Third best player of all time?

[augustgolf]

While I'm glad to see Billy Casper mentioned here, and while I don't think he is #3 all-time, when he played, he kept up pretty well with the likes on Jack, Arnie & Gary. He was a victim of timing like Phil is/was with Tiger's timing.

 

I think this thread shows how little knowledge there is of Casper's prowess in the game.

 

What I think would be a better "ranking" would entail defining eras...like wooden-shaft era, transition from wooden shafts to steel, graphite/metal headed woods, etc.

 

For it is an impossibility to try to compare Jones with Arnie or Tiger - or, as Tiger was ramping up with metal woods, comparing him with someone like Faldo, who did transition to modern equipment, but not in his prime.

 

And, in my humble opinion, I personally do not believe that Tiger would have as many majors playing balata...again it is my opinion based on the era.

[Ferguson]

Sam - 3

 

Hogan - 4

Player -5

Arnie - 6

.

.

.

Phil - 23

 

I would put Phil in the top 10, but closer to the double digit side... He doesn't sniff top 5 unless he goes on a giant run (unlikely at this point).

 

 

 

If Phil was a righty, I would have him at 9. It's just difficult to consider any left-handed player in the top 10. They are just so different.

Maybe they need a list all to themselves.

 

Phil - 1

Bubba - 2

Weir - 3

 

That settles that, right?

 

Might put Bob Charles over Weir.

 

 

YES. My error. Bob has like 70+ wins in his career, plus he does charity work with Player and his wife.

[Forged4ever]

Thank you very much?

 

This match was "pre" Slam as I believe that it was either 1925 or '26, and his Slam year was 1930, though there are a couple of interesting side notes to the match.

 

First, Jones would challenge The Haig to a "rematch" a few weeks later, minus the fanfare and press, and though the number wasn't quite as bad as The Beatdown, Jones lost this one also, though by two. The second point is that Jones did use this defeat to work on his game and he would go on to win both the US & British Opens that year, the first time that this fear was ever accomplished.

 

Jones also made some asinine comment regarding how he would much rather Play a golfer who drive in the middle of the fairway, laced his approach onto the green and putted for a bird, of which he should make a few and when not, get easy pars, versus a Player who, ah bullshat, here's Jonesy in his own words.....

 

""I would much rather play a man who is straight down the fairway with his drive, on the green with his second, and down in two putts for his par. I can play a man like that at his own game, which is par golf. If one of us can get close to the pin with his approach, or hole a good putt, all right. He has earned something that I can understand. But when a man misses his drive, and then misses his second shot, and then wins the hole with a birdie…it gets my goat!"

 

Sounds like the typical WXRer??

 

Whatta Putz?

 

Have a great day Bro?

RP

Sounds like he would have really hated that guy that your man Snead was beat by-Paul Runyan! But it is interesting to me, and perhaps indicative about what I posted earlier about the pros versus ams of the times, how some players lose sight of the goal of the game. Get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible. Those that are not great ballstrikers tend to get looked down upon as "inferior" players. Even if their score is consistently lower than the guy hitting fairways and greens. What I meant by my comment about the pros versus ams is the pros of Jones' time were looked down upon as second class citizens, They were better players than most all of the ams but the ams had the upper crust elitist attitude about how things "should" be done.

Oh, absolutely regarding the PGA Tour being looked down upon back in the 1920-30's for sure. I used the description "traveling carnival act" and Sam said that was about it. Another aside regarding Jones, well actually his father, the Colonal, who had that whole Southern elitist "gentleman" bullshat down to a science and he looked down his nose at The Haig as a "huckster" who happened to be able to hit a golf ball and also the PGA Tour. Pete said that when Sam won his first Masters, that Bob Jones was sincerely happy for him but the ole man was pissed because he thought that Sam was a back woods hick and when someone made the comment that it was good to have "a southern boy" win the Masters(and the actual first green coat), the ole man sniped that Sam was "back woods not southern," lol. It got back to Sam and He said that Bob Jones couldn't apologize enough and as Sam didn't drink, he sent him half a friggin cow/side of beef or something as an apology gift, lmao

 

They both said that Bob Jones was the real deal and Sam said that Sir Walter was Seve + long before Seve. Apparently he could be anywhere and it didn't matter, he'd visualize his shot, put his head down and more often than not hit it.

