El Tucan Speaks..... (NO POLITICS)

[TheLarch]

I understand Kuchar has inquired how much Ship Sticks would charge to ship this south of the border.

[N8dogg2669]

Funny to see how eager some people are to spend other people's money... I learned 3 things from this thread. Kuchar is Cheap, Tucan needs a better negotiating tactic, and Gillis continues to be a dbag.

[datrain711]

If I were a tour player, I would make it a point to never use a local caddie, especially in a foreign country. Seems better to not even show up than risk this type of BS.

 

Kuchar....hmm although this tournament looks inviting, I don't want to go there and risk actually winning because then i'd have to pay a local a little more than a fractional percentage of what I give my normal guy. logic FTW!!

[J9293]

Are we missing the notion that all of this is rooted in Free Market Economics...with basic Supply and Demand being the drivers?

 

If $3K-$5k (or whatever the number) was pre-negotiated...Tucan had the opportunity to decline...and Kuchar would have gone to the next Caddie in line.

 

Ask yourselves if the next Caddie in line would have turned down the pre-negotiated money. If your answer is "Yes" the next Caddie would have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken...and Kuchar would have been forced to offer more pay for Caddie Services.

 

If the answer is "No" the next Caddie would NOT have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken. At that point...Market Rates would have been established at $3K-$5K for the job..

 

Tucan accepted the pre-negotiated amount...and an Agreement was struck.

 

Everything that happens next is irrelevant. The "Deal" had already been struck.

 

Going back and asking for more money after the Services are rendered is fine. Perfectly normal.

 

Expecting more money after the Services are rendered is irrational...and not a part of the original Deal.

 

Clearly the point everyone is trying to make is flying way above your head.

 

He arrogantly mentioned that $5k is a big deal for him and should be happy with it. He won $1.3M and has $50M sitting in the bank yet doesn’t feel at all inclined to help a guy out and give a decent tip. Another few thousand wouldn’t impact Kuchar in the slightest but would be pretty impactful for the caddie.

[J9293]

Are we missing the notion that all of this is rooted in Free Market Economics...with basic Supply and Demand being the drivers?

 

If $3K-$5k (or whatever the number) was pre-negotiated...Tucan had the opportunity to decline...and Kuchar would have gone to the next Caddie in line.

 

Ask yourselves if the next Caddie in line would have turned down the pre-negotiated money. If your answer is "Yes" the next Caddie would have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken...and Kuchar would have been forced to offer more pay for Caddie Services.

 

If the answer is "No" the next Caddie would NOT have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken. At that point...Market Rates would have been established at $3K-$5K for the job..

 

Tucan accepted the pre-negotiated amount...and an Agreement was struck.

 

Everything that happens next is irrelevant. The "Deal" had already been struck.

 

Going back and asking for more money after the Services are rendered is fine. Perfectly normal.

 

Expecting more money after the Services are rendered is irrational...and not a part of the original Deal.

 

Clearly the point everyone is trying to make is flying way above your head.

 

He arrogantly mentioned that $5k is a big deal for him and should be happy with it. He won $1.3M and has $50M sitting in the bank yet doesn’t feel at all inclined to help a guy out and give a decent tip. Another few thousand wouldn’t impact Kuchar in the slightest but would be pretty impactful for the caddie.

[J9293]

Exactly. This is bigger than Kuchar and bigger than golf. It's about greed and the hoarding of wealth. Its about 1% of the richest people owning more than half of the world's wealth. Kuchar is now the poster boy for this in golf and I will bet the harrassment at tourneys will go on and on and on. Just watch.

 

lol you cant make this stuff up..

 

 

The fact that this guys thinks Kuch is in the top 1% of wealth is pure gold.

 

Ironic that you put a GIF of Jordan who is a notoriously bad ripper and cheapskate.

[Rob G 89]

wonder if any of his endorsers will invoke the morals clause in his contract to separate themselves from him?

[Railroading13]

I'll never root for Kucher again... He was only going to pay 5k, his agent offered the other 15k to keep him quiet, that's just lame and borderline inhumane... 2.5-5% would be acceptable, that's just embarrassing, is Kucher broke or something? I just don't get that mindset. On top of everything, I don't think he wins without that caddie, just my opinion

[gunmetal]

Michael Collins just said Kuchar is "the biggest phony on tour" on his podcast yesterday Matty and the Caddie. Given that Collins is a former Caddie, I'm guessing this struck a chord.

