Interesting development - $3000 pay to caddy from a $1.3 million winners check? (MOD EDIT - NO POLIT

[wobgon]

Lol - wobgon asking a question which has no answer.

 

Someone thinks they do...

 

 

"Been in direct contact with El Tucan now for a few days," Gillis wrote. "He did receive a total of 5k. Not 3k after tournament. Still only 0.0023% percent of check. Fortunately there's no more middle man. Stay tuned hopefully he gets paid properly"

 

https://www.todaysgo...-caddie-story-/

I would rather get my info from plaid shorts guy than Gillis.....At least we have a pic of the two of them together.

 

Wow - you really hate Gillis.

 

How come? I'd never heard of him before this.

 

I just can't see trusting a random tourist over a Tour Pro. The guy's made over $5 million on Tour. He knows stuff about life there.

 

But you're going with plaid shorts guy? It can't be the shorts, so what is it about him?

What does how much Gillis made on tour have to do with this......Means nothing to me, just like how much Kuchar has made on tour has no relevance.

[bscinstnct]

The craziest part of his whole thing is, the caddy is a grown man who has been involved with golf for a long time. If he has a problem with this, he should take action on his own behalf.....What in the world does Tom Gillis have to do with this......I have lots of problems. I handle them the best I can. The last thing I want is some nit wit on twitter getting involved.

 

"In vino veritas" ; )

 

Caddie prolly wouldnt have said a word himself. Who knows how gillis even found out? And youd think that the club/tournament people would have told toucan not to talk about it.

 

But there he is posing with plaid shorts on that very course for the world to see! Lol.

 

Cheers, wobgon.

[North Texas]

I got a sneaking suspicion the tighter than a tick, get off my yard, I don't have a 5er on me I'll get you next time crowd may also have some crossover into the It's None of Our Business Camp.

 

Once again, no material evidence. Just a suspicion. Call it a hunch.

 

Well, at least you admit you have no facts to back up your suspicion.

[Matt J]

The craziest part of his whole thing is, the caddy is a grown man who has been involved with golf for a long time. If he has a problem with this, he should take action on his own behalf.....What in the world does Tom Gillis have to do with this......I have lots of problems. I handle them the best I can. The last thing I want is some nit wit on twitter getting involved. By the way, I don't know Gillis and certainly do not hate him.

 

According to the articles and interviews that are available at this time the only other time that David Ortiz has caddied in a professional tournament it was at the OHL Mayakoba in 2017 when he caddied for Alex Cejka who placed T-9 and made $177,500.

 

If Cejka was fair to Ortiz and gave him the base plus the bump, perhaps that even better makes the case that Ortiz was blindsided by Kuch.

 

Mayakoba El Cameleon was only built in 2006, so at the very most he has had 13 years of resort caddie experience and has caddied in 1 professional tournament. That's hardly a "ton of experience" as a tour caddie.

[DavePelz4]

The craziest part of his whole thing is, the caddy is a grown man who has been involved with golf for a long time. If he has a problem with this, he should take action on his own behalf.....What in the world does Tom Gillis have to do with this......I have lots of problems. I handle them the best I can. The last thing I want is some nit wit on twitter getting involved.

 

"In vino veritas" ; )

 

 

Best idea in this thread. I'm ready for some vino. It's 5 o'clock...somewhere, right?

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Kuchar didn't find the caddy...course did. The course was likely involved in communicating to Kuchar what the cost for the caddy would be (little English for caddy) for the tournament (Let's assume $3,000). So, a fee of $3,000 and a tip of $2,000 is over a 65% tip!

• This is not a normal Player/Caddy situation where it's part of the job to usually get a percentage of the winnings on top of the daily salary.
  
• El Tucan did not likely do anything more than he would in his regular job.
  
• Kuchar and El Tucan were not business partners in this venture.
  
• El Tucan was a casual laborer arranged by the Golf Course.
  

