere, Owls Nest, and Canterbury Woods. 1st round at Lochmere, a course I've never played before, my CH being 14. I shot a 4 over 76 with 3 birds on the front to go 35/41. We played the front 9 again later in the afternoon and I shot a 38. So here we have a case of myself breaking the odds as a 14CH shooting 10 better. Yes, it's my best 18 hole round. Ever. (I've shot combined 9s that equal or better that, but never 18 consecutive on one course).

 

Owls nest on Saturday. I shoot an 83 (44/39) with another CH of 14. Ok, that's fine. I also had 36 putts, majority of them on the front as I adjusted to the speeds. Ugh. (Putting is the best part of my game, but I got beat up there).

 

Get to Canterbury Woods on Sunday, and I shoot another 4 over 76 (39/37) with 1 bird on the front and 3 on the back. Are you freaking kidding me? (Is what everyone else was saying)

 

So here we have a guy, myself, records everything in GHIN, plays every round to his best (I'm kinda competitive... ok.. not "kinda"... QUITE) and yeah, has one of those weekends that would have me run-off if I were in one of them Golf Am tours as "one of them S words".

 

I have lots of golf to play in the upcoming weeks (league championships, invitationals, and capped off in Hilton Head for 2 weeks) and my game is starting to feel good. Confidence is high that I'll hit my goal this year of being a single digit (my goal after finishing so close last year). But the numbers and handicap has slid because of just some consistently bad rounds this year as it was just... ugh.

 

So... does that make me a sandbagger?

 

--kC

(GHIN has me trending 11.0L) :lol:

 

Again big difference is you were a 10...... The OP stated a 17 shot +5, which is a huge differential. And you were playing with friends all of whom know your game and skills. Do that over 3 days in a tournament and yes you'll be accused of sandbagging.

[Imp]

I shot 76, 83, 76 over those three days... as a 14. Lots of people forget that whole Course Handicap thing in Tourneys. You could have a lower GHIN Index, but have a higher CH.

 

I do agree 17 shooting +5 is rare. But not impossible. Much like my 14 (three strokes lower than the 17) shooting +4 (one stroke lower than the plus 5).... TWICE on the same weekend. ;)

 

--kC

[nsxguy]

I ended last year as a 10.0, but over the winter and spring worked on a swing change that I stuggled with all summer... and my handicap went up to a 12.9 oh so gradually (I'd have some good rounds and some bad rounds... hadn't been as consistent as last year). Lightning stuck this weekend.

 

It was the annual weekend trip this weekend to NH with 7 other guys that I play with all year. In other words, they are very, very familiar with my game. Playing 3 courses, Lochmere, Owls Nest, and Canterbury Woods. 1st round at Lochmere, a course I've never played before, my CH being 14. I shot a 4 over 76 with 3 birds on the front to go 35/41. We played the front 9 again later in the afternoon and I shot a 38. So here we have a case of myself breaking the odds as a 14CH shooting 10 better. Yes, it's my best 18 hole round. Ever. (I've shot combined 9s that equal or better that, but never 18 consecutive on one course).

 

Owls nest on Saturday. I shoot an 83 (44/39) with another CH of 14. Ok, that's fine. I also had 36 putts, majority of them on the front as I adjusted to the speeds. Ugh. (Putting is the best part of my game, but I got beat up there).

 

Get to Canterbury Woods on Sunday, and I shoot another 4 over 76 (39/37) with 1 bird on the front and 3 on the back. Are you freaking kidding me? (Is what everyone else was saying)

 

So here we have a guy, myself, records everything in GHIN, plays every round to his best (I'm kinda competitive... ok.. not "kinda"... QUITE) and yeah, has one of those weekends that would have me run-off if I were in one of them Golf Am tours as "one of them S words".

 

I have lots of golf to play in the upcoming weeks (league championships, invitationals, and capped off in Hilton Head for 2 weeks) and my game is starting to feel good. Confidence is high that I'll hit my goal this year of being a single digit (my goal after finishing so close last year). But the numbers and handicap has slid because of just some consistently bad rounds this year as it was just... ugh.

 

So... does that make me a sandbagger?

 

--kC

(GHIN has me trending 11.0L) :lol:

 

Again big difference is you were a 10...... The OP stated a 17 shot +5, which is a huge differential. And you were playing with friends all of whom know your game and skills. Do that over 3 days in a tournament and yes you'll be accused of sandbagging.

 

Yes, do that over 3 days in a tournament and yes, he will be accused of sandbagging.

 

But no, he was a 12.9, almost 3 shots higher than you "quote".

