Third best player of all time?

[gvogel]

And I'm interested to hear more about this ... I kind of understand Nelson, with a lot of his wins coming during the wars years, but why throw Jones in here?

 

That's easy. Because Jones only won 7 professional events. Snead won 82. The GOAT discussion should be around his entire career, not four or five years.

 

From 1923 to 1930, over those 8 years Jones played in 11 National championships (US Opens and Open Championships). He won 7 of them, and finished 2nd 3 times. He wanted to win those tournaments just as badly as the guys playing for money. He was just as nervous on the first tee, and just as spent at the culmination. He also won a couple of Open tournaments in the South, against the pros. That was a hell of a run. At the time of his retirement, he was universally regarded as the best ever.

[Peanut191]

@Forged:

 

I know you're a Snead guy, but where would you rank Hogan?

 

Hope all is well with you...

Hey Goody, thanks for the thoughts and back at ya

 

I have Hogan right behind Sam in the 4th slot.

 

I realize that this is purely an emotional pick and I wouldn't even debate someone who said that Hogan was in front of Sam because if I had to, I could make that argument however I've never liked Hogan after Pete told me some of the things that he said about Sam, some of which was in the public domain and some In the locker room. For some reason it bothered Pete more than Sam, who really did look at Hogan as sort of a big Bro and he never had any animosity towards him.

 

I guess Hogan was just amazed and Pete thought a little jealous of Sam's natural ability and while Sam actually did hit till his hands bled early on in his Pro career(that's a lot of friggin balls, lol), Hogan was of the opinion that Sam just showed up, teed it up and off he went. Hogan always said that if he had Sam's swing he would've had at least 4-5 more Majors, I forget exactly the number.

 

Because of Sam's quotes about simplifying the swing("arithmetic versus trig"), many, including Hogan, thought that he was a southern bumpkin.

 

He was far far from it

 

Well, have a great weekend Bro

 

My Best,

RP

 

Richard, so now that we know where you stand on Jones, Snead and Hogan, would you put Hagen right behind Snead/Hogan, or would you put Nelson there?

[tatertot]

Jones was an Amateur and didn't face the pressures of Playin for a roof over his his young wife's head or the baby on the way-

Food on the table or the car in the garage.

 

He admitted as much after The Haig thoroughly annihilated him, 12&11-

 

Forget humiliate-

 

Forget a rough 72 holes(36 at The Haig's track and 36 at Jones')-

 

No All-Timer EVER took a beating this bad!!

 

For those that have Played for Pay you know exactly of what I speak because this is the one subject and Jones the individual that I have asked almost every single Pro that I've ever spoken to and that is, where did Jones fit in with the All-Timers and did the fact that he remained an Am, had absolutely ZERO pressure on himself other than that which was self imposed versus HAVING to Play well to pay the bills, and almost every Pro, with the exception of Jack, who I got the feeling that he was trying to say the politically correct thing versus HIS feelings, said that they felt Jones remaining an Am, while he definitely owned an era, made it easier to compete.

 

Jones admitted numerous times that The Beatdown convinced him to keep his day job.

 

What I find so amusing is for all of his apologists and fan boys, those 72 holes were a mere blip/vomit on the radar screen, yet for Jones, they were his DEFINIG moment as that was when he was seriously considering turning Pro at both Hagen's and Tommy Armour's behest and JONES has admitted that it was this massive humiliating beat down that convinced him to keep his day job and just Play for silver and crystal.

 

Regarding the era, Professional golf was in its infancy and Sam said that there were less than a handful of guys capable of Playing with Jones day in and day out.

 

Daddy's law firm was lookin really fine that Sunday evening following his humiliation.

 

Mighty Mighty fine??

 

Those of you that have actually Played For Pay know exactly of what I speak!!

 

Oh yea, my #3??

 

You Guys know exactly who he is, haha

 

This is of course just my .03 worth?

 

Stay well Gents and have a great weekend?

 

My Best?

RP

 

Awesome stuff Richard ... what year was "the humiliation", pre or post Grand Slam?

[playa]

What, no love for Gary? I am a huge fan of Seve but if the proviso is that Tiger and Jack are number 1&2, the best of the rest is Hogan and it isn't close. He stands head and shoulders above anyone else.

[Shilgy]

For those questioning Richards(forged4ever) story of Jones just try googling why did Bobby Jones never turn pro and you will have some interesting reads. Personally I think Mickelson deserves a lot of votes for #3. Stats are not as gaudy because of the era he played in of course.

[MattyO1984]

Brilliant idea for a thread...so much better than the twice yearly "worst player to win a major" thread.

 

For my vote I am torn between Hogan and Player but I if push came to shove, I would have to go for Player because of his international appeal and the time frame during which he performed. His time in the game came at the same time as Nicklaus, Palmer, Watson and Trevino. The strength and quality of Players peers was greater than those Hogan faced. That is no slight on Hogan or Snead or Nelson either, it's just that as a group, the group that Player was competing against was stronger.

[Shilgy]

Brilliant idea for a thread...so much better than the twice yearly "worst player to win a major" thread.