 

It was also my opinion that the reason that Sam ALWAYS dressed to the nines, whether on the course or off, was to compensate for when he first arrived on Tour a young, naive soft spoken(yea, he actually was back then. Pete constantly was telling him to "step up and speak up," lol) kid with one pair of spikes, two pair of slacks, a grey pair and a navy pair and a grey sweater, cuz it went both blue and grey.

 

Pete thought it had more to do with growing up poor and then he looked up to Hogan(I could never understand WhyTF he did, what with the way Hogan treated him) and everyone knows how impeccable Hogan's dress was.

 

Have a nice weekend Bro?

Richard

[tatertot]

Thank you very much

 

This match was "pre" Slam as I believe that it was either 1925 or '26, and his Slam year was 1930, though there are a couple of interesting side notes to the match.

 

First, Jones would challenge The Haig to a "rematch" a few weeks later, minus the fanfare and press, and though the number wasn't quite as bad as The Beatdown, Jones lost this one also, though by two. The second point is that Jones did use this defeat to work on his game and he would go on to win both the US & British Opens that year, the first time that this fear was ever accomplished.

 

Jones also made some asinine comment regarding how he would much rather Play a golfer who drive in the middle of the fairway, laced his approach onto the green and putted for a bird, of which he should make a few and when not, get easy pars, versus a Player who, ah bullshat, here's Jonesy in his own words.....

 

""I would much rather play a man who is straight down the fairway with his drive, on the green with his second, and down in two putts for his par. I can play a man like that at his own game, which is par golf. If one of us can get close to the pin with his approach, or hole a good putt, all right. He has earned something that I can understand. But when a man misses his drive, and then misses his second shot, and then wins the hole with a birdie…it gets my goat!"

 

Sounds like the typical WXRer

 

Whatta Putz

 

Have a great day Bro

RP

Sounds like he would have really hated that guy that your man Snead was beat by-Paul Runyan! But it is interesting to me, and perhaps indicative about what I posted earlier about the pros versus ams of the times, how some players lose sight of the goal of the game. Get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible. Those that are not great ballstrikers tend to get looked down upon as "inferior" players. Even if their score is consistently lower than the guy hitting fairways and greens. What I meant by my comment about the pros versus ams is the pros of Jones' time were looked down upon as second class citizens, They were better players than most all of the ams but the ams had the upper crust elitist attitude about how things "should" be done.

Oh, absolutely regarding the PGA Tour being looked down upon back in the 1920-30's for sure. I used the description "traveling carnival act" and Sam said that was about it. Another aside regarding Jones, well actually his father, the Colonal, who had that whole Southern elitist "gentleman" bullshat down to a science and he looked down his nose at The Haig as a "huckster" who happened to be able to hit a golf ball and also the PGA Tour. Pete said that when Sam won his first Masters, that Bob Jones was sincerely happy for him but the ole man was pissed because he thought that Sam was a back woods hick and when someone made the comment that it was good to have "a southern boy" win the Masters(and the actual first green coat), the ole man sniped that Sam was "back woods not southern," lol. It got back to Sam and He said that Bob Jones couldn't apologize enough and as Sam didn't drink, he sent him half a friggin cow/side of beef or something as an apology gift, lmao

 

They both said that Bob Jones was the real deal and Sam said that Sir Walter was Seve + long before Seve. Apparently he could be anywhere and it didn't matter, he'd visualize his shot, out his head down and more often than not hit it.

 

Have a nice weekend Bro

Richard

 

Richard - did Pete ever mention anything about the relationship between Hogan and Nelson? I know they were close at the beginning, and grew apart as the years went on. I always found it odd that Hogan didn't start winning majors until Nelson more or less retired in '46.

[dlygrisse]

After reading all this and thinking about it I am going:

1. Jack-Better overall career than Tiger in my opinion.

2. Tiger-at his best, he may have been the best ever.

3. Jones-In a normal stroke play event he was the best, sure I'll give Hagen the advantage in match play, but in a US Open or Open Bobby all the way.

