Pace of play

[Newby]

> @wkuo3 said:

> If the golf course is walkable and golfers had played it before, then it should be under 4 hours of play without delay.

So a 6000 yard course green to tee will take as long to walk as a 7000 yard course green to tee without counting the time for extra strokes?

 

[buckeyefl]

If you show up at a resort course, or any busy course, expecting to play sub 4 hour rounds then you will forever be disappointed. 4:10-4:30 is pretty standard rating for most courses and unless you are first out you are sharing the course with other players who may not move as fast as yourself.

> @RickKimbrell said:

> Got into this "discussion" at a recent tournament league event. I went out in the first group. There were regular daily fee players on the course when our tee times started. About 5 holes in, a guy from the pro shop (would not label him as a ranger or marshal) rides up and tells me there is 2 holes open BEHIND my group. I told him, maybe you should talk to them. Not much I can do since I am in front of them. They never caught up. My group finished in 4 hours exactly. The 2nd group came in 25 minutes later. I made a comment to them, "Did you get lost?" and "Did the guy from pro shop talk to y'all?" One of the guys tells me, "We finished in under 4-1/2 hours, and that is better than the pace of play posted." My comment back to him was "You are supposed to stay up with the group ahead of you." Then I had to hear about how the guy from the shop talking to him over and over messed with his game. Some people just waste time on the course. That particular day, we had a guy in our group who actually lost 4 balls yet we kept pace with the group ahead of us. At one point, I think we fell a shot behind but quickly caught up. I have heard instructions from pros at stroke play tournaments with 96 players going off shotgun start tell everyone...you will play in 4 hours. I just laugh. I know that will not happen. On the other hand, posting pace of play at 4-1/2 hours at the course..does it help? Especially when people are happy if they finish in that length of time even if they are 2 or more holes behind? I think not. Just keep up.

>

 

At most facilities you would be in the wrong. I used to deal with this every weekend. The pace of play is 430 and you are playing in 4 so I am not about to jump on the group in front of you or behind you because you are faster players. Thats reality. Always remind yourself that you are one customer among many. Try rangering for a while to get a real world feel for how it actually works. It would be eye opening.

 

You were probably being told there were two holes behind you in order to give you a subtke hint that you were playing faster than that days pace in order to prevent future complaining about having a "five hour round waiting on every tee" that I used to hear every weekend. The one good thing about cart tracking software is that it will show you time on course which was great for ending those particular overdramatic conversations.

 

To correct your incorrect assumption, you place is not right behind the group in front of you if they are playing exceptionally fast. A half an hour faster than listed pace is within that range. Again that real world stuff not fast player theory.

 

The answer, if you can't stand players in front of you or their reasonable pace, is to tee off first. Problem solved.

[wkuo3]

> @Newby said:

> > @wkuo3 said:

> > If the golf course is walkable and golfers had played it before, then it should be under 4 hours of play without delay.

> So a 6000 yard course green to tee will take as long to walk as a 7000 yard course green to tee without counting the time for extra strokes?

>

 

Terrain ? Elevation change ? distance from green to the next tee box ?

I assure you, a 6300 yards hilly course winding through housing development takes much longer to play than a 7000 yards relatively flat links style course.

If you had been exposed to many different type of golf courses, then, you'd understand.

Of course, the number of stops ( snack bar ) between the holes also plays a roll.

[chippa13]

There's always that guy. Obviously. He was making an "all other things being equal" kind of comment.

[Newby]

> @wkuo3 said:

> Terrain ? Elevation change ? distance from green to the next tee box ?

> If you had been exposed to many different type of golf courses, then, you'd understand.

I was assuming readers would assume the first two are similar and I included the latter in my words 'green to tee'.

Incidentally, I have rated dozens of courses and officiated at scores of others in recent years, so have plenty of 'exposure'.

My officiating involves setting the standard times for elite competitions.

 

 

[wkuo3]

> @Newby said:

> > @wkuo3 said:

> > Terrain ? Elevation change ? distance from green to the next tee box ?

> > If you had been exposed to many different type of golf courses, then, you'd understand.

> I was assuming readers would assume the first two are similar and I included the latter in my words 'green to tee'.

