ANA rules issue (Merged)

[Strike Force]

It's been very polarising.....

 

 

 

So I suppose Westwood remarks his ball on the SAME EXACT SPOT every time? Not a millimeter left, or a millimeter right, but the SAME EXACT SPOT......

 

No way does Lee Westwood (or anyone else) replace the ball in the EXACT same spot every time. In 18 holes I doubt Westwood does it half the time.

[DatSliceDoe]

I feel the best way to avoid this is to hole out from the fairway

 

Just make sure you don't lift, clean and replace your ball or end up near any man made objects like sprinkler heads, or take a drop from a penalty. Any of those might get you into a Tiger 2013 Masters situation.

[krtgolfing]

A complete disgrace for the LPGA!

 

Consider:

 

(1) The only reason she marked her ball was to avoid stepping on playing companion's line.

(2) It was a 1 foot putt

(3) No advantage was gained

(4) And if you are going to split hairs, how fine do you want to examine spots? Every time someone spots the ball it is physically impossible to put the ball back in exactly the same spot - within millionths of a mm! Every replaced ball is in a different spot - every one! The point is no advantage gained! A 1 foot putt, only visible on slow motion with a telephoto lens! REDICULOUS!

 

I'd guess that the player's relationship with the T V people just got more than arm's length also - they furnished the evidence.

 

If Ryu had any sense, she should have tanked the playoff. Now, her "victory" is forever tainted and she actually now must win at least another major to validate this one in my mind.

 

As Jed Clampett would say - "Pitiful, just pitiful!"

 

Texsport

 

She was not at fault for the penalty.. Ryu will be in the history books as the 2017 champion.

[Hawkeye77]

People are talking about the viewer input as if it from a person who knows nothing about golf, and/or the rules of golf. The reality is that person knows more about the rules of golf than 90% of the people k this thread. As I suspected initially, it was not some schmoe calling it in.

 

Sucks for Lexi and I feel for her, but was it a penalty or not? It would be worse in my mind if a major was won by a player who clearly broke a rule and should have been penalized. I prefer that golf be far different from other sports in that regard. No tournamnet committe wants that I'd guess.

 

Putting a rules official with every group watching every player isn't practical and then we would hear about how much slower everything is

Tough situation.

 

After a needed break . . .

 

If Suzann Pettersen beat Lexi in a tight match on Sunday, that violation was revealed during the round and LPGA did nothing about it this place would go ballistic with the "cheater" allegations and everything else.

 

For most it depends on who is goring who's ox.

 

Both the rules are fine, intent/advantage/1 foot putt have nothing to do with it at all.

 

If the tours want to put more onus on the players and officials by closing time for protests/complaints at some specified time after completion of play for each player, maybe that's the answer.

 

But they are 3-4 round tournaments, so if something like this happens in the first round and not found out until the second, be prepared for TV to run the "cheating" video over and over and probably some players (yes) questioning someone's score. If Lexi did that on purpose (only she knows) she would have gotten away with a knowing rules violation.

 

Again, a knotty problem.

 

After 3 decades nobody has seemingly come up with a solution - which makes me think that in the end, however discovered, the integrity of the game comes first even if the consequences are harsh.

 

If something better gets figured out and that is "the rule" - great.

 

What about a scenario where the winner, after video scrutiny, was discovered on Monday (or later) to have made a rules infraction during the final round Sunday? That's completely fine, and no retroactive penalty is assessed. The winner is the winner at that point and results stand. Is Sunday's round less important, as it doesn't face the same ability to scrutinize all night looking for violations?

 

Not at all. It's just that the competition has to close and be final, so that's the current difference. You get three days after to find something for a Thursday round, two days after for a Friday round, it's just the window that exists.

 

As I said, if they want a rule that closes issues at a certain point for each round then great, just will have different problems which becomes a value judgment.

[Splitter]

interesting to see how few people are faulting Lexi for the gaffe.

 

Agree. In the grand scheme of things, that'd be the simplest solution--Lexi being more careful about marking the ball. Instead, some people react by wanting to blow up the entire system.

 

When the entire system is broken, sometimes thats what you have to do.

 

A Major Sporting event was decided by:

 

1/2" (at most) that had zero effect on the score

Was only possible because she had cameras on her vs. the field

Came in from an outside agency

Was a day late

 

If the system isn't totally broken, I'd hate to see what you consider 5x5.

[Hawkeye77]

It's been very polarising.....

 

 

 

So I suppose Westwood remarks his ball on the SAME EXACT SPOT every time? Not a millimeter left, or a millimeter right, but the SAME EXACT SPOT......

