El Tucan Speaks..... (NO POLITICS)

[jmvargas]

I am now convinced that all those defending Matt Kuchar are also cheapskates----and are also in denial..

[Dpavs]

The issue is not whether he was obligated. He wasn’t according to the agreement. The issue is that he stiffed the caddie. And he’s not a struggling web.com player. He is an established PGA Tour Pro that has made around ~100M in his career between winnings and endorsements. So, what makes this story so perplexing is how/why does this occur? It seems like Matt doesn’t understand what most of us understand. So something is going on “differently” in his head. The next question is why the team around him (wife, agent, etc..) didn’t or don’t get it? Putting aside “doing the right thing”, the monetary value of the PR hit will greatly exceed any reasonable payment.

 

You're right...something else is going on "differently" in his head.

 

It goes as follows (5 words):

 

A Deal is a Deal.

 

And we still do not know what that deal actually was do we? For me it's presumptuous to assume either party is being truthful with their version of the agreement.

 

All we really know is what Kuch did pay him, which was 5K. That is the only fact regarding the monetary side of this that I can see which is uncontroverted as both parties have clearly stated this. The rest is pure conjecture, right?

[ilikegolf26]

I just read a article on Golf.com. According to the interview, Kuchar agreed to a base sum of 3k and bonus of "up" to 4k. If this was indeed the case, Kuchar only pid 2k of the possible 4k......How was the caddie supposed to make the max 4k bonus ? Not only do I have to win but I need to set the course record and the lowest score ever recorded and induction into the Hall of Fame for max bonus of 4k ???? I would think winning would be enough......Maybe if Matt gave him the 4k bonus from the very start, none of this would have occurred.

If you knew how to read you would have saved yourself from a lot of word diarrhea there. The $4k wasn’t on top, it was $4k TOTAL for a top 10. Therefore, per their agreement el tucan actually got $1k more than they even agreed to.

[timbo08]

I certainly hope that Crenshaw paid Carl Jackson $10,800 for his 84 Masters win and $39,600 for his 95 Masters win. Anything less would be a travesty.

 

Not sure if he did or didn't when he won, but her certainly offered to pay for his medical expenses when Carl had issues. https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/heres-a-cool-story-about-the-time-ben-crenshaw-made-his-caddie-cry/

 

Big difference in character between Gentle Ben and the Kuch-Bag.

[Matt97GT]

If his regular caddie were on the bag, he'd have been paying $130k that week for caddie services.

 

He took advantage of the opportunity and chose to pay out $5k. So El Tucan is only worth 3.8% the value of his normal caddie? I don't want to get into politics, but if you add in the country we're talking about and day labor, there's a lot of parallel at play.

 

You can talk business and contracts all day long, but there is no decency or integrity in that choice.

[ilikegolf26]

The issue is not whether he was obligated. He wasn’t according to the agreement. The issue is that he stiffed the caddie. And he’s not a struggling web.com player. He is an established PGA Tour Pro that has made around ~100M in his career between winnings and endorsements. So, what makes this story so perplexing is how/why does this occur? It seems like Matt doesn’t understand what most of us understand. So something is going on “differently” in his head. The next question is why the team around him (wife, agent, etc..) didn’t or don’t get it? Putting aside “doing the right thing”, the monetary value of the PR hit will greatly exceed any reasonable payment.

 

He didn't stiff the caddie, he gave him $5,000. Which, if he is correct in that he makes $200 a day, say he works 24 days a month, that is $4,800 a month. Kuch doubled his monthly income. Now, he could have made it absolutely life-changing and maybe another pro would have, so ok, shame on Kuchar. But don't assume you are going to make $50,000 and turn down $15,000 and then complain about $5,000 that you agreed to. He is not entitled to getting an extra bonus. What is Matt "not understanding that most of us understand?" Why is giving someone $50,000 "doing the right thing?" I don't agree with only giving him $5,000 so I am not defending Kuchar's actions and I would like to believe if I was in that situation, I would have been more generous. But none of us debating on here know every single detail of what went down. If it makes everyone feel better by telling yourself that would would have given 10% or whatever amount, feel better about yourself. There is so much assuming and entitlement going on that it is alarming.