 

Further, the OP, AFAIR, never clarified about the course rating OR slope of the 17 shooting +5. Perhaps it was an easy course in which case his (apparent) -12 for the round actually wasn't a differential of -12; might've been "only" -9 or -10, no doubt considerably shorter odds. Then again, maybe the CR was 2 shots OVER par and the slope was 140 - doubtful but,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Imp doesn't mention course rating although if his CH was 14, the slope was (at least) in the 120s. So CR was probably somewhere around even par ? Who knows ? Imp probably does. So his +4 with a CH of 14 MAY have been much "worse" (or better if you prefer) than the OP.

 

And had his (Imp's) 2 rounds not had a lesser one in between, virtually impossible (according to the charts http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html )

 

Then again, the charts are specifically quoted as being "tournament" rounds, not casual ones, so,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Break81]

I ended last year as a 10.0, but over the winter and spring worked on a swing change that I stuggled with all summer... and my handicap went up to a 12.9 oh so gradually (I'd have some good rounds and some bad rounds... hadn't been as consistent as last year). Lightning stuck this weekend.

 

It was the annual weekend trip this weekend to NH with 7 other guys that I play with all year. In other words, they are very, very familiar with my game. Playing 3 courses, Lochmere, Owls Nest, and Canterbury Woods. 1st round at Lochmere, a course I've never played before, my CH being 14. I shot a 4 over 76 with 3 birds on the front to go 35/41. We played the front 9 again later in the afternoon and I shot a 38. So here we have a case of myself breaking the odds as a 14CH shooting 10 better. Yes, it's my best 18 hole round. Ever. (I've shot combined 9s that equal or better that, but never 18 consecutive on one course).

 

Owls nest on Saturday. I shoot an 83 (44/39) with another CH of 14. Ok, that's fine. I also had 36 putts, majority of them on the front as I adjusted to the speeds. Ugh. (Putting is the best part of my game, but I got beat up there).

 

Get to Canterbury Woods on Sunday, and I shoot another 4 over 76 (39/37) with 1 bird on the front and 3 on the back. Are you freaking kidding me? (Is what everyone else was saying)

 

So here we have a guy, myself, records everything in GHIN, plays every round to his best (I'm kinda competitive... ok.. not "kinda"... QUITE) and yeah, has one of those weekends that would have me run-off if I were in one of them Golf Am tours as "one of them S words".

 

I have lots of golf to play in the upcoming weeks (league championships, invitationals, and capped off in Hilton Head for 2 weeks) and my game is starting to feel good. Confidence is high that I'll hit my goal this year of being a single digit (my goal after finishing so close last year). But the numbers and handicap has slid because of just some consistently bad rounds this year as it was just... ugh.

 

So... does that make me a sandbagger?

 

--kC

(GHIN has me trending 11.0L) :lol:

 

If you pull that crap again next year, yes you are labelled for life!! Seriously though any golfer can improve and for a short period play much better than their index would suggest. Your index then drops and unless you through a bunch of bad rounds in the mix your going to really have to play well do win anything.

 

I had a few good rounds late 2016 and early 2017. Dropped my index by about 3 and then regressed back. For 6 months I have a very hard time even sniffing my handicap. Now I am trending down again slowly but still need a flawless round to even finish top 4.

[Imp]

If you pull that crap again next year, yes you are labelled for life!! Seriously though any golfer can improve and for a short period play much better than their index would suggest. Your index then drops and unless you through a bunch of bad rounds in the mix your going to really have to play well do win anything.

 

I had a few good rounds late 2016 and early 2017. Dropped my index by about 3 and then regressed back. For 6 months I have a very hard time even sniffing my handicap. Now I am trending down again slowly but still need a flawless round to even finish top 4.

Exactly. It was crazy. (Slopes were 125, 132, 117, in that order of scoring/play). So, not too pretty bad difficulty wise, but higher than 113.

 

Oh, I also left out the bit about the Monday before... I got on as a single on Bethpage Black on my way to Philly for work. Played from the blues/middle tees (145 slope!!!) and my goal was not to be over 100. I was ecstatic when I added up my card and it was an 88 (as 43/45). And I think I was still riding high on that for the weekend. ;) (And it was also there that I finally put the swing together. I had to constantly chip out of any rough I was in and had a LOT of 3 putts.)

 

--kC

[nitram]

To answer the OP's original question: About the same chance as an 80 year-old man knocking up his 35 year-old trophy wife.

[JPW75]

I took 3rd place in a tourney while overseas in a small golf club. Mostly old dudes. We played every weekend together with different pairings so they all knew I was a high capper, but they were still upset.

