Fairway divot rule

[Vindog]

So in order to offer free relief from a divot, then you also need to define the specs for the divot.

 

Then you also need to determine the specs for when a divot is no longer a divot and just an imperfection that is no longer entitled to relief.

 

No, you don't need to define anything. Just allow the golfer to move the ball six inches for any reason or for no reason at all.

 

Why?

 

At that point it's not about making the game more fair, it's about making it easier.

 

How does moving my ball 6 inches make the game easier if I'm not in a divot?

 

 

Why do you want to be able to move it then?

[Shilgy]

For those that feel it's fair because a good shot should be rewarded, not harmed by the divot, I have played many holes over the years where the second shot can be blocked by a tree even though I hit the fairway. Should I be able to move the ball because a shot to the fairway should be rewarded? Or should I have hit the tee shot to another part of the fairway or even into the rough to avoid being behind the tree?

Should all holes have clean chutes to hit through? No trees in the way? No doglegs to be past or short of?

[BiggErn]

For those that feel it's fair because a good shot should be rewarded, not harmed by the divot, I have played many holes over the years where the second shot can be blocked by a tree even though I hit the fairway. Should I be able to move the ball because a shot to the fairway should be rewarded? Or should I have hit the tee shot to another part of the fairway or even into the rough to avoid being behind the tree?

Should all holes have clean chutes to hit through? No trees in the way? No doglegs to be past or short of?

 

Makes sense since the argument isn’t just about the lie of the ball. Dur

[BlackDiamondPar5]

So in order to offer free relief from a divot, then you also need to define the specs for the divot.

 

Then you also need to determine the specs for when a divot is no longer a divot and just an imperfection that is no longer entitled to relief.

 

No, you don't need to define anything. Just allow the golfer to move the ball six inches for any reason or for no reason at all.

 

Why?

 

At that point it's not about making the game more fair, it's about making it easier.

 

How does moving my ball 6 inches make the game easier if I'm not in a divot?

Are you proposing placing or dropping?

[Vindog]

For those that feel it's fair because a good shot should be rewarded, not harmed by the divot, I have played many holes over the years where the second shot can be blocked by a tree even though I hit the fairway. Should I be able to move the ball because a shot to the fairway should be rewarded? Or should I have hit the tee shot to another part of the fairway or even into the rough to avoid being behind the tree?

Should all holes have clean chutes to hit through? No trees in the way? No doglegs to be past or short of?

 

Makes sense since the argument isn’t just about the lie of the ball. Dur

 

What else is it about?

[BiggErn]

For those that feel it's fair because a good shot should be rewarded, not harmed by the divot, I have played many holes over the years where the second shot can be blocked by a tree even though I hit the fairway. Should I be able to move the ball because a shot to the fairway should be rewarded? Or should I have hit the tee shot to another part of the fairway or even into the rough to avoid being behind the tree?

Should all holes have clean chutes to hit through? No trees in the way? No doglegs to be past or short of?

 

Makes sense since the argument isn’t just about the lie of the ball. Dur

 

What else is it about?

 

Nothing. Just the lie of the ball. I’m sure those against it have never played “winter rules” or made a self determination of ground under repair.

[Vindog]

For those that feel it's fair because a good shot should be rewarded, not harmed by the divot, I have played many holes over the years where the second shot can be blocked by a tree even though I hit the fairway. Should I be able to move the ball because a shot to the fairway should be rewarded? Or should I have hit the tee shot to another part of the fairway or even into the rough to avoid being behind the tree?

Should all holes have clean chutes to hit through? No trees in the way? No doglegs to be past or short of?

 

Makes sense since the argument isn’t just about the lie of the ball. Dur

 

What else is it about?

 

Nothing. Just the lie of the ball. I’m sure those against it have never played “winter rules” or made a self determination of ground under repair.

 

No of course not. WHy would I ever live in a place that has "winter"? ewwww

 

And ground under repair? My course never needs repairing, just as pristine as the Hallowed Grounds of Augusta, so maybe one day everyone will be as lucky as me :golfer:

[Shilgy]

For those that feel it's fair because a good shot should be rewarded, not harmed by the divot, I have played many holes over the years where the second shot can be blocked by a tree even though I hit the fairway. Should I be able to move the ball because a shot to the fairway should be rewarded? Or should I have hit the tee shot to another part of the fairway or even into the rough to avoid being behind the tree?

