Course Setup To Combat Today's Bomb-And-Gouge Game

[milesgiles]

2 hours ago, RobertBaron said:

Changing the tee box? Or tee height regulation?

 

3/4” tee maximum. Will force smaller headed drivers with smaller sweetspots, take out the 300 plus carries that are making courses redundant, and reward ball striking. 

 

Will also benefit the average amateur who is used to whaling away with a 460 and can’t get an iron in the air. No bifurcation, could do it next week. Simple 

[mahonie]

39 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

The way to combat bomb and gauge is to make courses shorter. Think about it....

 

I’ve said this before, my home course is 6100 yards from the tips, par 71 and the course record is 65...it’s been around for nearly 50 years. Tight, tree-lined with narrow fairways and small greens, it tests every club in the bag. Some people complain that they can’t get driver out on 14 holes (you only need or can get away with driver on 7 holes) and that you can’t use driver on one of the par 5s:

 

 

Although it is less than 500 yards it’s a proper 3-shotter...play it sensibly and you should have a shot at birdie but no way is it a gimme.

[mahonie]

51 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

The way to combat bomb and gauge is to make courses shorter. Think about it....

 

I’ve said this before, my home course is 6100 yards from the tips, par 71 and the course record is 65...it’s been around for nearly 50 years. Tight, tree-lined with narrow fairways and small greens, it tests every club in the bag. Some people complain that they can’t get driver out on 14 holes (you only need or can get away with driver on 7 holes) and that you can’t use driver on one of the par 5s:

 

 

Although it is less than 500 yards it’s a proper 3-shotter...play it sensibly and you should have a shot at birdie but no way is it a gimme.

Edited September 24, 2020 by mahonie
Double post!!

[mahonie]

50 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

The way to combat bomb and gauge is to make courses shorter. Think about it....

 

I’ve said this before, my home course is 6100 yards from the tips, par 71 and the course record is 65...it’s been around for nearly 50 years. Tight, tree-lined with narrow fairways and small greens, it tests every club in the bag. Some people complain that they can’t get driver out on 14 holes (you only need or can get away with driver on 7 holes) and that you can’t use driver on one of the par 5s:

 

 

Although it is less than 500 yards it’s a proper 3-shotter...play it sensibly and you should have a shot at birdie but no way is it a gimme.

Edited September 24, 2020 by mahonie
Triple post!!

[ThinkingPlus]

42 minutes ago, mahonie said:

 

I’ve said this before, my home course is 6100 yards from the tips, par 71 and the course record is 65...it’s been around for nearly 50 years. Tight, tree-lined with narrow fairways and small greens, it tests every club in the bag. Some people complain that they can’t get driver out on 14 holes (you only need or can get away with driver on 7 holes) and that you can’t use driver on one of the par 5s:

 

 

Although it is less than 500 yards it’s a proper 3-shotter...play it sensibly and you should have a shot at birdie but no way is it a gimme.

Well at least two times before.  ?  When I play our forward tees I only use driver once on the 4 par 5s and only 5 time total.  Generally too much risk and not enough reward or forced layups.

[Juice1121]

For all the people talking graduated rough(and I am one who is interested in this idea), how do you handle two fairways that are adjacent to one another. These guys would be getting benefits for hitting it further off line. They might be more enticed to bomb it even farther knowing their misses would be off the planet and closer to the lower rough in the next hole over. 

[EmperorPenguin]

I'm not a fan of graduated rough.  A traditional US Open setup is the fairway lined with two yards of 1.75" rough, then straight to primary at 4-5".  My contention is that the bomb-and-gouge game allows for highly-possible recoveries from 5" rough with wedges from inside 100 yards.  I propose growing the rough even taller when farther from the tee because actions should have consequences.  Proponents of bomb and gouge are laughing at the prospect of 4-5" rough, but far less likely if the rough at 360 is 10" tall--assuming he will first find it.

 

On second thought, yes I believe in graduated rough if farther means deeper rough.

[Shilgy]

5 hours ago, QuigleyDU said:

The way to combat bomb and gauge is to make courses shorter. Think about it....

Not according to Charley Hoffman. The old strategies are dead....

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bryson-dechambeau-changing-approach-to-the-pro-game-charley-hoffman

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, EmperorPenguin said:

I'm not a fan of graduated rough.  A traditional US Open setup is the fairway lined with two yards of 1.75" rough, then straight to primary at 4-5".  My contention is that the bomb-and-gouge game allows for highly-possible recoveries from 5" rough with wedges from inside 100 yards.  I propose growing the rough even taller when farther from the tee because actions should have consequences.  Proponents of bomb and gouge are laughing at the prospect of 4-5" rough, but far less likely if the rough at 360 is 10" tall--assuming he will first find it.

