Cheating in the Club Championship

[antip]

1 minute ago, oikos1 said:

"My friend and I were both suspicious and questioned what happened, but the problem is that we did not witness him chunking his 3rd shot and therefore could not prove him wrong."

 

Seems pretty obvious there wasn't much the OP could do.  What are you going to do, go to a committee and say "I didn't see player A hit his shot, but I'm suspicious that he cheated".

 

Committees would be bogged down for weeks with that kind of nonsense.  You either saw it or you didn't, end of story.

Nonsense. You are selectively ignoring key evidence. Every player in the stroke play field has equal input and responsibility to protect the field relating to what they witness and the clear advice from other players in the field was there was an additional stroke played.

[oikos1]

36 minutes ago, antip said:

Nonsense. You are selectively ignoring key evidence. Every player in the stroke play field has equal input and responsibility to protect the field relating to what they witness and the clear advice from other players in the field was there was an additional stroke played.

 Ignoring evidence?  What evidence?  OP clearly said he didn't see him hit the shot.  You must like to make decisions based on hearsay, not facts.  That's exactly what the committee would have to do.

 

Now, if the players who were behind saw an infraction, and they somehow knew what stroke the player was playing and subsequent score the player submitted and they felt he hit an extra shot, then it would be incumbent upon those who witnessed the infraction to report, not those who based their belief in "suspicion".

 

 

[farmer]

Agree with Oikos.  If OP and FC did not see what happened, they are depending on a player on an adjacent hole to be correct.  If I was that suspicious, I would have walked by his ball before marking my own.  Given the circumstance, OP did what he could.  

[Sawgrass]

4 minutes ago, farmer said:

Agree with Oikos.  If OP and FC did not see what happened, they are depending on a player on an adjacent hole to be correct.  If I was that suspicious, I would have walked by his ball before marking my own.  Given the circumstance, OP did what he could.  

You two have conveniently ignored the OP’s having witnessed the offender’s ball coming to rest 15-20 yards short of the green, them miraculously appearing 5 yards short.  How do you think it got there?

[MadGolfer76]

I would have been all like "Dude, I'm a high school principal...try again." And then I would have squinted at him with my beady little principal eyes with my arms crossed. If that (somehow) failed, I'd use the silent stare if he gave another false answer. Teenagers can't handle the silent stare...

[HatsForBats]

8 hours ago, oikos1 said:

 Ignoring evidence?  What evidence?  OP clearly said he didn't see him hit the shot.  You must like to make decisions based on hearsay, not facts.  That's exactly what the committee would have to do.

 

Now, if the players who were behind saw an infraction, and they somehow knew what stroke the player was playing and subsequent score the player submitted and they felt he hit an extra shot, then it would be incumbent upon those who witnessed the infraction to report, not those who based their belief in "suspicion".

 

 

One shot from tee, one shot near green from fairway, chip on and 2-putt was witnessed by OP's group. If someone else witnessed a chunked shot near the green, that ended up short of the green, then the lowest possible score is a 6. Unless you think the OP is just imagining the kid hitting a fairway shot and instead the kid drove their tee shot to within 5 yards of the green? ie. in order to make a 5 with a chunked shot near the green, chip on and 2-putt the kid would have had to hit his tee shot to within 15-20 yards of the green on a par 5. This isn't just suspicion it is proof. Six strokes witnessed between 2 groups and the kid reports a 5 should equal a disqualification.

[clinkinfo]

On 8/19/2020 at 6:07 PM, Myherobobhope said:

A good high school golfer I played with told a similar story about himself at that age, and how he learned a lesson and never cheated again... he want on to play golf at Texas. That golfers name? I don't remember... (I'm also not confident he never cheated again, but whatever)

 

Regardless, I think you did the right thing by confronting him and not making a huge deal about it... Hopefully he learns his lesson, you didn't "ruin his reputation" and moving forward, maybe he will be more honest.

 

I don't think you have any responsibility to do more than that, and I can't see it helping the kid by going public with it... He already had a reputation, so hopefully he gets it together. 16 is a tough age... 

 

 

I think the op handled it well.

