Power in the swing.... Arms? Legs? Core?

[PixlPutterman]

I was always taught a relaxed upper body led by strong core rotation founded in vertical ground forces through the legs....

 

Is that a correct way to think about sequencing?

[Zitlow]

Pretty much. Energy flows from the ground up through the arms and hands which are conduits, down the shaft through the club head into the ball. 

 

The hard part is learning how to effectively create the energy

and how to apply it to the ball.

 

Energy should flow like water coming out of a hose. Feeling the hit in your shoulders, elbows wrists or hips would be and example of kinking the hose blocking energy from getting out to the ball. If you feel off balance you're kinking the hose by expending energy that isn't getting to the ball to maintain your balance. There are other ways to kink the hose as well. 

 

 

 

[Milfordlefty]

My two cents. You have to have some of all in a swing. I'm working on RSS (Right Side Swing) method since start of off season in the fall. One of the claims is it is a more arm swing method. I am finding I still need to rotate (core) and use legs in back swing and though swing (ground forces) for a successful swing. If I remember to keep my trail elbow in the correct spot, I am seeing more consistency in distance and direction.

[golfsticks]

It's everything, it's all 3 and more.  It's an all or nothing phenomena.

[juststeve]

Arm speed leads to club speed.  How you get your arms to move fast differs from method to method. 

 

Steve

[Nels55]

Interesting question.  This has been studied a bit and my previous instructor based his teaching on such studies.  His claim was that the glutes in particular the trail glute provided most of the energy in a typical pro quality swing.  He did mention data from one study of pro quality swings done at Stanford to back this claim up.  Ams tend to not use their bodies so well hence he makes a living teaching ams to swing like pros.  Except it did not seem to work in my case which is obviously a problem with the student as I did see some amazing and effortless swings that other students had learned.

 

My observation is that the stronger a golfer is the more options there are for producing good clubhead speed.  This fact is easily demonstrated by swinging a very light weight club, if the 'club' is light enough for instance a shaft with no head on it then the maximum speed can be obtained with one arm and a very short backswing.  If the 'club' is a sledge hammer then it takes both hands and more use of the body to get any speed.  If a golfer is really strong the first approach with an arm swing whipping the club through might produce reasonable speed while a golfer who is not so strong might need to activate the glutes in a well sequenced swing in order to get decent speed. 

 

Wright Balance / Larry Rinker have some interesting ideas on body type and swing mechanics that may apply here. 

[GLF4EVR]

My answer would be....D....all of the above.  All 3 are at work to generate clubhead speed.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, GLF4EVR said:

My answer would be....D....all of the above.  All 3 are at work to generate clubhead speed.

Correct 

[PJ1120]

I've been tinkering lately with forcefully rotating my chest through the shot after initiating downswing with my hips. Saw a vide here recently with J. B. Holmes advocating this.

[naval2006]

Strong legs, stable core and superfast arms will get you going really long.  It's the usual you have to find your combo thing.

[PixlPutterman]

38 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Correct 

 

I saw your post on IG (I think it was)

 

The Passive Arms one.... Thats what made me question what I though of sequence.

 

Can you expand more? I thought you wanted some what passive arms? Or maybe I think "not over active" and passive are the same thing?

[MonteScheinblum]

6 hours ago, PixlPutterman said:

 

I saw your post on IG (I think it was)

 

The Passive Arms one.... Thats what made me question what I though of sequence.

 

Can you expand more? I thought you wanted some what passive arms? Or maybe I think "not over active" and passive are the same thing?

I made a video with Mike Granato (AMG) who has done a ton more 3D than me and we agreed we have never once seen over active arms in the early downswing.  He and Shaun have made many videos discussing this.  The two things that are misdiagnosed as over active arms is early shoulder turn and arms trailing so badly the body has to stop so the arms can catch up.  They just made a video showing how most ams accelerate the hands/arms way too late and lose club speed.  Excess arm tension is a bad thing, as it will slow them down, but are your arms passive when throwing a frisbee left handed or a left handed cross court back hand in tennis?  This movements are a lot like a right handed golf swing.  
 

You asked a great question and I really appreciate the way you created the discussion.  It is growing tiresome having to listen to people that have no basis, other than what they have heard and believe, to tell me I don’t know what I’m saying.

[MonteScheinblum]

6 hours ago, PJ1120 said:

I've been tinkering lately with forcefully rotating my chest through the shot after initiating downswing with my hips. Saw a vide here recently with J. B. Holmes advocating this.

