Third best player of all time?

[f5joe]

I've got Tiger at #3.

 

Uh oh...

 

Watch this thread take a nasty turn.. :)

Why is that? Based on his avatar he likely has Spieth and Rory as #'s 1 & 2. :) Or he needs psychiatric help! Or there is the troll possiblity......or__________ (fill the blank)

 

No troll. Jack #1, Sam #2 and Tiger at #3. Just my opinion.

[DavePelz4]

Today I was the third best player in our twosome.

[powerpushfade]

Today I was the third best player in our twosome.

Hang in there... you just need more reps.

[Shilgy]

Opinions are like bung holes, everyone has one, mine #3 all time is Bobby Jones hands down. Two words - Grand Slam.

One year gets a player third all time? Wow.

[Shilgy]

 

Jones did win 7 majors with Hagan in the field, so there is that.

 

Richard I love your posts, and I respect your opinion. But Jones had that unique ability that very few have had. Jones if anything was a really smart guy, and he realized life made more sense not turning pro simply because there was no real money in it at the time and he had his law and engineering degree.

 

You know what else? Putting food on the table meant nothing to Tiger, he was rich the day he turned pro, Nike took care of that. He played for glory, as did Jones, hell Jack and Arnie didn't make that much money on the course, they made their real money through endorsements. After taxes and expenses the money leaders back in the 1960's didn't have much left.

 

Yes, life is softer for every generation, thank God I don't have to take a covered wagon across the country, or live in a log cabin in the woods. Tiger, Jack and Jones would be great in any era because they were motivated in ways most are not.

Jones did have his degree and law but he and his wife and kids still lived at home with his parents fur three years. So it's not like he really had any money. He made his fortune with his videos. Which for anyone else would have meant instant professional status but for Jones the USGA looked the other way.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

Jones was an Amateur and didn't face the pressures of Playin for a roof over his his young wife's head or the baby on the way-

Food on the table or the car in the garage.

 

He admitted as much after The Haig thoroughly annihilated him, 12&11-

 

Forget humiliate-

 

Forget a rough 72 holes(36 at The Haig's track and 36 at Jones')-

 

No All-Timer EVER took a beating this bad!!

 

For those that have Played for Pay you know exactly of what I speak because this is the one subject and Jones the individual that I have asked almost every single Pro that I've ever spoken to and that is, where did Jones fit in with the All-Timers and did the fact that he remained an Am, had absolutely ZERO pressure on himself other than that which was self imposed versus HAVING to Play well to pay the bills, and almost every Pro, with the exception of Jack, who I got the feeling that he was trying to say the politically correct thing versus HIS feelings, said that they felt Jones remaining an Am, while he definitely owned an era, made it easier to compete.

 

Jones admitted numerous times that The Beatdown convinced him to keep his day job.

 

What I find so amusing is for all of his apologists and fan boys, those 72 holes were a mere blip/vomit on the radar screen, yet for Jones, they were his DEFINIG moment as that was when he was seriously considering turning Pro at both Hagen's and Tommy Armour's behest and JONES has admitted that it was this massive humiliating beat down that convinced him to keep his day job and just Play for silver and crystal.

 

Regarding the era, Professional golf was in its infancy and Sam said that there were less than a handful of guys capable of Playing with Jones day in and day out.

 

Daddy's law firm was lookin really fine that Sunday evening following his humiliation.

 

Mighty Mighty fine??

 

Those of you that have actually Played For Pay know exactly of what I speak!!

 

Oh yea, my #3??

 

You Guys know exactly who he is, haha

 

This is of course just my .03 worth?

 

Stay well Gents and have a great weekend?

 

My Best?

RP

 

I'm not sure I can work up the same sympathy for someone who has to play golf for pay as I have for someone who has to be a prison guard for pay (maybe someone who has to be a prison guard if he can't make enough money playing golf).

[llewol007]

Hard to say because I never got to watch Sam Snead play.

[ebk]

Uh, Kathy Whitworth?

[Rob McHugh]

Too tough - sorry, call me a wimp.

 

Numbers - Hagen

 

Gut - Nelson (ALWAYS had the 'wood' over the Hawk until he retired)

 

Natural Talent - Harvie Ward

 

Rob

[Hankshank]

My heart says Seve - My head says Snead/Hogan

 

Yes.. I understand why Europeans feel this way, but if you look at it objectively Seve did more emotionally and spiritually than he did on paper. He made the Euros feel they could compete with the US tour, and he almost single handedly made the Ryder Cup competitive. In the end he won 5 majors and is the all time leading winner on the Euro tour, a pretty good resume. But not really top 10 material. Many would say his contemporary Faldo was better, and Watson who played pretty much during the same era was certainly better all-time.