When looked at under the normal Player/Caddy partnership, yah this looks bad. Kuchar could have gave more, but is it not similar to this?

 

I arrange to have an important business meeting at a high end steak house. I call the restaurant ahead of time and explain the situation. I would like a private room and best waiter you have so that everything can go well. Night goes great, I sign a business deal for over $1 million and I'm happy with the work the restaurant and waiter did. Bill came to $3,000. I leave a $5,000...that's over a 65% tip. But now my colleges look down on me because I didn't give the waiter/restaurant 10% of my $1 Million dollar deal? The waiter made the night go smooth, made the clients feel at ease and even told me to relax and take a breath at one point during my presentation. To some here, I know owe the waiter $100,000???

 

Same analogy fits for me playing in a big money game on the golf course while using a resort course caddy. Does he now get a percentage of my winnings?

Bumping this ^^^^

More people should read this before commenting further.

 

 

I think a few details have been left out of that analogy that are crucial to the narrative.

 

--You have your own service staff that normally travels with you, but cannot due to an illness

--Your normal service staff is paid a pre-determined % for all closed deals. Let's say it's 5% for deals under $100k, 10% if over $1MM

--This % is a standard in your industry. All staff in your industry are paid a % of closed deals

--It's customary at this steakhouse in the private rooms that there is a negotiated flat fee for the service staff, but again, it's commonly known a % is paid for closed deals

--The steakhouse negotiates a flat fee for their staff after looking at your closing record (somehow they have this info) and sees you haven't closed a deal in over 4 years. The staff is ok with the fixed rate as they give you a ~1% chance of closing the deal. (over 4 years of ~30 meetings a year=~120-130 meetings between closings)

--The staff figures $3k for 2 days work is fair, this guy has no chance of closing the deal. Easy money that's 2x what they usually make

--The staff ends up working 8-10 hours a day for 5 days.

--You crush the meeting and close the deal for $1.3MM with the help of your staff. You could've prepared the food yourself, plated it, served it, and cleared while giving the presentation, but you chose to receive help.

--You are thrilled with the result and give a 65% tip to the staff.

 

--Contractually, you've fulfilled your commitment with the staff according to the pre-negotiated agreement, and provided a great tip.

--A staff member that was let go years ago because of poor performance is still friends with the current staff and feels the need to publicly out you as they feel you stiffed the staff.

--You respond to the criticism by denying it was only $3k but not providing an actual amount. ($5k is .38 %)

 

Should you give the staff a professionally accepted standard % or are you just a shrewd businessman? In my eyes this is the only relevant question.

 

 

*feel free to correct and dissect the above narrative as I'm no snowflake. Discourse is good.

 

Nice thoughtful analogy but I'd disagree about its fit with Kutchergate. A better fitting one would be lets say, a business consultant golfing with the CEO of a fortune 500 company. The consultants golf outing is his time to convince the CEO to hire him for $1.5M deal. The course assigns them each a caddy and go out as a twosome. By the 18th hole the CEO tells the consultant that he's impressed and wants to sign the contract on the 18th green. Does the consultant owe the caddy more than a decent tip? Does it change if they play multiple days together with the same caddys?

 

Perhaps the caddy was awesome and he really helped foster a group dynamic that helped the consultant impress the CEO. Does the consultant owe the caddy extra? Morally no but in my world it would be an extra generous tip, but NO WAY is it going to be 10% of the deal or even 1% of the deal.

[wobgon]

The craziest part of his whole thing is, the caddy is a grown man who has been involved with golf for a long time. If he has a problem with this, he should take action on his own behalf.....What in the world does Tom Gillis have to do with this......I have lots of problems. I handle them the best I can. The last thing I want is some nit wit on twitter getting involved. By the way, I don't know Gillis and certainly do not hate him.

 

According to the articles and interviews that are available at this time the only other time that David Ortiz has caddied in a professional tournament it was at the OHL Mayakoba in 2017 when he caddied for Alex Cejka who placed T-9 and made $177,500.

