How do you feel about the modern, casual approach to golf?

[Dr. Block]

11 hours ago, Warrior42111 said:

Are you asking if I turn up my music to drown out a playing partners? No, it just for my listening in the cart. But yes in a my usual group one guy listens to  his device as well.

 

I don’t think anyone on a golf course should have to hear two different music sources going at the same time.  I think that is straight noise pollution. If a group must play music during a round, pick one guy and one speaker.  
 

It happens enough from different groups on the course playing their stuff way too loud, to have it coming from the same group would have me seeing red.  I know you didn’t ask for my opinion, but since this thread is a bit of a sounding board, I’m giving it. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Dr. Block

[RBGinn3]

No

[PedronNiall]

The lag is real.

Edited October 14, 2020 by PedronNiall

[PedronNiall]

On 10/11/2020 at 9:30 PM, miamistomp said:

 I was watching some old clips of Hogan playing Demaret and Porky Oliver in the US open and Oliver and Jimmy were wearing collarless shirts

 

I don't know many instances where a course would have an issue with someone wearing a v-neck, cardigan, or other kind of sweater in modern times. There might be some super stuffy clubs that insist on a collar or true turtleneck only, but I don't think I've played anywhere that stringent about attire. Tiger's mock turtlenecks and the like have also been given the pass on the tour so we know that there's at least some flexibility on modern courses and tours. Can't say what would have come up had Oliver dropped the sweater, but given he was playing in the US Open I'm sure he was more than fine with adhering to the expected standards of the day.

[miamistomp]

And here is Demaret looking cool and casual ( the other guy was also kind of famous )   I believe Jimmy  was first man to win 3 masters

     If you ask me ( nobody does) nothing looks tackier tha the shirts pros wear with all of the sponsor names- the human NASCAR look

Edited October 14, 2020 by miamistomp

[LeoLeo99]

IT was all downhill once we stopped wearing ties.

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, LeoLeo99 said:

IT was all downhill once we stopped wearing ties.

 

 

[LeoLeo99]

41 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

 

 

Now that is proper golf attire!  

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

3 hours ago, LeoLeo99 said:

IT was all downhill once we stopped wearing ties.

I'd love to see an alternate universe where brands like Nike and Under Armour make performance athletic tweed, HeatGear neckties, and moisture-wicking knickerbockers!

[golfwave]

On 10/7/2020 at 10:48 PM, PedronNiall said:

I think if we're honest, some of the rebellion around people pushing for change in golf is because the game was about staunch etiquette on the outside while women and minorities weren't allowed to join clubs and every effort was made to keep people out of the game if they weren't the "right kind" of people. Lots of docs and movies that feature golf into the early to mid 20th century show how Irish and American golfers were looked down on by Brits, how poor golfers were looked down on by the rich, and so on.

 

The core of the old golf world chose to try and keep others out rather than being inclusive, and so as those who weren't from the gentry gained the means to build and run courses, they and the people they catered to set the tone for how things would be. Private clubs were and often still are intentionally not a part of the game for those without the means to belong to them, and so I don't think the game as a whole cares as much for them. A few private clubs in a city likely aren't moving the volume of merchandise that all the public courses are. They probably aren't bringing nearly as many jobs. They also aren't as often able to host larger tournaments because they were built with the idea of only a minimal number of the right kind of people ever being on the grounds, so they're designed out of being a part of some events.

 

I'm obviously generalizing here. I know there are some clubs who saw the writing on the wall, had an aha moment that maybe they'd not been looking at things the right way, and changed their perspective. I just don't think that's been the case by and large and the insular nature of how more traditional clubs are still run means that while they can keep to the ideals of the old guard, they literally have no influence outside of their own fiefdoms. There are plenty of Golf & Tennis and Tennis-only clubs that still require dresses and skirts for the women, maybe even all white attire, and so on, but it hasn't stopped big brands from putting their mark on pro tennis; bright colored outfits, shorts on women, one pieces, and what have you have become more of what most associate with tennis now. The Tiger era of golf has most certainly put the rubber stamp on changing ideals about the whole of golf, and obviously not just through Tiger himself. I can think of two pros in particular with very loud clothing lines that they promote that might get you kicked out of a country club, collar or no. Fowler has also helped to popularize a crossover culture between golf and the cool kids of boarding and motocross.

