Should rabbits get the first tee times? Yes a rant

[cardoustie]

What club? White t shirt under a sweater letter is a little harsh

[jvincent]

You still don't seem to get how a lottery system is supposed to work. Especially in the cast of reduced tee times.

My group usually plays at 9AM on weekends. So far I've gotten that time (plus or minus 10 minutes) 4 out of 4 times. This weekend we got 1:10 on both days. That's the way a fair lottery system works. The more often you get your requested time the higher the chance you'll get a different time in the next draw.

Having the rabbits go first isn't opening up more tee time spots so just be happy you are golfing at all.

[Under2hours]

All it takes is one person, and one of the club pros took me aside. Not a big deal, & more made me laugh as it was a white tshirt bought in the pro shop that said Nike Golf. Remember this was being first off, probably ran to locker room to change shoes and leave before 11:00 am....

Clubs have very serious rules (as many know) and breaching a single one can be an issue. I also wear at times (when playing late afternoon and chasing sunset lululemon shorts with a fake fly & tucked in drawstrings......

And Lululemons like these....

 

[hurley999s]

Skimmed through here and here’s my thoughts:

1) agree with someone awhile back who said, regardless of what’s said here, it’s up to the club. So #1 goal here is brush up your talking points and present to your pro, GM, etc. Go get buy in from other members to strengthen your case...you know, usual politics/lobbying stuff

OR -

2) befriend your pro/GM and ask for the hookup. If you haven’t done this already, it will come across as fake, because it is, and will be obvious...but if you do have a good relationship with them already, it just makes presenting your case (#1) that much easier.

[Under2hours]

No you don't if there is 6 tee times & 18 apply if you don't get one of the 6, should you then be pushed to the next hour if there are more then 6 in that time slot.? I say no you are s@!t out of luck. Tomorrow where I cancelled we got the next hour even though we didn't request it and bumped people in that hour.

[BNGL]

Just to offer another side having worked on the golf course and at private operations there is no simple answer in times right now. We’re doing the best we can, I don’t know your place in particular but I’d reckon they are too.

As far as a lottery system goes that’s one way, I know some clubs aren’t allowing tee times till 9 am first is at 11 and only on the 15 of each hour (1100, 1115, 1130, 1145, 1200 and so on). The reason being they know people will make the same time a week out and no call no show and they lose that time.

I totally get that this is a rant and I understand I see both sides of what your saying but at the same your not the only member they’re concerned about. They have 228 other people or whatever the number is that they have to try to divi up limited times too and there’s surely more than a few that like to play first off for whatever reason.

for the record I did read your post and admittedly I may not have totally understood some of the incoherence and if I did misunderstand and overstate my opinion I do apologize for that.

[BNGL]

Please understand that I am not saying the op is that member but that happens at every private club (or any club I’d imagine) already. I can name the 11 that were a pain in the butt at Oakmont, I can name the 4-5 that were a pain at Bay Hill, I can name the 8-9 that were a pain at Jupiter Island.

No matter what you do it’s never quite good enough which is fine, but being a member doesn’t give you the right to 1) be rude to my staff; 2) disrespect the rules of my golf course and the club; or 3) just generally be a nasty person. You have no idea how many times I have gotten the, “Do you know who I am?” Phrase from a member? I would generally laugh and say, “no but I do now” part of the reason my guys ran through walls for me and made me look good so I’d always have their backs, and my GM liked me and the green committee chair and I played golf every Saturday morning and 380 out of 389 members thought we did an excellent job so you gotta read the situation lol.

 

again this ain’t directed at the OP just a commentary to caniac6 posting of that member...I’m sure anyone reading this who’s worked at a private club knows exactly who those members are

[jvincent]

As I explained earlier, lottery requests should be serviced based on your cumulative differential from time requested to time won. If you get your time 6 in a row because nobody else wants it then on the 7th week if somebody wants an early slot and hasn't gotten the times they wanted before then they would get preference. That's the only fair way.

Lotteries are used when the number of applicants exceeds the number of available spots. Somebody wins and somebody else loses.

If you are suggesting that only 6 groups are are allowed to book in the first hour that doesn't seem very fair.