 

this conversation is great for the “feel good” side of this integrity filled game Of golf.  BUT, in reality, I see cheating all the time.  The kids playing in junior tournaments here have been banned from using poker chip ball markers on the green ( because they are big, Have to be moved, and always seem to get moved Back closer to the hole).  The game is full of cheating, there are even pros who are known to cheat.  I’m pretty sure I watched someone win a big tournament a few weeks ago improving multiple lies before chipping.  It’s not this “integrity” filled wonderland some would like to believe IMO.
 

Golf just reflects who someone is.   If you bend the rules in life, you bend the rules in golf.  And those who measure if they should do it by the probably of getting caught will always be around.  Nothing more, nothing less.  

[CactusGolf]

We had a similar issue a few years ago.  Head pro spoke with the parent and let him know that if it happened again, the child would not be allowed to play going forward.  Behavior happened again at another event and child was banned from playing in any club events.

[Myherobobhope]

57 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

 

I think the op handled it well.

 

this conversation is great for the “feel good” side of this integrity filled game Of golf.  BUT, in reality, I see cheating all the time.  The kids playing in junior tournaments here have been banned from using poker chip ball markers on the green ( because they are big, Have to be moved, and always seem to get moved Back closer to the hole).  The game is full of cheating, there are even pros who are known to cheat.  I’m pretty sure I watched someone win a big tournament a few weeks ago improving multiple lies before chipping.  It’s not this “integrity” filled wonderland some would like to believe IMO.
 

Golf just reflects who someone is.   If you bend the rules in life, you bend the rules in golf.  And those who measure if they should do it by the probably of getting caught will always be around.  Nothing more, nothing less.  

 

Yeah, I think the idea that if we publicly shame people for cheating it will keep others from cheating is spurious at best... Some kids (and adults) are just going to cheat and/or avoid punishment...

 

At the Member-Member recently, our club president was stuck on 1 due to split tee times and went down to the range to hit some practice shots... That days scores were a best ball, so I'm not confident if or how a penalty would have been applied... one of our assistant pros told him it was against the rules (I was on 9 and driving off, so I didn't hear the full conversation)... I'm not sure what he did or if he took any penalty strokes... I know he didn't win the tournament. Did I have an obligation to make a big deal out of it? (or at least verify he took penalty strokes?) I don't know... Maybe I have some odd obligation to the honor of golf to make sure he took penalty strokes (or had his round thrown out). Instead, I just ignored it. 

 

Golf is weird. I tend to worry about myself and make sure I'm following the rules... I let other people sort themselves out. 

[Sawgrass]

8 minutes ago, Myherobobhope said:

 

Yeah, I think the idea that if we publicly shame people for cheating it will keep others from cheating is spurious at best... Some kids (and adults) are just going to cheat and/or avoid punishment...

 

At the Member-Member recently, our club president was stuck on 1 due to split tee times and went down to the range to hit some practice shots... That days scores were a best ball, so I'm not confident if or how a penalty would have been applied... one of our assistant pros told him it was against the rules (I was on 9 and driving off, so I didn't hear the full conversation)... I'm not sure what he did or if he took any penalty strokes... I know he didn't win the tournament. Did I have an obligation to make a big deal out of it? (or at least verify he took penalty strokes?) I don't know... Maybe I have some odd obligation to the honor of golf to make sure he took penalty strokes (or had his round thrown out). Instead, I just ignored it. 

 

Golf is weird. I tend to worry about myself and make sure I'm following the rules... I let other people sort themselves out. 

If your pro was already involved, unless you were his marker you certainly did not have a further obligation. And if I understand your story correctly, the President simply got a 2sp, probably taking himself out of that one hole.

[oikos1]

4 hours ago, HatsForBats said:

One shot from tee, one shot near green from fairway, chip on and 2-putt was witnessed by OP's group. If someone else witnessed a chunked shot near the green, that ended up short of the green, then the lowest possible score is a 6. Unless you think the OP is just imagining the kid hitting a fairway shot and instead the kid drove their tee shot to within 5 yards of the green? ie. in order to make a 5 with a chunked shot near the green, chip on and 2-putt the kid would have had to hit his tee shot to within 15-20 yards of the green on a par 5. This isn't just suspicion it is proof. Six strokes witnessed between 2 groups and the kid reports a 5 should equal a disqualification.