 

If the traditionalists had been more interested in treating people as well in general as the etiquette that's tied to golf implied we should treat each other both on and off the course I doubt there would have been as drastic a shift as there has been from say the 70s on. I don't have much to say about the changes because they're mostly inevitable. The courses that have high prices and are ensconced in little well-to-do hamlets are going under more and more. Places like Top Golf rake in far more with far less upkeep and clearly far less tradition. Imagine asking a party of 10 next to you not to talk in your backswing while you're there.

 

I also think all this rules silliness will continue to push people away, appearing as governing bodies doing things to try and make themselves stay relevant rather than doing what's best for the game. Dinosaurs will die. Why roll the ball back when you could add some trees, grow rough, narrow fairways, and consider changes to green structures? Why try and make new golfers feel like they need to hold to ideals that are based on conformity for the sake of control and not for the betterment of the game?

 

I'm not a fan of music at the golf course anymore than I would be if I went rafting or hiking, as it's nice mostly hearing the sounds of nature and a bit of ribbing from the groups nearby if anything while playing. That said, as long as people aren't being disrespectful to each other and treat the course well I'm fine with whatever attire, music, and other rules or lack thereof a course has. I'll admit that I'm probably not going to frequent a course that is too relaxed, but that's just my preference. I'm not going to scream bloody murder about the changes overall, though. I'll speak with my dollars and in the end the bottom line is that the largest volume of dollars will speak most clearly. I don't know that staunch traditionalist courses are doing the right things when it comes to sustainability; I guess the next few decades will tell the tale.

 

Thus ends part 1 of my treatise on modern golf.

"I'll speak with my dollars and in the end the bottom line is that the largest volume of dollars will speak most clearly."

 

Very capitalistic! As long as we are free to act and choose, capitalism will sort it all out.

[Fairway14]

On 9/30/2020 at 12:53 PM, ZacR88 said:

I personally enjoy the etiquette and standards my club enforces and I hope it continues. 
 

For me it’s the one a very few places where there is somewhat of a formal atmosphere. One of the few places I can dress up. I’m 31, not an old stiff by any means. Even when I take my daughter to the course who is only 5 I make sure she is dressed the part. Shirt tucked in, skirt, etc. She doesn’t have to as per the rules but I know she enjoys it as well. 
 

 

 

Excellent !

[blueonblack]

On 10/12/2020 at 7:18 AM, Warrior42111 said:

Are you asking if I turn up my music to drown out a playing partners? No, it just for my listening in the cart. But yes in a my usual group one guy listens to  his device as well.

 

Do you guys not like each other?

[blueonblack]

On 10/11/2020 at 8:17 PM, Dr. Block said:

Couldn’t agree more, great post.  People are losing manners and decency in that regard.  It’s almost a daily occurrence when I go into a restaurant now that I will hear the chime of a text on a cellphone or somebody watching a video or playing a game with the sound at full chat.  
 

Its the same on the course.  People just don’t give a $*it anymore.  They will do their thing, and if it bothers you, too bad for you.  I’m just trying to learn to tolerate it now, because it’s not going to change. 

I think people are spoiled. If you are at the course so much you're "bored," just stay home?

 

The cancel culture thing is minute to minute everywhere. Ask someone not to do something, you may be taking your life in your hands. People get IRATE when asked NOT to do something.

I don't care what it is these days. They don't care either. It's THEIR world.

 

I generally would like to have a more "Caddy Shack experience" than stuffiness, but you can be a badass and not offend others. Its SO easy.

 

When people get uncomfortable in social situations, they reach for their phone.

 

How much do YOU reach for your phone on the course? Is it helping to calm those nerves? I think its peoples' "security blanket" now.

 

Hard shot....what does GOOGLE say? Hold me!!!

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by blueonblack

[BIG STU]

I have read through this thread and had to sometimes laugh

Now I was raised on a golf course so to speak in the 60s. My old man ran a public daily fee course. The only dress code was Gentlemen Must Wear Shirts in the Clubhouse. That was because my Step Mom worked in there and in the summer he employed several lady school teachers for a summer job. Now during the week a lot of professional hustlers hung out there and were of course dressed to the nines. The Wednesday afternoon and weekend warrior crowd anything went. So I kinda grew up in that culture even though my old man dressed sharply at all times.

Now when I started playing stipulated events and Mini Tours I dressed to the nines my old man taught me well.