 

A side note, Seve would have never played in the Ryder Cup, it was Great Britain only until Nicklaus suggested the rest of Europe get involved to make it more competitive.

 

I do miss watching Seve in his prime, as an American I really hated him in the Ryder Cup, but I had the utmost respect for his game. Still maybe the best short game ever, and he could work those balata balls so nicely.

You deeply overrate the europeans as a herd, our states is not as united as yours.... OK, we have the EU thing, but the main reason for that is not to have war against each other. I will root for some fellow countrymen, when Stenson walked onto the green at Troon I admit feeling tears in my eyes. But otherwise, except for at RC, I will not root more for a spaniard or an englishman than for an american or a argentinian. Then, It's up to the individual golfer.

 

Seve, there is someone I know of a little better than most other golfers. He came to Stockholm several times, I have followed him many rounds and seen him a lot on the driving range. One thing, Tiger and Jack did not have anything close to the short game of Seve. But he was a kind of strange fellow. I have seen him on the range standing on one foot and hitting 180 meter iron shots straight as a needle, shot after shot. Fantastic long drives, not one going left or right. But when he got on to the course, he made all these crazy mistakes all the time. It's almost like he did it on purpose to show off his incredible capacity of getting out of trouble. But more likely, he got nervous. Remember all important shots into lakes, when he had to deliver. He should have beaten Jack 86. He lost the RC for Europe after sending a ridicously bad approach into a lake (when? 91?)

 

For you youngsters, think Jordan Spieth with a really good golf swing. But not the levelheadedness that makes Jordan win. His was a complex personality, that I think will send him out of the top 5. But noone was more exciting to watch. And I think a lot of Americans will agree to that.

[Hankshank]

One contender not mentioned so far is Allan Robertson.

 

Legend has it that he never lost a match played for money and he was the first man to break 80 on The Old Course.

 

When he died at age 43 in 1859 it was felt a tournament was needed to determine a replacement for him as the world's best golfer. That tournament is now known as the British Open.

You wonder, Robertson or Young Tom Morris?

[gvogel]

Uh, Kathy Whitworth?

 

If you're going there, it's Mickey Wright.

[gvogel]

Opinions are like bung holes, everyone has one, mine #3 all time is Bobby Jones hands down. Two words - Grand Slam.

One year gets a player third all time? Wow.

8 years - 1923 through 1930. 7 Opens, 6 Ams. Dominance.

[gvogel]

Opinions are like bung holes, everyone has one, mine #3 all time is Bobby Jones hands down. Two words - Grand Slam.

One year gets a player third all time? Wow.

8 years - 1923 through 1930. 7 Opens, 6 Ams. Dominance.

 

By the way, if you use the World Series or the Super Bowl to define performance, you need to look at the two national championships (US Open, Open Championship) to define golfers. They are, after all, the most important championships.

 

Three players have won a combination of 7: Jack Nicklaus (4 US Opens, 3 Brits), Bobby Jones (4 US, 3 Brits) and Harry Vardon (6 Brits, 1 US). These guys have 6: Tiger Woods, Walter Hagen and Tom Watson.

[Forged4ever]

My #4 is the Haig with Byron Nelson rounding out my Top-5

 

For those that consider Hogan above Mr. Nelson, obviously you can rest on Majors won, however unlike a lot of the guys that we compare, who are from different eras, Byron Nelson competed head up not only through out most of their Professional lives(Byron Nelson retired in 1946), though also as youngsters when Lord Byron kicked Hogan's arse in the Club Caddy Championship-

 

If you compare their head-up performances for the years that Byron Nelson Played, the numbers don’t lie. Comparing Byron Nelson and Ben Hogan and the years (1935-1946) when they intersected on the PGA Tour:

 

• Nelson won 51 tournaments, Hogan 34.

 

• Nelson won five majors, Hogan one.

 

• Eighteen times they played in the same major; Nelson finished higher 12 times, Hogan three.

 

• In their six Masters together, Nelson finished higher all but once.

 

• Truth is, Hogan rarely denied Nelson a victory when it mattered. In contrast, nine times Hogan finished second to Nelson, most notably the 1942 Masters playoff. Three down through five, Nelson went 5 under to win.

 

“When Nelson was at his peak, Hogan had a hard time beating him. Byron was a better player,” James Dodson said. Dodson also spoke to both Henry Picard and Bob Rosburg, peers and friends of both and both said that had Mr. Nelson kept Playing, Hogan would have had less Majors and Byron Nelson more and Byron Nelson could have realistically passed Walter Hagen(11).

