The Buck Club: King-Collins out!

[ctfuzz21]

While I don’t think this is good news, I don’t think it’s necessarily horrible news. Tons of first-time designers and hobbyists have made masterpieces, including Oakmont, Riviera and Sweetens, itself......thoughts?

[FaReal87]

I can only imagine that ZB was trying to fit too much into the design and KC wasn’t comfortable. Could make sense since it’s his first design and he wants to “perfect” it 

[mallrat]

Has ZB done any work with anyone? Does he have any idea what truly goes into a course? I would guess King Collins got tired of his stuff. There is soooo much that goes into designing a course from scratch. 

[jvincent]

I've lost track, how long has Zac been talking about TBC?

 

It's a great thought experiment / social media / merchandizing exercise but unless there is somebody in the background with big $$$ to back it I think that's all it ever becomes. Moving dirt and growing grass costs money.

 

Unless he's going to tweak the routing forever then start the construction. Until they actually start the process they won't know what they've gotten wrong in the paper design.

[mallrat]

4 hours ago, jvincent said:

I've lost track, how long has Zac been talking about TBC?

 

It's a great thought experiment / social media / merchandizing exercise but unless there is somebody in the background with big $$$ to back it I think that's all it ever becomes. Moving dirt and growing grass costs money.

 

Unless he's going to tweak the routing forever then start the construction. Until they actually start the process they won't know what they've gotten wrong in the paper design.

That’s part of what I don’t understand is there is no way Zac has the $ to front this. He obviously doesn’t have the shapers on his team, I seriously doubt he has a team with the irrigation knowledge in place. What about who is going to run/oversee the grow in? Does he have the investors to pony up to all those contractors?

[ctfuzz21]

3 hours ago, mallrat said:

That’s part of what I don’t understand is there is no way Zac has the $ to front this. He obviously doesn’t have the shapers on his team, I seriously doubt he has a team with the irrigation knowledge in place. What about who is going to run/oversee the grow in? Does he have the investors to pony up to all those contractors?

I don’t disagree with any of this, however, if the money was there to pay for KC and their team, then presumably it would be there if ZB went abt it separately? I have less concern abt the money and more so around not having supervision around the process. That said, I hope with this being a high-profile project and likely a number of investors, that they’re able to have some experienced and knowledgeable “consultants” involved in the process. 

[jjthomp2]

I played golf in SC back in August with some guys that were "equity" members of TBC (the course) and said they put down $15k... not sure that'll be money well spent. What do you think the time horizon is on this course even being playable? 2 years out? 

[Celebros]

I love Zac Blair, but with the momentum King-Collins have after Sweetens, I imagine they are choosing to spend their time/energy working on jobs with more solid backing, rather than waiting on Zac to find Shangri-La.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Celebros

[CDM]

This was always a pipe dream to me, not being rude as I would like to see it happen but unless big money comes in I don't think it will ever happen.  

 

History has proven time.... OR the third owner is the only people that make money on a course 😃 

[mallrat]

$15k will get you almost a satellite and irrigation for 1 hole 🙄

 

Edit... I should clarify, not installed but just all the components and pipe.

Edited November 2, 2020 by mallrat

[tw422]

Interesting responses on this subject.  I too have been following ZB via NLU and Sweetens connection.  I've seen ZB comment on this project on IG but as a newbie to him and the TBC concept (great merch idea) I was and still am confused as to what he's trying to do?  He bought a piece of land and seems to be a amateur/novice course "designer"?  I think someone accurately described this as a pipe dream.  Would love to see him do it but I think he needs to decide what he really wants to do - be a member of the PGA tour, run a merch business or become a golf course developer?  Love the his idealistic mentality but the reality is anyone can be a jack of all trades and a master of none....

[Hawkeye77]

Never heard of it.  

[ctfuzz21]

I get the frustration with the announcement. I was hoping for a Sweetens meets CB McDonald wonderland, too. However, couldnt ZB essentially do the layout taking everything he’s learned and studied on and bring in experts to help handle the engineering portion of the project? Again, I’m assuming he has money (backers and investors) and enough sense to know What he doesn’t know. And if that assumption is true, we could all still be in for a real treat and a great template for golf.

Edited November 3, 2020 by ctfuzz21

[grm24]

Some here know about the Golf Club Atlas website. Most don't. It's a site for golf course architecture fans. Likely a few WRX members are members there. Here is an update from Zac Blair himself from Monday 11/2.

 

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=68993.0

 

Scroll to the bottom of the page for his reply. For some here it will be TL;DR. Others might find his reply of interest.

[mallrat]

From an outsiders perspective, ZB is too close to the project and needs to step away. Yes he has a vision but so did Mike Keiser. Trust someone else to be able to execute it with minimal supervision/oversite. 
 

One example is we just renovated our course last winter. The architect came in with a vision that was approved by the owners but as the project moved on the owners and GM made several changes that were not always beneficial to the course. Now, some were but they were personal changes not part of a larger design. 