 

I can remember when I moved here to the beach i joined a now defunct club called Indian Wells. There you had to wear proper golf attire to even hit on the range. Now in the last 6 years of it's existance the dress code was well relaxed. For Christ sakes they sold tee shirts with the club logo in the pro shop. All but the exclusive private clubs have relaxed their dress codes in the last 6 to 8 years. After all this is a tourist area. Me being as laid back as I am could care less

Now on here I know the subject of music has been flogged to death. I had never saw or heard it on the course until a year or so ago. In fact a friend of mine and his wife play music on the course and I have played with them several times. Now they are about the same age as I am and their tastes are about like mine. They do not blast it and I find it enjoyable. Of course I have retired from the Minis and big money matches and do not take golf seriously and am having fun.

My new home course Indigo Creek is real laid back. Actually at 63 years of age I am a younger member. We have 2 or 3 different Men's groups and I think 2 different Ladies groups. I play in the shoot out every Saturday and we have a lot of fun. Also play the once a month 9 and dine scramble with my wife. Everyone wears what they want to and no one gets huffy. In fact met one couple that dresses in the traditional Scottish attire. In fact I talked to them and they are stoked about doing some pics with my vintage Macgregor Tartan Staff bag with vintage clubs. I fact they are coming by this afternoon and borrow the bag and some Hickory clubs for props in some studio photos.

As far as me i do not dress shabby so to speak. I wear a decent golf shirt tail untucked, cargo or other shorts, big floppy Pukka Hat with shades and a big cigar. During the week I am usually on the range or putting green or sitting on the patio by the putting green. Yep retired 63 years old do not give 2 rips loving it

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Then of course there's this... A golfer was kicked off a course for wearing black (low) socks with his black golf shoes. 

 

Nothing like a bunch of self important stuffed shirts forcing a major fashion faux pas 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf-black-socks-white-socks-controversy

 

[atmorrow13]

On 9/30/2020 at 11:07 AM, me05501 said:

I'm almost 52 so during my golfing life I've noticed the evolution from stuffy etiquette-obsessed golf toward a more casual attitude from a lot of people. These days we see more street-inspired golf clothes, untucked shirts, on-course music, ready golf on every tee and basically a less uptight approach to behavior during a round. A lot of the old traditions seem to be fading fast. 

 

The horse is pretty much out of the barn on this so I'm not sure it makes any sense to resist it. We older guys are relying on the next generations to join clubs and support courses, otherwise there won't be any clubs and courses left as our generations age out of competitive play. 

Personally I embrace these relaxations of the stuffier side of things. Some of the most fun I've ever had on the course has been during casual rounds with good company. I'm lucky to live fairly close to Sweeten's Cove where having fun on the course is embraced and celebrated. That seems to be the way forward. No sense in looking back. 

 

Obviously most of us draw the line at disruptive behavior, damaging the course, or holding up play. I don't see much of that kind of behavior and I wouldn't be happy if I did. But it seems like the most important points of etiquette are still intact and people are choosing to have fun within their group and mostly leaving other groups be (so far at least). 

 

What's your point of view? 

Beautifully said, sir. Your views remind me of one of my closest friends who is 10 years older than you. I met him when randomly paired with him one Saturday, and he and I share such similar views on golf that it sparked a good friendship. Appreciate your post greatly.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

On 9/30/2020 at 8:07 AM, me05501 said:

I'm almost 52 so during my golfing life I've noticed the evolution from stuffy etiquette-obsessed golf toward a more casual attitude from a lot of people. These days we see more street-inspired golf clothes, untucked shirts, on-course music, ready golf on every tee and basically a less uptight approach to behavior during a round. A lot of the old traditions seem to be fading fast. 

 

The horse is pretty much out of the barn on this so I'm not sure it makes any sense to resist it. We older guys are relying on the next generations to join clubs and support courses, otherwise there won't be any clubs and courses left as our generations age out of competitive play. 

Personally I embrace these relaxations of the stuffier side of things. Some of the most fun I've ever had on the course has been during casual rounds with good company. I'm lucky to live fairly close to Sweeten's Cove where having fun on the course is embraced and celebrated. That seems to be the way forward. No sense in looking back. 

 

Obviously most of us draw the line at disruptive behavior, damaging the course, or holding up play. I don't see much of that kind of behavior and I wouldn't be happy if I did. But it seems like the most important points of etiquette are still intact and people are choosing to have fun within their group and mostly leaving other groups be (so far at least). 