That's a nice story.  Too bad you have conveniently left out the part where the OP clearly stated neither he nor his partner saw him hit so you are just making things up when you say  "Six strokes witnessed between 2 groups".  That's just not true.

 

12 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

You two have conveniently ignored the OP’s having witnessed the offender’s ball coming to rest 15-20 yards short of the green, them miraculously appearing 5 yards short.  How do you think it got there?

 If OP truly believed the third shot was chunked and he made a 6, mark it down and then deal with it at the clubhouse.  Clearly he and the other player in the group didn't feel they had enough evidence to record a six. 

[TourSpoon]

12 hours ago, MadGolfer76 said:

I would have been all like "Dude, I'm a high school principal...try again." And then I would have squinted at him with my beady little principal eyes with my arms crossed. If that (somehow) failed, I'd use the silent stare if he gave another false answer. Teenagers can't handle the silent stare...

The principal always comes out in me especially in the face of teenage BS so I can totally relate. I probably would have said, "Ok, that's a 6 for you." If he argued it would have been, "You lie (pun intended) two 25 yards short, hit a shot onto the green from 5 yards, and two putt. What exactly am I missing here?  Enlighten me on how you ended up chipping from 5 yards off the green." This would allow him to save some face, agree, and move on knowing he got called out with the "look" being employed the entire time. 

 

For the OP, I think you did fine with what you had to work with. Confronting people when you are caught off guard is not an easy skill and you were sensitive to his age. He has the reputation for cheating which will follow him. If you feel he did not learn his lesson you could always alert the committee to the fact that he was man enough to admit it after the fact and that future markers need to keep an eye on him. It will probably get around on its own as 4 people know and these things tend to get around. 

[manku]

Let me get this straight...you know he has a a reputation as a cheater, and then when caught cold cheating, think it's important to protect his reputation...as a cheater???

 

If this were an unknown 16 year old, I might let it slide...but being lied to my face would make it difficult.

 

However clearly he has been doing this quite often...my question is why a private club allowed him to compete in the first place?   Cheating reputations don't appear out of thin air.

 

At least you didn't buy him a Fresca!

[sui generis]

My club doesn't permit kids to play in the club championship. Reason? They'd win every time. My friend's son is a college player and +3.5. Sorry, they said, when you join the club on your own you may play.

[Krt22]

52 minutes ago, sui generis said:

My club doesn't permit kids to play in the club championship. Reason? They'd win every time. My friend's son is a college player and +3.5. Sorry, they said, when you join the club on your own you may play.

Same with my club, only the main member can enter a lot of the bigger events

[MadGolfer76]

10 hours ago, TourSpoon said:

The principal always comes out in me especially in the face of teenage BS so I can totally relate. I probably would have said, "Ok, that's a 6 for you." If he argued it would have been, "You lie (pun intended) two 25 yards short, hit a shot onto the green from 5 yards, and two putt. What exactly am I missing here?  Enlighten me on how you ended up chipping from 5 yards off the green." This would allow him to save some face, agree, and move on knowing he got called out with the "look" being employed the entire time. 

 

For the OP, I think you did fine with what you had to work with. Confronting people when you are caught off guard is not an easy skill and you were sensitive to his age. He has the reputation for cheating which will follow him. If you feel he did not learn his lesson you could always alert the committee to the fact that he was man enough to admit it after the fact and that future markers need to keep an eye on him. It will probably get around on its own as 4 people know and these things tend to get around. 

 

Haha. We should implement "restorative justice" practices on the golf course. "For every profanity, you need to fix five ball marks on the next green. Then, do a reflective essay about how your behavior impacted others..."

[Hawkeye77]

Maybe wishful thinking he learned a real lesson? But if not he’ll have a reckoning at some point. 
 

OP, with the additional evidence, should have reported - he then had his suspicions confirmed and that evidence was plenty to justify having the matter aired. 
 

Having said that, I wasn’t there and can’t say I would have done anything different. 