[smashdn]

You got two "architects" trying to make a name for themselves on the same project.

 

When/if the dust settles and the course is built, how much of the design is Zac Blair and how much is King-Collins?  I think in this scenario, when the portfolios of both parties is limited, it is important, even if neither would admit it.

 

I really like Sweetens.  Think very highly of it from having been there and seen it, albeit not played it at either visit due to it being closed for being too wet.  That said, is it not really the only thing that KC can hang their hats on at the moment?  Not trying to throw shade just pointing out that, to many anyway, if I were in a position to be partnering with a architectural firm on a course, they still have many unknowns left yet to prove, where other architects may be more a proven commodity.

 

In any event I hope it does get built and it is what ZB wants in the end.

I hope that KC go on and do great things as well.

 

There is retail golf and designing for retail golf is not a bad thing.  They can't and they don't have to all be Pine Valley's and Pebble Beach to serve the purpose.

[golfwb]

On 11/2/2020 at 11:57 PM, grm24 said:

Some here know about the Golf Club Atlas website. Most don't. It's a site for golf course architecture fans. Likely a few WRX members are members there. Here is an update from Zac Blair himself from Monday 11/2.

 

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=68993.0

 

Scroll to the bottom of the page for his reply. For some here it will be TL;DR. Others might find his reply of interest.

Man that site is a serious rabbit hole. Thanks for the link

[Pstreett]

3 hours ago, smashdn said:

You got two "architects" trying to make a name for themselves on the same project.

 

When/if the dust settles and the course is built, how much of the design is Zac Blair and how much is King-Collins?  I think in this scenario, when the portfolios of both parties is limited, it is important, even if neither would admit it.

 

I really like Sweetens.  Think very highly of it from having been there and seen it, albeit not played it at either visit due to it being closed for being too wet.  That said, is it not really the only thing that KC can hang their hats on at the moment?  Not trying to throw shade just pointing out that, to many anyway, if I were in a position to be partnering with a architectural firm on a course, they still have many unknowns left yet to prove, where other architects may be more a proven commodity.

 

In any event I hope it does get built and it is what ZB wants in the end.

I hope that KC go on and do great things as well.

 

There is retail golf and designing for retail golf is not a bad thing.  They can't and they don't have to all be Pine Valley's and Pebble Beach to serve the purpose.

I know KC has a few other courses they are actively working on and they are designing several others. They seem to have bigger and current projects to focus on while this is all ZB really has.

 

I am sure you are right that ZB wanted more say in the process than KC was likely comfortable with. If the course is built I'm sure it will be great. 

 

However, I think the loss of the contractor/building side of KC is potentially even greater than the design loss. They built Sweetens for cheap and have gotten a couple other jobs because they build the courses for a lot less than other firms. 

 

Plus, they already designed a routing/course for ZB. The challenge for him will be finding good shapers and builders to execute the design. 

 

I am definitely disappointed to see them split but hopefully ZB is able to see it through. 

 

 

[left hand low]

Zacs dad/family has designed/built/ran golf courses in Utah I believe. He has some people that would know about the process in some regard.

[ctfuzz21]

Loved ZB’s response. Think it was the perfect tone, while still showcasing his passion.

 

At the end of the day, which one of us wouldn’t want to be the one calling the shots on our passions. It seems more than possible that they had differing visions and rather than have a compromised mess, ZB & KC went their own ways. I actually am getting more and more excited to see what kind of creativity we see from ZB, as he’s demonstrated to have a very creative mind. 
 

Also, I like the merch and the branding!

[Dancin]

10 hours ago, golfwb said:

Man that site is a serious rabbit hole. Thanks for the link

If you've never been on golfclubatlas, free your weekend. Between the course reports with pictures and the tons of posts by well known architects, if you are a GCA geek, you're going to be very busy.

[dcmidnight]

Look I love the idea behind the whole thing - build a place you and your buddies could hang out and play golf - who doesn't love that idea.

 

But so far its a social experiment. King Collins were the perfect designers - now they arent? For years we've been reading/seeing sketches about how perfect the KC vision was and how much of a perfect fit they were for what Zac was trying to do and how the land in Utah was perfect for the KC design. Then suddenly out of the blue - nah? Just seems off. And Utah was the perfect spot because the course was going to be near BYU - now South Carolina is the perfect spot apparently.

 

Look ZB seems like a straight up good dude and you cant argue with the passion. And the one thing you definitely cant argue is that he KILLS it in the merch game. $100 shirts - sold out immediately. $80 headcovers - sold out immediately. But KC seems like they have actual earth-being-moved projects right now and they decided to get off this merry go round.

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by dcmidnight

[smashdn]

6 hours ago, dcmidnight said:

Look I love the idea behind the whole thing - build a place you and your buddies could hang out and play golf - who doesn't love that idea.