> Incidentally, I have rated dozens of courses and officiated at scores of others in recent years, so have plenty of 'exposure'.

> My officiating involves setting the standard times for elite competitions.

>

>

 

Congratulation !

Not to pick on you, but since you had all those experience for setting the pace of play for the "elite Competition" Would that apply to the average golfers ?

When I help out a golf course, the most important thing to remember for me is to adjust my quideline for each group of golfers. Trying to keep everyone happy is not possible.

There are some, golf like they drive on the roadway, they will run people over on the one lane roadway.

Good job and perhaps you'll be advocating for the average golfers someday.

[Newby]

> @wkuo3 said:

> Not to pick on you, but since you had all those experience for setting the pace of play for the "elite Competition" Would that apply to the average golfers ?

I have found it difficult to persuade my club to take it on. The issue is convincing anyone who hasn't experienced the difference that the biggest problem is one of perception. Increasing the starter's gap from 7 or 8 minutes to 10 eliminates many bottlenecks. It doesn't necessarily reduce overall time reduces waiting. Clubs, particularly 'pay & play are reluctant to do this because of loss if green fee income.

Further, course layout can increase the perception of playing time. eg short par 4 followed by a par 3. Players reach the par 3 tee 'too soon' and wait. However the time lapse for the par 3 is short so it shouldn't affect the overall time

We allocate a time to each hole based on the par (ie no of strokes expected). This is adjusted for potential problems (eg penalty areas, OOB, 'jungles') and green to tee walking.

 

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @om18v said:

> > @RickKimbrell said:

> SNIP

> > My group finished in 4 hours exactly. The 2nd group came in 25 minutes later. I made a comment to them, "Did you get lost?" and "Did the guy from pro shop talk to y'all?" One of the guys tells me, "We finished in under 4-1/2 hours, and that is better than the pace of play posted." My comment back to him was "You are supposed to stay up with the group ahead of you."

> >

> SNIP

>

> If they were behind you and did not hold up your group, why did you think it was your responsibility to say anything? That's a new one for me. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just don't understand the mindset.

>

 

Maybe because someday those guys will be in front of him? Maybe a little more pressure on slow players could help us all?

[cxx]

The 10 minute tee times does solve a lot of problems. It's enough room between groups to compensate for extra strokes on hard holes and other stumbles. It doesn't help everyone though. I play with some guys that measure their game by the clock rather than the score. It's always too slow for them.

 

[wkuo3]

> @Newby said:

> > @wkuo3 said:

> > Not to pick on you, but since you had all those experience for setting the pace of play for the "elite Competition" Would that apply to the average golfers ?

> I have found it difficult to persuade my club to take it on. The issue is convincing anyone who hasn't experienced the difference that the biggest problem is one of perception. Increasing the starter's gap from 7 or 8 minutes to 10 eliminates many bottlenecks. It doesn't necessarily reduce overall time reduces waiting. Clubs, particularly 'pay & play are reluctant to do this because of loss if green fee income.

> Further, course layout can increase the perception of playing time. eg short par 4 followed by a par 3. Players reach the par 3 tee 'too soon' and wait. However the time lapse for the par 3 is short so it shouldn't affect the overall time

> We allocate a time to each hole based on the par (ie no of strokes expected). This is adjusted for potential problems (eg penalty areas, OOB, 'jungles') and green to tee walking.

>

>

 

You had hit n on the spot.

I remembered the 15 minutes between the tee times. That is about the maximum a hole should be played ( averaging out ). Of course the couse layout is also a huge factor in the pace of play. A difficult par 3 after a short par 4 is where we see a lot of the pile up on the tee box. Sometimes 3+ groups were on the par 3 waiting.

Unfortunately, the new management these day all seemed to come out of one assembly line and taught by the same professor in school. That is for almost every industry, including the healthcare.

Maybe you should suggest solution to the managing Pro and the owner of the golf course by approaching them with ideas to not only better manage the pace of play but also increase the customer satisfaction level which will increase their operation income.

They'll listen to you if you have the credential ( like everyone all have a way of polishing their resume these days to look super good ).

[Newby]

> @wkuo3 said:

> They'll listen to you if you have the credential ( like everyone all have a way of polishing their resume these days to look super good ).