You need to get your pressure left earlier (or not move laterally so much in the backswing) or your arms will trail and adding chest rotation will send you into early right tilt and make it worse.

[PixlPutterman]

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I made a video with Mike Granato (AMG) who has done a ton more 3D than me and we agreed we have never once seen over active arms in the early downswing.  He and Shaun have made many videos discussing this.  The two things that are misdiagnosed as over active arms is early shoulder turn and arms trailing so badly the body has to stop so the arms can catch up.  They just made a video showing how most ams accelerate the hands/arms way too late and lose club speed.  Excess arm tension is a bad thing, as it will slow them down, but are your arms passive when throwing a frisbee left handed or a left handed cross court back hand in tennis?  This movements are a lot like a right handed golf swing.  
 

You asked a great question and I really appreciate the way you created the discussion.  It is growing tiresome having to listen to people that have no basis, other than what they have heard and believe, to tell me I don’t know what I’m saying.

Man than just blows my mind. I need to go watch those videos.

 

All the 20 caps I see just look like they are throwing their hands at the ball, standing at impact, chicken wing follow through....

 

"Looks" like over active arms and zero body rotation to me.

 

So what's really happening is they "want" to rotate but have a lazy upper body so the lower body stops so the arms can catch up and then they drag the lower body through?

 

Just trying to grasp it lol

[Nels55]

Well, I may be a bit off topic here but comparing pros and ams I have noticed that every pro I can remember looking at shifts the hips towards the target while the club is still going back in the backswing.  The lead hip ends up over the lead foot as demonstrated by Adam Scott here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL9yTeI2kLg

 

The fall I think folks call it.  I tried to learn this move in the past without much success.  During my 'normal swing' I would get to the lead foot eventually but never as early as the pros do which I believe indicates poor sequencing.  When I tried to do the fall I would not be able to hit the ball at all.  Anyway I have been doing a drill recently where I try to keep my back to the target as long as possible starting the through swing.  While doing this drill I noticed that I could feel my hips sliding over onto my lead foot earlier a little bit more like a pro swing.  So I think that this drill ties in with the idea of getting the arms moving faster earlier?  I also seem to be hitting the ball a bit farther which is a good thing...

[MonteScheinblum]

It’s ironic you used AMG to support your point as they are big on moving arms and hands earlier and people rotate too early.  As a matter of fact, Mike and I made a video last year where we discuss this exact subject and he even said he has great success having people start the arms first on purpose because it’s not possible, in order to improve sequencing because people are so over taught body first...and the body will react accordingly if the arms feel they start first.  In addition,  you have it backwards.  It’s more body oriented out there and there is plenty of good “how to” on how to move the hips available.

Edited December 1, 2020 by MonteScheinblum

[acekun]

 

54 minutes ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

Years ago Cochran et al calculated the downswing takes 3 to 4 horsepower, that the arms can produce at most 1 1/4, that the legs can produce around 2 1/2, and concluded that the legs and hips contribute the main source of power.  They likened the legs and hips to the engine, the arms and hands to the transmission.

 

Not likely that either biology or physics has changed much since.

 

Yet about 90% of the “instruction” I see is about the arms and hands.  The folks at AMG are the only people I have seen whom show how to move the hips properly, even though it should be obvious to the least observant that without proper hip motion you just cannot swing, or bat, or skip a rock, or do karate, or swim, or walk, or even sit in a chair, properly.

 

As far as I am concerned the idea that you can learn how to move your hands and your body will somehow follow, based on the fact that some good golfers say that’s the way it works, don’t understand that,  for those good golfers, skill with the proper body movements has likely moved from prefrontal cortex to the cerebellum (i.e., become automaticized).  Sort of like when you're driving a car, if the engine is running, you don’t pay attention to the fact it’s running.  

 

A bad golfer has an engine that won’t run, but gets taught about how to shift (if he is lucky) and about the navigation system (“just visualize that shot”).

 

Not to mention the apparent fact that proper body motion will actually induce proper arm and hand and club motion, if allowed to.  Which explains the other half of good golfers, who also have their body motion mostly on auto pilot, and say just set up well and get started right, don’t consciously do anything with the hands, and the swing will turn out good.  They say this because the proper body motions after the takeaway have been automaticized, and those body movements will do a lot to bring about good arm, hand, and club motion.

 

It may even be possible that the active arms discussed above will result automatically from body motion.