[ohioglfr]

When I clicked on your topic, I thought it said, Should Rabbi's get the first tee times . . .

I need new glasses.

[CaseyC]

On a Saturday no less!

[caniac6]

Upon further explanation by the OP, my reaction was a bit harsh, but I’ve worked at courses, and been a member at courses where a few members seemed to go out of their way to be, and make everyone else miserable. I always thought that the course was a place to enjoy yourself. Not everything is going to be perfect, but there is always a whole lot more good than bad. I said in another thread that it’s easy to be a good guy, but you have to work hard to be a jerk.

[BNGL]

Oh 1000 percent those numbers I have are fairly accurate there’s a handful at every property that straight up suck...but a vast majority of members are terrific to work with. Just the same as life most people very nice people and ahandful that blow

[Under2hours]

Again as the rabbits, they do not always give us the first time for exactly that (optics), but in almost 100% of the cases we are within the next two & those earlier let us take their times (knowing our POP) and if there is a group that does tee off at 6:30, they have let us play through by the 3rd hole..... Everyone is friendly and happy about it and has created no issues.

The lottery as I said I appreciate & yes will not always get the first tee time. Today we are 8th (so I did pass). But I will hold to the notion that if you want 8:00-9:00 you should be one of the first 6 to request it. If only 3 groups request 9:00-10:00, they should tee off between 9:00-10:00. If 6 chose 9:00-10:00, the 7th drawn in the 8:00-9:00 shouldn't bump someone in the 9:00-10:00.

But to me it makes sense is first 6 are in a draw for that hour & then if 7th on the system, choose another time. BTW next Saturday's lottery is up (been for hours & we are the only one's for now who have requested 8:00-9:00 am, thus it is not that the system is flooded with requests.

[LeoLeo99]

Did that once. Got banned. They don't like it when you do that.

 

[Hawkeye77]

No knock on anywhere anyone wants to play, but glad I don't currently play where something might get me a "letter", lol.

Was down that road many moons ago. Wife and I got in on a new member drive at a course near where we were living shortly after we got married. Great deal, could buy in relatively cheap, got into a couples league, had to eat a few meals, nice pro, 95% friendly atmosphere.

One Sunday evening, I got there, went to the fist tee and a guy and his wife and kids were just going over and down the hill from the first tee. I put my bag down and sat on it, and decided to go ask the pro if I could go off the back. I let out a sigh, apparently too loud, but nothing intended as any kind of a message, lol, just normal for me, kind of Eyeore thing, and was halfway to the clubhouse, when the guy started yelling at me - I turned around and could just see his head bobbing over the hill and no kidding, he was literally screaming "do you want to play through" and then a couple other things that may or may not have shocked his wife and kids. I just pointed at the back nine and gave him a nice wave and smile and continued on.

So . . . . Monday morning I get asked by one of my bosses who was a member what I did to so and so over the weekend. Turns out he called someone on the board and lodged a complaint about my behavior. I was dumbfounded. Anyway, said guy had a pretty bad reputation as a hothead and a jerk. Nonetheless I dutifully met with said board member who basically let me know that he didn't think it should go further, the pro told him the other guy was acting like a fool but very adroitly suggested I make a point of finding said fool and offer an apology. He was also a high school golf coach - so I found him later that day at another course and went up to him and he didn't even recognize me, accepted my apology with a little head chuck and I got out of there. Yikes. The incident did end up providing me with some "status" among members as the kid so and so yelled at and so I got to know people at the club a lot more quickly and got to play golf with some folks I probably wouldn't have, so silver lining there. Once in a while that summer in couples league some guys would yell back at my wife and I, "do you want to play through", lol, I was worried that was going to get me in trouble again, but they enjoyed running with it. But, it was a good lesson about remembering just because you are young and full of beans you need to remember where you are and who is around even if you are talking to yourself, so to speak.

Again, 95% of the folks there were just super and welcoming and had we not moved we would have enjoyed continuing to play golf there. Heck, one of the members found someone who wanted to join to buy out my certificate at full value when we moved, didn't even think that was possible.

[davep043]

"But I will hold to the notion that if you want 8:00-9:00 you should be one of the first 6 to request it."