Should all holes have clean chutes to hit through? No trees in the way? No doglegs to be past or short of?

 

Makes sense since the argument isn’t just about the lie of the ball. Dur

 

What else is it about?

Fairness my lad, fairness. If I hit the fairway I am entitled to my lie of choice am I not? :)

[Vindog]

For those that feel it's fair because a good shot should be rewarded, not harmed by the divot, I have played many holes over the years where the second shot can be blocked by a tree even though I hit the fairway. Should I be able to move the ball because a shot to the fairway should be rewarded? Or should I have hit the tee shot to another part of the fairway or even into the rough to avoid being behind the tree?

Should all holes have clean chutes to hit through? No trees in the way? No doglegs to be past or short of?

 

Makes sense since the argument isn't just about the lie of the ball. Dur

 

What else is it about?

Fairness my lad, fairness. If I hit the fairway I am entitled to my lie of choice am I not? :)

 

That just mad, old chap. The game still need be difficult, else all the riff raff would enjoy it as much as I.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So lets keep it within 6 inches shall we?

[Augster]

Golf isn’t dying because of divots. It’s dying because it is too hard and too expensive to get good at it. And it takes a long time to practice to get good at it and a long time to play once you are on the course.

 

That’s it.

 

As above, I’d bet nearly all the players that quit golf weren’t playing by the rules anyway. One day they just realize they’ve put so much time and money in and aren’t much better at it, certainly not tour level and never will be, and quit playing and find something else easier to do.

 

I really have no idea how anyone enjoys shooting a round in the 90’s or higher. I know some folks that play and really have fun playing and turn in a card that’s in the 90’s. I can’t do that. I want to quit anytime I shoot in the 80’s. It’s just not enjoyable. At all.

 

That’s why I’ll quit golf someday. Not the rules. Not divots. Because it’s too hard to get really good at it, and stay there. I don’t mind the time commitment. What else would I be doing? Watching TV? Ish. I love being out on the course. 5 hour rounds don’t bother me at all. I love to spend time practicing.

 

But I don’t get any better, and in most cases, worse. When you shoot under par rounds, going back to barely breaking 80 or not breaking 80 very often isn’t any fun at all.

 

Some people come to the realization they’ll never be any good at the sport faster than others and leave the game. Others, like me, toil on and on hoping I’ll get better one day while being miserable from the first tee shot to the final putt. Sign for my 83 and hope another hobby comes along that I’ll like doing as much as playing good golf.

 

But I’ll never quit because of the rules, or divots, or the handicap system, or any other ludicrous theory that gets thrown out there for why people leave the game.

[sdandrea]

These seem to be all the same opinions and arguments that were in the last 42 threads about fairway divots.......................

[sui generis]

These seem to be all the same opinions and arguments that were in the last 42 threads about fairway divots.......................

 

They roll in like clock work seeking approval for their unwillingness to abide by the Rules claiming privilege. Golf is a difficult sport; the Rules are consequentialy complex. They needn't be made even more so by creating further inequities.

[hybrid25]

I really have no idea how anyone enjoys shooting a round in the 90’s or higher. I know some folks that play and really have fun playing and turn in a card that’s in the 90’s. I can’t do that. I want to quit anytime I shoot in the 80’s. It’s just not enjoyable. At all.

You are playing golf for the wrong reasons. Sure it's fun to play well, but if you can't enjoy the game shooting in the 80s or 90s you should quit and do the rest of the golfers of favor. You are probably no fun to be around.

[Vindog]

I don't mind shooting in the 90s because I know that if I had just dropped a putt or two more and hit a few more fairways and greens and also kept in play a few more times in-bounds I'd be in the 70s.

 

So basically I'm right there.

[SNIPERBBB]

These seem to be all the same opinions and arguments that were in the last 42 threads about fairway divots.......................

 

That's because there isnt any new information to change the debate. Now if we found out playing out of divots or taking relief from divots 100% cured/caused cancer, increased/decreased bedroom performance, cause/cure global warming or some other plight/miracle then we'd be on to something.