 

That's all pure conjecture, for sure-

 

However one can romanticize Ben Hogan's story, career and Place in the game but one thing's a friggin fact Gents....

 

Byron Nelson OWNED Ben Hogan!!

 

Thanks for your time?

 

My Best?

RP

[Sean2]

I don't know about the third best, but the most underrated player of all time has to be Billy Casper.

[Hawkeye77]

One contender not mentioned so far is Allan Robertson.

 

Legend has it that he never lost a match played for money and he was the first man to break 80 on The Old Course.

 

When he died at age 43 in 1859 it was felt a tournament was needed to determine a replacement for him as the world's best golfer. That tournament is now known as the British Open.

 

Probably because he really isn't a contender, but an historically significant player.

[cdnglf]

I don't know about the third best, but the most underrated player of all time has to be Billy Casper.

 

 

Biggest victim of the "majors are everything" retcon.

[PGArox]

One contender not mentioned so far is Allan Robertson.

 

Legend has it that he never lost a match played for money and he was the first man to break 80 on The Old Course.

 

When he died at age 43 in 1859 it was felt a tournament was needed to determine a replacement for him as the world's best golfer. That tournament is now known as the British Open.

 

I played with a guy named Curt Andersen in eighth grade. Dude never lost.

[Hawkeye77]

 

Jones did win 7 majors with Hagan in the field, so there is that.

 

Richard I love your posts, and I respect your opinion. But Jones had that unique ability that very few have had. Jones if anything was a really smart guy, and he realized life made more sense not turning pro simply because there was no real money in it at the time and he had his law and engineering degree.

 

You know what else? Putting food on the table meant nothing to Tiger, he was rich the day he turned pro, Nike took care of that. He played for glory, as did Jones, hell Jack and Arnie didn't make that much money on the course, they made their real money through endorsements. After taxes and expenses the money leaders back in the 1960's didn't have much left.

 

Yes, life is softer for every generation, thank God I don't have to take a covered wagon across the country, or live in a log cabin in the woods. Tiger, Jack and Jones would be great in any era because they were motivated in ways most are not.

Jones did have his degree and law but he and his wife and kids still lived at home with his parents fur three years. So it's not like he really had any money. He made his fortune with his videos. Which for anyone else would have meant instant professional status but for Jones the USGA looked the other way.

 

Made some $ off of Coca Cola.

[Shilgy]

 

Jones did win 7 majors with Hagan in the field, so there is that.

 

Richard I love your posts, and I respect your opinion. But Jones had that unique ability that very few have had. Jones if anything was a really smart guy, and he realized life made more sense not turning pro simply because there was no real money in it at the time and he had his law and engineering degree.

 

You know what else? Putting food on the table meant nothing to Tiger, he was rich the day he turned pro, Nike took care of that. He played for glory, as did Jones, hell Jack and Arnie didn't make that much money on the course, they made their real money through endorsements. After taxes and expenses the money leaders back in the 1960's didn't have much left.

 

Yes, life is softer for every generation, thank God I don't have to take a covered wagon across the country, or live in a log cabin in the woods. Tiger, Jack and Jones would be great in any era because they were motivated in ways most are not.

Jones did have his degree and law but he and his wife and kids still lived at home with his parents fur three years. So it's not like he really had any money. He made his fortune with his videos. Which for anyone else would have meant instant professional status but for Jones the USGA looked the other way.

 

Made some $ off of Coca Cola.

After he retired?

[Shilgy]

Here is an interesting, at least to me :) , issue with threads like these. The way it looks right now this conversation would be exactly the same, with the same names, in 50 years. With the number of high quality players on tours getting higher and higher it will be very difficult for anyone to pass what is considered to be the top 10-20 of all time. If at the end of his career a DJ has 20-25 wins and three or so majors he will be considered just an ok player. In the Miller Els realm at best. Perhaps there will be a couple players that, like Tiger or Phil, can break through into the conversation. So when the sport is pushing 175 years old we will be told that of the great players(top 25 or so) must played in the first century and only 4 or 5 at best played in the next 75.

[arkurczi]

I would say Hogan. Even though Snead has more wins he never had a stretch where he dominated the game like Bantam Ben.