Let's be clear, you want a slightly modified First-come First-served system, instead of a true lottery. You've repeatedly said that you don't deserve to play that early if you can't be one of the first 6 groups to sign up. The best thing for you to do is to go to management and make the suggestion. Perhaps there are others who feel the same way. Find some allies, present a united group and present a positive suggestion with appropriate backing from members. Maybe you can get the current system revised.

[Under2hours]

I think they may have. The point very simply was that originally you requested a specific time 8:00 or 8:10 or 2:40...... When they moved to this 1 hour slot to me it only makes sense that it is closed off once all those 6 slots are filled. Please someone explain why it doesn't and again it is not thousands of people jamming the lines when the lottery opens (as we are still the only one's requesting 8:00-9:00 am next Saturday)?

 

Again if I forget (as do the others in our foursome) to reserve a time and the 6 slots are filled, then I choose an open slot or don't play.

 

Finally someone explain let's say 15 groups are allowed to request 8:00-9:00 & there are 6 in the 9:00-10:00. Should those in the 9:00-10:00 get bumped by those 9 groups that lost out in the 8:00-9:00 (as happened to us today 9:10 tee off).

[davep043]

Not a single person on GolfWRX can answer your questions, not a single one of us was in the room when the decisions were made. Possible reasons for the choices have been provided a number of times, and you simply don't like the answers so you dismiss or ignore them. Why don't you do something that could be productive? Why don't you ask the people who developed your system? Why not lobby them to revise the system from a "modified lottery" as it is now to the "modified first-come" that you would prefer? Stop complaining and start acting.

[Under2hours]

No I asked simply if it made any sense at all..... I can voice my opinions with my partners & on an anonymous forum. We haven't even been open two weeks, so no I am not going to be "that guy" yet with the GM or others & did my rant here and gauged opinions.

And yes I don't understand why they don't cut off the 1 hour block at 6 groups & have not seen a single thought out response. BTW 6 hours after the lottery went up, we are now at three groups requesting 8-9 & three 9-10, so we are not seeing a deluge rushing to get on. But if by Tuesday midnight when the lottery closes there are 18, then again an issue.

[Greenie]

Please excuse me if I missed something reading through the thread or didn't comprehend something you said correctly Under2hours.

There was a public course I played some yrs ago that used a lottery system because of such a high demand to play there. I'm not sure if your club's lottery is the same or not but I'll chime in from my experience.

It is a lottery system. This course did time slots too If there are six spots in the time slot available to close off the slot after the first six calls isn't exactly a lottery dealing with the amount of demand. All this is doing is lottering the time spots among the six groups in that time block. You will still have the same people rushing to make that early time spot every week. That seems to me a more of a first come first serve approach which I feel your club is trying to eliminate at the moment do to high demand.

As you are saying right now there isn't a rush when the lottery starts. There is no need for a rush to get in the lottery because it isn't the first six. I found in my case the rush came right before closing of the lottery on Tues evening for the weekend times drawn on Wed. morning.

This course also had problems with people being bumped from the first time slot on down. They had people complaining, canceling when they were given a later time block causing them to back out do to they couldn't start that late. They refined their lottery.

You put in for the time slot or slots you were willing to play. You could put in for multiple time slots. Starting with the earliest block they picked names and once your name was picked that was your spot. If you put in for later times too you were not eligible to win. You could not win multiple times and choose. If you only put in for the one time slot and you didn't get it you were done. By doing this it eliminated giving people times they didn't want in the first place. It also allowed them to charge you a fee if you cancelled after winning.

I would always put in for 7-11. I won the 11 block a few times but never won anything earlier.

Under2hours the only problem I see is the lottery is bumping on down the line. They should eliminate that and do something similar as above . They are wasting time giving someone a time to far out from the time they want. As far as the other part. You have less tee times and they went to a lottery. Now you have people trying to move in on your early tee times you are use to. As you say you may have 18 groups wanting that first spot and only 6 are going to win it. Right now demand is high and there are less times available. The lottery is to give everyone a chance at a tee time and to prevent that mad rush to get that tee time in. I know it doesn't seem right since you have had that time but at the moment until things settle down the course is trying to be fair to all their members. As time goes on there will less wanting the first slot and your odds will go up getting a slot.

