Interesting development - $3000 pay to caddy from a $1.3 million winners check? (MOD EDIT - NO POLIT

[jmck]

Kuch is certainly entitled to stiff the guy.

[CasualLie]

 

 

Goodguykuchar is a parody account. The marcgraubart guy included that either as a joke or because he really thinks that's Matt Kuchar's account. I don't think the real Kuchar has a Twitter.

 

oh...thanks for that...I should have looked closer but who can be bothered with all this nonsense on Twitter. Necessary evil for getting wifi access at Heathrow or bumping up chances on ticket drawings. It did play a role in the revolt in Egypt, so there is that. Ooops...is that politics?! Sorry.

[DavePelz4]

Also, the fact that Kuchar gave that "not 10% and not $3,000" vague answer. If he was totally innocent of this it seems like he would be more angry and say something along the lines of "I gave him a generous amount and way more than $3,000".

 

We employ several hundred people in our business and on occasion, are asked to supply personal/financial information if a team member is looking to make a significant purchase. As matter of policy, we NEVER provide any information unless the employee has given written authorization.

 

So why should Kuch tell the world what he paid someone else?

 

How is that a good comparison?

 

Do you think Kuch has a written policy on this? No, he was simply being asked to defend himself.

 

And I never said that he needed to tell the world anything. But the way in which he did choose to answer the question, does not make him look innocent.

 

I can't speak to if they had a verbal or written agreement and I'm not sure anyone else can. Sure...he could have said the arrangement was between the caddie and me and he didn't. The caddie could have said what he earned but to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't done that. The people who seem to have the biggest issues with this aren't either party and they're the two that negotiated the deal. Apparently at the time of the negotiations, both parties were satisfied with the deal so what's the issue?

[ebrasmus21]

Also, the fact that Kuchar gave that "not 10% and not $3,000" vague answer. If he was totally innocent of this it seems like he would be more angry and say something along the lines of "I gave him a generous amount and way more than $3,000".

 

We employ several hundred people in our business and on occasion, are asked to supply personal/financial information if a team member is looking to make a significant purchase. As matter of policy, we NEVER provide any information unless the employee has given written authorization.

 

So why should Kuch tell the world what he paid someone else?

 

How is that a good comparison?

 

Do you think Kuch has a written policy on this? No, he was simply being asked to defend himself.

 

And I never said that he needed to tell the world anything. But the way in which he did choose to answer the question, does not make him look innocent.

 

I can't speak to if they had a verbal or written agreement and I'm not sure anyone else can. Sure...he could have said the arrangement was between the caddie and me and he didn't. The caddie could have said what he earned but to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't done that. The people who seem to have the biggest issues with this aren't either party and they're the two that negotiated the deal. Apparently at the time of the negotiations, both parties were satisfied with the deal so what's the issue?

 

Social justice and virtue signaling are the goal.

[Under2hours]

The more I think about it, it is obvious the Caddy is screwed either way. Kuch obviously stiffed him (and no problem saying it). But the caddy can't say a whole lot of anything as $5,000 is 6-8 weeks pay and if he wants to be on a bag during Mayakoba 2019.

[DFS PFD]

Guilty until proven innocent, that's how it goes, right?

[Ferguson]

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that tour cash, for lack of a better word, is good. Tour cash is right, Tour cash works. Tour cash clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Tour cash, in all of its forms; Tour cash for life, for golf, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And Tour cash, you mark my words, will not only be unshared fairly with caddies, but excessive Tour cash will bring down that malfunctioning corporation called the PGA .

 

Thank you very much.

[bscinstnct]

Also, the fact that Kuchar gave that "not 10% and not $3,000" vague answer. If he was totally innocent of this it seems like he would be more angry and say something along the lines of "I gave him a generous amount and way more than $3,000".

 

We employ several hundred people in our business and on occasion, are asked to supply personal/financial information if a team member is looking to make a significant purchase. As matter of policy, we NEVER provide any information unless the employee has given written authorization.

 

So why should Kuch tell the world what he paid someone else?

 

How is that a good comparison?

 

Do you think Kuch has a written policy on this? No, he was simply being asked to defend himself.

 

And I never said that he needed to tell the world anything. But the way in which he did choose to answer the question, does not make him look innocent.