 

No way does Lee Westwood (or anyone else) replace the ball in the EXACT same spot every time. In 18 holes I doubt Westwood does it half the time.

 

You follow him/video every mark and get back to us. Euros suspended a guy within the last 3 years for similar issue, just more obvious. Not saying Lexi did something intentional.

 

It's on Lexi, everyone would have liked for the issue to have come up much sooner. If the procedures/rules change - great. Until then this risk has been known to every player on every tour for 30 years or so.

[blaird]

Heres my take...

 

The ball was not in original position, the penalty was correct in being assessed. It should have been assessed at the end of the round Saturday or before she teed off Sunday.

 

I do not like the people that call in. I didnt see the coverage but did the person that called in get a different camera angle than what tv showed?? Like someone tweeted "no call in penalties should be enforced until every shot from every person is televised", which I sort of agree with and goes back to the Tiger argument that every shot he hits is televised and he is under more scrutiny than anyone else.

 

I do not like the 2 shot penalty for signing incorrect scorecard. While it is in the rules, the penalty wasnt assessed until later so why cant she add the penalty to the card and re-sign the card?? Maybe tours should start giving out cards with 4 days on them and you keep the same card everyday and finally sign for all 4 rounds once completed Sunday. If there is no call in by the time you sign your card, there can be no penalty.

 

Also, when did this become a two shot penalty?? I seem to remember Z. Johnson winning the Colonial (I think) a couple years ago. Anyways, he has two shot lead coming to 18, hits 2nd shot on green, first putt is 18 inches short, he moves his marker for his fellow player to putt, and then finishes out without moving it back. I thought he was only given a 1 shot penalty and won by one. Maybe he was 3 ahead and was given a two shotter but I thought it was just one.

[Tcann32]

She probably shouldn't have done it, so if it were called on the day of, fine. Did she do it on purpose? Only she knows, and if she did, she knows it's an infraction and really shouldn't have done it.

 

BUT, the next day? BS. Then a penalty for signing off on an incorrect score card because of a penalty she didn't know she had?? How in the world does that make any bit of logical sense?! How would she have even known?

 

If she legitimately marked in the way she did on purpose, for whatever reason, then it'd be cheating, and there's not much to say..

 

However, if golf is a game of integrity and the players are supposed to be treated as such, why is such a micro-managing style of rules enforcement allowed, or even considered? I'm very much against the fact that you can call in with rules violations. I mean, yes, it was a rules violation, but only a certain amount of the field is subject to the telecast rules warriors, and that's not fair to them vs the rest of the field.

[Hawkeye77]

Heres my take...

 

The ball was not in original position, the penalty was correct in being assessed. It should have been assessed at the end of the round Saturday or before she teed off Sunday.

 

I do not like the people that call in. I didnt see the coverage but did the person that called in get a different camera angle than what tv showed?? Like someone tweeted "no call in penalties should be enforced until every shot from every person is televised", which I sort of agree with and goes back to the Tiger argument that every shot he hits is televised and he is under more scrutiny than anyone else.

 

I do not like the 2 shot penalty for signing incorrect scorecard. While it is in the rules, the penalty wasnt assessed until later so why cant she add the penalty to the card and re-sign the card?? Maybe tours should start giving out cards with 4 days on them and you keep the same card everyday and finally sign for all 4 rounds once completed Sunday. If there is no call in by the time you sign your card, there can be no penalty.

 

Also, when did this become a two shot penalty?? I seem to remember Z. Johnson winning the Colonial (I think) a couple years ago. Anyways, he has two shot lead coming to 18, hits 2nd shot on green, first putt is 18 inches short, he moves his marker for his fellow player to putt, and then finishes out without moving it back. I thought he was only given a 1 shot penalty and won by one. Maybe he was 3 ahead and was given a two shotter but I thought it was just one.

 

Always. Zach was penalized two shots. No reason to speculate on that.

 

Rounds need to be attested to and posted each day, a four day card isn't workable or practical.

 

Just set a time limit each day on protests/claims?

 

 

[jonsnow]

The argument that nobody can replace the ball in EXACTLY the correct spot is a straw man. Rule 20-ciii states "on the putting green, the ball must be replaced as near as possible to the place where it lay but not in a hazard." You could make the case that since it's technically impossible to replace the ball in the exact spot, it is really being replaced under the "near as possible" definition every time it is marked. Lexi marked the ball & her coin wasn't visible, she replaced it & it was fully visible. That's not "as near as possible."

[Tcann32]

The tournament is for 4 days..