 

[caniac6]

I don't think asking the GM or the Pro for a bit of an explanation about how the lottery works would make you "That Guy". I don't think it's unreasonable to ask.

[pingfool]

15min tee times best thing to happen in mass. We have played every round under 4hrs. Very hard to catch the group in front of you

[deadsolid...shank]

I agree with this 100%. It doesn’t sound like you’ve been “that guy” about any of this. There is no reason you can’t simply ask for their reasoning behind how they’re dealing with this issue.

[Greenie]

I agree. It's been a while since I've enjoyed playing this much. No one ever behind us and went usually don't have to wait on the group ahead until late in the back nine.

I played Friday as a foursome and I was shocked when my friend told me we finished in 3:15.

One of my courses I play have posted since each person is required to have their own cart the expect play to finish at 3:30 and 4 hrs is considered slow.

We shared carts. I told the guy we all rode together so we already have what ever we are going to get from each other.

[davep043]

You make no sense. Why is it a problem if people wait until just before the deadline to enter the lottery? That's completely within the rules, there's no need for anyone to rush to be first when the last entries have exactly the same chance at getting the tee time they desire.
Here's another reasonable explanation for you to reject, they may not have the software to close off certain blocks after 6 groups have asked for them. It has to be done automatically, because as soon as you tell people that its a first-come first serve system, they'll all be waiting at their computer for the starting bell. Someone will be 5 seconds late and get rejected.
I don't know about your club, but at mine, well-reasoned discussions and suggestions are welcome. They're not always acted upon, but its completely appropriate to politely suggest what you see as improvements. @caniac6 and @deadsolid...shank have the same opinion, clubs are navigating through new issues now, the good ones understand that they might not get things right at the first try.

[GSDriver]

Yes, early mornings, especially weekends, players should be of the faster type, set the pace for the course. For those who want a walk in the park, play twilight.

Thankfully, our course Pro knows who the faster groups are and we get out first...no reason golf in normal conditions should take more than 3 hours....we're not playing in the US Open.

[Gdane]

This line of thinking is one of the reasons I would never join a private. Having worked at various clubs over a 10 year period earlier in life, every place has people who think like this, that their time is more important than everyone elses, and it brings down the camaraderie of the place.

The best way to solve to OP's issue is to talk to the pro/starter. In case of slow play, hopefully the club's caddies have been empowered to marshal the course and keep players at a reasonable pace.

[deadsolid...shank]

You characterize the private clubs as having people who think their time is more important (which I don’t necessarily disagree with in general) and then want the caddies to marshal the course!? How well do you suppose that will go over with those people who think their time is more important? “Hey Mr Jones, I’m caddieing in the group behind you and you’re off pace, you need to pick it up”. Yeah, that’s going to work.

Any smart pro is going to want to get the day’s play off to a good start. And sending out a group that is known to be slower than the normal pace is just setting the day up for problems. Doesn’t have anything to do with anyone’s time being more important than someone else’s, it’s simply using the available time in the day in the most efficient way possible.

[ArtMBgolf]

I know a course that used to have a tee time lottery because they had more members than tee times. Requesting 8-9am might mean not

getting any tee time, so more would say 8-12. They had 3 courses, so the members could say one course or any course. A good computer program, could

favor early entry into the lottery, but I don't know if that was done.

 

If the Rabbits request 8-9 and get it in that block, I would agree to bump them to first off.

If some are not getting any tee time in the lottery, due to demand, then the rabbits probably shouldn't be guaranteed a tee time.

A lot will depend on if there is one clear rabbit group. I will get harder if you have a bunch of rabbit groups wanting the first spots.

 

[Under2hours]

If the group ahead plays in 3:00 (our pace), then I don't care at all.

Today will be a litmus test. The first group (we're #2) are all decent players but don't rush around the course, play to score (and play the ball down) & I seldom see them on the sheet before 8:30 (generally 9:00-10:30). They wouldn't change spots with us (and emailed them politely) and expect 3:45. The 10 minutes I asked them, will in all likelihood cost us 45 minutes (+10).

It is not the first tee time I am vying for, it is the 3:00 hour POP.