 

Yikes.

[gunmetal]

Are we missing the notion that all of this is rooted in Free Market Economics...with basic Supply and Demand being the drivers?

 

If $3K-$5k (or whatever the number) was pre-negotiated...Tucan had the opportunity to decline...and Kuchar would have gone to the next Caddie in line.

 

Ask yourselves if the next Caddie in line would have turned down the pre-negotiated money. If your answer is "Yes" the next Caddie would have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken...and Kuchar would have been forced to offer more pay for Caddie Services.

 

If the answer is "No" the next Caddie would NOT have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken. At that point...Market Rates would have been established at $3K-$5K for the job..

 

Tucan accepted the pre-negotiated amount...and an Agreement was struck.

 

Everything that happens next is irrelevant. The "Deal" had already been struck.

 

Going back and asking for more money after the Services are rendered is fine. Perfectly normal.

 

Expecting more money after the Services are rendered is irrational...and not a part of the original Deal.

 

Assuming that all of those claims are factual (big assumption), you are 100% accurate. And Kuchar STILL comes off pretty badly. He "negotiates" (presumably in English) a horrible deal for a guy he knows is going to say yes to whatever he offers. It's a real bad look that is coming back to bite him in the butt no matter how you slice it.

[soregongolfer]

Would this even be a story if the caddie were white and at a course in the US? I doubt it. Would it be a story if Kuchar were a different race? I doubt it. Seems like the narrative that is driving the controversy is "rich white guy stiffs poor Latino guy" or " rich white guy fails to take opportunity to do something special to change the life of poor Latino guy".

 

At the end of the day, both parties are adults and contracted for something. The logic behind criticizing the amount paid to the caddie would be akin to going to a car lot and berating someone who you felt got too good of a deal or didn't pay enough to allow the salesman enough of a commission.

 

Kuch never would have lowballed a white guy at a course in the US. That's something nobody is talking about. Michael Wilbon from Pardon The Interruption just said he talked to two PGA players who were outraged by Kuchar's actions. They're right. Personally, it shocks me that anybody could back Kuchar.

[RhytmEarl]

If I was Matt or Matt's PR guy this is what I'd say in a press release:

 

"After careful consideration and discussion with my family and friends I have come to realize I have been mistaken in my handling of the matter at hand. I'd like to extend an offer to David Ortiz of $130,000 and would be honoured if he would be on my bag next year when I come back to defend my championship. I'd also like to thank my fans and the public in general for helping me in making this decision. I handled the issue incorrectly and extend my apology to David. Golf is a game that values above all else the honesty and integrity of its players and I was unfaithful to these principles. In that light I would also like to offer an apology to the fans around the world. "

 

Done and finished. Now everyone can forget about it and move on.

[rangersgoalie]

I certainly hope that Crenshaw paid Carl Jackson $10,800 for his 84 Masters win and $39,600 for his 95 Masters win. Anything less would be a travesty.

 

Carl was also caddying on tour ie a tour caddy as well as Augusta caddy

[rangersgoalie]

Would this even be a story if the caddie were white and at a course in the US? I doubt it. Would it be a story if Kuchar were a different race? I doubt it. Seems like the narrative that is driving the controversy is "rich white guy stiffs poor Latino guy" or " rich white guy fails to take opportunity to do something special to change the life of poor Latino guy".

 

At the end of the day, both parties are adults and contracted for something. The logic behind criticizing the amount paid to the caddie would be akin to going to a car lot and berating someone who you felt got too good of a deal or didn't pay enough to allow the salesman enough of a commission.

 

If in the US, Kuchar would have ponied a minimum of $50,000.. The $5,000 is because he is a Mexican.

 

Yeah, that’s fair

[Forged4ever]

https://deadspin.com/extremely-rich-golfer-matt-kuchar-defends-stiffing-his-1832620093/amp

 

Fairways & Greens My Friends⛳️

RP

[ironmikes]

Would this even be a story if the caddie were white and at a course in the US? I doubt it. Would it be a story if Kuchar were a different race? I doubt it. Seems like the narrative that is driving the controversy is "rich white guy stiffs poor Latino guy" or " rich white guy fails to take opportunity to do something special to change the life of poor Latino guy".