 

I can't speak to if they had a verbal or written agreement and I'm not sure anyone else can. Sure...he could have said the arrangement was between the caddie and me and he didn't. The caddie could have said what he earned but to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't done that. The people who seem to have the biggest issues with this aren't either party and they're the two that negotiated the deal. Apparently at the time of the negotiations, both parties were satisfied with the deal so what's the issue?

 

 

"Asked if he made more money than Favela last week, Ortiz said, “I hope so!” He had not yet received or discussed his pay with Kuchar. He knows the standard caddie bonus is 10 percent of the winner’s share. Kuchar earned $1.3 million for his win, his first since 2014."

 

https://www.golf.com...-know-el-tucan/

 

 

 

Hey, you know this is interesting....

 

https://www.golfchan...addie-garcia-nc

 

 

 

"Garcia, with Faircloth alongside, rolled to a two-stroke win Monday at the Wyndham, giving the Spaniard his first title on U.S. soil in more than four years. Tony Navarro, caddie for Bud Cauley, grabbed the flag from 18 and handed it to the rookie looper.

 

“It was just a wonderful opportunity, the ride was just unbelievable, and it’s something that I’ll never forget,” Faircloth said. “It’s not every day you get to jump on the bag of one of the best in the world.”

 

Now comes the interesting part. Garcia’s victory came with a $960,000 payday. A typical caddie gets a 10 percent cut ($96,000, in this instance), but Garcia was non-committal about Faircloth’s share afterward.

 

“He’ll probably get 75 (thousand) and a tip,” Garcia said Monday, laughing, before adding, “He’s going to be happy with what he gets. Obviously he’s not going to get what a normal caddie would get, because his job was fairly easy. But he’ll be happy with whatever he gets.”

 

Of course he will. But hey, show the guy some love!"

[DavePelz4]

Also, the fact that Kuchar gave that "not 10% and not $3,000" vague answer. If he was totally innocent of this it seems like he would be more angry and say something along the lines of "I gave him a generous amount and way more than $3,000".

 

We employ several hundred people in our business and on occasion, are asked to supply personal/financial information if a team member is looking to make a significant purchase. As matter of policy, we NEVER provide any information unless the employee has given written authorization.

 

So why should Kuch tell the world what he paid someone else?

 

How is that a good comparison?

 

Do you think Kuch has a written policy on this? No, he was simply being asked to defend himself.

 

And I never said that he needed to tell the world anything. But the way in which he did choose to answer the question, does not make him look innocent.

 

I can't speak to if they had a verbal or written agreement and I'm not sure anyone else can. Sure...he could have said the arrangement was between the caddie and me and he didn't. The caddie could have said what he earned but to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't done that. The people who seem to have the biggest issues with this aren't either party and they're the two that negotiated the deal. Apparently at the time of the negotiations, both parties were satisfied with the deal so what's the issue?

 

 

"Asked if he made more money than Favela last week, Ortiz said, “I hope so!” He had not yet received or discussed his pay with Kuchar. He knows the standard caddie bonus is 10 percent of the winner’s share. Kuchar earned $1.3 million for his win, his first since 2014."

 

https://www.golf.com...-know-el-tucan/

 

 

If they didn't talk about fees ahead of the start of his service, then they're both wrong.

[daegyu]

The caddy threads are always fascinating social science studies. The majority of people seem to side with the caddies deserving more money though i've never really seen arguments why other than "the players are rich" or "the pga tour makes so much money". I assume many of your bosses, or executives at the companies you work for are rich. The CEO at your company probably makes exponentially more than you. Why don't they pay you more? The CEO of your company could give you 10,000$ tomorrow and it would be fairly meaningless to him....why doesn't he do it? Do you not work hard? Do you not need 10,000$?

 

This type of behavior, if presented as a social program....the response tends to be 180 degrees in the other direction. So i find it interesting

 

I would argue just from an economists perspective, that caddies are possibly a massive market inefficiency. Similar to runningbacks in the NFL a few years back before teams realized you shouldn't draft them high or pay them a lot. Matt Kuchar won a tournament with a 3000$ local caddy, maybe everyone else is crazy for paying them more. Is there a shortage of caddies? If all the players gave them 20% pay reductions would they all quit and find new employment and if so would quality of play suffer? We don't really know because PGA guys pay caddies a "standard" rate that seems to be based more on gentlemanly-ness than real market value. Probably because of the shaming of guys like Tom Gillis and co.