 

On second thought, yes I believe in graduated rough if farther means deeper rough.

Just 360yards out? Or 320 -380 or so? Why not just put up the same blue wall that had everyone so upset at the ANA ladies major? Build it 30 feet tall or so. 

 

5 hours ago, mahonie said:

 

I’ve said this before, my home course is 6100 yards from the tips, par 71 and the course record is 65...it’s been around for nearly 50 years. Tight, tree-lined with narrow fairways and small greens, it tests every club in the bag. Some people complain that they can’t get driver out on 14 holes (you only need or can get away with driver on 7 holes) and that you can’t use driver on one of the par 5s:

 

 

Although it is less than 500 yards it’s a proper 3-shotter...play it sensibly and you should have a shot at birdie but no way is it a gimme.

So for most pros it would be 7 iron 7 iron wedge? Looks to be about 200 to the first corner? Some pros could probably reach with 6 iron then three wood. Personally I don’t think a good hole mandates how you MUST play the hole. But yes, it would be a three shot hole for most.

[OrangeGravy]

I think the tour should go all in. Make every hole a drive-able par 4 of varying lengths. 250 yds-350yds. You'll get a little of everything off the tee and we can just get on with who the has the best short game from there. Maybe they can even add some targets in there, that if you hit them, the ball kicks out of a tube and finishes a couple of feet from the hole. I think that would get better ratings than golf does now. 

[QuigleyDU]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Not according to Charley Hoffman. The old strategies are dead....

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bryson-dechambeau-changing-approach-to-the-pro-game-charley-hoffman

I would take Geoff Ogilvy’s opinion over Charles. 
 

listen to this.. it is really really good!!

 

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-fried-egg-golf-podcast/id1131723994#episodeGuid=thefriedegg.podbean.com%2Fc6521d57-11e9-3141-bb50-f78f3a5e4200

[KrazyTrain18]

I still believe "bomb/gauge" is best countered by firm/fast conditions.  Certainly not always possible with weather but given the good conditions leading up to Winged Foot there was no excuse to have the greens as soft as they were.  It gave a massive advantage to guys like Bryson who could still stop the ball out of the rough when they're already hitting less club in than the field average.  Riviera, Olympia Fields & most Open Championships would show that long rough doesn't always equate to higher scores.  Making fairways important will be accomplished with firmer greens that are more difficult to hold out of the rough.  Set it up like this year and that result will be far more common.  In terms of Augusta, outside of Bubba in 2014 and Tiger early in his career we haven't seen distance really be the key strategy from any of the winners.  If it plays soft than yes bomb/gauge will probably do very well, but most years it's been no more effective than any other aspect.  

[mahonie]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Just 360yards out? Or 320 -380 or so? Why not just put up the same blue wall that had everyone so upset at the ANA ladies major? Build it 30 feet tall or so. 

 

So for most pros it would be 7 iron 7 iron wedge? Looks to be about 200 to the first corner? Some pros could probably reach with 6 iron then three wood. Personally I don’t think a good hole mandates how you MUST play the hole. But yes, it would be a three shot hole for most.

 

I typically play 3-hybrid (because it wants to go left and helps drawing it around the corner ?), 6-iron, 9-iron. It’s 217 yards to the trees to the right of the fairway so using the contouring you can run the ball into the fairway leaving 260 yards in to the flag. Fly-through doesn’t show it but it’s a steady slope all the way up to the green and you usually have to take 2 clubs more than the yardage suggests. Anything short and right of the green or long and left is dead.

 

If you can hit a 20-yard draw with driver you may get into range in 2, but whatever you hit you’re looking at 230 yards in which is playing 260. Hit 2 great shots and you have a chance of eagle. Anything left off the tee is lost ball or chip out but if played as intended, par is not difficult and there are plenty of looks at birdie over a season. Ultimate risk reward hole and the course has another 17 of similar ilk.

[Titleist99]

On 9/20/2020 at 7:04 PM, tgoodspe1991 said:

Nothing about the game needs to change at all. What Bryson did today at the US Open was spectacular and showed off his talent.

 

Bryson isn't the only long hitter in the game, but he's the only one that executed his game plan flawlessly and shot under par in the final round. There are numerous other "bomb and gouge" players that played horrendously and either missed the cut or finished 10+ strokes behind Bryson. So why do we need to change the game? Because Bryson's talent and flawless execution on Sunday in a Major made it look too "easy"? Well, it wasn't easy. He just played amazing golf in his own style.

 

Also, bifurcating the game literally achieves nothing but making golf boring to watch. Give all the Pros hickory clubs and balata balls and shorten the golf courses and guess what? The longest hitters will still be the longest hitters, they'll still have the same "advantages" they have now, and they'll still play the bomb and gouge game except now it's just going to be on shorter courses. The only thing that will change is instead of Bryson carrying the ball 330y through the air, he'll carry it 275y through the air with the same swing speed. And to me, that would be worse for the game than anything else.