 

If Cejka was fair to Ortiz and gave him the base plus the bump, perhaps that even better makes the case that Ortiz was blindsided by Kuch.

 

Mayakoba El Cameleon was only built in 2006, so at the very most he has had 13 years of resort caddie experience and has caddied in 1 professional tournament. That's hardly a "ton of experience" as a tour caddie.

I didn't mean that he had a lot of tour caddy experience, just that he has been around golf, and more than anything else, my point was that he is an adult and should be able to handle his own affairs. It would be really interesting to know just what all did go on in this crazy situation, and who said and did what. Doubt that we will ever know, and not sure we really should know......One thing I do know is, I need more than what Tom Gillis says to form an opinion on who was right and who was wrong.

[wobgon]

I would really like to know what actually happened. Has anyone checked to see what Buzzfeed has to say?

[Lagavulin62]

Maybe thats what he wanted reported to the IRS? How do we know he didn’t then give him a cash gift?

[Matt J]

Maybe thats what he wanted reported to the IRS? How do we know he didn't then give him a cash gift?

 

Because he wouldn't be complaining to anyone who will listen?

[MtlJeff]

Maybe thats what he wanted reported to the IRS? How do we know he didn't then give him a cash gift?

 

Because he wouldn't be complaining to anyone who will listen?

 

Again, I've missed a lot but is Toucan Sam complaining or just plaid shorts guy and Tom Gillis on behalf of him?

[Lagavulin62]

Maybe thats what he wanted reported to the IRS? How do we know he didn't then give him a cash gift?

 

Because he wouldn't be complaining to anyone who will listen?

 

Ah me didn’t read the whole thread. Haha

[Lagavulin62]

Great putt.

[Matt J]

Great putt.

 

I'm guessing you're talking about Adam Long?

 

Get it together man! :)

 

Hope you're having a good Sunday.

[Hawkeye77]

Lol - wobgon asking a question which has no answer.

 

Someone thinks they do...

 

 

"Been in direct contact with El Tucan now for a few days," Gillis wrote. "He did receive a total of 5k. Not 3k after tournament. Still only 0.0023% percent of check. Fortunately there's no more middle man. Stay tuned hopefully he gets paid properly"

 

https://Not allowed Per Todaysgolfer's UK request/news-and-events/tour-news/2019/january/matt-kuchar-caddie-story-/

 

So he is basically admitting he had it wrong when he spouted off the first time? Wonder what his story will be next week?

 

He’s a regular Tom Hagen this Gillis. Counseling his man through a sticky situation.

 

Hope he doesn't have a pet named Khartoum!

[bscinstnct]

Lol - wobgon asking a question which has no answer.

 

Someone thinks they do...

 

 

"Been in direct contact with El Tucan now for a few days," Gillis wrote. "He did receive a total of 5k. Not 3k after tournament. Still only 0.0023% percent of check. Fortunately there's no more middle man. Stay tuned hopefully he gets paid properly"

 

https://Not allowed Per Todaysgolfer's UK request/news-and-events/tour-news/2019/january/matt-kuchar-caddie-story-/

 

So he is basically admitting he had it wrong when he spouted off the first time? Wonder what his story will be next week?

 

He’s a regular Tom Hagen this Gillis. Counseling his man through a sticky situation.

 

Hope he doesn't have a pet named Khartoum!

 

Lol

 

/thread

[Lagavulin62]

Great putt.

 

I'm guessing you're talking about Adam Long?

 

Get it together man! :)

 

Hope you're having a good Sunday.

 

 

 

Oh great for him. But always a Phil man. He had a great tournament and maybe he can defend in Mexico?

[Krt22]

I will unambiguously say that I would have more respect for Kuch if he revealed the terms of the agreement between himself and the caddie.

 

Honestly, I can see the argument for both sides, but I do not fit into the "Kuch doesn't owe anyone an answer" camp.