 

[HatsForBats]

On 8/21/2020 at 12:25 PM, oikos1 said:

That's a nice story.  Too bad you have conveniently left out the part where the OP clearly stated neither he nor his partner saw him hit so you are just making things up when you say  "Six strokes witnessed between 2 groups".  That's just not true.

 

 If OP truly believed the third shot was chunked and he made a 6, mark it down and then deal with it at the clubhouse.  Clearly he and the other player in the group didn't feel they had enough evidence to record a six. 

 

All from the original post:

 

Stroke 1: All 3 players hit good drives in the fairway

Stroke 2: the junior member pulled his approach shot roughly 15-20 yards short and left of the green

Stroke 3: a player in the preceding group told us that HE had witnessed the duffed chip

Stroke 4, 5 and 6: His chip landed on the green and he two-putted

 

The only way it could be a 5 is if the duffed chip that the other group witnessed was the same chip that the kids playing partners witnessed. If the preceding group confirms that the chip they witnessed did not make it on the green, which I am making the assumption it did not by the use of 'Duffed chip', or that they witnessed the kid make 2 total chip shots then the lowest possible score is a 6.

[oikos1]

17 minutes ago, HatsForBats said:

 

All from the original post:

 

Stroke 1: All 3 players hit good drives in the fairway

Stroke 2: the junior member pulled his approach shot roughly 15-20 yards short and left of the green

Stroke 3: a player in the preceding group told us that HE had witnessed the duffed chip

Stroke 4, 5 and 6: His chip landed on the green and he two-putted

 

The only way it could be a 5 is if the duffed chip that the other group witnessed was the same chip that the kids playing partners witnessed. If the preceding group confirms that the chip they witnessed did not make it on the green, which I am making the assumption it did not by the use of 'Duffed chip', or that they witnessed the kid make 2 total chip shots then the lowest possible score is a 6.

Excellent work!  And as I already pointed out, which you have pointed out again, the player in the proceeding group, upon hearing that the duffed chipped was not recorded, is the one who should've gone to the committee.  That player, who claims to have witnessed the duffed chip, has the most compelling direct evidence that a violation occurred as he actually witnessed the event.  The OP and other player in the group can only add circumstantial evidence and their own suspicions.  I don't understand the convenience in ignoring the OP's own statement that he did not see the "chunked" third shot.

 

What is most curious, however, comes form the OP's very first paragraph: "but he has a reputation as a cheater and my friend and I were forewarned accordingly by other members and staff".  So he has a reputation as a cheater, yet he is allowed to play in the tournament.  Surely, if there were confirmed and convicted cases of cheating, those in charge of the tournament would not have allowed the player to enter the tournament.  Could it be that other players have also had suspicions of cheating but not had enough evidence to warrant a formal accusation of cheating?

[Warrior42111]

So, I'll take a page out of my coaching (football) experience here to the overall take.

 

This young man has been mentioned as a cheater before, was he caught, how was he told, yelled at, a polite talking to, or just reported an no one saying anything to him? 

 

The point being is every person especially and adolescent mind (not fully developed) learns best differently. Some of my players do best when yelled and pushed (mentally), others do best when the team is punished and they feel bad for hurting their teammates, others just need to be pulled aside after practice and talked to. The key to make this young person better and not to do it again is mind the way that clicks best in their mind so they learn and not do it again, whether it's calling him out publicly, a private chat as the OP did, or getting on him.

 

Does what I say solve this issue of this event, no. But hopefully just maybe it works and this person grows as an honorable athlete which is my main point.

[HatsForBats]

3 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Excellent work!  And as I already pointed out, which you have pointed out again, the player in the proceeding group, upon hearing that the duffed chipped was not recorded, is the one who should've gone to the committee.  That player, who claims to have witnessed the duffed chip, has the most compelling direct evidence that a violation occurred as he actually witnessed the event.  The OP and other player in the group can only add circumstantial evidence and their own suspicions.  I don't understand the convenience in ignoring the OP's own statement that he did not see the "chunked" third shot.

 

What is most curious, however, comes form the OP's very first paragraph: "but he has a reputation as a cheater and my friend and I were forewarned accordingly by other members and staff".  So he has a reputation as a cheater, yet he is allowed to play in the tournament.  Surely, if there were confirmed and convicted cases of cheating, those in charge of the tournament would not have allowed the player to enter the tournament.  Could it be that other players have also had suspicions of cheating but not had enough evidence to warrant a formal accusation of cheating?