 

For my vote I am torn between Hogan and Player but I if push came to shove, I would have to go for Player because of his international appeal and the time frame during which he performed. His time in the game came at the same time as Nicklaus, Palmer, Watson and Trevino. The strength and quality of Players peers was greater than those Hogan faced. That is no slight on Hogan or Snead or Nelson either, it's just that as a group, the group that Player was competing against was stronger.

A little to much spread there imo. Take out Watson as he turned pro 18 years after Player. Trevino started on tour 11 years after Player. They did however overlap to be in the same conversation. The issue I have with lumping players like that is you could say Jack's peers were Hogan and Tiger. Jack famously battled with Hogan at the US Open and finished ahead of Tiger at the Masters in '98.

[dlygrisse]

Phil, easily.

Billy Casper well before Phil. Casper is one of the most over looked and under appreciated great players in PGA Tour history when it comes to discussing greats of the game.

 

The guy who laid up on Par 3s? Lol

Lol. Yeah he did it every par 3 he ever played. Lol. lol lol.

Man you are really make some brilliant points. Lol.

 

You ok, dude? You gonna have to hustle to CVS to get that blood press checked?

 

Possibly. Reading inane, childish comments does get me a bit worked up.

[Ferguson]

Sam - 3

 

Hogan - 4

Player -5

Arnie - 6

.

.

.

Phil - 23

[Bogie_Nights]

Sam - 3

 

Hogan - 4

Player -5

Arnie - 6

.

.

.

Phil - 23

 

I would put Phil in the top 10, but closer to the double digit side... He doesn't sniff top 5 unless he goes on a giant run (unlikely at this point).

[Santiago Golf]

Hagen or Jones

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

One other one to throw into the mix: Bobby Locke. OK, so not enough evidence to make him Number Three, but what might have been? Four Open Championships in 8 years, and some good finishes in the the US majors when he played.

[Roadking2003]

And I'm interested to hear more about this ... I kind of understand Nelson, with a lot of his wins coming during the wars years, but why throw Jones in here?

 

That's easy. Because Jones only won 7 professional events. Snead won 82. The GOAT discussion should be around his entire career, not four or five years.

 

From 1923 to 1930, over those 8 years Jones played in 11 National championships (US Opens and Open Championships). He won 7 of them, and finished 2nd 3 times. He wanted to win those tournaments just as badly as the guys playing for money. He was just as nervous on the first tee, and just as spent at the culmination. He also won a couple of Open tournaments in the South, against the pros. That was a hell of a run. At the time of his retirement, he was universally regarded as the best ever.

 

That may be the best eight years ever (especially five of them). But we are discussing the best career, not the best eight years.

[Dave230]

I think it's Jones but Tom Watson hasn't been mentioned much. Definitely over Phil anyway.

 

If Watson had won the Open at nearly 60, it could well have been him. Even then, it was a remarkable achievement to nearly win it. Only four players have more pro majors than him, and he's won the Open five times.

 

He won PGA Tour Player of the Year six times, behind only Tiger, three straight Vardons. And there's a lot of hypotheticals about who would have beaten who. Well Watson did beat Nicklaus, Jack at more or less his best too, who many consider to be the greatest. On more than one occasion in majors as well. That's got to be worth something.

[Roadking2003]

Sam - 3

 

Hogan - 4

Player -5

Arnie - 6

.

.

.

Phil - 23

 

1 Jack Nicklaus

2 Tiger Woods

3 Sam Snead

4 Ben Hogan

5 Arnold Palmer

6 Walter Hagen

7 Byron Nelson

8 Gary Player

9 Tom Watson

10 Phil Mickelson

11 Gene Sarazen

12 Bobby Jones

13 Lee Trevino

14 Billy Casper

15 Seve Ballesteros

16 Nick Faldo

17 Ernie Els

18 Cary Middlecoff

19 Vijay Singh

20 Greg Norman

[masamitsu]

I'm biased as I'm a Texan. I've got a close match between Hogan and Nelson.

[lenman73]

Without looking at numbers but with his majors didn't Gary player have alot of wins with his globe trotting ?

[Ferguson]

Sam - 3

 

Hogan - 4

Player -5

Arnie - 6

.

.

.

Phil - 23

 

I would put Phil in the top 10, but closer to the double digit side... He doesn't sniff top 5 unless he goes on a giant run (unlikely at this point).

 

 

 

If Phil was a righty, I would have him at 9. It's just difficult to consider any left-handed player in the top 10. They are just so different.

Maybe they need a list all to themselves.

 

Phil - 1

Bubba - 2

Weir - 3

 

That settles that, right?

[Konklifer]

Hogan

[tatertot]

Sam - 3

 

Hogan - 4

Player -5

Arnie - 6

.

.

.

Phil - 23

 

1 Jack Nicklaus

2 Tiger Woods

3 Sam Snead

4 Ben Hogan

5 Arnold Palmer

6 Walter Hagen

7 Byron Nelson

8 Gary Player

9 Tom Watson

10 Phil Mickelson

11 Gene Sarazen

12 Bobby Jones

13 Lee Trevino

14 Billy Casper

15 Seve Ballesteros

16 Nick Faldo

17 Ernie Els

18 Cary Middlecoff

19 Vijay Singh

20 Greg Norman

 

Solid list right here ... personally, I think Seve, Jones and possibly Faldo are too low. I think Seve gets in my top 10 over Phil. Jones was in my top 10, but Richard's post has me totally rethinking his place.