 

Even worse, I hit a hole in one in that round on the closest to the pin hole. Pretty much had the best round I've ever played...

 

Man I remember those old guys were so pissed. I got called everything under the sun that day. Was a big turn off when I was feeling so great about the round that I had.

 

They took my scores every week and calculated my HCP...I had no idea what my HCP was, nor did I really care. I was just having fun playing golf.

[TwistedSister]

At one point about 6 years ago my course handicap was a 6. One day I shot 66 -6. never have been close to it since. I post ALL score ESC'd and have signed scorecards. How does that rank?

[Londoner]

We have a guy that plays in our Thursday morning 55+ league, that's a rampant bagger. EVERYONE knows about it. I look at his scores every week; Mon-Wed 91, 95, 98. Then magically on Thursdays 79, 80, 81. He's old as dirt and did well when he was working so it's not about money, the dude is just a co**.

 

I don't know what his actual index is off the top of my head but it's much higher than it should be. Does it piss all of us Pro staff off? Yes! But can we really do anything about it. Nope.

Cant you ďo him on standard of play? Is that not an option any more. Used to be rule 19 i think.

[ruca]

I ended last year as a 10.0, but over the winter and spring worked on a swing change that I stuggled with all summer... and my handicap went up to a 12.9 oh so gradually (I'd have some good rounds and some bad rounds... hadn't been as consistent as last year). Lightning stuck this weekend.

 

It was the annual weekend trip this weekend to NH with 7 other guys that I play with all year. In other words, they are very, very familiar with my game. Playing 3 courses, Lochmere, Owls Nest, and Canterbury Woods. 1st round at Lochmere, a course I've never played before, my CH being 14. I shot a 4 over 76 with 3 birds on the front to go 35/41. We played the front 9 again later in the afternoon and I shot a 38. So here we have a case of myself breaking the odds as a 14CH shooting 10 better. Yes, it's my best 18 hole round. Ever. (I've shot combined 9s that equal or better that, but never 18 consecutive on one course).

 

Owls nest on Saturday. I shoot an 83 (44/39) with another CH of 14. Ok, that's fine. I also had 36 putts, majority of them on the front as I adjusted to the speeds. Ugh. (Putting is the best part of my game, but I got beat up there).

 

Get to Canterbury Woods on Sunday, and I shoot another 4 over 76 (39/37) with 1 bird on the front and 3 on the back. Are you freaking kidding me? (Is what everyone else was saying)

 

So here we have a guy, myself, records everything in GHIN, plays every round to his best (I'm kinda competitive... ok.. not "kinda"... QUITE) and yeah, has one of those weekends that would have me run-off if I were in one of them Golf Am tours as "one of them S words".

 

I have lots of golf to play in the upcoming weeks (league championships, invitationals, and capped off in Hilton Head for 2 weeks) and my game is starting to feel good. Confidence is high that I'll hit my goal this year of being a single digit (my goal after finishing so close last year). But the numbers and handicap has slid because of just some consistently bad rounds this year as it was just... ugh.

 

So... does that make me a sandbagger?

 

--kC

(GHIN has me trending 11.0L) :lol:

 

6 to 12 hcps can play good golf for some holes, and when everything aligns, may go low over 18 or more

You’re no bagger, just getting rewarded for your hard work . Well done

 

But your story illustrates why some of us in the uk are worried about proposed hcp system changes

 

Under congu, assuming your first round was -10 differential ( actually probably lower for the away course adjustment), your hcp drops 10x0.2 to 10.9.

The next round (83) off 11 is in buffer, so still 10.9. Assuming the next round is -8 , you drop another 1.6 to 9.3

Then an exceptional scoring reduction applies (2 shots), you’re now 7.3- congrats!

 

If you now have 20 terrible rounds, you only go up 20x 0.1 to 9.3

In other words you never get to be a bagger, however hard you try . But ghin trending to 11- I’m afraid I don’t like it

 

 

[nsxguy]

I ended last year as a 10.0, but over the winter and spring worked on a swing change that I stuggled with all summer... and my handicap went up to a 12.9 oh so gradually (I'd have some good rounds and some bad rounds... hadn't been as consistent as last year). Lightning stuck this weekend.

 

It was the annual weekend trip this weekend to NH with 7 other guys that I play with all year. In other words, they are very, very familiar with my game. Playing 3 courses, Lochmere, Owls Nest, and Canterbury Woods. 1st round at Lochmere, a course I've never played before, my CH being 14. I shot a 4 over 76 with 3 birds on the front to go 35/41. We played the front 9 again later in the afternoon and I shot a 38. So here we have a case of myself breaking the odds as a 14CH shooting 10 better. Yes, it's my best 18 hole round. Ever. (I've shot combined 9s that equal or better that, but never 18 consecutive on one course).