[jlbos83]

It's a totally different topic, but I can have plenty of fun shooting in the 90s, though I like the lower rounds better. For one, I am playing. After being diagnosed with cancer a couple years ago, being on the green side of the grass is a good thing. Second, I often am playing with one of my sons. How do you beat that? Third, that shot that (hopefully) comes around once a round, that just feels so good! One can hardly wait to feel that again! The 5 wood from 210 that ends up smack in the middle of the green. The soft wedge that lands right next to the hole. The chip in sand save! I don't have to be good to have way too much fun! And as I improve (after years of not) I hope it gets better! I just have to get rid of the hook I've acquired after decades of slicing!

[6Aces]

I have not read all 200+ responses so I may be repeating what someone else has already commented on.

 

When the ruling bodies asked for public input regarding changes in the rules, the relief from a divot issue was one of the most often asked questions. The Joint Rules Committee spent considerable time discussing the divot issue, when writing the 2019, rules and for the reasons outlined in the first few posts here, (What is a divot? When does a divot cease to become a divot?...) decided NOT to allow relief from them.

[sui generis]

I have not read all 200+ responses so I may be repeating what someone else has already commented on.

 

When the ruling bodies asked for public input regarding changes in the rules, the relief from a divot issue was one of the most often asked questions. The Joint Rules Committee spent considerable time discussing the divot issue, when writing the 2019, rules and for the reasons outlined in the first few posts here, (What is a divot? When does a divot cease to become a divot?...) decided NOT to allow relief from them.

 

Thanks, 6Aces. In case anyone cares to go to the source, here it is:

 

. . . the new Rules do not provide relief without penalty from situations that some golfers complain about, such as when their ball comes to rest in a divot hole on a fairway or in footprints in a poorly raked bunker. In addition to being contrary to the fundamental principle of playing the ball as it lies, providing free relief in such circumstances would make the Rules harder to apply (for example, what is the difference between an irregularity of surface and an old divot hole?) and could slow down play when there are difficult questions about what is or isn’t a divot hole.

 

http://www.usga.org/...-addressed.html

[DeeBee30]

When a ball is in a divot hole in the fairway or a foot print in a bunker, the player is suffering from the carelessness of someone else and would seem to be entitled to relief.

Quite correctly, the Rules do not accord any more consideration to these situations than to the player who finds his ball in an equally difficult position created by nature, course condition or any other cause.

Chance has brought the player's ball into an unfavorable position and he must do his best to overcome the obstacle.

To many, including myself, your last sentence is the very object of the game. It is a mental examination, not just physical, and how we deal with both the so called good and bad breaks is the essence of the game.

 

Hi all! Longtime non-registered lurker and newer poster here. Sounds like this topic has been hashed out before, and this is one that's been near and dear to me for a long time.

 

First, let me say that I play by the USGA rules of golf: I play the ball down, hit from obstructed lies, re-hit shots that go OB and putt out everything unless playing match format. And I record every stroke for hcp purposes. Having said that, I've long been a proponent that a fairway divot hole (meaning the bare hole from a non-replaced divot or the sand-filled variety) should be considered ground under repair and result in relief. If you're good enough to hit the fairway, you should be rewarded with a fairway lie, not the equivalent of a rut or a mini fairway bunker.

 

The rules of golf have long since allowed us to fix careless players' obstacles on the green by way of repairing pitch marks in your putting line. If it's so important to force golfers to overcome obstacles, why not dictate that (1) you have to putt around or through the pitch marks or (2) you should have hit your approach to a different spot?

 

And what about casual water? If a course that we non-pros play has poor drainage and the fairway (or rough, bunkers, or greens) has soaked spots or standing water, we get relief from those. How is that so different from saying that we should hit from a gouge in the fairway because the grass hasn't grown in yet? Why don't we have to suck it up and hit from casual water, knowing for next time that we should hit our drive to the high side of the fairway to avoid those areas just because they haven't dried up yet?

 

Also, if a course has replanted turf and marked it ground under repair, why is that a drop? Most golfers could actually get better results hitting from a new patch of sod than a sand-filled divot hole. I get that the course wants to protect the new sod, but the rules of golf would otherwise consider that to be in play if it weren't specifically marked. One could argue that, from an agronomy perspective, golf courses might be better off invoking permanent local rules to consider divot holes as ground under repair so players don't re-injure the turf (much like they tend to do for staked trees). Even if it's a grass divot that's been replaced, it's still better for the turf if it's not hit again before it re-establishes roots.