 

At the end of the day, both parties are adults and contracted for something. The logic behind criticizing the amount paid to the caddie would be akin to going to a car lot and berating someone who you felt got too good of a deal or didn't pay enough to allow the salesman enough of a commission.

 

Kuch never would have lowballed a white guy at a course in the US. That's something nobody is talking about. Michael Wilbon from Pardon The Interruption just said he talked to two PGA players who were outraged by Kuchar's actions. They're right. Personally, it shocks me that anybody could back Kuchar.

 

 

great points you have there. funny how people skip over some of the details. would love to see some PGA stars speak out , it is the least they should do.

[HitEmTrue]

Not sure what relevance it really has...but Kuchar is certainly top 1% in annual income, and I'd imagine top 1% in net worth, too.

[soap1984]

Yeah how anyone can support kuchar and not call him cheap in this is beyond me. Kuchar took advantage of the situation by negotiating a somewhat nebulous and unfair deal; only a bad guy would make this deal. If he paid his actual caddie 5 grand everyone on here would also think it was fine if that was the arrangement; all that means is you think every caddie is overpaid. This may be a good argument since kuchar pulled a guy off the street in Mexico and won his first tournament in 4+ years. So either El toucan is an excellent caddie, or they have almost no impact on their players finish. Either way, there has to be some kind of reasonableness in this whole thing.

 

Unfortunately for kuchar there are standards that people abide by; other players and caddies agree - based on his response it just reinforces that he is just not a good guy. Even if he had a deal, the caddie clearly did something and contributed to the win winning. Even if kuchar was a pos, which it seems he is, you'd think he'd at least have the common sense to deal with this and just write the guy a check once the story broke to try and bury the story. Instead he doubles down and makes himself look like a complete tool. $5k is a lot to you peasants ... Real Smooth Matty. Not only is he cheap and a jerk, he is also stupid.

[jmvargas]

I don't see anything good coming out of this as far as Matt Kuchar is concerned...and deservedly so!

[Brass_Bullseye]

“5k is a good week” is an idiotic thing to say. My god Matt.

 

I'd take 5k for 4-6 days of work!

 

When the going rate is $120,000 for that week based on 50 years of historical precedent, that would be a poor decision.

[knickerbocker]

I think $50,000 is too much for a local stand-in caddie, but he was offered $4000 for a top 20 (which he agreed), then Matt should have shipped him $10,000 as a thank you.

 

This whole idea that he should get 10% is ridiculous - even 5%. Tour caddies get those bonuses based on long-term commitments. Similar to how employees at many companies get annual bonuses if they stick with the company a whole year or long-term incentives if you stay for 3+ years. As a person who manages a team, I would not feel entitled to pay a short-term contractor any portion of a bonus. We would agree on payment terms upfront and that would be that.

 

I remember a situation where I made the company where I was working a great deal of money. I was not working on commission, so I did not get a % of the profits. But the company owners shipped me some extra cash as a thank you and I felt grateful. But if the project wasn't as successful, I would have been payed the same. The idea that you consider something unfair after you have agreed to terms is not ok. That is an emotional argument.

 

Where Kuchar went wrong is that he sounds like a privileged rich dude when talking to the media and he should have paid slightly more of a bonus for the win.

[Brass_Bullseye]

"5k is a good week" is an idiotic thing to say. My god Matt.

 

It is a good week for Tucan. But it isn't a fair week.

 

"Fair" is one word that I can not stand. Who defines what is "fair" and not "fair"?

 

Standard rates for Tour caddies is what determines what is fair, even for fill-in caddies

 

So fill-in caddies should get the same amount as normal caddies? That seems like a grossly over generic answer.

 

If a tour pro can win with a fill-in caddy that doesn’t speak English, seems to me John Wood is about to experience a pay cut just a hair short of unemployment.

[Retsdon]

I can't get into the minds of people like Kuchar. At at insignificant cost to himself he has the opportunity to make somebody who has helped him fantastically happy. Does he? No. Instead he nickel and dimes the guy. It's a kind of mental illness.

[Brass_Bullseye]

I'm glad Kuchar is not caving to a bunch of social media warriors. There used to be a time when a agreement between two people was private and those involved honored that agreement. The way deals should be.

 

I get no pleasure from seeing a worker get stiffed regardless of where the story got traction.

 

Deals should be done with contracts when it involves that scale of money but seems like (some) PGA Tour players want their cake and to eat it too.