4. Hogan-he won the US Open 4 times when it was the most important in the world.

5. Snead-I would have put him ahead of Hogan if he could have won some US Opens, because he won over a long period of time, but he couldn't get it done when needed. 6. Hagan

7. Vardon-The best that ever played when he retired. Great ambassador for the game as well.

8. Arnie-the King

9. Player-First real world wide player. Career grand slam.

10. Nelson-Maybe the best ever for a short period of time.

11. Young Tom -I know it was a long time ago, but he was the best that ever lived when he died.

12. Watson-5 Open Championships, beat Jack head to head in majors.

13. Sarazen-Many have forgotten about him but he was really good. First career modern grand slam winner.

14. Seve-I will put him ahead of Faldo just because of what he did for Euro golf. Plus he was much more fun to watch play.

15. Phil-So close to being top 10....the US Open.

[Man_O_War]

1. Seve

2. Jack

3. Hm...gotta be Tiger, I guess. (Who else would it be? Duh.)

 

seriously? seriously :

 

1 Tiger

2 Tiger

3 Tiger

 

;)

[tatertot]

After reading all this and thinking about it I am going:

1. Jack-Better overall career than Tiger in my opinion.

2. Tiger-at his best, he may have been the best ever.

3. Jones-In a normal stroke play event he was the best, sure I'll give Hagen the advantage in match play, but in a US Open or Open Bobby all the way.

4. Hogan-he won the US Open 4 times when it was the most important in the world.

5. Snead-I would have put him ahead of Hogan if he could have won some US Opens, because he won over a long period of time, but he couldn't get it done when needed. 6. Hagan

7. Vardon-The best that ever played when he retired. Great ambassador for the game as well.

8. Arnie-the King

9. Player-First real world wide player. Career grand slam.

10. Nelson-Maybe the best ever for a short period of time.

11. Young Tom -I know it was a long time ago, but he was the best that ever lived when he died.

12. Watson-5 Open Championships, beat Jack head to head in majors.

13. Sarazen-Many have forgotten about him but he was really good. First career modern grand slam winner.

14. Seve-I will put him ahead of Faldo just because of what he did for Euro golf. Plus he was much more fun to watch play.

15. Phil-So close to being top 10....the US Open.

 

You could discuss this list all day, but you couldn't argue with any of those selections.

[dlygrisse]

1. Seve

2. Jack

3. Hm...gotta be Tiger, I guess. (Who else would it be? Duh.)

 

seriously? seriously :

 

1 Tiger-Butch

2 Tiger-Haney

3 Tiger-Amateur swing

100 Tiger-Foley

 

;)

I fixed that for ya.... :taunt:

[Hankshank]

It's hard to judge Bobby Jones, since it was such a long time ago. But just watching the old swing clips on youtube, his swing seemed more natural than those of Tiger and Jack. Talent is a hard word but I guess with the dedication and determination of Tiger and Jack, and the work regimen of Hogan he might have won as much as anyone else. But, a gentleman with other options. Kind of like the offspring of Scott McNealy.

My heart says Bobby, but I cannot really say. What talks against him in pure golf talent terms? Was he a lousy putter?

"The real way to enjoy playing golf is to take pleasure not in the score, but in the execution of strokes."

 

And... Young Tom Morris?

[Petunia Sprinkle]

1. Seve

2. Jack

3. Hm...gotta be Tiger, I guess. (Who else would it be? Duh.)

 

seriously? seriously :

 

1 Tiger

2 Tiger

3 Tiger

 

;)

 

He's probably looking for something new to 'tear up'. There's hope for you, sweetcheeks.

[rgk5]

Hogan based on events played to win ratio.

[lowheel]

What, no love for Gary? I am a huge fan of Seve but if the proviso is that Tiger and Jack are number 1&2, the best of the rest is Hogan and it isn't close. He stands head and shoulders above anyone else.

 

He definitely had Jack/Tiger dominant seasons. From 46-53 untouchable. If not for the war,injury and the pga being a matchplay event he easily gets to 15+ majors no question in my mind. I truly believe he wins a calendar slam if not for that

[PuttingIsNotGolf]

Jack or Tiger

[Golfingfanatic]

My heart says Seve - My head says Snead/Hogan

[Finbarr Saunders]

It goes without saying that jack is the GOAT and then its a coin flip between tiger and Player

[Finbarr Saunders]

My heart says Seve - My head says Snead/Hogan

 

 

Seve done more for golf than any other golfer in the history of the game

[Roadking2003]

 

I don't think that you can rate Walter Hagen (as much as I admire his record) higher than Bobby Jones.