 

Despite the lack of relevant information, it is clear to me that between Gillis's source and the guy in the plaid shorts that Ortiz feels he has been wronged. Both his account of what transpired and Kuch's would help clear the air.

 

I understand the sentiment that it was a business deal between two men, but ultimately there was a miscommunication or someone is being dishonest and that's when the details must be addressed.

 

I think had Kuch been more clear, i.e. the agreement was for $3,000 for the week in base with no bonus and I chose to give him a $2,000 bonus because that was what was left in my wallet before I jumped on the plane, then at least his side of the story would be on record.

 

Played golf with a friend yesterday that has been a resort caddie at some prestigious places with some tour caddies and he said unequivocally a resort caddie that picked up a bag in an event would expect the 10% bonus.

 

I think that's where some of you guys are missing the mark. If the "culture" of the PGA TOUR is that the bonus is paid then Kuch would have needed to have expressly told Ortiz, you will not receive any bonus regardless of my finish.

 

My friend also said he thought it would be very likely that the caddies would be unified in no one picking up the bag if that was stated. So, had Kuch told Ortiz, you will not receive the bonus he might have had his wife on the bag for all 4 rounds. Maybe one of the multitude of WRX'ers who gladly said they would have carried the bag would have done so for $3,000 and maybe Kuch would have still won? Having met up with some WRX'ers I don't know how many of you would have made it around Mayakoba with a tour bag 5 times in 5 days.

 

The strangest thing is that you seem to believe that Kucher owes you an explanation so you can judge his actions. That's a bit beyond the pale.

 

Well, that's like your opinion, man :)

 

We are all entitled to them.

 

In my mind when you choose to make your money in the public arena, you expose yourself to the opinions of the general public.

 

The guy takes a ton of money in endorsements and purses. If those companies want my support and dollars then they are subject to my opinion. I explain myself to clients everyday. I think they are entitled to those explanations. Maybe Kuch, the PGA TOUR, Skechers, Bridgestone, et al. don't want my business and don't want to provide an explanation. That's fine. My point is that if they do want my dollars then they owe me an explanation that is plausible.

 

Yeah they don't give a you know what about you or your opinion of kuch. Demanding someone make their private financial matters Public to satisfy internet trolls smh

 

[flip flappy]

So don't build decks for that contractor. No one is forcing you to.

I absolutely knew I would get this response. I no longer do work for him. No one was forcing El Tucan to caddie for Kuch either. I, by the way, have numerous other contractors I do work for and was never exclusive to the cheapskate. The thing was, his work filled gaps from my other builders and his project managers were great guys who treated me great. Eight years ago I picked up another company that builds even more than said cheapskate and I had more work than I could keep up with. I ended up telling the cheapskate I had too much work and since he was the cheapest, he needed to find him another deck man. He asked if there was anything he could do and I gave him a response that is not printable here. That bridge was definitely burned. My contractors I work for now make me feel like they appreciate me. Something that I never felt with the cheapskate and I'm guessing that El Tucan is familiar with. Who know's though?

[North Texas]

The craziest part of his whole thing is, the caddy is a grown man who has been involved with golf for a long time. If he has a problem with this, he should take action on his own behalf.....What in the world does Tom Gillis have to do with this......I have lots of problems. I handle them the best I can. The last thing I want is some nit wit on twitter getting involved.

 

"In vino veritas" ; )

 

 

Best idea in this thread. I'm ready for some vino. It's 5 o'clock...somewhere, right?

 

Friends and family over for dinner and drank some Austin Hope and a couple of bottles of Walt pinot noir. Good stuff.

[CasualLie]

How much should I tip on this? After all, I don't even know which cashier took the bet. The cashier wasn't instrumental in my selections. I'm sure I detected a smirk at my pics even though he offered drink tickets!

 

Anyway, I know what I tip when the ticket is paid; I share my good fortune generously.

 

 

[ebrasmus21]

How much should I tip on this? After all, I don't even know which cashier took the bet. The cashier wasn't instrumental in my selections. I'm sure I detected a smirk at my pics even though he offered drink tickets!