 

It's their right to pay a caddy more if they want, just like it's their right to pay them less. Pittsburgh had a better rushing attack this year with James Connor than they did with Leveon Bell, The Rams just won yesterday feeding CJ Anderson who they just signed.....and Matt Kuchar won a PGA event with a local 3000$ Caddy. Makes you think....

 

I don't think anyone has said that caddies are paid too much. Rather, the majority of pro caddies make little money. I just don't see why it is so hard to pay the standard caddie percentages to a caddie. If this was done, it would be a non-issue. I understand that Ortiz didn't communicate much with Kuchar and that Matt got his own yardages, but I hope Ortiz's pay was a lot closer to 10% than $3,000.

 

As far as CEO vs average worker pay, it's sad that workers are increasingly shut out of the profits they help make. It's not good for business and it's not good for society.

 

You can also say it's bad for business to implement profit sharing with employees who are paid a guaranteed salary and assume very little risk compared to the entrepreneurs/investors/shareholders that put time/money into a business with no guaranteed returns. If these workers want to share in the profits, they should assume more risk or give up their wages in exchange for sweat equity.

 

This thread is so polarizing because it seems like it's a microcosm of society at large. You can look at this issue 2 ways. 1) The caddie was instrumental in the win and he should have been paid the going rate (or close to it) for normal PGA Tour caddies in a win. 2) Due to different circumstances, Kuchar negotiated a different rate with his temporary caddie and paid what he thought to be fair, and according to him, what was previously agreed upon. While I'm not a fan of cheap people, I do not think it is my place to tell other people how to spend their money, and they have no requirement to be "generous" so long as they keep their word and fulfill their obligations, no matter how unfair the arrangement may be in hindsight. If the market rate for that caddie was 10%, he should have negotiated that. Whether this story is true or not, he put himself in a position to accept $3,000 for a win. At the end of the day, that's on him.

[kenstl]

Kuch, next time take an electric trolley and call it a day.

[Dpavs]

"Asked if he made more money than Favela last week, Ortiz said, “I hope so!” He had not yet received or discussed his pay with Kuchar. He knows the standard caddie bonus is 10 percent of the winner’s share. Kuchar earned $1.3 million for his win, his first since 2014."

 

https://www.golf.com...-know-el-tucan/

 

 

If they didn't talk about fees ahead of the start of his service, then they're both wrong.

 

True enough DP4, but if any of this is true, who was in the better position to be the guy who does the right thing. Sometimes in life it's not about the legal thing, it's not about what you can do... it's about what you should do, right?

[The General]

21 pages, deer lowered

[Malvern]

Is calling someone a SJW or dropping virtue signalling into a sentence the new Godwin's Law?

[Barfolomew]

Tell me its not soooo Kuuuuch!!!!

 

Cheap a** rich people are the worst.... so selfish and doesn't even effect their millions $$$$

[bscinstnct]

Is calling someone a SJW or dropping virtue signalling into a sentence the new Godwin's Law?

 

On golfwrx, all threads eventually lead to Tiger vs Jack ; )

 

The sjw dropping thing is funny. Seems like if the Statue of Liberty were a live person, people would be yelling "triggered!" at her.

[cardoustie]

Well I'd give the guy 5% and a re-hire for next year to defend. Not sure on what others would do

 

I do agree with the spread of the haves and have nots .. in the USA and Canada and ??? ... growing wider and wider annually will be an ever more thorny societal issue moving forward

[MilkyButterCuts]

Also, the fact that Kuchar gave that "not 10% and not $3,000" vague answer. If he was totally innocent of this it seems like he would be more angry and say something along the lines of "I gave him a generous amount and way more than $3,000".

 

We employ several hundred people in our business and on occasion, are asked to supply personal/financial information if a team member is looking to make a significant purchase. As matter of policy, we NEVER provide any information unless the employee has given written authorization.

 

So why should Kuch tell the world what he paid someone else?

 

How is that a good comparison?

 

Do you think Kuch has a written policy on this? No, he was simply being asked to defend himself.

 

And I never said that he needed to tell the world anything. But the way in which he did choose to answer the question, does not make him look innocent.