 

For those concerned with the slippery slope and abuse argument, wouldn't it make sense to allow relief if there's agreement from your playing companion(s) that it is a divot hole and isn't simply an imperfection in the fairway? If the consensus is that it's not really a divot hole, then play away. If you're playing alone, move it 6" and don't feel bad about it. Much like we do now for cart paths, sprinkler heads and other immovable objects?

 

The rules of golf are evolving (thank goodness!) We will now be able to repair spike marks on the green from where the last guy did his Michael Jackson moonwalk impression around the hole. Until now, conventional wisdom has been "suck it up and putt through it". We will now be able to putt with the flagstick in (about time!). The game evolves, and the rules need to keep up. The vast majority of the golfing world doesn't get to play on perfectly manicured courses that have been closed for months and only see 150 golfers during the week of play, so what's the harm in refining this rule to allow some relief for the handful of times it may happen to us throughout our season?

 

Look, I'm 98% a golf purist and will play the game until I'm buried in my own personal divot hole. But there's so much focus on growing the game, and part of that is making it friendlier to retain and attract players. Without going overboard, I believe additional rules tweaks like this cause very little harm while increasing the enjoyment of the game. And hey, if you still want to hit out of a divot hole after the rules allow relief because you're a purist, then have at it.

 

You've read this?

 

http://www.usga.org/...-addressed.html

 

Yes, I have - and I disagree with the decision not to address this topic via a rules modification.

[DeeBee30]

For those that feel it's fair because a good shot should be rewarded, not harmed by the divot, I have played many holes over the years where the second shot can be blocked by a tree even though I hit the fairway. Should I be able to move the ball because a shot to the fairway should be rewarded? Or should I have hit the tee shot to another part of the fairway or even into the rough to avoid being behind the tree?

Should all holes have clean chutes to hit through? No trees in the way? No doglegs to be past or short of?

 

You can often see a tree overhanging the fairway, or at least know of it from a previous round - part of having local course knowledge. Either way, the tree is a natural part of the course design, it's there all the time and it becomes part of the course strategy, so you can attempt to position your ball in the portion of the fairway that isn't blocked out. Divot holes aren't a natural part of the course design...they're a byproduct of play.

 

Look, this is clearly a pretty charged issue in the world of golf and will likely remain so for a looooong time. Everyone doesn't need to agree...reasonable people can disagree without being disagreeable, and I believe there's plenty of room for healthy, respectful debate. Isn't that one of the purposes of forums, whether online or in person?

[DeeBee30]

For those concerned with the slippery slope and abuse argument, wouldn't it make sense to allow relief if there's agreement from your playing companion(s) that it is a divot hole and isn't simply an imperfection in the fairway? If the consensus is that it's not really a divot hole, then play away. If you're playing alone, move it 6" and don't feel bad about it. Much like we do now for cart paths, sprinkler heads and other immovable objects?

And if you are playing in a tournament with 100 other competitors how do you explain this to the other 99, many of whom will not agree that it is a divot hole, but who will be affected by your score?

 

But I thought golf was better than other sports because it's a game of honor and that we believe in playing by the rules of the game? If we're competing and you seek relief, isn't my priority supposed to be preserving the integrity of the game? So...why would I automatically disagree that you're in a divot hole when you clearly are? Would I challenge you if you sought relief from a cart path if you claimed that, while your ball didn't come to rest on it, it would interfere with your natural swing?

 

Aside from Jordan Spieth (joking), it's incumbent on us to (1) not abuse the rules and (2) not prevent others from using the rules to their favor.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

When a ball is in a divot hole in the fairway or a foot print in a bunker, the player is suffering from the carelessness of someone else and would seem to be entitled to relief.

Quite correctly, the Rules do not accord any more consideration to these situations than to the player who finds his ball in an equally difficult position created by nature, course condition or any other cause.

Chance has brought the player's ball into an unfavorable position and he must do his best to overcome the obstacle.

To many, including myself, your last sentence is the very object of the game. It is a mental examination, not just physical, and how we deal with both the so called good and bad breaks is the essence of the game.