 

Owls nest on Saturday. I shoot an 83 (44/39) with another CH of 14. Ok, that's fine. I also had 36 putts, majority of them on the front as I adjusted to the speeds. Ugh. (Putting is the best part of my game, but I got beat up there).

 

Get to Canterbury Woods on Sunday, and I shoot another 4 over 76 (39/37) with 1 bird on the front and 3 on the back. Are you freaking kidding me? (Is what everyone else was saying)

 

So here we have a guy, myself, records everything in GHIN, plays every round to his best (I'm kinda competitive... ok.. not "kinda"... QUITE) and yeah, has one of those weekends that would have me run-off if I were in one of them Golf Am tours as "one of them S words".

 

I have lots of golf to play in the upcoming weeks (league championships, invitationals, and capped off in Hilton Head for 2 weeks) and my game is starting to feel good. Confidence is high that I'll hit my goal this year of being a single digit (my goal after finishing so close last year). But the numbers and handicap has slid because of just some consistently bad rounds this year as it was just... ugh.

 

So... does that make me a sandbagger?

 

--kC

(GHIN has me trending 11.0L) :lol:

 

6 to 12 hcps can play good golf for some holes, and when everything aligns, may go low over 18 or more

You’re no bagger, just getting rewarded for your hard work . Well done

 

But your story illustrates why some of us in the uk are worried about proposed hcp system changes

 

Under congu, assuming your first round was -10 differential ( actually probably lower for the away course adjustment), your hcp drops 10x0.2 to 10.9.

The next round (83) off 11 is in buffer, so still 10.9. Assuming the next round is -8 , you drop another 1.6 to 9.3

Then an exceptional scoring reduction applies (2 shots), you’re now 7.3- congrats!

 

If you now have 20 terrible rounds, you only go up 20x 0.1 to 9.3

In other words you never get to be a bagger, however hard you try . But ghin trending to 11- I’m afraid I don’t like it

 

So you think, for 2 exceptional "lifetime" rounds, not even in a tournament, the guy's handicap should be slightly more than HALF of what it was to begin with ? And then, even with 20 poor rounds it should still be almost 4 shots lower than where he started ?

 

Oh, and BTW, IF those rounds had been in a tournament, under ghin, he'd have been lowered by an exceptional scoring provision as well.

 

Congu ? No thanks - I'm afraid I don't like it - I'll take ghin.

[ruca]

I ended last year as a 10.0, but over the winter and spring worked on a swing change that I stuggled with all summer... and my handicap went up to a 12.9 oh so gradually (I'd have some good rounds and some bad rounds... hadn't been as consistent as last year). Lightning stuck this weekend.

 

It was the annual weekend trip this weekend to NH with 7 other guys that I play with all year. In other words, they are very, very familiar with my game. Playing 3 courses, Lochmere, Owls Nest, and Canterbury Woods. 1st round at Lochmere, a course I've never played before, my CH being 14. I shot a 4 over 76 with 3 birds on the front to go 35/41. We played the front 9 again later in the afternoon and I shot a 38. So here we have a case of myself breaking the odds as a 14CH shooting 10 better. Yes, it's my best 18 hole round. Ever. (I've shot combined 9s that equal or better that, but never 18 consecutive on one course).

 

Owls nest on Saturday. I shoot an 83 (44/39) with another CH of 14. Ok, that's fine. I also had 36 putts, majority of them on the front as I adjusted to the speeds. Ugh. (Putting is the best part of my game, but I got beat up there).

 

Get to Canterbury Woods on Sunday, and I shoot another 4 over 76 (39/37) with 1 bird on the front and 3 on the back. Are you freaking kidding me? (Is what everyone else was saying)

 

So here we have a guy, myself, records everything in GHIN, plays every round to his best (I'm kinda competitive... ok.. not "kinda"... QUITE) and yeah, has one of those weekends that would have me run-off if I were in one of them Golf Am tours as "one of them S words".

 

I have lots of golf to play in the upcoming weeks (league championships, invitationals, and capped off in Hilton Head for 2 weeks) and my game is starting to feel good. Confidence is high that I'll hit my goal this year of being a single digit (my goal after finishing so close last year). But the numbers and handicap has slid because of just some consistently bad rounds this year as it was just... ugh.

 

So... does that make me a sandbagger?