You almost have think of it as 1 round = a quarter ( for most games)..

 

I do agree that they should not have penalized her day later.. if it was in the same day, maybe..

 

That's the biggest beef I have with the whole situation. Imagine if the NFL took phone calls like this.

 

Imagine this headline in the paper - "Superbowl winners forced to give trophy back after phone in rules infraction discovered the next day"

 

How would that go over?

 

That'd never happen.. lol It was discovered that a certain team knowingly cheated and hardly anything happened. And that was the equivalent of a 50 yard foot wedge back into the fairway, let alone a pinky toe over the line of scrimmage or something ha.

[MarkOfTheKings]

Felt bad for Lexi. Bad break. Penalty should have been assessed in a timely fashion. Penalty was too harsh. At most 2 shot penalty

[blaird]

Heres my take...

 

The ball was not in original position, the penalty was correct in being assessed. It should have been assessed at the end of the round Saturday or before she teed off Sunday.

 

I do not like the people that call in. I didnt see the coverage but did the person that called in get a different camera angle than what tv showed?? Like someone tweeted "no call in penalties should be enforced until every shot from every person is televised", which I sort of agree with and goes back to the Tiger argument that every shot he hits is televised and he is under more scrutiny than anyone else.

 

I do not like the 2 shot penalty for signing incorrect scorecard. While it is in the rules, the penalty wasnt assessed until later so why cant she add the penalty to the card and re-sign the card?? Maybe tours should start giving out cards with 4 days on them and you keep the same card everyday and finally sign for all 4 rounds once completed Sunday. If there is no call in by the time you sign your card, there can be no penalty.

 

Also, when did this become a two shot penalty?? I seem to remember Z. Johnson winning the Colonial (I think) a couple years ago. Anyways, he has two shot lead coming to 18, hits 2nd shot on green, first putt is 18 inches short, he moves his marker for his fellow player to putt, and then finishes out without moving it back. I thought he was only given a 1 shot penalty and won by one. Maybe he was 3 ahead and was given a two shotter but I thought it was just one.

 

Always. Zach was penalized two shots. No reason to speculate on that.

 

Rounds need to be attested to and posted each day, a four day card isn't workable or practical.

 

Just set a time limit each day on protests/claims?

 

Ok, I thought Zach had been penalized one shot.

 

Rounds can be attested by the walking scorer, just have them double check with players after the round and if everything is in order with player, playing partner, and scorer the scores can post, then at the end of the 4th round have the player sign off on it and its done. I am also ok with the time limit on call ins.

[ExProGoingBack]

I feel the best way to avoid this is to hole out from the fairway

 

Just make sure you don't lift, clean and replace your ball or end up near any man made objects like sprinkler heads, or take a drop from a penalty. Any of those might get you into a Tiger 2013 Masters situation.

 

I have my caddie point out all divots, sprinkler heads etc... so when I'm teeing off I avoid them

[markheardjr]

TLDR, but to me the only thing this can be in the realm of discussion with is sports that require drug testing and changes happen WAY after the fact. YEARS in fact when someone comes out and admits to steroids way after. The others are in football I can remember. Like Deflategate. Patriots still have a ring on their hand. But cheating was caught and punished after the fact. AND IT WAS CHEATING, not accidental. Also, when a team gets wins vacated due to something like a player selling their championship prize for a tattoo. Cough Pryor OH St....cough.

 

It is obvious to me. Lexi went to mark, decided to just tap it in, because she approached the ball from the side and not the back, she just put the ball down near the coin. Gravity made her arm fall down an extra 1/2" and she marked a bit over. But did it change ANYTHING? No. Stupid rule. The ball should be returned as near as possible to the original spot but if its off by just a bit and its obviously not down intentionally, let it go. And for gods sakes, a day later tell the armchair police its too late but thanks for the heads up.

 

Such a shame she didn't just hole that eagle on 18. I can't fault the winner, she had to go out and make a birdie in a playoff. She earned that aspect of it. But she shouldn't have been in the playoff to begin with.

[Aren]

Watch in the actual video this morning. It almost looks like she kind of mismarked (not rules wise) the ball. Put it more to the side of instread of directly behind the ball. Then we she replaced it she put it down with the mark directly behind. Where it probably should have been originally.

 

Looks like a brain fart in the heat of the moment.

But you can mark however you want as long as you are not pushing down a spike mark or something similar. You can mark on the side of the ball and that is ok as long as you replace the ball where it was.

 

On second thought I read your post again and we agree. She initially marked a bit to the side-is what you are saying-and then replaced as if she had marked the way she usually does. That would be more plausible though if she had waited longer to replace. She picked up the ball and set it down half an inch or so to the side in one motion really.