My sentiments exactly! Change nothing and hold the regulations where they are ......let the game evolve.

[smashdn]

15 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Just 360yards out? Or 320 -380 or so? Why not just put up the same blue wall that had everyone so upset at the ANA ladies major? Build it 30 feet tall or so. 

 

So for most pros it would be 7 iron 7 iron wedge? Looks to be about 200 to the first corner? Some pros could probably reach with 6 iron then three wood. Personally I don’t think a good hole mandates how you MUST play the hole. But yes, it would be a three shot hole for most.

 

From the back tee box I really think most people I play with would hit a cut over the other hole's green and trees drop it in the fairway.  If you end up in the trees you punch out and play conservatively the rest of the way for a 5.  If not you are looking at a chance at 3.  You go in the hazard it looks like you can play out of it easily as well.  I wouldn't ever try to lay up in that sidehill area with hazard on the left.  Too much risk.  Just bomb a tree wood as far as you can.  I ripped an uphill three wood from the fairway 250 the other day after a bad drive in a scramble.  It was the best 3wood I have ever hit in a round though.

 

I can't hit that cut.  I'd just shape a draw around the corner.  If it less than 500 yards after a fair drive I would have a 4i or 5i to the green if the drive was in the fairway.  If not get it out and down as far as I can and have 7i or so into the green.  

 

It looks like a hard hole if you are wild and can't shape the ball.

[mahonie]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

From the back tee box I really think most people I play with would hit a cut over the other hole's green and trees drop it in the fairway.  If you end up in the trees you punch out and play conservatively the rest of the way for a 5.  If not you are looking at a chance at 3.  You go in the hazard it looks like you can play out of it easily as well.  I wouldn't ever try to lay up in that sidehill area with hazard on the left.  Too much risk.  Just bomb a tree wood as far as you can.  I ripped an uphill three wood from the fairway 250 the other day after a bad drive in a scramble.  It was the best 3wood I have ever hit in a round though.

 

I can't hit that cut.  I'd just shape a draw around the corner.  If it less than 500 yards after a fair drive I would have a 4i or 5i to the green if the drive was in the fairway.  If not get it out and down as far as I can and have 7i or so into the green.  

 

It looks like a hard hole if you are wild and can't shape the ball.

 

From the back tee box there is a tree 40’ high directly adjacent to the left hand side of the tee which blocks the cut shot (not that clear on video). Also the pines trees 50 yards in front of the tee are over 100’ high. If you are in the trees, if you can find your ball in the brambles and high rough, the pines are so dense that it is difficult to chip sideways and find the fairway. Also you are probably no more than 150 yards from the tee leaving 350 yards to the green. The angle of the dogleg makes it almost impossible to hit driver...3-wood is a better bet but you’d better have that draw spin going...but not too much because the trees tighten on the left hand side. The brook cuts into the fairway between 160-130 yards from the pin and collects anything in the fairway due to the slope. The green is 12 yards front-to-back with a false front.

 

A mini-Pro Tour (Assistant Pros) event was played there a couple of years ago. Stroke average was 6.06 for that hole for the field playing 488 yards long.

 

In 10 years I have seen the green hit in 2 on 2 occasions (I did it once off the yellow tees in a drought when it was running miles) and I’ve never seen an eagle. I’ve had more 9s than 4s!! But...everyone who plays it...loves it.

[oikos1]

Looks like a fun and visually appealing course to play.  However, four days of Tour Pros from the tips at 6100 yards and that course record would be destroyed.

[mahonie]

6 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Looks like a fun and visually appealing course to play.  However, four days of Tour Pros from the tips at 6100 yards and that course record would be destroyed.

 

You may be right. Here is the analysis from that mini event from a couple of years ago. Only 17 entrants and they were only assistant pros but check out the average score.

 

[King_Slender]

Tree lined courses. 

 

 

[gvogel]

Ha!  Nine pages on course set up, when the real answer is to change the equipment.

[oikos1]

4 hours ago, mahonie said:

 

You may be right. Here is the analysis from that mini event from a couple of years ago. Only 17 entrants and they were only assistant pros but check out the average score.

 

I'm not sure where you're going with this.  17 assistant pros on a day that we don't know the course conditions or the assistant's playing abilities? 

 

If you feel you have a challenging home course, I'm not going to argue that (I checked out the score card and the hole flyovers).  But if the suggestion is that a 6100 yard tree lined course is going to reign in the PGA professional's ability to score, that's ridiculous.  All you are doing in this scenario is taking driver out of their hands on certain holes, and that is entirely dependent on who is hitting the driver.  By the third day they would know which holes were getable and there would most likely be a sub 60 round shot by the end of a four day tournament and plenty of 61/62's.  Winning score for four days is easily in the mid minus twenties.