 

Anyway, I know what I tip when the ticket is paid; I share my good fortune generously.

 

 

 

ZERO f****** DOLLARS. SCREW THE TIP!!!

[mizuno player]

I've never seen people so up in arms about what someone was paid. I seriously doubt Kuch said he would pay him 10% if he won and then reneged. They had an agreement, in my opinion and it was accepted. ( Sorry did not read the entire thread. If there wasn't an agreement then I'll chalk it up to pain killers.)

[Krt22]

I've never seen people so up in arms about what someone was paid. I seriously doubt Kuch said he would pay him 10% if he won and then reneged. They had an agreement, in my opinion and it was accepted. ( Sorry did not read the entire thread. If there wasn't an agreement then I'll chalk it up to pain killers.)

 

Get out of here with such objective logic. Being morally right is more important than being factually correct

[Matt J]

The caddie claimed in an interview with a Golf magazine reporter that there was no arrangement. Link posted earlier today.

 

Shhhh... don't tell the "there are no facts, Kuch is too nice to stiff a Mexican caddie" camp.

[Matt J]

I've never seen people so up in arms about what someone was paid. I seriously doubt Kuch said he would pay him 10% if he won and then reneged. They had an agreement, in my opinion and it was accepted. ( Sorry did not read the entire thread. If there wasn't an agreement then I'll chalk it up to pain killers.)

 

Get out of here with such objective logic. Being morally right is more important than being factually correct

 

Or making up your own facts to fit the narrative you prefer. Either one, really.

[Krt22]

I've never seen people so up in arms about what someone was paid. I seriously doubt Kuch said he would pay him 10% if he won and then reneged. They had an agreement, in my opinion and it was accepted. ( Sorry did not read the entire thread. If there wasn't an agreement then I'll chalk it up to pain killers.)

 

Get out of here with such objective logic. Being morally right is more important than being factually correct

 

Or making up your own facts to fit the narrative you prefer. Either one, really.

 

Such as?

 

I'm waiting.

[ebrasmus21]

I've never seen people so up in arms about what someone was paid. I seriously doubt Kuch said he would pay him 10% if he won and then reneged. They had an agreement, in my opinion and it was accepted. ( Sorry did not read the entire thread. If there wasn't an agreement then I'll chalk it up to pain killers.)

 

Get out of here with such objective logic. Being morally right is more important than being factually correct

 

Or making up your own facts to fit the narrative you prefer. Either one, really.

 

Such as?

 

I'm waiting.

 

Kr- there might be some friendly-fire going on. Based on this thread I’d have to say you and our Canadian friend are largely on the same team.

 

Jeff, KR, please correct me if I’m wrong.

[RSinSG]

I would really like to know what actually happened. Has anyone checked to see what Buzzfeed has to say?

 

I checked Snopes. Nothing on there so obviously this is all a bunch of BS.

[Krt22]

Kr- there might be some friendly-fire going on. Based on this thread I'd have to say you and our Canadian friend are largely on the same team.

 

Jeff, KR, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I think you are confusing MTLJeff with this fellow Matt J. I'd buy MTLJeff a molsen any day of the week. I can't ever agree with someone who thinks a because someone makes their living in "the public arena" they should cave and make their private affairs public due to social media pressure. And then to expand on that, felt so entitled to the details of their private dealings for no other reason than they MIGHT be a customer. That's one of the biggest heaps of cow dung I've read in quite sometime.

 

In my mind when you choose to make your money in the public arena, you expose yourself to the opinions of the general public.

 

The guy takes a ton of money in endorsements and purses. If those companies want my support and dollars then they are subject to my opinion. I explain myself to clients everyday. I think they are entitled to those explanations. Maybe Kuch, the PGA TOUR, Skechers, Bridgestone, et al. don't want my business and don't want to provide an explanation. That's fine. My point is that if they do want my dollars then they owe me an explanation that is plausible.