 

It was weird. And to the people who think it was intentional, i have to admit when she kind of hovered the ball for a fraction of a second it looks like she's looking for a better spot to place it. And I'm in no way implying I think she did it on purpose. Just I can see how some might see it that way.

 

At the risk of being judged as political incorrect, I think she should have been DQ. I am respectfully of the opinion that a 2nd year law student will be able to argue, on circumstantial evidence alone, that she intentionally marked the ball the way she did, to gain an advantage, be that because of a real or perceived imperfection on her original line.

 

At the risk of being judged political correct, I get what the majority on here has argued as a stupid rule, e.g., the extra 2 shots for signing an incorrect card, the infringement being called in a day later via Email, armchair judges being able to call in infringements, etc. Unfortunately, rules are rules, there is no gray area. As a result, and again in my respectful opinion, the LPGA handled the situation correctly and strictly in accordance with the "existing" rules.

 

Fact of the matter is, she's a pro, as a result if which she and all other pro's are held at a higher standard when it comes to the rules, same as when I play in a regional or national amateur tournament.

 

Do I think that it was her intention to cheat? Not at all. However, for her sake I hope that she has learnt an important lesson to be more careful in future as I think she has a great future in the game.

 

 

[youraway2]

People don’t understand this is not a USGA Rules situation. It is a problem with the LPGA and the PGA Tour. They employ their own Rules Officials which are part of their Committee. They could invoke a policy that rules infractions can only be reported by players, caddies, on site spectators, or the Committee themselves. That would include all video which cannot be reported by the media in any capacity. If the media can watch it on site on TV and report and infraction, then what’s the difference from someone at home watching the same video and reporting such. I think the tours need to look into changing their policy, no need to change the Rules of Golf.

[big truck]

 

It is obvious to me. Lexi went to mark, decided to just tap it in, because she approached the ball from the side and not the back, she just put the ball down near the coin. Gravity made her arm fall down an extra 1/2" and she marked a bit over.

 

Wow. That's quite an explanation. And not entirely obvious to me.

[95124hacker]

A little off topic, but why does professional golf still require "sign & attest"? Isn't there a rules official with every group in the tournament, and if they're 100% impartial, why can't they keep score for each player? Then it's the player's responsibility to ensure the official scorer got it right on each hole. I think the whole "sign & attest" thing is so 1900's.

[disco111]

Change of venue here..........Want to thank and give a high five to Lexi, for not falling apart after being pinched in the bread basket. Took a lot of fortitude to not give up and feel sorry for herself at that particular time and place. She is a major credit to what a professional should be and acts.................. :rockon:

[Texsport]

youtaway2

 

WOW!

 

I'm gonna offer my congratulations to you, for the single most uninformed, unintelligent comment I've ever seem on this site - and that's saying something since I've been a member here for a dozen or so years!

 

So you are claiming a conspiracy to move her ball to another spot! Do you work at the LPGA?

 

Ever heard of seeing that the line on your ball was not straight at the target and wanting to straighten it? If there was something in her line that she wanted to avoid, she would have gotten behind the ball to really line it up, remarked her ball, and then precisely placed it to avoid whatever you can emagine!

 

And BTW, you are allowed to fix imperfections in the green!

 

What do you conspiracy people think she saw on a 1 foot putt?

 

Do you even play golf? Tournament golf?

 

Breaking the rules of golf? You sound like a teacher who checks roll and penalizes students if they miss one class! We see enough of that kind of crap in politics every day! I recognize the tone and desire to lecture on the "rules".

 

RIDICULOUS!

 

Texsport

[North Texas]

Watch in the actual video this morning. It almost looks like she kind of mismarked (not rules wise) the ball. Put it more to the side of instread of directly behind the ball. Then we she replaced it she put it down with the mark directly behind. Where it probably should have been originally.

 

Looks like a brain fart in the heat of the moment.

But you can mark however you want as long as you are not pushing down a spike mark or something similar. You can mark on the side of the ball and that is ok as long as you replace the ball where it was.

 

On second thought I read your post again and we agree. She initially marked a bit to the side-is what you are saying-and then replaced as if she had marked the way she usually does. That would be more plausible though if she had waited longer to replace. She picked up the ball and set it down half an inch or so to the side in one motion really.

 

It was weird. And to the people who think it was intentional, i have to admit when she kind of hovered the ball for a fraction of a second it looks like she's looking for a better spot to place it. And I'm in no way implying I think she did it on purpose. Just I can see how some might see it that way.