 

What's your point of view? 

Much of everything is becoming less stuffy, and with it a spattering of “over casual”.

There isn’t much you can do other than be the “codgy old man” and DO resist it so it doesn’t actually devolve. Cheers!

[Dr. Block]

I would quibble with anyone who says they don't see damage to the courses.  I see it pretty consistently from the modern casual player. They don't fix ball marks, sand or repair divots, rake traps, keep the carts where they should go, or enter and exit traps properly. I don't think it's their fault necessarily because I don't think anyone has ever taught them that any of those things are important or how to do them.   I have even noticed that the high school team golfers who play my course rarely fix ball marks, and never replace divots - so it's bleeding past the most casual players a bit.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Dr. Block

[Jack Pearsall]

Music sans headphones on the course?

Inconsiderate, arrogant and assuming in a place where we go to play a game outside on lawns hitting a ball wearing funny shoes. 

It’s the guy lighting a cigar in a restaurant. The pee in the pool.

The senior who stands while you sit.

 

Conscious choices that say, “I am all that matters and I am an word not allowed.”

[PedronNiall]

11 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Then of course there's this... A golfer was kicked off a course for wearing black (low) socks with his black golf shoes. 

 

Nothing like a bunch of self important stuffed shirts forcing a major fashion faux pas 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf-black-socks-white-socks-controversy

 

I'm honestly torn on this one. Realistically I understand course rules are the only rules. In reality as you and many others pointed out, white socks regardless of the shoes? Just... no. For slacks you match your pants, for shorts you match/make sure you don't clash with your shoes. I'd just have to not play that course ever, my sensibilities wouldn't allow it.

[dubbelbogey]

12 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Then of course there's this... A golfer was kicked off a course for wearing black (low) socks with his black golf shoes. 

 

Nothing like a bunch of self important stuffed shirts forcing a major fashion faux pas 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf-black-socks-white-socks-controversy

 

I wear crew length black socks with white shoes. And gray shoes. And black shoes. And blue shoes.

 

Suits my personal taste just fine, thank you. 

 

I'm decidedly not a fan of no-show socks. Reminds me of all the frat boys wearing their penny loafers with no socks.

 

[OrangeGravy]

On 9/30/2020 at 9:46 AM, Soloman1 said:

Yes, you fix my ball marks and one other. That's the new normal.

 

I don't mind people untucking their shirt. After five months of 110-115F weather, I'll admit to doing it a few times. You know, the pandemic paunch thing has made me more understanding.

 

I've reached the stage where I prefer to fix ball marks instead of having others fix them the wrong way and kill the roots to leave an ugly brown stain. What the heck is wrong with people that they can't even fix a ball mark the right way? I play sometimes with a guy who was an Evan's scholar (that's a scholarship for caddies since no one knows what that is either) and he doesn't know how to fix a ball mark. Sigh . . .

 

Pardon me. I didn't sleep well last night. 😠

It might be the single biggest incorrect thing people do on a golf course. I see pros on the tube do it wrong all of the time. 

[BIG STU]

8 hours ago, dubbelbogey said:

I wear crew length black socks with white shoes. And gray shoes. And black shoes. And blue shoes.

 

Suits my personal taste just fine, thank you. 

 

I'm decidedly not a fan of no-show socks. Reminds me of all the frat boys wearing their penny loafers with no socks.

 

You will probably freak out at me--- Most of the time in the summer I do not wear socks at all--- But that is me being me

 

[dubbelbogey]

34 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

You will probably freak out at me--- Most of the time in the summer I do not wear socks at all--- But that is me being me

 

Actually, what you or other folks wear doesn't matter to me at all. I was only referring to preferences for what I personally wear. 

 

I've played with guys who literally do the CPG thing - socks and golf sandals. I say more power to them.

[blueonblack]

On 9/30/2020 at 10:55 AM, EDT501 said:

Even as a young guy, I’d much prefer to see golf trend towards walking only (without medical need for a cart), no cellphones, no music, and no drunkenness. I accept, though, that these preferences reflect the environment I was raised playing in and my personal relationship with the game as a competitive player. The vast majority of my golf these days is on municipal courses and I have come to accept that there is more than one way to enjoy the game.