If Kuch gave him $50,000 the crybabies would be whining that he didn’t give 10%.

[stanger37]

I am now convinced that all those defending Matt Kuchar are also cheapskates----and are also in denial..

 

and one could argue that everyone saying "I WOULD HAVE GIVEN 10% OR AT LEAST $50,000" are also in denial.

[ilikegolf26]

If his regular caddie were on the bag, he'd have been paying $130k that week for caddie services.

 

He took advantage of the opportunity and chose to pay out $5k. So El Tucan is only worth 3.8% the value of his normal caddie? I don't want to get into politics, but if you add in the country we're talking about and day labor, there's a lot of parallel at play.

 

You can talk business and contracts all day long, but there is no decency or integrity in that choice.

How do you know that? Do you know if Kuch pays his caddie a salary or 10%? How do you know their agreement? What if Kuchar pays his caddie a flat $300,000 a year? Then that $5k for a week would actually be 87%. Is el tucan worth 87% of John Woods 20 year experience?

[jmvargas]

I am now convinced that all those defending Matt Kuchar are also cheapskates----and are also in denial..

 

and one could argue that everyone saying "I WOULD HAVE GIVEN 10% OR AT LEAST $50,000" are also in denial.

 

 

 

...I can honestly say I would have given exactly $50K...

[TreyWingbat]

Instead of yelling "Kuuuuuuuuuuuch!" on the course, fans should definitely yell "Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapppppppp!" from now on for Matty Money-wads.

[micha]

I wonder if Kuch giving 5k is the equivalent % wise as Judge Smails giving Danny Noonan some spare change as his tip. Probably pretty close.

[DBill]

“5k is a good week” is an idiotic thing to say. My god Matt.

 

I'd take 5k for 4-6 days of work!

The public sentiment is that Kuchar did Tucan wrong, and Matt saying 5k is a good week for a guy who normally makes $200 is so out of touch. Kuchar seeems to have no idea how the public is viewing this situation.

 

The public should have no bearing on this situation. They agreed upon an amount before the tournament started and he was paid more than that agreement.

[Under2hours]

I've read most of this thread and haven't seen much mention or asking of this, but what is "standard" for a local caddie arrangement? I read or heard somewhere that what Matt offered would be considered generous based on this standard.

 

And the next question would be "is there a standard for when the player finishes high?" I don't know the answer to this.

 

I generally agree that this is a bad look for Kuchar, but I also agree that this isn't a story if he finished 5th, and I also agree that this is none of ours nor Tom Gillis' business.

 

I've also seen many posts saying "I know exactly what I would have done, I would have paid him at least $xk". I always chuckle when I see that, because people rarely actually do what they say they would have done. None of us knows how we would have acted in this specific situation. We all think we know, but we really don't.

 

This is a lose-lose situation on both sides. Bad look for Kuch even though he fulfilled his obligation (and I am a fan), and bad look for Tucan because he's let the wrong people convince him that he deserves more, and bad look for Gillis who is the least likeable person in this whole scenario IMO.

 

There have been plenty of quotes and comments in the thread. However the precedent to me was set when Sergio paid a local (who even by his admission did nothing more then carry his clubs, pull the flagstick & clean his clubs) $76,000 + tip on a $960,000 win.

[ilikegolf26]

If his regular caddie were on the bag, he'd have been paying $130k that week for caddie services.

 

He took advantage of the opportunity and chose to pay out $5k. So El Tucan is only worth 3.8% the value of his normal caddie? I don't want to get into politics, but if you add in the country we're talking about and day labor, there's a lot of parallel at play.

 

You can talk business and contracts all day long, but there is no decency or integrity in that choice.