 

Hi all! Longtime non-registered lurker and newer poster here. Sounds like this topic has been hashed out before, and this is one that's been near and dear to me for a long time.

 

First, let me say that I play by the USGA rules of golf: I play the ball down, hit from obstructed lies, re-hit shots that go OB and putt out everything unless playing match format. And I record every stroke for hcp purposes. Having said that, I've long been a proponent that a fairway divot hole (meaning the bare hole from a non-replaced divot or the sand-filled variety) should be considered ground under repair and result in relief. If you're good enough to hit the fairway, you should be rewarded with a fairway lie, not the equivalent of a rut or a mini fairway bunker.

 

The rules of golf have long since allowed us to fix careless players' obstacles on the green by way of repairing pitch marks in your putting line. If it's so important to force golfers to overcome obstacles, why not dictate that (1) you have to putt around or through the pitch marks or (2) you should have hit your approach to a different spot?

 

And what about casual water? If a course that we non-pros play has poor drainage and the fairway (or rough, bunkers, or greens) has soaked spots or standing water, we get relief from those. How is that so different from saying that we should hit from a gouge in the fairway because the grass hasn't grown in yet? Why don't we have to suck it up and hit from casual water, knowing for next time that we should hit our drive to the high side of the fairway to avoid those areas just because they haven't dried up yet?

 

Also, if a course has replanted turf and marked it ground under repair, why is that a drop? Most golfers could actually get better results hitting from a new patch of sod than a sand-filled divot hole. I get that the course wants to protect the new sod, but the rules of golf would otherwise consider that to be in play if it weren't specifically marked. One could argue that, from an agronomy perspective, golf courses might be better off invoking permanent local rules to consider divot holes as ground under repair so players don't re-injure the turf (much like they tend to do for staked trees). Even if it's a grass divot that's been replaced, it's still better for the turf if it's not hit again before it re-establishes roots.

 

For those concerned with the slippery slope and abuse argument, wouldn't it make sense to allow relief if there's agreement from your playing companion(s) that it is a divot hole and isn't simply an imperfection in the fairway? If the consensus is that it's not really a divot hole, then play away. If you're playing alone, move it 6" and don't feel bad about it. Much like we do now for cart paths, sprinkler heads and other immovable objects?

 

The rules of golf are evolving (thank goodness!) We will now be able to repair spike marks on the green from where the last guy did his Michael Jackson moonwalk impression around the hole. Until now, conventional wisdom has been "suck it up and putt through it". We will now be able to putt with the flagstick in (about time!). The game evolves, and the rules need to keep up. The vast majority of the golfing world doesn't get to play on perfectly manicured courses that have been closed for months and only see 150 golfers during the week of play, so what's the harm in refining this rule to allow some relief for the handful of times it may happen to us throughout our season?

 

Look, I'm 98% a golf purist and will play the game until I'm buried in my own personal divot hole. But there's so much focus on growing the game, and part of that is making it friendlier to retain and attract players. Without going overboard, I believe additional rules tweaks like this cause very little harm while increasing the enjoyment of the game. And hey, if you still want to hit out of a divot hole after the rules allow relief because you're a purist, then have at it.

 

You've read this?

 

http://www.usga.org/...-addressed.html

 

Yes, I have - and I disagree with the decision not to address this topic via a rules modification.

Divots can be minor to major/deep and change throughout their lifecycle until they are just a slight discoloration until completely healed. How do you determine when relief is no longer entitled?

[davep043]

 

Divots can be minor to major/deep and change throughout their lifecycle until they are just a slight discoloration until completely healed. How do you determine when relief is no longer entitled?

The question has been asked in this thread, and others, hundreds of times, and never answered. The position that I see most of the "divot-relief" proponents take now is that we should always be able to lift clean and place in our own fairway, since we should never have a disadvantageous lie after a good shot. If I've misrepresented their view, I'm sure I'll be corrected quickly.

[Newby]

So...why would I automatically disagree that you're in a divot hole when you clearly are?

 

 

For this legitimate reason from a post above.

 

Divots can be minor to major/deep and change throughout their lifecycle until they are just a slight discoloration until completely healed. How do you determine when relief is no longer entitled?

 

But of course nobody is arguing about clearly being in a divot hole. It's all about "Is it a divot hole?"