 

--kC

(GHIN has me trending 11.0L) :lol:

 

6 to 12 hcps can play good golf for some holes, and when everything aligns, may go low over 18 or more

You’re no bagger, just getting rewarded for your hard work . Well done

 

But your story illustrates why some of us in the uk are worried about proposed hcp system changes

 

Under congu, assuming your first round was -10 differential ( actually probably lower for the away course adjustment), your hcp drops 10x0.2 to 10.9.

The next round (83) off 11 is in buffer, so still 10.9. Assuming the next round is -8 , you drop another 1.6 to 9.3

Then an exceptional scoring reduction applies (2 shots), you’re now 7.3- congrats!

 

If you now have 20 terrible rounds, you only go up 20x 0.1 to 9.3

In other words you never get to be a bagger, however hard you try . But ghin trending to 11- I’m afraid I don’t like it

 

So you think, for 2 exceptional "lifetime" rounds, not even in a tournament, the guy's handicap should be slightly more than HALF of what it was to begin with ? And then, even with 20 poor rounds it should still be almost 4 shots lower than where he started ?

 

Oh, and BTW, IF those rounds had been in a tournament, under ghin, he'd have been lowered by an exceptional scoring provision as well.

 

Congu ? No thanks - I'm afraid I don't like it - I'll take ghin.

 

They may be his best rounds to date, but I took his post to mean he has raised his playing level. He may have more good rounds to come.

He was 10, put some work in, got worse in the meantime, then had 2 great rounds. Why is hcp of 7 not about right considering his starting point of 10. If he struggles to play off 7 he’ll be back to 9 or 10 in a while, which is where he started. My point is someone who is a true bagger can’t easily manipulate the system, which is my fear with ghin

 

There seem to be a lot of posts on here moaning about baggers, which is not a problem I face. Ru saying that it’s all exaggerated and the system is fine? Because that’s not the impression I get

[nsxguy]

I ended last year as a 10.0, but over the winter and spring worked on a swing change that I stuggled with all summer... and my handicap went up to a 12.9 oh so gradually (I'd have some good rounds and some bad rounds... hadn't been as consistent as last year). Lightning stuck this weekend.

 

It was the annual weekend trip this weekend to NH with 7 other guys that I play with all year. In other words, they are very, very familiar with my game. Playing 3 courses, Lochmere, Owls Nest, and Canterbury Woods. 1st round at Lochmere, a course I've never played before, my CH being 14. I shot a 4 over 76 with 3 birds on the front to go 35/41. We played the front 9 again later in the afternoon and I shot a 38. So here we have a case of myself breaking the odds as a 14CH shooting 10 better. Yes, it's my best 18 hole round. Ever. (I've shot combined 9s that equal or better that, but never 18 consecutive on one course).

 

Owls nest on Saturday. I shoot an 83 (44/39) with another CH of 14. Ok, that's fine. I also had 36 putts, majority of them on the front as I adjusted to the speeds. Ugh. (Putting is the best part of my game, but I got beat up there).

 

Get to Canterbury Woods on Sunday, and I shoot another 4 over 76 (39/37) with 1 bird on the front and 3 on the back. Are you freaking kidding me? (Is what everyone else was saying)

 

So here we have a guy, myself, records everything in GHIN, plays every round to his best (I'm kinda competitive... ok.. not "kinda"... QUITE) and yeah, has one of those weekends that would have me run-off if I were in one of them Golf Am tours as "one of them S words".

 

I have lots of golf to play in the upcoming weeks (league championships, invitationals, and capped off in Hilton Head for 2 weeks) and my game is starting to feel good. Confidence is high that I'll hit my goal this year of being a single digit (my goal after finishing so close last year). But the numbers and handicap has slid because of just some consistently bad rounds this year as it was just... ugh.

 

So... does that make me a sandbagger?

 

--kC

(GHIN has me trending 11.0L) :lol:

 

6 to 12 hcps can play good golf for some holes, and when everything aligns, may go low over 18 or more

You’re no bagger, just getting rewarded for your hard work . Well done

 

But your story illustrates why some of us in the uk are worried about proposed hcp system changes

 

Under congu, assuming your first round was -10 differential ( actually probably lower for the away course adjustment), your hcp drops 10x0.2 to 10.9.

The next round (83) off 11 is in buffer, so still 10.9. Assuming the next round is -8 , you drop another 1.6 to 9.3

Then an exceptional scoring reduction applies (2 shots), you’re now 7.3- congrats!

 

If you now have 20 terrible rounds, you only go up 20x 0.1 to 9.3

In other words you never get to be a bagger, however hard you try . But ghin trending to 11- I’m afraid I don’t like it

 

So you think, for 2 exceptional "lifetime" rounds, not even in a tournament, the guy's handicap should be slightly more than HALF of what it was to begin with ? And then, even with 20 poor rounds it should still be almost 4 shots lower than where he started ?