 

From 1920 to 1930, they both played in the Open Championship and the US Open 14 times. Hagen only finished higher than Jones in 3 of those: 1921 in the Open Championship when Jones tore up his card at St Andrews, 1921 in the US Open when Walter finished T2 and Jones finished T5, and 1927 in the US Open when Walter finished 6th and Jones T11. That means that Jones beat Walter in those tournaments 11 times, in a span when he won 7 of them. Walter won 4 Open Championships over that span, but Jones was not in the field.

 

In either 1926 or 1929, Bobby Cruikshank and Walter Hagen were watching Jones play the final hole in a US Open victory. Cruikshank turned to Hagen, and in admiration of Jones game, said, "Walter, I'm going to turn amateur." Not missing a beat, Walter quipped, "You're not good enough."

 

Jones: Seven pro wins, 13 majors.

 

Hagen: 44 pro wins, 11 majors.

 

IMHO, Hagen's career was much better than Jones.

[Forged4ever]

Thank you very much��

 

This match was "pre" Slam as I believe that it was either 1925 or '26, and his Slam year was 1930, though there are a couple of interesting side notes to the match.

 

First, Jones would challenge The Haig to a "rematch" a few weeks later, minus the fanfare and press, and though the number wasn't quite as bad as The Beatdown, Jones lost this one also, though by two. The second point is that Jones did use this defeat to work on his game and he would go on to win both the US & British Opens that year, the first time that this fear was ever accomplished.

 

Jones also made some asinine comment regarding how he would much rather Play a golfer who drive in the middle of the fairway, laced his approach onto the green and putted for a bird, of which he should make a few and when not, get easy pars, versus a Player who, ah bullshat, here's Jonesy in his own words.....

 

""I would much rather play a man who is straight down the fairway with his drive, on the green with his second, and down in two putts for his par. I can play a man like that at his own game, which is par golf. If one of us can get close to the pin with his approach, or hole a good putt, all right. He has earned something that I can understand. But when a man misses his drive, and then misses his second shot, and then wins the hole with a birdie…it gets my goat!"

 

Sounds like the typical WXRer??

 

Whatta Putz?

 

Have a great day Bro?

RP

Sounds like he would have really hated that guy that your man Snead was beat by-Paul Runyan! But it is interesting to me, and perhaps indicative about what I posted earlier about the pros versus ams of the times, how some players lose sight of the goal of the game. Get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible. Those that are not great ballstrikers tend to get looked down upon as "inferior" players. Even if their score is consistently lower than the guy hitting fairways and greens. What I meant by my comment about the pros versus ams is the pros of Jones' time were looked down upon as second class citizens, They were better players than most all of the ams but the ams had the upper crust elitist attitude about how things "should" be done.

Oh, absolutely regarding the PGA Tour being looked down upon back in the 1920-30's for sure. I used the description "traveling carnival act" and Sam said that was about it. Another aside regarding Jones, well actually his father, the Colonal, who had that whole Southern elitist "gentleman" bullshat down to a science and he looked down his nose at The Haig as a "huckster" who happened to be able to hit a golf ball and also the PGA Tour. Pete said that when Sam won his first Masters, that Bob Jones was sincerely happy for him but the ole man was pissed because he thought that Sam was a back woods hick and when someone made the comment that it was good to have "a southern boy" win the Masters(and the actual first green coat), the ole man sniped that Sam was "back woods not southern," lol. It got back to Sam and He said that Bob Jones couldn't apologize enough and as Sam didn't drink, he sent him half a friggin cow/side of beef or something as an apology gift, lmao

 

They both said that Bob Jones was the real deal and Sam said that Sir Walter was Seve + long before Seve. Apparently he could be anywhere and it didn't matter, he'd visualize his shot, out his head down and more often than not hit it.

 

Have a nice weekend Bro?

Richard

 

Richard - did Pete ever mention anything about the relationship between Hogan and Nelson? I know they were close at the beginning, and grew apart as the years went on. I always found it odd that Hogan didn't start winning majors until Nelson more or less retired in '46.

I never really read much about Byron Neslson when I was younger and Pete spoke more of "Little Poison" than he did Byron Nelson, though Sam did say that had Mr. Nelson not lost the "fire," he could've easily won 4-5 more majors with his game.