I have made a number of presentations on the theme 'Don't just blame the player' to seminars at clubs, my county and my national authority. They seem to go down well but often the problem is that some courses can't change their layout, remove/reduce/alter some time consuming penalty areas, (won't) pay to keep their jungles/rough under control (3 minutes per 'lost' ball). Extremely punitive rough may be OK if they are hosting an elite tournament but not for everyday golf (however good a minority of players/members might be (wrxers?). ;) >:)

And of course extending start times are a no-no to public courses proprietors.

 

[MaineMariner]

Have there been any studies, not speculation, on the actual causes of slow rounds? I have to think that there have been.

 

I've long believed that bunching tee times is the biggest culprit, or at least the easiest solution. I find that even courses with starters often don't really START groups, they just sort of say something along the lines of "you're nexg on the tee," and it's expected that the group on the tee will hit when they can't reach the group in front of them.

 

Over the course of the day, this really screws things up because a small slowdown (say, two minutes searching for a lost ball in the rough) causes a slow pileup of groups.

 

The easy solution would be to strictly enforce the tee off times. If your tee time is 9:30, you tee off at 9:30, no exceptions.

[rogolf]

See below, from a study done by the National Golf Course Owners Association on pace of play. Imo, it illustrates that there is very little impact on "throughput" (number of rounds completed) and tee time intervals, and it would only affect the bottom line ($$) if the tee sheet were completely full from 7AM to 6PM.

 

[Newby]

> @rogolf said:

> See below, from a study done by the National Golf Course Owners Association on pace of play.

>

This is the full report. I used this as one of my resources. It is a longish but worthwhile read.

https://www.ngcoa1.org/images/ngcoa/Pace_of_Play.pdf

 

[om18v]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @om18v said:

> > > @RickKimbrell said:

> > SNIP

> > > My group finished in 4 hours exactly. The 2nd group came in 25 minutes later. I made a comment to them, "Did you get lost?" and "Did the guy from pro shop talk to y'all?" One of the guys tells me, "We finished in under 4-1/2 hours, and that is better than the pace of play posted." My comment back to him was "You are supposed to stay up with the group ahead of you."

> > >

> > SNIP

> >

> > If they were behind you and did not hold up your group, why did you think it was your responsibility to say anything? That's a new one for me. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just don't understand the mindset.

> >

>

> Maybe because someday those guys will be in front of him? Maybe a little more pressure on slow players could help us all?

 

Nah, seeking someone out who was behind you and didn't hold up your game is just being a bully.

[wkuo3]

> @Newby said:

> > @wkuo3 said:

> > They'll listen to you if you have the credential ( like everyone all have a way of polishing their resume these days to look super good ).

> I have made a number of presentations on the theme 'Don't just blame the player' to seminars at clubs, my county and my national authority. They seem to go down well but often the problem is that some courses can't change their layout, remove/reduce/alter some time consuming penalty areas, (won't) pay to keep their jungles/rough under control (3 minutes per 'lost' ball). Extremely punitive rough may be OK if they are hosting an elite tournament but not for everyday golf (however good a minority of players/members might be (wrxers?). ;) >:)

> And of course extending start times are a no-no to public courses proprietors.

>

 

Agree.

I had found out several things over the years.

One, if it does not cost them a lot for either a study or advise. It's not well received.

Two, the management and the owner will move the responsibility back and forth, for one eason or the other. No one wants to own the decision of making a change.

I had also seen many of the local golf courses flipped the front 9 and the back nine, for the average golfers will get fatiqued towards the end of the round , so a tournament layout with the more difficult back 9 really slowed down the weekend warriors.

A friendly advice from the starter to let the golfers know to have a good time but keep up with the group ahead will also help. Of course, blocking the intoxicated golfers from teeing off should always be practiced.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @om18v said:

 

> Nah, seeking someone out who was behind you and didn't hold up your game is just being a bully.

 

I seriously doubt @RickKimbrell is a bully. He was waiting for the slow pokes because they were in a tournament.

[finleysg]

I solved the pace of play issue several years ago. I learned to roll with whatever pace the course and my group had going that day. Gear up to play briskly or gear down and play slowly or somewhere in the middle. Given how much variation there is from one round to the next, I found solving it for myself was the only way to continue to enjoy the game.