[tatertot]

Sam - 3

 

Hogan - 4

Player -5

Arnie - 6

.

.

.

Phil - 23

 

I would put Phil in the top 10, but closer to the double digit side... He doesn't sniff top 5 unless he goes on a giant run (unlikely at this point).

 

 

 

If Phil was a righty, I would have him at 9. It's just difficult to consider any left-handed player in the top 10. They are just so different.

Maybe they need a list all to themselves.

 

Phil - 1

Bubba - 2

Weir - 3

 

That settles that, right?

 

Might put Bob Charles over Weir.

[f5joe]

I've got Tiger at #3.

[dlygrisse]

Sam - 3

 

Hogan - 4

Player -5

Arnie - 6

.

.

.

Phil - 23

 

I would put Phil in the top 10, but closer to the double digit side... He doesn't sniff top 5 unless he goes on a giant run (unlikely at this point).

 

 

 

If Phil was a righty, I would have him at 9. It's just difficult to consider any left-handed player in the top 10. They are just so different.

Maybe they need a list all to themselves.

 

Phil - 1

Bubba - 2

Weir - 3

 

That settles that, right?

 

Bob Charles?

[ferrispgm]

So hard to pick because so many players are right there and had circumstances that shortened careers via service, accidents, and it was a different age when golf wasn't as much of a priority as it is now.

[slimeone]

How about Moe Norman?

[Shilgy]

So hard to pick because so many players are right there and had circumstances that shortened careers via service, accidents, and it was a different age when golf wasn't as much of a priority as it is now.

But if you are looking at careers that peripheral stuff does not matter. If it did more might acknowledge 14>18. So by career you certainly have a hard time arguing that Jack and Tiger are #'s 1 & 2. How much you value era played in to look at the numbers is the key for the rest of the list.

[dlygrisse]

Sam - 3

 

Hogan - 4

Player -5

Arnie - 6

.

.

.

Phil - 23

 

1 Jack Nicklaus

2 Tiger Woods

3 Sam Snead

4 Ben Hogan

5 Arnold Palmer

6 Walter Hagen

7 Byron Nelson

8 Gary Player

9 Tom Watson

10 Phil Mickelson

11 Gene Sarazen

12 Bobby Jones

13 Lee Trevino

14 Billy Casper

15 Seve Ballesteros

16 Nick Faldo

17 Ernie Els

18 Cary Middlecoff

19 Vijay Singh

20 Greg Norman

 

Solid list right here ... personally, I think Seve, Jones and possibly Faldo are too low. I think Seve gets in my top 10 over Phil. Jones was in my top 10, but Richard's post has me totally rethinking his place.

 

It's a really good list, and of course there is always room for debate on things like these. I would put Jones higher, and I would throw Harry Vardon in the list as he was the most dominant player in the history of the game when he retired. There are about 5 guys you could make a legitimate argument for #3.

 

There are several players in the history of the game that were truly special, players who were the undisputed kings of their era.

 

1. Young Tom Morris

2. Harry Vardon

3. Bobby Jones

4. Sneed/Nelson/Hogan-not sure how to rate this era?

5. Jack

6. Tiger

 

 

#3 is on this list.

[dlygrisse]

How about Moe Norman?

 

Mental tools in golf are every bit, if not more important than physical ones. Moe couldn't mentally handle playing outside of Canada. He may have been a ball striking savant, but there is little else there. I think he only competed in one major, and missed the cut, never won on the PGA, European, Austrialian, Asian or African tour.

 

Moe is about 500,000th on this list in my opinion.

[hogans71]

I've got Tiger at #3.

 

Uh oh...

 

Watch this thread take a nasty turn.. :)

[jonsnow]

Sam - 3 Hogan - 4 Player -5 Arnie - 6 . . . Phil - 23

1 Jack Nicklaus 2 Tiger Woods 3 Sam Snead 4 Ben Hogan 5 Arnold Palmer 6 Walter Hagen 7 Byron Nelson 8 Gary Player 9 Tom Watson 10 Phil Mickelson 11 Gene Sarazen 12 Bobby Jones 13 Lee Trevino 14 Billy Casper 15 Seve Ballesteros 16 Nick Faldo 17 Ernie Els 18 Cary Middlecoff 19 Vijay Singh 20 Greg Norman

 

That's a good list, but I think we all tend to skew towards players we've been able to watch. Probably even more towards the players who were in their primes when we were most into golf ourselves. For that reason, I'd probably put Tom Watson as my #3 because his record was compiled mostly during Jack's prime. If he had made that putt on #18 & won his sixth Open at age 60 with a hip replacement, I'd have him at #3 with no question.

 

Having said that, I believe Harry Vardon should be in the top 10 but I have no idea where. Nobody left alive who actually saw him play & that hurts him in these kind of rankings...