 

Oh, and BTW, IF those rounds had been in a tournament, under ghin, he'd have been lowered by an exceptional scoring provision as well.

 

Congu ? No thanks - I'm afraid I don't like it - I'll take ghin.

 

They may be his best rounds to date, but I took his post to mean he has raised his playing level. He may have more good rounds to come.

He was 10, put some work in, got worse in the meantime, then had 2 great rounds. Why is hcp of 7 not about right considering his starting point of 10. If he struggles to play off 7 he’ll be back to 9 or 10 in a while, which is where he started. My point is someone who is a true bagger can’t easily manipulate the system, which is my fear with ghin

 

There seem to be a lot of posts on here moaning about baggers, which is not a problem I face. Ru saying that it’s all exaggerated and the system is fine? Because that’s not the impression I get

 

This subject goes 'round and 'round with no agreement in sight.

 

And most of the posts complaining about sandbaggers are like this one. "I can't believe this", "I can't believe that" with zero understanding of how 'cap are even calculated.

 

So "Can a 15 shoot 5 over ?" Statistics say "it happens" so the obvious answer is "Yes". Not only that it happens, but depending on the slope and course rating it may happen a thousand times or more EVERY DAY.

 

He very well may have improved to where he IS now able to play to a 7. Maybe even better. Ghin accounts for this even in casual rounds where Congu doesn't care about these rounds. Or has that changed ?

 

Congu "approves" of guys being "cut" rapidly and raised slowly. OK, fine. Ghin takes, IMO, a more gradual approach.

 

Note that tournament scores are weighed more heavily in Ghin so if those 2 great scores were tournaments, which is appears they weren't, his 'cap would be lowered more. Add to that that a Handicap Committee can adjust a player downward for faster than normal improvement - e.g. a beginner who picked up the game, plays to a 24, and then takes lessons and starts shooting 81 consistently. The Committee can adjust his person's HC downwards. For a guy who has nothing better than 88 and 90's all over their scorecards day after day and then shoots back-to-back 75s in a tournament the answer is simple, even if most Committees are loath to enforce it - DQ.

 

Net-net, when and if the ruling bodies get together on a system, be it one or the other or even a mixture of the 2 (more likely ?) it'll be well thought out, despite what those who whine about this stuff all the time think and those serious enough about the game to keep handicaps will live with it.

 

Or not - some/many/most now don't, just like some/many/most make their own Rules. :dntknw:

[ruca]

Whilst I agree with much of the above, i don’t think you can easily combine an averaging system (USGA) with an incremental one (congu/ega). The which rounds should count question is less of an issue to me. That said, a lot of casual golf is played with not necessarily trying to score your lowest on each hole eg practice rounds, holiday rounds ( often worse for wear), match play , pairs / team formats.

What is clear to me is that an incremental system ( which as you say, may lead to rapid drops and slow to go up- though congu recognises this as the weakness of the incremental system and allows for annual review adjustments), is less easily manipulated

I’m not wishing to impose that on you, I just would prefer to not have an averaging system imposed on us, where I cannot see what the protection is against cheats

[nsxguy]

Whilst I agree with much of the above, i don’t think you can easily combine an averaging system (USGA) with an incremental one (congu/ega). The which rounds should count question is less of an issue to me. That said, a lot of casual golf is played with not necessarily trying to score your lowest on each hole eg practice rounds, holiday rounds ( often worse for wear), match play , pairs / team formats.

What is clear to me is that an incremental system ( which as you say, may lead to rapid drops and slow to go up- though congu recognises this as the weakness of the incremental system and allows for annual review adjustments), is less easily manipulated

I’m not wishing to impose that on you, I just would prefer to not have an averaging system imposed on us, where I cannot see what the protection is against cheats

 

Fair enough. But I did mention reviews by Committees and some allowing for exceptional tournament scores. Also some additional 'cap reduction for people improving faster than the revisions can keep up with.

 

Guess we'll see,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[mark m]

As you may know, and whether we like it or not, a new worldwide handicap system is coming in 2020. But you may not know that the USGA Handicap System manual is typically updated every 4 years. But that changed in 2016. The current manual is good for just two years - 2016 & 2017 - which means we get a new handicap manual in a couple of months. The new handicap manual will be for 2018 & 2019 and will bridge the gap until 2020. The major change in the 2016 Manual was regarding posting scores from solo rounds. We may well see some additional incremental changes and suggestions for golf clubs so the changes in 2020 are not so dramatic. That would seem to be prudent and I expect it. I may be wrong. We shall see shortly.