 

I can't speak to if they had a verbal or written agreement and I'm not sure anyone else can. Sure...he could have said the arrangement was between the caddie and me and he didn't. The caddie could have said what he earned but to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't done that. The people who seem to have the biggest issues with this aren't either party and they're the two that negotiated the deal. Apparently at the time of the negotiations, both parties were satisfied with the deal so what's the issue?

 

 

"Asked if he made more money than Favela last week, Ortiz said, “I hope so!” He had not yet received or discussed his pay with Kuchar. He knows the standard caddie bonus is 10 percent of the winner’s share. Kuchar earned $1.3 million for his win, his first since 2014."

 

https://www.golf.com...-know-el-tucan/

 

 

 

Hey, you know this is interesting....

 

https://www.golfchan...addie-garcia-nc

 

 

 

"Garcia, with Faircloth alongside, rolled to a two-stroke win Monday at the Wyndham, giving the Spaniard his first title on U.S. soil in more than four years. Tony Navarro, caddie for Bud Cauley, grabbed the flag from 18 and handed it to the rookie looper.

 

“It was just a wonderful opportunity, the ride was just unbelievable, and it’s something that I’ll never forget,” Faircloth said. “It’s not every day you get to jump on the bag of one of the best in the world.”

 

Now comes the interesting part. Garcia’s victory came with a $960,000 payday. A typical caddie gets a 10 percent cut ($96,000, in this instance), but Garcia was non-committal about Faircloth’s share afterward.

 

“He’ll probably get 75 (thousand) and a tip,” Garcia said Monday, laughing, before adding, “He’s going to be happy with what he gets. Obviously he’s not going to get what a normal caddie would get, because his job was fairly easy. But he’ll be happy with whatever he gets.”

 

Of course he will. But hey, show the guy some love!"

 

You know its bad when Sergio out does you.

[DavePelz4]

"Asked if he made more money than Favela last week, Ortiz said, “I hope so!” He had not yet received or discussed his pay with Kuchar. He knows the standard caddie bonus is 10 percent of the winner’s share. Kuchar earned $1.3 million for his win, his first since 2014."

 

https://www.golf.com...-know-el-tucan/

 

 

If they didn't talk about fees ahead of the start of his service, then they're both wrong.

 

True enough DP4, but if any of this is true, who was in the better position to be the guy who does the right thing. Sometimes in life it's not about the legal thing, it's not about what you can do... it's about what you should do, right?

 

Assuming everything stated is accurate, without a doubt Kuch had a chance to do the right thing if they never talked about the caddie fees. Hopefully the entire truth will come out or more importantly, that the caddie is OK with what he earned for his service.

[Dpavs]

"Asked if he made more money than Favela last week, Ortiz said, “I hope so!” He had not yet received or discussed his pay with Kuchar. He knows the standard caddie bonus is 10 percent of the winner’s share. Kuchar earned $1.3 million for his win, his first since 2014."

 

https://www.golf.com...-know-el-tucan/

 

 

If they didn't talk about fees ahead of the start of his service, then they're both wrong.

 

True enough DP4, but if any of this is true, who was in the better position to be the guy who does the right thing. Sometimes in life it's not about the legal thing, it's not about what you can do... it's about what you should do, right?

 

Assuming everything stated is accurate, without a doubt Kuch had a chance to do the right thing if they never talked about the caddie fees. Hopefully the entire truth will come out or more importantly, that the caddie is OK with what he earned for his service.

 

I totally agree. Though to me it's not as much as with whether the guy was OK with whatever transpired, but whether he was treated fairly. That's the bottom line to me.

[Hawkeye77]

"Asked if he made more money than Favela last week, Ortiz said, “I hope so!” He had not yet received or discussed his pay with Kuchar. He knows the standard caddie bonus is 10 percent of the winner’s share. Kuchar earned $1.3 million for his win, his first since 2014."

 

https://www.golf.com...-know-el-tucan/

 

 

If they didn't talk about fees ahead of the start of his service, then they're both wrong.

 

True enough DP4, but if any of this is true, who was in the better position to be the guy who does the right thing. Sometimes in life it's not about the legal thing, it's not about what you can do... it's about what you should do, right?

 

Assuming everything stated is accurate, without a doubt Kuch had a chance to do the right thing if they never talked about the caddie fees. Hopefully the entire truth will come out or more importantly, that the caddie is OK with what he earned for his service.

 

I totally agree. Though to me it's not as much as with whether the guy was OK with whatever transpired, but whether he was treated fairly. That's the bottom line to me.