Yeah and if Kuchars agreement with his regular caddie is a flat 10% like you’re saying and he missed the cut then el tucan is taking advantage of the situation right? Because in that missed cut scenario, with his regular caddie, Kuch wouldn’t be paying anything out to a caddie that week.

[jerebear21]

I've read most of this thread and haven't seen much mention or asking of this, but what is "standard" for a local caddie arrangement? I read or heard somewhere that what Matt offered would be considered generous based on this standard.

 

And the next question would be "is there a standard for when the player finishes high?" I don't know the answer to this.

 

I generally agree that this is a bad look for Kuchar, but I also agree that this isn't a story if he finished 5th, and I also agree that this is none of ours nor Tom Gillis' business.

 

I've also seen many posts saying "I know exactly what I would have done, I would have paid him at least $xk". I always chuckle when I see that, because people rarely actually do what they say they would have done. None of us knows how we would have acted in this specific situation. We all think we know, but we really don't.

 

This is a lose-lose situation on both sides. Bad look for Kuch even though he fulfilled his obligation (and I am a fan), and bad look for Tucan because he's let the wrong people convince him that he deserves more, and bad look for Gillis who is the least likeable person in this whole scenario IMO.

 

There have been plenty of quotes and comments in the thread. However the precedent to me was set when Sergio paid a local (who even by his admission did nothing more then carry his clubs, pull the flagstick & clean his clubs) $76,000 + tip on a $960,000 win.

 

Sergio tried to buy class.

[jj9000]

Are we missing the notion that all of this is rooted in Free Market Economics...with basic Supply and Demand being the drivers?

 

If $3K-$5k (or whatever the number) was pre-negotiated...Tucan had the opportunity to decline...and Kuchar would have gone to the next Caddie in line.

 

Ask yourselves if the next Caddie in line would have turned down the pre-negotiated money. If your answer is "Yes" the next Caddie would have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken...and Kuchar would have been forced to offer more pay for Caddie Services.

 

If the answer is "No" the next Caddie would NOT have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken. At that point...Market Rates would have been established at $3K-$5K for the job..

 

Tucan accepted the pre-negotiated amount...and an Agreement was struck.

 

Everything that happens next is irrelevant. The "Deal" had already been struck.

 

Going back and asking for more money after the Services are rendered is fine. Perfectly normal.

 

Expecting more money after the Services are rendered is irrational...and not a part of the original Deal.

[Popeye64]

I get the agreed upon amount at the start of the week and it's a contract but damn... You won the tournament.

Give the guy a serious payday. Isn't Matt Kucher one of the most consistent golfers on tour with the nickname,, ATM. Because he is always in the money.

Maybe because I dont come from money I look at it differently but i would have given the guy a huge check.

[Oldboy]

Honoring a contract and being a cheapass dbag are not mutually exclusive. Bravo Kuch. You hit the daily double. Take your 0.2% you commoner and be gone!

[Under2hours]

I am now convinced that all those defending Matt Kuchar are also cheapskates----and are also in denial..

 

and one could argue that everyone saying "I WOULD HAVE GIVEN 10% OR AT LEAST $50,000" are also in denial.

If I'm a pro golfer with $50,000,000 in wins and countless more in endorsement, know full well the protocols & expected pay. Pay my caddie 10% for a win..... Damn right I would have paid a minimum of $50,000. But of course I'm an SJW.

[dropkicked]

I've read most of this thread and haven't seen much mention or asking of this, but what is "standard" for a local caddie arrangement? I read or heard somewhere that what Matt offered would be considered generous based on this standard.

 

And the next question would be "is there a standard for when the player finishes high?" I don't know the answer to this.

 

I generally agree that this is a bad look for Kuchar, but I also agree that this isn't a story if he finished 5th, and I also agree that this is none of ours nor Tom Gillis' business.

 

I've also seen many posts saying "I know exactly what I would have done, I would have paid him at least $xk". I always chuckle when I see that, because people rarely actually do what they say they would have done. None of us knows how we would have acted in this specific situation. We all think we know, but we really don't.