 

He also said that if ya ever cut Byron Nelson, he would bleed ice water. Comin from Sam, that's a pretty big compliment.

 

Have a nice evening?

RP

[Roadking2003]

Phil - 1

Bubba - 2

Weir - 3

 

That settles that, right?

 

My lefty rank;

 

1. Phil

2. Bubba

3. Charles

.

.

.

.

.

.

20. Weir

[dlygrisse]

My heart says Seve - My head says Snead/Hogan

 

Yes.. I understand why Europeans feel this way, but if you look at it objectively Seve did more emotionally and spiritually than he did on paper. He made the Euros feel they could compete with the US tour, and he almost single handedly made the Ryder Cup competitive. In the end he won 5 majors and is the all time leading winner on the Euro tour, a pretty good resume. But not really top 10 material. Many would say his contemporary Faldo was better, and Watson who played pretty much during the same era was certainly better all-time.

 

A side note, Seve would have never played in the Ryder Cup, it was Great Britain only until Nicklaus suggested the rest of Europe get involved to make it more competitive.

 

I do miss watching Seve in his prime, as an American I really hated him in the Ryder Cup, but I had the utmost respect for his game. Still maybe the best short game ever, and he could work those balata balls so nicely.

[WLSTR]

Phil mick

[Hawkeye77]

Hogan or Player for me.

 

I see the argument for Sam, but those two have career grand slams and the failure to win the U.S. Open looms large for me with Sam.

 

Jones' grand slam as then constituted was a great achievement, but not up there with the careers of the above three guys for me.

 

Probably change my mind by next week.

[Darth Putter]

One contender not mentioned so far is Allan Robertson.

 

Legend has it that he never lost a match played for money and he was the first man to break 80 on The Old Course.

 

When he died at age 43 in 1859 it was felt a tournament was needed to determine a replacement for him as the world's best golfer. That tournament is now known as the British Open.

[Darth Putter]

Sam - 3

 

Hogan - 4

Player -5

Arnie - 6

.

.

.

Phil - 23

 

I would put Phil in the top 10, but closer to the double digit side... He doesn't sniff top 5 unless he goes on a giant run (unlikely at this point).

 

 

 

If Phil was a righty, I would have him at 9. It's just difficult to consider any left-handed player in the top 10. They are just so different.

Maybe they need a list all to themselves.

 

Phil - 1

Bubba - 2

Weir - 3

 

That settles that, right?

 

Might put Bob Charles over Weir.

 

 

YES. My error. Bob has like 70+ wins in his career, plus he does charity work with Player and his wife.

 

 

Bob and Phil are both natural right handers. Jordan Spieth, like me, is a natural lefty that plays right handed. I'm not sure which group is supposed to be in your derisive THEY.

[Darth Putter]

It is nice to see Walter Hagen getting his due in this thread. American pros know what Arnold Palmer did for them. I'm not sure they know enough about the Haig.

 

Walter Hagen was the same sort of scrambler that Arnie, Seve and Phil made popular in the tv era. But he had to do it in an era where you had to apologize for making a long putt. The fairways and greens style of Vardon and Jones was the proper way to play.

[Darth Putter]

I think it's Jones but Tom Watson hasn't been mentioned much. Definitely over Phil anyway.

 

If Watson had won the Open at nearly 60, it could well have been him. Even then, it was a remarkable achievement to nearly win it. Only four players have more pro majors than him, and he's won the Open five times.

 

He won PGA Tour Player of the Year six times, behind only Tiger, three straight Vardons. And there's a lot of hypotheticals about who would have beaten who. Well Watson did beat Nicklaus, Jack at more or less his best too, who many consider to be the greatest. On more than one occasion in majors as well. That's got to be worth something.

 

Tom will always be #1 in my heart.

 

From the birdie at the 71st to beat Nicklaus in the 1977 Masters until he put the ball on the road at the 71st at the 1984 British Open, he was THE MAN.

[playa]

Jones was an Amateur and didn't face the pressures of Playin for a roof over his his young wife's head or the baby on the way-

Food on the table or the car in the garage.

 

He admitted as much after The Haig thoroughly annihilated him, 12&11-

 

Forget humiliate-

 

Forget a rough 72 holes(36 at The Haig's track and 36 at Jones')-

 

No All-Timer EVER took a beating this bad!!