Edited September 26, 2020 by oikos1

[Titleist_PT23]

Make every hole a 100 yard par 3.

[gvogel]

On 9/24/2020 at 5:41 PM, milesgiles said:

 

3/4” tee maximum. Will force smaller headed drivers with smaller sweetspots, take out the 300 plus carries that are making courses redundant, and reward ball striking. 

 

Will also benefit the average amateur who is used to whaling away with a 460 and can’t get an iron in the air. No bifurcation, could do it next week. Simple 

Instead of regulating tee height, they should just reduce driver head size to 230 cc - 1/2 of current size.

[BirdieBob]

4 hours ago, King_Slender said:

Tree lined courses. 

 

 

Exactly!  Plant more trees in the rough.  Now go ahead and bomb it into the rough...ha, ha!!

 

[mahonie]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

I'm not sure where you're going with this.  17 assistant pros on a day that we don't know the course conditions or the assistant's playing abilities? 

 

If you feel you have a challenging home course, I'm not going to argue that (I checked out the score card and the hole flyovers).  But if the suggestion is that a 6100 yard tree lined course is going to reign in the PGA professional's ability to score, that's ridiculous.  All you are doing in this scenario is taking driver out of their hands on certain holes, and that is entirely dependent on who is hitting the driver.  By the third day they would know which holes were getable and there would most likely be a sub 60 round shot by the end of a four day tournament and plenty of 61/62's.  Winning score for four days is easily in the mid minus twenties.

 

My main point is that tree-lined courses, and I mean tall, densely planted trees, pretty much negate bomb and gouge and encourage a bit of guile, accuracy and ball-striking skill. I don’t doubt that PGA Tour pros would find a way to score well, but my other point is that the field in that mini-event (played in decent conditions) was primarily made up of younger generation + handicap golfers looking to get on Tour who struggled to break par (which was the winning score).

 

Scale the course architecture up to Tour-length courses and I think the distance debate would quieten down. If bombers were winning it would be because they’re straight as well which is where the real skill in driving is and fair play to them.

[NoCalHack]

7 hours ago, King_Slender said:

Tree lined courses. 

 

 

Simplest answer makes the most sense.

 

Right now, the risk reward of hitting it crooked and long is worth it.  Obviously, rough is not a significant enough deterrent, especially if you have a short iron in your hands.

 

-  As Brandel Chamblee advocates, make fairways wider commensurate with dispersion.  It may be counterintuitive, but if everyone is missing fairways, its better to miss 320 out than 280 out.

 

-  Make misses more penal.  Since rough doesn't do it, then make misses more penal with trees, deep bunkers, or water.  If you are going to try and bomb it and miss the fairway by 40 yards, you should have pay a price.  

 

Now if guys like Bryson can it hit 350 and straight, more power to him.  Golf is supposed to reward long and straight.  

 

[Sean2]

I saw on GC yesterday that BD hit 41% of the fairways and the rest of the field hit 39%. I thought that was interesting. 

[farmer]

BAD has won a single major.  He was the only player under par.  As tough as WF is, there are openings in front of many of the greens which allowed balls to be run on to the greens.  If the Open had been played during the heat of the summer, there might not have been anyone under par.  One outlier performance does not require a seismic shift in the game.

[ScottF]

29 minutes ago, farmer said:

BAD has won a single major.  He was the only player under par.  As tough as WF is, there are openings in front of many of the greens which allowed balls to be run on to the greens.  If the Open had been played during the heat of the summer, there might not have been anyone under par.  One outlier performance does not require a seismic shift in the game.

Back in 1997 when Tiger won the Masters by 12, the 2000 US Open by 15, and the British Open that same year by 8, talk was pretty similar that courses needed to be “Tiger Proofed”.  He was of course, a phenomenon who may never be matched but he did bring on a change in the way the game is played. Bryson is just the latest to rise to the top. He is getting so much attention because his approach is so different as well as successful. I agree that there is no need for a seismic shift just as there was none 20 years ago when Tiger was dominant.

Edited September 26, 2020 by ScottF

[milesgiles]

4 hours ago, gvogel said:

Instead of regulating tee height, they should just reduce driver head size to 230 cc - 1/2 of current size.

 

I could totally get on board with that. We went from persimmon to 460 in the blink of an eye. Same as anchored long putters, okayed by the buffoons both sides of the Atlantic who run this game.

 

just from a legal perspective it would be trickier than changing the tee. What if you’ve just bought one? How many million are in stock? You could compromise easier on tees, perhaps allow amateurs to use longer ones for a few years..