[MountainKing]

I've played golf with numerous people of various ability over the years and a 3:30 pace for a foursome is very doable without rushing on most golf courses (especially in the midwest). At best it should be 4 hours with the expectation to keep up with the group in front of you. As the game grew in the 2000's it seems 4 1/2 to 5 hour rounds became the norm, especially on weekends. If you're struggling to play in the 4 hour time frame then you're either playing from the wrong tees or not ready to play on a 18 hole course. If you like the idea of being on a course for 5 hours then play 27, don't play 18 slow. Of course I'm more or less preaching to the choir here.

 

The only way to really fix it is go back to what a lot of courses did in the 90's and prior - make slow groups on the front skip holes to catch up, and if they aren't making the turn in an appropriate amount of time after the group in front of them then issue them a rain check and send them on their way. Unfortunately courses have gotten scared of losing customers, which I'm not sure why because tee sheets generally seem to be full.

[RickK]

> @om18v said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @om18v said:

> > > > @RickKimbrell said:

> > > SNIP

> > > > My group finished in 4 hours exactly. The 2nd group came in 25 minutes later. I made a comment to them, "Did you get lost?" and "Did the guy from pro shop talk to y'all?" One of the guys tells me, "We finished in under 4-1/2 hours, and that is better than the pace of play posted." My comment back to him was "You are supposed to stay up with the group ahead of you."

> > > >

> > > SNIP

> > >

> > > If they were behind you and did not hold up your group, why did you think it was your responsibility to say anything? That's a new one for me. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just don't understand the mindset.

> > >

> >

> > Maybe because someday those guys will be in front of him? Maybe a little more pressure on slow players could help us all?

>

> Nah, seeking someone out who was behind you and didn't hold up your game is just being a bully.

 

How am I being a bully when the guy from the pro shop is on my Word not allowed because the guys behind me (in the same tournament) are holding up the rest of the course? Maybe I looked like I was in some "official capacity". But since I am part of the same tournament, if the guys behind me are making the entire group look bad...I will be a bully if I have to and remind them to keep up the pace of play. Personally don't think it is being a bully...but I do think I owe it to the rest of the tournament group behind them to remind them to keep up instead of trying to just finish in a certain amount of time. JMHO...you may have a different one.

[RickK]

> @buckeyefl said:

> If you show up at a resort course, or any busy course, expecting to play sub 4 hour rounds then you will forever be disappointed. 4:10-4:30 is pretty standard rating for most courses and unless you are first out you are sharing the course with other players who may not move as fast as yourself.

> > @RickKimbrell said:

> > Got into this "discussion" at a recent tournament league event. I went out in the first group. There were regular daily fee players on the course when our tee times started. About 5 holes in, a guy from the pro shop (would not label him as a ranger or marshal) rides up and tells me there is 2 holes open BEHIND my group. I told him, maybe you should talk to them. Not much I can do since I am in front of them. They never caught up. My group finished in 4 hours exactly. The 2nd group came in 25 minutes later. I made a comment to them, "Did you get lost?" and "Did the guy from pro shop talk to y'all?" One of the guys tells me, "We finished in under 4-1/2 hours, and that is better than the pace of play posted." My comment back to him was "You are supposed to stay up with the group ahead of you." Then I had to hear about how the guy from the shop talking to him over and over messed with his game. Some people just waste time on the course. That particular day, we had a guy in our group who actually lost 4 balls yet we kept pace with the group ahead of us. At one point, I think we fell a shot behind but quickly caught up. I have heard instructions from pros at stroke play tournaments with 96 players going off shotgun start tell everyone...you will play in 4 hours. I just laugh. I know that will not happen. On the other hand, posting pace of play at 4-1/2 hours at the course..does it help? Especially when people are happy if they finish in that length of time even if they are 2 or more holes behind? I think not. Just keep up.

> >

>

> At most facilities you would be in the wrong. I used to deal with this every weekend. The pace of play is 430 and you are playing in 4 so I am not about to jump on the group in front of you or behind you because you are faster players. Thats reality. Always remind yourself that you are one customer among many. Try rangering for a while to get a real world feel for how it actually works. It would be eye opening.