[Mikey5e]

In the case that an old divot is hard to distinguish between that and the normal ground, what advantage is there to pick up and drop a yard away. There is really no advantage to a golfer picking up a ball and dropping it a yard away in what might be considered a debatable divot. In fact, there is really no Advantage picking up any golf ball and dropping it within one yard of its original location. Golf is a game of trust in etiquette, and I think the rules should embrace the idea that most golfers will be honest about their methods. If people are dishonest, well that is their issue.

[nsxguy]

In the case that an old divot is hard to distinguish between that and the normal ground, what advantage is there to pick up and drop a yard away. There is really no advantage to a golfer picking up a ball and dropping it a yard away in what might be considered a debatable divot. In fact, there is really no Advantage picking up any golf ball and dropping it within one yard of its original location. Golf is a game of trust in etiquette, and I think the rules should embrace the idea that most golfers will be honest about their methods. If people are dishonest, well that is their issue.

 

Divots aside, are you serious ?

 

You're a 3 handicapper and you can't think of any situations where 3 feet from where you ball is would be anything from a slight advantage to a tremendous advantage ?

 

And yes, I mean IN the fairway (as I'm assuming you're not proposing moving it anywhere else).

[BiggErn]

In the case that an old divot is hard to distinguish between that and the normal ground, what advantage is there to pick up and drop a yard away. There is really no advantage to a golfer picking up a ball and dropping it a yard away in what might be considered a debatable divot. In fact, there is really no Advantage picking up any golf ball and dropping it within one yard of its original location. Golf is a game of trust in etiquette, and I think the rules should embrace the idea that most golfers will be honest about their methods. If people are dishonest, well that is their issue.

 

Divots aside, are you serious ?

 

You're a 3 handicapper and you can't think of any situations where 3 feet from where you ball is would be anything from a slight advantage to a tremendous advantage ?

 

And yes, I mean IN the fairway (as I'm assuming you're not proposing moving it anywhere else).

 

 

Ever seen a fairway that had a bad patch and was outlined with white paint and labeled as GUR? I’m not saying outline every divot I’m asking why would you label that area as GUR instead of playing it as it lies?

[Vindog]

In the case that an old divot is hard to distinguish between that and the normal ground, what advantage is there to pick up and drop a yard away. There is really no advantage to a golfer picking up a ball and dropping it a yard away in what might be considered a debatable divot. In fact, there is really no Advantage picking up any golf ball and dropping it within one yard of its original location. Golf is a game of trust in etiquette, and I think the rules should embrace the idea that most golfers will be honest about their methods. If people are dishonest, well that is their issue.

 

Respectfully, the advantage might be that you could then change other aspects of your lie not related to the divot hole. You could move from ball above feet to flat, hardpan to grass, edge of fairway to away from second cut, etc...

[HitEmTrue]

In the case that an old divot is hard to distinguish between that and the normal ground, what advantage is there to pick up and drop a yard away. There is really no advantage to a golfer picking up a ball and dropping it a yard away in what might be considered a debatable divot. In fact, there is really no Advantage picking up any golf ball and dropping it within one yard of its original location. Golf is a game of trust in etiquette, and I think the rules should embrace the idea that most golfers will be honest about their methods. If people are dishonest, well that is their issue.

 

Respectfully, the advantage might be that you could then change other aspects of your lie not related to the divot hole. You could move from ball above feet to flat, hardpan to grass, edge of fairway to away from second cut, etc...

 

Change the angle of the shot needed to get around a tree branch...drop it next to a sprinkler head or some other obstruction and have free relief improve your position even more....

 

And if the rules were to allow every ball in the fairway to be moved, taking any of those actions would not be dishonest at all.

[terrell75]

This topic is valid. Today the game is different. Clubs are different. Balls are different. And the course is different. Divots are deeper than they once were as courses have softened. Clubs have bigger flanges as they're designed to hit off soft turf. The game once played on hard courses with clubs without flanges, divots were not as deep and they weren't as hard to escape. I do think the divot rule should be changed. I do think in one's own fairway it should simply be preferred lies. So it is against the spirit of the game? So is the modern ball, so is the modern driver, so is music on the course, so it the power cart, so is the long putter. The list of things that are worse than getting relief from a divot goes on and on...

 

Now this is a great response!