 

This is a lose-lose situation on both sides. Bad look for Kuch even though he fulfilled his obligation (and I am a fan), and bad look for Tucan because he's let the wrong people convince him that he deserves more, and bad look for Gillis who is the least likeable person in this whole scenario IMO.

 

There have been plenty of quotes and comments in the thread. However the precedent to me was set when Sergio paid a local (who even by his admission did nothing more then carry his clubs, pull the flagstick & clean his clubs) $76,000 + tip on a $960,000 win.

 

Sergio tried to buy class.

You're incorrect. Sergio, showed class..

[DBill]

Exactly. This is bigger than Kuchar and bigger than golf. It's about greed and the hoarding of wealth. Its about 1% of the richest people owning more than half of the world's wealth. Kuchar is now the poster boy for this in golf and I will bet the harrassment at tourneys will go on and on and on. Just watch.

 

lol you cant make this stuff up..

 

 

The fact that this guys thinks Kuch is in the top 1% of wealth is pure gold.

[micha]

“5k is a good week” is an idiotic thing to say. My god Matt.

 

I'd take 5k for 4-6 days of work!

The public sentiment is that Kuchar did Tucan wrong, and Matt saying 5k is a good week for a guy who normally makes $200 is so out of touch. Kuchar seeems to have no idea how the public is viewing this situation.

 

The public should have no bearing on this situation. They agreed upon an amount before the tournament started and he was paid more than that agreement.

 

Thats the lamest argument. We're not saying Kuch didnt anything illegal. He just embarrassed himself and fed every negative stereotype people have about golfers.

[DBill]

I am now convinced that all those defending Matt Kuchar are also cheapskates----and are also in denial..

 

I'm convinced everyone saying Kuch should have paid more love to spend other peoples money.

[Dpavs]

Are we missing the notion that all of this is rooted in Free Market Economics...with basic Supply and Demand being the drivers?

 

If $3K-$5k (or whatever the number) was pre-negotiated...Tucan had the opportunity to decline...and Kuchar would have gone to the next Caddie in line.

 

Ask yourselves if the next Caddie in line would have turned down the pre-negotiated money. If your answer is "Yes" the next Caddie would have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken...and Kuchar would have been forced to offer more pay for Caddie Services.

 

If the answer is "No" the next Caddie would NOT have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken. At that point...Market Rates would have been established at $3K-$5K for the job..

 

Tucan accepted the pre-negotiated amount...and an Agreement was struck.

 

Everything that happens next is irrelevant. The "Deal" had already been struck.

 

Going back and asking for more money after the Services are rendered is fine. Perfectly normal.

 

Expecting more money after the Services are rendered is irrational...and not a part of the original Deal.

 

As I have stated I understand the argument made here, but it is premised on something that has not been established as a fact. It is not incontrovertible that there was indeed an agreement for the 3-5K. This is merely an assumption and is not something both parties have indicated to be true. All we really know is that the paid amount was 5K, both parties have clearly said so. But that is it nothing more is really a fact.

 

So to me, any argument which starts with this premise ends up being hypothetical at best. And I suppose as others have said... even if it was the legal thing or the agreed on thing.... doesn't keep it from being viewed as the cheap thing to do.

[DBill]

I am now convinced that all those defending Matt Kuchar are also cheapskates----and are also in denial..

 

and one could argue that everyone saying "I WOULD HAVE GIVEN 10% OR AT LEAST $50,000" are also in denial.

 

 

 

...I can honestly say I would have given exactly $50K...

 

Should have given the normal rate of 10%, so cheap.

[Mr. Grumpy]

Before you spit roast Kooch at your next drum circle, Tucan declined the sum of 20K... Though this story seems to be changing minute by minute...