 

There's a big difference between a resort caddy and a Tour caddy. The dude could have said No Thanks to Kuchar.

 

Apparently the only difference is the tour caddies do a whole of meaningless stuff and get paid a ridiculously exorbitant amount for it. Kuchar just proved it.

[Brass_Bullseye]

The issue is not whether he was obligated. He wasn’t according to the agreement. The issue is that he stiffed the caddie. And he’s not a struggling web.com player. He is an established PGA Tour Pro that has made around ~100M in his career between winnings and endorsements. So, what makes this story so perplexing is how/why does this occur? It seems like Matt doesn’t understand what most of us understand. So something is going on “differently” in his head. The next question is why the team around him (wife, agent, etc..) didn’t or don’t get it? Putting aside “doing the right thing”, the monetary value of the PR hit will greatly exceed any reasonable payment.

So Matt understands simple contract law and you/others don’t? Good luck to El tucan ever getting a bag in this event again. If I needed a caddie for this event I sure as hell wouldn’t let this guy touch my bag.

 

Guys will be lining up to hire him just so they can publicly pay him well if they win.

[Under2hours]

If I was Matt or Matt's PR guy this is what I'd say in a press release:

 

"After careful consideration and discussion with my family and friends I have come to realize I have been mistaken in my handling of the matter at hand. I'd like to extend an offer to David Ortiz of $130,000 and would be honoured if he would be on my bag next year when I come back to defend my championship. I'd also like to thank my fans and the public in general for helping me in making this decision. I handled the issue incorrectly and extend my apology to David. Golf is a game that values above all else the honesty and integrity of its players and I was unfaithful to these principles. In that light I would also like to offer an apology to the fans around the world. "

 

Done and finished. Now everyone can forget about it and move on.

If I was Matt or Matt's PR guy this is what I'd say in a press release:

 

"After careful consideration and discussion with my family and friends I have come to realize I have been mistaken in my handling of the matter at hand. I'd like to extend an offer to David Ortiz of $130,000 and would be honoured if he would be on my bag next year when I come back to defend my championship. I'd also like to thank my fans and the public in general for helping me in making this decision. I handled the issue incorrectly and extend my apology to David. Golf is a game that values above all else the honesty and integrity of its players and I was unfaithful to these principles. In that light I would also like to offer an apology to the fans around the world. "

 

Done and finished. Now everyone can forget about it and move on.

 

I said the exact same thing in and around January 15th and $50,000 would have done the trick..... Too late now after his inane comments.

[Under2hours]

Would this even be a story if the caddie were white and at a course in the US? I doubt it. Would it be a story if Kuchar were a different race? I doubt it. Seems like the narrative that is driving the controversy is "rich white guy stiffs poor Latino guy" or " rich white guy fails to take opportunity to do something special to change the life of poor Latino guy".

 

At the end of the day, both parties are adults and contracted for something. The logic behind criticizing the amount paid to the caddie would be akin to going to a car lot and berating someone who you felt got too good of a deal or didn't pay enough to allow the salesman enough of a commission.

 

Kuch never would have lowballed a white guy at a course in the US. That's something nobody is talking about. Michael Wilbon from Pardon The Interruption just said he talked to two PGA players who were outraged by Kuchar's actions. They're right. Personally, it shocks me that anybody could back Kuchar.

 

 

great points you have there. funny how people skip over some of the details. would love to see some PGA stars speak out , it is the least they should do.

 

Their silence says all I need to know..... I.e. no one supports Kuch, but he's one of their own.

[SavageCy]

I was at the final round of the tournament and was happy to see Kuchar get the win but after finding out what a cheapskate he is I’ll never root for him again. This says a lot about the character of the man.

[rainkingjr]

Bad look all around for Kuchar. Regardless of what their agreement was initially, winning 1.3 million and then paying the caddie 5k is a total slap in the face. This guy has won $46 million on tour. He could have made a huge difference in this guy's life. Doesn't matter what Matt does going forward. Damage is done.

[Stonedude]

I will say this is going to hound him for a long time to come.... and his golf will suffer for it.

 

It is going to scramble his brain bucket a little typing Matt Kucher into google only to be on the first page of every media outlet... for being a dbag.

Because the man thought he did a solid.... I hope he gets a cold welcome from here on out. Maybe I am just disappointed because I assumed he was a good dude and rooted for the man, only to see how he acted when no one did...