 

At the risk of being judged as political incorrect, I think she should have been DQ. I am respectfully of the opinion that a 2nd year law student will be able to argue, on circumstantial evidence alone, that she intentionally marked the ball the way she did, to gain an advantage, be that because of a real or perceived imperfection on her original line.

 

At the risk of being judged political correct, I get what the majority on here has argued as a stupid rule, e.g., the extra 2 shots for signing an incorrect card, the infringement being called in a day later via Email, armchair judges being able to call in infringements, etc. Unfortunately, rules are rules, there is no gray area. As a result, and again in my respectful opinion, the LPGA handled the situation correctly and strictly in accordance with the "existing" rules.

 

Fact of the matter is, she's a pro, as a result if which she and all other pro's are held at a higher standard when it comes to the rules, same as when I play in a regional or national amateur tournament.

 

Do I think that it was her intention to cheat? Not at all. However, for her sake I hope that she has learnt an important lesson to be more careful in future as I think she has a great future in the game.

 

Under what rule would you have DQ'ed her?

[bscinstnct]

It's been very polarising.....

 

 

 

[Kev-Golfnut61]

A complete disgrace for the LPGA!

 

Consider:

 

(1) The only reason she marked her ball was to avoid stepping on playing companion's line.

(2) It was a 1 foot putt

(3) No advantage was gained

(4) And if you are going to split hairs, how fine do you want to examine spots? Every time someone spots the ball it is physically impossible to put the ball back in exactly the same spot - within millionths of a mm! Every replaced ball is in a different spot - every one! The point is no advantage gained! A 1 foot putt, only visible on slow motion with a telephoto lens! REDICULOUS!

 

I'd guess that the player's relationship with the T V people just got more than arm's length also - they furnished the evidence.

 

If Ryu had any sense, she should have tanked the playoff. Now, her "victory" is forever tainted and she actually now must win at least another major to validate this one in my mind.

 

As Jed Clampett would say - "Pitiful, just pitiful!"

 

Texsport

 

Totally agree with you here. No other sport allows viewers call in to affect the outcome. Why? The phone would be blowing up constantly. Missed travel, stepped on line, holding, interference, and the list goes on and on. I believe that's why they pay officials and yes they miss and make bad calls.

 

The game is based on honesty and integrity. There was nothing malicious about what she did. Did she put the ball back exactly, yes. I won't argue that. If her playing partner(s) had an issue it should have be taken care of then. At the end of the day when the players agree upon the score that should make the round official. Not ALL players are on TV to be watched or dissected with a fine tooth comb by being not even involved in the sport.

 

Would love to see what would have happened if this was yesterday and the email was sent in. My money is on DELETE.

 

Only my opinion here, but something has to be done. I guess whoever this person is that sent the email has nothing better to do than try to sit/lay around and bring down the game of golf.

[gpe23]

That was a ridiculous call. They should know that rule is broken every time a ball is marked. She didn't intend to improve her line. She acted in the spirit of equity while the lpga did not.

[RSinSG]

BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T BULLSH*T

 

Imagine if we could phone in fouls and penalties in other sports after the fact??? The next day after the superbowl some schmuck in his parents' basement see a first down was granted when the proper advancement wasn't made. This first down lead to a TD. Now the TD is withdrawn and the trophy is handed to the other team.

 

I hope the a**hole that called in is happy with him/herself. It takes a miserable motherf*cker to do something like this.

 

If everyone in the tournament is not under the same video scrutiny then no one should be. We all know the majority of players don't make it on TV. So we accept only monitoring those who do? Again, BULLSH*T.

 

 

Come on Hotrod - don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

[legitimategolf]

The Koreans did it. Hyundai was going to cancel their sponsorship if Lexi won. All pro sports are rigged.

This post is so awful I went ahead and gave it an ironic 'like'.

[Oldboy]

After seeing the replay a few times .. I don't see how anyone can see that as anything other than her marking the ball from the side and then replacing it IN FRONT OF her mark. That's an infraction however you want to spin it. The catastrophe that followed .. well. But there's no way that isn't a penalty.

[SHIVAN]

The TV coverage needs to stop zooming in on the ball so tightly all the time. Including in the air shots of blue sky, and a singular white ball for 5 seconds, with no frame of reference to its trajectory.

[justasgood]

I think: 2 stroke penalty after the fact is justified. Lexi is presented with the now adjusted score card reflecting said penalty. Now she has a choice, accept the 2 stroke penalty based on the review and sign the adjusted card or, refuse the assessed penalty and accept an additional 2 strokes.