[cdnglf]

The issue is not whether he was obligated. He wasn't according to the agreement. The issue is that he stiffed the caddie. And he's not a struggling web.com player. He is an established PGA Tour Pro that has made around ~100M in his career between winnings and endorsements. So, what makes this story so perplexing is how/why does this occur? It seems like Matt doesn't understand what most of us understand. So something is going on "differently" in his head. The next question is why the team around him (wife, agent, etc..) didn't or don't get it? Putting aside "doing the right thing", the monetary value of the PR hit will greatly exceed any reasonable payment.

 

He didn't stiff the caddie, he gave him $5,000. Which, if he is correct in that he makes $200 a day, say he works 24 days a month, that is $4,800 a month. Kuch doubled his monthly income. Now, he could have made it absolutely life-changing and maybe another pro would have, so ok, shame on Kuchar. But don't assume you are going to make $50,000 and turn down $15,000 and then complain about $5,000 that you agreed to. He is not entitled to getting an extra bonus. What is Matt "not understanding that most of us understand?" Why is giving someone $50,000 "doing the right thing?" I don't agree with only giving him $5,000 so I am not defending Kuchar's actions and I would like to believe if I was in that situation, I would have been more generous. But none of us debating on here know every single detail of what went down. If it makes everyone feel better by telling yourself that would would have given 10% or whatever amount, feel better about yourself. There is so much assuming and entitlement going on that it is alarming.

If Kuch gave him $50,000 the crybabies would be whining that he didn't give 10%.

 

 

1200 post in this thread and counting. Not sure I've seen a single one argue for the full 10%.

[ilikegolf26]

I am now convinced that all those defending Matt Kuchar are also cheapskates----and are also in denial..

 

I'm convinced everyone saying Kuch should have paid more love to spend other peoples money.

When I worked at a golf course in high school the worst tippers by far were the ones with Obama stickers on their car. This isn’t a political jab either. Just an honest observation.

[ilikegolf26]

The issue is not whether he was obligated. He wasn't according to the agreement. The issue is that he stiffed the caddie. And he's not a struggling web.com player. He is an established PGA Tour Pro that has made around ~100M in his career between winnings and endorsements. So, what makes this story so perplexing is how/why does this occur? It seems like Matt doesn't understand what most of us understand. So something is going on "differently" in his head. The next question is why the team around him (wife, agent, etc..) didn't or don't get it? Putting aside "doing the right thing", the monetary value of the PR hit will greatly exceed any reasonable payment.

 

He didn't stiff the caddie, he gave him $5,000. Which, if he is correct in that he makes $200 a day, say he works 24 days a month, that is $4,800 a month. Kuch doubled his monthly income. Now, he could have made it absolutely life-changing and maybe another pro would have, so ok, shame on Kuchar. But don't assume you are going to make $50,000 and turn down $15,000 and then complain about $5,000 that you agreed to. He is not entitled to getting an extra bonus. What is Matt "not understanding that most of us understand?" Why is giving someone $50,000 "doing the right thing?" I don't agree with only giving him $5,000 so I am not defending Kuchar's actions and I would like to believe if I was in that situation, I would have been more generous. But none of us debating on here know every single detail of what went down. If it makes everyone feel better by telling yourself that would would have given 10% or whatever amount, feel better about yourself. There is so much assuming and entitlement going on that it is alarming.

If Kuch gave him $50,000 the crybabies would be whining that he didn't give 10%.

 

 

1200 post in this thread and counting. Not sure I've seen a single one argue for the full 10%.

Yes, because he didn’t tip the $50,000.....

[DBill]

“5k is a good week” is an idiotic thing to say. My god Matt.

 

I'd take 5k for 4-6 days of work!

The public sentiment is that Kuchar did Tucan wrong, and Matt saying 5k is a good week for a guy who normally makes $200 is so out of touch. Kuchar seeems to have no idea how the public is viewing this situation.

 

The public should have no bearing on this situation. They agreed upon an amount before the tournament started and he was paid more than that agreement.

 

Thats the lamest argument. We're not saying Kuch didnt anything illegal. He just embarrassed himself and fed every negative stereotype people have about golfers.

 

Why is the public allowed to say where anyone should spend their money?