[bladehunter]

no doubt theres room for improvement ... a guy whos a 14 shoots 76 76 83 on away courses isnt a 14.... Take that guy put him in match play and its near impossible for me at a 1.6 to beat him.... how does that compute as fair?

[Climb&Golf]

17 hdcps never shoot 77

 

Pretty much this. Lucky to break 90.

 

I'm a 17.2 currently. Any decent round I expect to break 90. That's about half the time. 9 out of last 20 rounds.

 

[Sean2]

We have a guy that plays in our Thursday morning 55+ league, that's a rampant bagger. EVERYONE knows about it. I look at his scores every week; Mon-Wed 91, 95, 98. Then magically on Thursdays 79, 80, 81. He's old as dirt and did well when he was working so it's not about money, the dude is just a co**.

 

I don't know what his actual index is off the top of my head but it's much higher than it should be. Does it piss all of us Pro staff off? Yes! But can we really do anything about it. Nope.

Cant you ďo him on standard of play? Is that not an option any more. Used to be rule 19 i think.

 

I am surprised he hasn't been called on it. I wouldn't want to play in a league with a sandbagger. He, or they, ruin the experience for everyone else. However, if he doesn't get called on it, he will keep doing it. Since he seems to have been doing this for a while, I can't feel sorry for the league members. They know he is doing it, he pockets the money, yet everyone seems to turn a blind eye.

 

On another note, I never got the sandbagger thing. Let's say the sandbagger wins a tournament. What does he actually get for "winning"? He knows he sandbagged. He knows he really didn't win. So what's the payoff? Glory? Bragging rights? He knows he doesn't deserve any of it. I often wondered that if these miscreants sandbag on the golf course, do they "sandbag" off of it?

[Break81]

We have a guy that plays in our Thursday morning 55+ league, that's a rampant bagger. EVERYONE knows about it. I look at his scores every week; Mon-Wed 91, 95, 98. Then magically on Thursdays 79, 80, 81. He's old as dirt and did well when he was working so it's not about money, the dude is just a co**.

 

I don't know what his actual index is off the top of my head but it's much higher than it should be. Does it piss all of us Pro staff off? Yes! But can we really do anything about it. Nope.

Cant you ďo him on standard of play? Is that not an option any more. Used to be rule 19 i think.

 

I am surprised he hasn't been called on it. I wouldn't want to play in a league with a sandbagger. He, or they, ruin the experience for everyone else. However, if he doesn't get called on it, he will keep doing it. Since he seems to have been doing this for a while, I can't feel sorry for the league members. They know he is doing it, he pockets the money, yet everyone seems to turn a blind eye.

 

On another note, I never got the sandbagger thing. Let's say the sandbagger wins a tournament. What does he actually get for "winning"? He knows he sandbagged. He knows he really didn't win. So what's the payoff? Glory? Bragging rights? He knows he doesn't deserve any of it. I often wondered that if these miscreants sandbag on the golf course, do they "sandbag" off of it?

I think most baggers are somewhat ignorant to how they bag to begin with. They play a casual round with their buddies, drink lots of beer and play stupid golf. Then in a tourney they are sober (or less drunk ) and actually play golf and percentage shots. The only way to fix these guys is hold them to their last tournament scores as their tournament Index.

 

Pretty much they see nothing wrong with playing casual in a casual round and playing serious when it counts.

[QEight]

17 hdcps never shoot 77

 

Pretty much this. Lucky to break 90.

 

I'm a 17.2 currently. Any decent round I expect to break 90. That's about half the time. 9 out of last 20 rounds.

 

 

17 should not expect that. Not sure if the low slope of the course has anything to do with expectations?

[ruca]

For the scores above ( and most of the time in general), there isn’t much difference between USGA or congu: using the bottom differential and starting index, congu / ega would have him at 16.9

 

In trying to evaluate the merits of an incremental vs averaging system, one approach is to look at how each system deals with outliers ( or extremes). Remember the winner of any large field competition in a sense is an outlying event.

 

In the case of the player who managed 2 out of 3 rounds with a -10 differential (probability approx (7000x7000)/3= 1 in about 17 million), there are at least 3 explanations; 1) luck , 2) improving player ( likely the case here), and 3) sandbagging

 

Now I don’t know how many improving ( eg juniors, newer players) golfers there are who could accomplish that, nor do I know how many cheats who could do the same, but I’m confident the likelihood is a lot higher than 1 in 17 million.