>

> You were probably being told there were two holes behind you in order to give you a subtke hint that you were playing faster than that days pace in order to prevent future complaining about having a "five hour round waiting on every tee" that I used to hear every weekend. The one good thing about cart tracking software is that it will show you time on course which was great for ending those particular overdramatic conversations.

>

> To correct your incorrect assumption, you place is not right behind the group in front of you if they are playing exceptionally fast. A half an hour faster than listed pace is within that range. Again that real world stuff not fast player theory.

>

> The answer, if you can't stand players in front of you or their reasonable pace, is to tee off first. Problem solved.

 

I was the first group of the tournament. So, I could not tee off before the group ahead of me. My group kept pace with the group that was ahead. Very little wait but for the most part we were always where we should have been. The guy from the pro shop jumped my Word not allowed because the 2nd group of the tournament I was in was 2 holes behind. Now, maybe I looked like was some sort of tournament official (not any more, used to be). But, since I am part of the tournament, I feel an obligation to tell the guys who are also part of the tournament to keep pace. Not fall behind and do nothing to catch up.

But as far as teeing off before the group...nope...so problem is NOT solved.

I want to make sure I understand your thinking, however. Apparently your thinking does not agree with the guy out of the pro shop who jumped my Word not allowed about something behind me. But, are you saying that if the course has set the general pace of play at 4-1/2 hours they (the course official) should not say a word to the group who is on pace (according to time) but is 2 holes behind the group who teed off immediately before them? And this is on a course that had tee times full right up to the point where the tournament started. This is not shotgun start either, this is by tee times. Since my first initiation to golf, I was always told to keep up with the group ahead of you...don't worry about who is behind you. So, the course is playing at a pace faster than posted by everyone but that single group who was 2nd off in tournament. Just trying to find out if you are disagreeing with the course official who jumped my Word not allowed.

[buckeyefl]

Yes. He was probably telling you that because you were playing quickly and to get ahead of anyone in the group calling the shop to complain. Just a guess and it shouldn't be a "jumping your a**" moment if that was the case.

 

I didn't say they shouldn't say a word but if they are on pace and two holes behind then the group in from of them is playing sub posted PoP. A friendly reminder so that they don't go above the pace but you can't beat their heads in if they finish at the posted pace. Is it perfect? Nope. Would I be "encouraging" the early groups to set a good pace? You bet your favorite putter I would be.

[farmer]

Rick, if I understand everything, the guy who got up your butt was a moron. Who would b**** at the pace group?

[LeoLeo99]

> @om18v said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @om18v said:

> > > > @RickKimbrell said:

> > > SNIP

> > > > My group finished in 4 hours exactly. The 2nd group came in 25 minutes later. I made a comment to them, "Did you get lost?" and "Did the guy from pro shop talk to y'all?" One of the guys tells me, "We finished in under 4-1/2 hours, and that is better than the pace of play posted." My comment back to him was "You are supposed to stay up with the group ahead of you."

> > > >

> > > SNIP

> > >

> > > If they were behind you and did not hold up your group, why did you think it was your responsibility to say anything? That's a new one for me. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just don't understand the mindset.

> > >

> >

> > Maybe because someday those guys will be in front of him? Maybe a little more pressure on slow players could help us all?

>

> Nah, seeking someone out who was behind you and didn't hold up your game is just being a bully.

 

I call it peer pressure.

 

While we're young.

[om18v]

> @RickKimbrell said:

> > @om18v said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @om18v said:

> > > > > @RickKimbrell said:

> > > > SNIP

> > > > > My group finished in 4 hours exactly. The 2nd group came in 25 minutes later. I made a comment to them, "Did you get lost?" and "Did the guy from pro shop talk to y'all?" One of the guys tells me, "We finished in under 4-1/2 hours, and that is better than the pace of play posted." My comment back to him was "You are supposed to stay up with the group ahead of you."

> > > > >

> > > > SNIP

> > > >

> > > > If they were behind you and did not hold up your group, why did you think it was your responsibility to say anything? That's a new one for me. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just don't understand the mindset.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Maybe because someday those guys will be in front of him? Maybe a little more pressure on slow players could help us all?

> >

> > Nah, seeking someone out who was behind you and didn't hold up your game is just being a bully.