 

As long as my playing partners maintain a decent pace of play, don’t tear up the course, don’t get completely drunk (which wouldn’t concern me other than the drunk driving and pace of play issues), and don’t have their music so loud if can be heard from several holes over, I don’t care what they do. 

I used to walk 99.9% of my 100 rounds per year. Now that I am older, I have to stop you short, there. People need to be able to participate when they age too. Especially since older golfers supported the game for so long. Its been a "core" golf demographic for a long time. I hope there is room for everyone. Especially the older golfers. They need to retire to something.

[EDT501]

2 hours ago, blueonblack said:

I used to walk 99.9% of my 100 rounds per year. Now that I am older, I have to stop you short, there. People need to be able to participate when they age too. Especially since older golfers supported the game for so long. Its been a "core" golf demographic for a long time. I hope there is room for everyone. Especially the older golfers. They need to retire to something.

I didn't mean to suggest that walking be mandatory for all, regardless of circumstances. My intention was to reflect that I think that walking should be the default, rather than the exception. If walking with a push cart is unreasonable for the individual, regardless of age, then they should, of course, be allowed to use a cart. Something along the lines of the rules they use at Bandon or at a lot of the courses in the UK where it is rare to see a "buggy" out on most of the courses. 

[freowho]

For the most part dress standard and general behaviour is something that sorts itself out without the need for rules. Cost of membership, general demographic of the club etc. If the dress standard has changed to something you don't like then it might be the case that you have become the odd one out and need to find somewhere else where you fit in better. I also think most clubs are big enough to cater for a variety of standards. A club near me has a group of tradies that play 9 holes every Friday afternoon. Drinking, music, gambling, groups of 10 etc. They are a great bunch who just enjoy golf a different way to most of the others and the club and the other members work around them. If they play in a club comp on another day they become normal golfers again without the music or the football tops.  

[Warrior42111]

On 10/16/2020 at 12:20 AM, blueonblack said:

Do you guys not like each other?

we're actually really good friends even with a 25+ year difference (32 vs late 50s). We talk and joke around waiting on the tee box or green. The music is just background if we're on different sides of the hole and waiting for the green to clear or something. Just to clarify we're usually in different carts due to COVID.

[Carl Spackler3]

On 10/7/2020 at 12:06 PM, cardoustie said:

Be a nice guy is all I ask, have some manners and be polite

 

Manage the booze and the music accordingly.  Know where to drive the cart

 

Have some awareness of your surroundings and not just yourself or your group.  It's the ME ME ME that are the problematic types IMO.  I don't want to be looked at like a party pooper when I tell you about flagrant nonsense that you SHOULD know

My current peeves, players that have played for 10 years plus and still don't know basic etiquette like:

- fixing a ball mark properly

- standing directly behind ... and then moving behind you when swinging

- standing in your line when you putt

- walking in your line of sight when putting or chipping

- not repairing divots with seed mix or the divot

 

How will new golfers learn this stuff if the experienced players are blind to it?

 

My club is private but very relaxed.  No jeans allowed in clubhouse in 2003 when I first joined etc

 

I think casual is good, it's progressive.  But it needs to be done correctly

 

 

one thing that strikes me is you comment about standing directly behind.  When I grew up in NY with crazy overcrowded courses and pace of play at a premium it was customary to have three guys stand behind your tee shot ( still of course) to ensure three extra sets of eyes on ball flight. I thought this to be helpful. When I moved to Carolina in my 50s I was asked by a gentleman of all the places to stand why would you be directly behind me?.. I found that interesting

[dubbelbogey]

1 hour ago, Carl Spackler3 said:

one thing that strikes me is you comment about standing directly behind.  When I grew up in NY with crazy overcrowded courses and pace of play at a premium it was customary to have three guys stand behind your tee shot ( still of course) to ensure three extra sets of eyes on ball flight. I thought this to be helpful. When I moved to Carolina in my 50s I was asked by a gentleman of all the places to stand why would you be directly behind me?.. I found that interesting

I agree with this. The more eyes on the ball, the better. It has never bothered me one bit that someone is directly behind me when I'm teeing off. 

 

That said, I understand this is not often the etiquette preference. Unless asked, I'll usually stand on a line 45 deg behind the golfer, so he can see I'm there, but I'm not right in his line. This is usually decent enough for tracking most tee shots. Not perfect, though, if the sun is in certain spots. If the sun is a problem, I'll sometimes ask a partner to specifically stand directly behind me to help me track a ball.