So for every golfer who achieved that feat by luck ( and thus whose hcp shouldn’t drop too much) there are many more golfers who should get a decent cut, either because they’ve actually improved, or because they cheat. Sure, the lucky golfer is a bit hard done by,but way more golfers get an appropriate cut

 

Notice that cheats are also discouraged in an incremental system because scores can only go back up by 0.1 per round

 

An honest player can occasionally also have an extended bad run. A low hcp in our group had this last year for over 3 months, and his hcp went from 2 to 4. At the time, his gross scores were higher than mine, so with ghin his hcp would have gone to about 12! He then started playing like he should, including a couple under par rounds. Under ghin his differentials would have been around -14: this is another reason for an unusual differentials, which is a quirk of the system. I remember having a similar bad run about 5 yrs ago , (went from 11 to 13, but would have been 18 under ghin ( which I feel would have been unfair) Again, an incremental system will protect against this .

 

The (older) player getting slowly worse used to be hard done by under congu, but now the annual review allows for hcp increases ( and wouldn’t be an issue if more rounds counted ( like in the US)

 

 

 

 

 

[Swisstrader98]

What are the odds of me as an 11 handi making 4 birdies in 9 holes in a stableford tournament?

 

I’ve never had more than 2 or 3 birdies in 18 prior to that day, but that day something clicked and I won the 2 day tournament.

 

Point being, ANYONE can create a bit of pixie dust on the day and only the golf G-ds know how and why it happened.

 

I certainly wish I could bottle that day and that feeling but sadly it was a fleeting moment.

 

So no, not surprised to hear about a 17 shooting 5 over. It happens.

[Under2hours]

What are the odds of me as an 11 handi making 4 birdies in 9 holes in a stableford tournament?

 

I’ve never had more than 2 or 3 birdies in 18 prior to that day, but that day something clicked and I won the 2 day tournament.

 

Point being, ANYONE can create a bit of pixie dust on the day and only the golf G-ds know how and why it happened.

 

I certainly wish I could bottle that day and that feeling but sadly it was a fleeting moment.

 

So no, not surprised to hear about a 17 shooting 5 over. It happens.

 

Yep 9 holes....... Did that too this year, don't ask about the back 9......

 

Talking to my neighbour who would be a perfect golfwrx member. He (a 6HC) plays all his events and enjoys competition. He was in the matchplay finals against the former 5HC, now a 14HC. 70km winds and neighbour plays a really solid round of 79..... Got smoked by the 14 who too shot 79 in tough conditions making up and downs no 14HC should make and birdieing 2 of the first 6 holes.

 

He then talks to the the person who lost in the semis to the 14HC. Was told he too got trounced as the 14HC shot surprise surprise a 79 as well that day. When he checked the system the 14HC put in an 86.....

 

Champions dinner over so while reported too late to do anything....

[nsxguy]

What are the odds of me as an 11 handi making 4 birdies in 9 holes in a stableford tournament?

 

I’ve never had more than 2 or 3 birdies in 18 prior to that day, but that day something clicked and I won the 2 day tournament.

 

Point being, ANYONE can create a bit of pixie dust on the day and only the golf G-ds know how and why it happened.

 

I certainly wish I could bottle that day and that feeling but sadly it was a fleeting moment.

 

So no, not surprised to hear about a 17 shooting 5 over. It happens.

 

Yep 9 holes....... Did that too this year, don't ask about the back 9......

 

Talking to my neighbour who would be a perfect golfwrx member. He (a 6HC) plays all his events and enjoys competition. He was in the matchplay finals against the former 5HC, now a 14HC. 70km winds and neighbour plays a really solid round of 79..... Got smoked by the 14 who too shot 79 in tough conditions making up and downs no 14HC should make and birdieing 2 of the first 6 holes.

 

He then talks to the the person who lost in the semis to the 14HC. Was told he too got trounced as the 14HC shot surprise surprise a 79 as well that day. When he checked the system the 14HC put in an 86.....

 

Champions dinner over so while reported too late to do anything....

 

You're not describing a sandbagger. You're describing a CHEAT. Similar but not exactly the same thing.

 

What did the guy post for the previous 79 ? If he also "made a mistake", if I was the handicap chairman he'd have been DQ'd and the championship given to the udder guy. Even IF the Champion's dinner was over.

[Shilgy]

17 hdcps never shoot 77

 

Pretty much this. Lucky to break 90.

 

I'm a 17.2 currently. Any decent round I expect to break 90. That's about half the time. 9 out of last 20 rounds.

 

 

17 should not expect that. Not sure if the low slope of the course has anything to do with expectations?

Appears to be very low course ratings. If the course is rated at 66.0 an 80 is a 14 differential and the 17 cap would shot that ten percent of the time or so.