 

But so far its a social experiment. King Collins were the perfect designers - now they arent? For years we've been reading/seeing sketches about how perfect the KC vision was and how much of a perfect fit they were for what Zac was trying to do and how the land in Utah was perfect for the KC design. Then suddenly out of the blue - nah? Just seems off. And Utah was the perfect spot because the course was going to be near BYU - now South Carolina is the perfect spot apparently.

 

Look ZB seems like a straight up good dude and you cant argue with the passion. And the one thing you definitely cant argue is that he KILLS it in the merch game. $100 shirts - sold out immediately. $80 headcovers - sold out immediately. But KC seems like they have actual earth-being-moved projects right now and they decided to get off this merry go round.

 

 

 

I don't think it was necessarily a difference of design, but a difference of what design could be built and maintained, played, etc.  I certainly don't know, but the way I read it and interpreted it was the design was done and done in collaboration.  Now they need to build it and that is likely where the issues arose.  You flipped the page from an activity that was art to an activity that is now engineering.

 

What is on the surface only comes about through what is down below.

 

That is where I would really think twice about KC.  This isn't a slight on them in anyway, but they just don't appear to me to have the experience building and shaping that you would get from other shaping crews.

 

Maybe at this point they both decided that they had got out of the project what each was willing to do and pay for?  KC provided design support, ZB can now take that design to a civil, a shaper and get it built.

[hollabachgt]

11 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

 

I don't think it was necessarily a difference of design, but a difference of what design could be built and maintained, played, etc.  I certainly don't know, but the way I read it and interpreted it was the design was done and done in collaboration.  Now they need to build it and that is likely where the issues arose.  You flipped the page from an activity that was art to an activity that is now engineering.

 

What is on the surface only comes about through what is down below.

 

That is where I would really think twice about KC.  This isn't a slight on them in anyway, but they just don't appear to me to have the experience building and shaping that you would get from other shaping crews.

 

Maybe at this point they both decided that they had got out of the project what each was willing to do and pay for?  KC provided design support, ZB can now take that design to a civil, a shaper and get it built.

 

Between Tad and Rob, they have nearly 50 years in golf course design and constructions. It's not like they woke up one morning and decided to build Sweetens, they had been in the industry for quite some time prior. Compared to Zac's 0 year's of golf construction experience, why would you think twice about KC?

 

This to me smells like TBC's coffers are not as deep as they need to be and Zac's primary investors have changed to a bootstrap strategy going forward. 

[dcmidnight]

2 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

 

Between Tad and Rob, they have nearly 50 years in golf course design and constructions. It's not like they woke up one morning and decided to build Sweetens, they had been in the industry for quite some time prior. Compared to Zac's 0 year's of golf construction experience, why would you think twice about KC?

 

This to me smells like TBC's coffers are not as deep as they need to be and Zac's primary investors have changed to a bootstrap strategy going forward. 

 

This was almost exactly what I was going to write.

 

At some point in a project like this, you have to actually DO something. I've seen KC sketches and designs and hole routings floating around for years of possible TBC layouts. If the funding was there and ZB said OK here's a check, go ahead, build it - it would be built already. But not one shovel of anything has ever moved. Heck I've seen pictures of TBC holes and ZB selling watercolors of potential holes at the original site - but nothing happened.

 

BTW Sweetens was built out of completely flat, nothing ground - whatever you think of the place the construction pictures are incredible. To question KC ability to build something like this seems insane to me.

[FAbb]

I'd suspect finances played a greater role in this than creative differences.  King Collins has to get paid to do the design and oversee construction.  I wouldn't be surprised if they just had to cut their losses and not spend any more time on something that has no financial incentive.

[smashdn]

On 11/5/2020 at 1:08 PM, dcmidnight said:

BTW Sweetens was built out of completely flat, nothing ground - whatever you think of the place the construction pictures are incredible. To question KC ability to build something like this seems insane to me.

 

What are their other designs?  Is Sweeten's ever unplayable after a rain?

[Pstreett]

3 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

What are their other designs?  Is Sweeten's ever unplayable after a rain?

https://kingcollinsgolf.com/projects/

 

Their projects are listed there. Sweetens does flood, however it has less to do with rain and more to do with Tennessee Valley Authority flooding the area because the course in located in a flood plain.

 

However, the new ownership is supposedly coming up with a solution/alternative flood route to prevent this. 

[hollabachgt]

3 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

What are their other designs?  Is Sweeten's ever unplayable after a rain?

Tad was a shaper for Nicklaus, Norman, and Player. Rob was a design associate for Player.

 

As a tandem they've done work at Signal Mountain, Sea Palms,  build another 9 hole course in New York, and are currently constructing Landmand Golf Club in Nebraska.

 

[mallrat]

FWIW, a lot of design companies contract out the actual shaping. They will normally have 1 or 2 heads on site that will do a lot of the final touches, I.e., bunkers but the contractors will do the heavy lifting. 
 

I know Sheep Ranch used 3 separate shaping companies, 1 just did irrigation, 1 did the rough shaping of fairways and then a well known guy around here helped with bunkers and greens.