>

> How am I being a bully when the guy from the pro shop is on my Word not allowed because the guys behind me (in the same tournament) are holding up the rest of the course? Maybe I looked like I was in some "official capacity". But since I am part of the same tournament, if the guys behind me are making the entire group look bad...I will be a bully if I have to and remind them to keep up the pace of play. Personally don't think it is being a bully...but I do think I owe it to the rest of the tournament group behind them to remind them to keep up instead of trying to just finish in a certain amount of time. JMHO...you may have a different one.

 

Seems to me your issue should be with the guy from the pro shop being on the wrong groups Word not allowed

[Mr. Bean]

It is most unfortunate that people think that a given PoP time is the time they are allowed to use regardless of the pace of other groups. This is not true at all. You are not entitled to hold back groups behind you just because you are not exceeding the MAXIMUM time of play. Every group has the responsibility to keep up with the group in front of it, simple as that.

 

It is very common in competitions when a group has fallen out of position and I go and ask them to catch up the group in front of them the players without exception look behind and if there is nobody waiting they say 'we are not holding anybody back'. Well, that may be true for the time being but the job of a referee is to get the groups fallen out of position to move faster and catch up and that means after 2-3 holes this particular group might be holding someone back if they cannot get back in position.

 

Players are supposed to watch what is happening in front of them, not what is happening behind. If they are falling out of position they need to catch up regardless of the situation behind them.

[HatsForBats]

> It is most unfortunate that people think that a given PoP time is the time they are allowed to use regardless of the pace of other groups. This is not true at all. You are not entitled to hold back groups behind you just because you are not exceeding the MAXIMUM time of play. Every group has the responsibility to keep up with the group in front of it, simple as that.

>

 

No. One shouldn't expect the group behind to keep up with my Sunday morning group that will finish in about 3 hours and 15 minutes or less. To ask a regular foursome, who are not playing like rabbits, to keep up with us is very unreasonable. I enjoy my Sunday morning rounds but that is the only time I want to play like a rabbit. If I am out with another group and we are on a pace under the posted PoP then too bad for rabbits behind us (unless they have less players in their group than ours and there is **ample** room in front of us).

 

 

[Argonne69]

> @Newby said:

> > @wkuo3 said:

> > If the golf course is walkable and golfers had played it before, then it should be under 4 hours of play without delay.

> So a 6000 yard course green to tee will take as long to walk as a 7000 yard course green to tee without counting the time for extra strokes?

>

 

It takes ~11 minutes for an average person to walk 1000 yds.

[Swisstrader98]

Let’s face it fellas...slow play will exist FOREVER!!

 

New rules were also supposed to speed up play: NOPE, not even close!

 

 

[North Butte]

I have an informal "arrangement" (I say informal because it's just something that evolved over the years, not an explicit agreement) with the guy who runs our club's pro shop. When I'm playing solo, as I often do, he lets me know what's going to be ahead of me that day. If he can, he sends me out on a nine with at least several holes open ahead because he knows I like to play quickly. If he can't do that he always says, "You'll catch up to [name of the group] after a couple holes, sorry".

 

If I know it's going to be well over 90 minutes to play nine holes, rather than playing the first four holes in 25 minutes then waiting on every shot after that I just back off my pace and waste a little time on each hole from the beginning. Usually just forget about keeping score and simply play from tee to green then hang around chipping and putting for 3-4 minutes before going to the next tee. Which is fun in its own right once in a while.

 

My side of the implicit deal is I don't play through and I don't hit up near people and I don't stand in the fairway with hands on hips glaring at the the threesome putting ahead of me. Life's too stressful to make golf into a pissing contest. Those guys ahead of me aren't going to stay ahead of a single no matter what and there's no need for me to act like they can. And I'm not going to enjoy my round if I'm constantly waiting to be waved through, then playing quickly and out of sync until I'm past them, then do the whole thing again a few holes later.

 

And if the people ahead of me are truly glacially slow, I will simply quit at the turn. Doesn't happen but once or twice a year but I can only be patient so long in one day.

 

I also always call before heading to the course even on weekday late afternoons when I would expect the course to be pretty open. Once in a great while he'll tell me it's just not going to be a good day to try and playing in 2-1/2 or 3 hours. Then at least I know what I'm in for and can decide if it's worth it.