 

The player in the preceding group and the players in the kids group would all need to be heard by the committee. I don't think it matters who goes to the committee as long as someone goes to the committee and all witnesses are consulted. No matter how you slice it, it takes separate witnesses (from 2 different groups) to piece together that the kid could not have scored a 5 on that hole. 

 

I have no idea why you think I am ignoring the OP's statement that he did not witness the chunked shot. I never ignored it. The player in the preceding group didn't witness the other 5 shots and the kids group didn't witness one of the shots.

[Hawkeye77]

Not sure why the focus is on who goes to the committee?  The evidence to support the charge is evidence coming from individuals in two different groups - anyone one with the info should be reporting it, and mentioning who has the other piece of the puzzle, or just go together.  Again, don't know what I would have done but letting it slide from day one to day two doesn't seem right no matter how he finished the second day. 

 

Isn't the answer any of the individuals with some, and knowing more, of the evidence had a responsibility to report it? I'm assuming the conversations were enough to confirm an issue based on what each of the individuals saw when their observations were combined.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Hawkeye77

[North Butte]

On 8/20/2020 at 9:46 PM, oikos1 said:

"My friend and I were both suspicious and questioned what happened, but the problem is that we did not witness him chunking his 3rd shot and therefore could not prove him wrong."

 

Seems pretty obvious there wasn't much the OP could do.  What are you going to do, go to a committee and say "I didn't see player A hit his shot, but I'm suspicious that he cheated".

 

Committees would be bogged down for weeks with that kind of nonsense.  You either saw it or you didn't, end of story.

I agree that if someone else says they witnessed cheating, it's up to them to tell it to the committee. I would only act on what I was 100% certain I had seen myself. 

[HatsForBats]

18 hours ago, North Butte said:

I agree that if someone else says they witnessed cheating, it's up to them to tell it to the committee. I would only act on what I was 100% certain I had seen myself. 

 

I am saddened and disappointed to hear that. It is my belief that the players have an obligation to inform the committee and let them investigate/decide. Heck if I just overheard the situation between the kids group and the preceding groups player I would have no qualms with informing the committee if I felt the other players were not reporting it. I would make it known that I am just reporting what I have overheard and that I did not witness anything. I would do my best to allow the field the chance to be protected if required.

[North Butte]

I simply don't traffic in hearsay or things that I think might have happened behind my back when I wasn't looking. Not in real life, certainly not in golf.

 

 

[sui generis]

59 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I simply don't traffic in hearsay or things that I think might have happened behind my back when I wasn't looking. Not in real life, certainly not in golf.

 

 

 

The Committee (and the field) would probably prefer Hats for Bats solution presented in the post before last.

[jholz]

I completely agree with everyone who says that cheating should be confronted and remedied - particularly for a kid like the one described in this post. If the kid really is a cheater, then that behavior needs to be stomped on hard. 

 

Having said that, the real issue here is not the kid, but rather the OP and his playing partner. They are the ones who let everyone down. They screwed themselves and the field by not watching their fellow competitor closely.

 

Ultimately, it is that failure which makes this situation complicated, and in fact, created the conditions in which cheating was allowed to take place.

 

In other words, I think @oikos1 has a valid point. 

[sui generis]

When confronted with the unexpected, the correct course of action is often not clear until after the round, or the next day or the next week. Then the most we can hope for is that we'll better prepared the next time. When the peanut gallery shouts that you should have done this or that, they weren't there and perhaps have never been "there" either.

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, jholz said:

They screwed themselves and the field by not watching their fellow competitor closely.

If you are saying that the OP was at fault for not always watching each player in his group, I heartily disagree.  People have other things to do, like playing/moving along briskly.

[manku]

27 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

If you are saying that the OP was at fault for not always watching each player in his group, I heartily disagree.  People have other things to do, like playing/moving along briskly.

Yeah...there is virtually no way that you can watch a competitor 24/7...this player probably cheats whenever he realizes that no one is watching (I know golfers like that).