 

But your definition of "fairly" is irrelevant.

[Fade]

I would not be surprised if his regular tour-caddie received much more for the Mayakoba win than the stand-in.

[lowheel]

Also, the fact that Kuchar gave that "not 10% and not $3,000" vague answer. If he was totally innocent of this it seems like he would be more angry and say something along the lines of "I gave him a generous amount and way more than $3,000".

 

We employ several hundred people in our business and on occasion, are asked to supply personal/financial information if a team member is looking to make a significant purchase. As matter of policy, we NEVER provide any information unless the employee has given written authorization.

 

So why should Kuch tell the world what he paid someone else?

 

How is that a good comparison?

 

Do you think Kuch has a written policy on this? No, he was simply being asked to defend himself.

 

And I never said that he needed to tell the world anything. But the way in which he did choose to answer the question, does not make him look innocent.

 

I can't speak to if they had a verbal or written agreement and I'm not sure anyone else can. Sure...he could have said the arrangement was between the caddie and me and he didn't. The caddie could have said what he earned but to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't done that. The people who seem to have the biggest issues with this aren't either party and they're the two that negotiated the deal. Apparently at the time of the negotiations, both parties were satisfied with the deal so what's the issue?

 

Social justice and virtue signaling are the goal.

 

[lowheel]

Given the information one can presume only this:

1) Kuchar is innocent of the original accusation of only 3k. (Most likely the original agreement + a 2k tip)

2) Kuchar did not lie in his statement

3) Gillis is a DB

4) People need to mind their OFB.

 

#4 should be #1 which renders the other 3 useless

[Under2hours]

Again one of the top players in the world offers you a 3-4 weeks salary ($3,000) to carry his bag for 4 days. Who are you to say no? Kuch knew it was a cheap move and then bumped it to $5,000 when he won......

 

Seems pretty obvious to me that he screwed the guy.

 

Should have made it right when he won (and I bet as said before that $30,000 and no one says diddly.

[lowheel]

Tom Gillis in a nutshell...

 

[Krt22]

I love threads like this. 21 pages of griping how other's spend their money.

 

My only two cents is I'm not sure how one would think a temp stand in should be compensated like a normal tour caddy. A normal tour caddy has to travel, pay for accommodations, scouts the course, helps put the yardage book together, etc etc etc. A lot more work and overhead involved vs a guy that is already there ready to carry the bag. Not to mention their guy doesn't win every week (or at all for some), doesnt make every cut, etc. So that 10% for a win gets amortized over the entire season. Look at poor Joey Lacava =P

[lowheel]

https://twitter.com/...7243993089?s=19

 

Now the guy who posted the picture is saying:

 

"marcgraubart 2h Replying to @tcgillis

 

Actually upon further clarification this morning, Kuchar @GoodGuyKuchar paid him $3,000 for the week and gave a paltry $2,000 tip for the wind. Stiffed the locker room people as well.

·

3h Replying to @tcgillis

From the horse's mouth. True!!"

 

For the people saying we don't have evidence, I get it. But unless this random guy is lying, he claims that the caddy himself is testifying to this.

 

It's not proof at this point but I'd say it's the smoke of the fire.

 

Also, the fact that Kuchar gave that "not 10% and not $3,000" vague answer. If he was totally innocent of this it seems like he would be more angry and say something along the lines of "I gave him a generous amount and way more than $3,000".

 

So, again, no proof or hard evidence. But common sense still points to the story being most likely true. What motive do Gillis and this random guy on Twitter have to lie?

 

[Krt22]

Simple common sense man, no way folks have motive to smear athletes/celebrities/etc

[braincramp52]

Again one of the top players in the world offers you a 3-4 weeks salary ($3,000) to carry his bag for 4 days. Who are you to say no? Kuch knew it was a cheap move and then bumped it to $5,000 when he won......

 

Seems pretty obvious to me that he screwed the guy.

 

Should have made it right when he won (and I bet as said before that $30,000 and no one says diddly.

 

How is it obvious that he screwed the guy when no one really knows the facts. Twitter has taken us back to the days of the wild west when mobs would hang people they thought were guilty with no evidence at all. And in this case even if he did what the snitch Gillis said he didn't it wasn't illegal. Maybe the caddy sucked and basically just carried his bag.