[baaron008]

Golf instruction, training, and equipment is so much more sophisticated right now versus the 1910-1986 era that pros who are really and truly more talented than most of the field still aren't going to win nearly as many tournaments and majors than the pros who were more talented in yesteryears.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Here is an interesting, at least to me :) , issue with threads like these. The way it looks right now this conversation would be exactly the same, with the same names, in 50 years. With the number of high quality players on tours getting higher and higher it will be very difficult for anyone to pass what is considered to be the top 10-20 of all time. If at the end of his career a DJ has 20-25 wins and three or so majors he will be considered just an ok player. In the Miller Els realm at best. Perhaps there will be a couple players that, like Tiger or Phil, can break through into the conversation. So when the sport is pushing 175 years old we will be told that of the great players(top 25 or so) must played in the first century and only 4 or 5 at best played in the next 75.

 

Dude, such a great post. It's crazy that so many people only throw out names from 80 years ago. Sergio Garcia (or, insert name) would have 8+ majors if he played in the 50s through 70s.

[deadsolid...shank]

Today I was the third best player in our twosome.

 

Up to third? You're improving DP!

[DavePelz4]

Today I was the third best player in our twosome.

 

Up to third? You're improving DP!��

 

It's the KSig's Sir. Otherwise I'd have been 6th.

[PGArox]

Here is an interesting, at least to me :) , issue with threads like these. The way it looks right now this conversation would be exactly the same, with the same names, in 50 years. With the number of high quality players on tours getting higher and higher it will be very difficult for anyone to pass what is considered to be the top 10-20 of all time. If at the end of his career a DJ has 20-25 wins and three or so majors he will be considered just an ok player. In the Miller Els realm at best. Perhaps there will be a couple players that, like Tiger or Phil, can break through into the conversation. So when the sport is pushing 175 years old we will be told that of the great players(top 25 or so) must played in the first century and only 4 or 5 at best played in the next 75.

 

Dude, such a great post. It's crazy that so many people only throw out names from 80 years ago. Sergio Garcia (or, insert name) would have 8+ majors if he played in the 50s through 70s.

 

Maybe Phil is #3, then. :)

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Here is an interesting, at least to me :) , issue with threads like these. The way it looks right now this conversation would be exactly the same, with the same names, in 50 years. With the number of high quality players on tours getting higher and higher it will be very difficult for anyone to pass what is considered to be the top 10-20 of all time. If at the end of his career a DJ has 20-25 wins and three or so majors he will be considered just an ok player. In the Miller Els realm at best. Perhaps there will be a couple players that, like Tiger or Phil, can break through into the conversation. So when the sport is pushing 175 years old we will be told that of the great players(top 25 or so) must played in the first century and only 4 or 5 at best played in the next 75.

 

Dude, such a great post. It's crazy that so many people only throw out names from 80 years ago. Sergio Garcia (or, insert name) would have 8+ majors if he played in the 50s through 70s.

 

Maybe Phil is #3, then. :)

 

I don't doubt it. In terms of pure talent, I would put Phil in the top 3. Phil was Tiger before Tiger was Tiger. He was/is just a pure talent that may never be matched.

[lowheel]

Here is an interesting, at least to me :) , issue with threads like these. The way it looks right now this conversation would be exactly the same, with the same names, in 50 years. With the number of high quality players on tours getting higher and higher it will be very difficult for anyone to pass what is considered to be the top 10-20 of all time. If at the end of his career a DJ has 20-25 wins and three or so majors he will be considered just an ok player. In the Miller Els realm at best. Perhaps there will be a couple players that, like Tiger or Phil, can break through into the conversation. So when the sport is pushing 175 years old we will be told that of the great players(top 25 or so) must played in the first century and only 4 or 5 at best played in the next 75.

 

I dont really agree with you on your premise. In the next 50 years there will be 2 more jack/tiger type players and supporting actors like a phil to go with them. Those 2 will be in the convo of top 3 ever and the others will be top 10-25 ever.Its inevitable. Look at tennis, the same thing was said after sampras retired and yet 20 years later here we are. 3 all time greats recked all records. 50 years from now who will break gretzkys records? Answer: nobody but thats a team sport.

If people are putting tiger above jack today without getting close to his major record. Who says in 25 years another golfer gets to 55-60 wins and lets say 12 majors the same arguments then will be made like they are being made today. He had tougher competition etc.. so in the end hes better. Greats are greats because of their #s and historic relevance.

If DJ ends his career with 25 wins and 3-4 majors he didnt have an ok career. He had an elite hall of fame career. Davis Toms had an ok career. Mike weir had an ok career. You see where im going with this.

Ernie Els alot like phil would look alot better had a certain player never come along but thems the breaks. Doesnt diminish their HOF careers and standing in the history of the game