 

For those that have Played for Pay you know exactly of what I speak because this is the one subject and Jones the individual that I have asked almost every single Pro that I've ever spoken to and that is, where did Jones fit in with the All-Timers and did the fact that he remained an Am, had absolutely ZERO pressure on himself other than that which was self imposed versus HAVING to Play well to pay the bills, and almost every Pro, with the exception of Jack, who I got the feeling that he was trying to say the politically correct thing versus HIS feelings, said that they felt Jones remaining an Am, while he definitely owned an era, made it easier to compete.

 

Jones admitted numerous times that The Beatdown convinced him to keep his day job.

 

What I find so amusing is for all of his apologists and fan boys, those 72 holes were a mere blip/vomit on the radar screen, yet for Jones, they were his DEFINIG moment as that was when he was seriously considering turning Pro at both Hagen's and Tommy Armour's behest and JONES has admitted that it was this massive humiliating beat down that convinced him to keep his day job and just Play for silver and crystal.

 

Regarding the era, Professional golf was in its infancy and Sam said that there were less than a handful of guys capable of Playing with Jones day in and day out.

 

Daddy's law firm was lookin really fine that Sunday evening following his humiliation.

 

Mighty Mighty fine?

 

Those of you that have actually Played For Pay know exactly of what I speak!!

 

Oh yea, my #3??

 

You Guys know exactly who he is, haha

 

This is of course just my .03 worth?

 

Stay well Gents and have a great weekend?

 

My Best?

RP

 

Awesome stuff Richard ... what year was "the humiliation", pre or post Grand Slam?

Thank you very much?

 

This match was "pre" Slam as I believe that it was either 1925 or '26, and his Slam year was 1930, though there are a couple of interesting side notes to the match.

 

First, Jones would challenge The Haig to a "rematch" a few weeks later, minus the fanfare and press, and though the number wasn't quite as bad as The Beatdown, Jones lost this one also, though by two. The second point is that Jones did use this defeat to work on his game and he would go on to win both the US & British Opens that year, the first time that this fear was ever accomplished.

 

Jones also made some asinine comment regarding how he would much rather Play a golfer who put his drive in the middle of the fairway, laced his approach onto the green and putted for a bird, of which he should make a few and when not, get easy pars, versus a Player who, ah bullshat, here's Jonesy in his own words.....

 

"I would much rather play a man who is straight down the fairway with his drive, on the green with his second, and down in two putts for his par. I can play a man like that at his own game, which is par golf. If one of us can get close to the pin with his approach, or hole a good putt, all right. He has earned something that I can understand. But when a man misses his drive, and then misses his second shot, and then wins the hole with a birdie…it gets my goat!"

 

Sounds like the typical WXRer??

 

Whatta Putz?

 

Have a great day Bro?

RP

Sounds a bit lile Irwin bitching about Seve.

[powerpushfade]

Roy McAvoy in a landslide.

[jmvargas]

My heart says Seve - My head says Snead/Hogan

 

 

Seve done more for golf than any other golfer in the history of the game

 

 

i've been playing golf for almost 60 years and i have to disagree..

 

Arnold Palmer and Tiger Woods have made the greatest impact during their careers...

 

Arnie for singlehandedly raising tournament purses and media exposure and Tiger for increasing its popularity and raising the bar...

 

Seve's impact has probably been great too but more for the European golf scene than globally..

[Forged4ever]

My heart says Seve - My head says Snead/Hogan

 

 

Seve done more for golf than any other golfer in the history of the game

 

 

i've been playing golf for almost 60 years and i have to disagree..

 

Arnold Palmer and Tiger Woods have made the greatest impact during their careers...

 

Arnie for singlehandedly raising tournament purses and media exposure and Tiger for increasing its popularity and raising the bar...

 

Steve's impact has probably been great too but more for the European golf scene than globally..

Yep, you got me by ten years but this is what I'd say for sure!

 

I'm sure that Seve was to golf in Europe what Mr. Palmer was to golf in America-

 

Every single Tour Boy that either teed it up in Tiger's day or followed him should kiss the ground that he walks on because they can thank him for the fact that they can tee it up, make the cut and make a million bucks a year and never sniff a top-5, lol

 

Have a nice evening ?

RP