You need to watch more AMG videos. IMO, one of their best videos show the biggest difference in swing speeds between pros and ams is due to pros reaching peak arm/hand speed much sooner than amateurs. This speed has nothing to do with hip movement -- the hips have barely moved at this point. 

[phizzy30]

I'm by no means a golf instructor, but I do have clients that are very talented amateur/pro athletes.  I always work on building a solid base with them which includes strong legs and core.  Power in the golf swing starts from the ground up.  Arm speed ultimately leads to a faster swing speed, but proper sequencing which starts with the lower body is numero uno in my book.  I have my baseball and golf guys do a lot of jump squats but we go pretty light on those.  It almost mimics the Tiger squat move.  Tiger calls it snapping his left leg straight and Rory calls it pushing off the ground during the down swing which looks like he's doing a partial squat almost.  This move allows the arms to drop into the slot with a bit more speed IMO.  I give credit to Tiger as he was the first one to openly use and emphasize his secret power move.  Gankus took it a step further and made it popular. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by phizzy30

[naval2006]

I often play with this guy who has been scratch or near scratch for several years now.  He's no taller than Gary Player and as skinny as Gary in his prime, too.  I've never seen someone so short and thin hitting sooooo long.  The guy is planted like a tree trunk on the floor and he seems to position his hips at the beginning of the downsing with the only purpose of slashing through like  lightning with arms and hands to a high balanced finish.  The guy is so fast that sometimes when you know your hips have fired a tad to fast and you'll hit it clean he still manages to strike it pure.   And what is more impressive is how stable he's throughout at such a high speed.    

[glk]

Nesbit/Serrano in 2005 researched work and power via a model and a handful of golfers - focused on joints in the downswing.

Short form is that the primary sources of work/power come from the lumbar/thoracic r region and hips - approx 71% - secondary are the shoulder/arms at 26% - and last are the legs at 3% (the data is in table 2 in the paper).    Of note is the trail elbow supplies the greatest amount of work of the arms/shoulders - approx 10%.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3899668/

 

From what I've seen on Scott Hamilton, Dana Dahlquist, and now this on iteach's instagram (see link below) , those 300 yard 4 handicappers better working on their short game and putting cause the women are coming for them, lol.

 

160 yard 8i and 11 years old - damn what a really, really good move and uses the ground really well.

 https://www.instagram.com/p/CIOsuezFIPa/

Edited December 1, 2020 by glk

[Soloman1]

I've seen other studies showing the following percentages of muscle group contribution to energy transfer:

 

Driver

 

                       Men     |    Women

Legs               21%            26%

Core               10%            10%

Shoulder       12%            12%

Wrist              56%            50%

 

 

[Nard_S]

 

 

There's video on YT where guy shows max ground pressure of left foot happens when hands are being thrown. So yeah it's using legs and core to fire hands early & hard. This idea of attaining max hand speed near bouts P6 blind sided my concept of the swing for the better.

[mgoblue83]

Seems like people are giving too much credit to legs and core for the average golfer. They make a difference when someone already has a fast arm swing but they won't do much for someone who doesn't know how to whip through with their arms. Yes, everything is connect and works together to maximize distance but arm speed is the most important component.

 

Chances are someone with fast arms can achieve a high percentage of their max distance with every club swinging with their feet together (80%+). I think the percentage is higher with wedges and lower with driver but the majority of their speed still comes from their arms. Personally my normal PW is 140ish (48 degree) and I can comfortably hit it 130 with my feet together. My driver carries 280ish and I carry it well over 200 with my feet together.

 

Another example is throwing a baseball or football. Someone with a strong arm (fast arm) can still throw incredibly hard/far from their knees or with their feet together.

 

This is a major reason why the SuperSpeed training protocols (and other similar programs) incorporate swings from your knees.

[Wesquire]

I lose less than 10% club speed (with a 7i) when swinging with my lead leg crossed over my trail leg. This essentially eliminates almost all lower body and hip contributions. Same is true when I swing from a seated position. I just don't see how it would be possible for the arms and the muscles like the pecs and lats to not be the bulk of the power production.

[MonteScheinblum]

Well said

[glk]

286 no arms.    Granted he got a hold of this one and a bit elevated but he typically hits in the 250+ range.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B2fIKrFFqXF/

 

And chairs, feet together, on the knees does not really limit much of the turn especially from the torso and even from the hips/knees - I really can't make much of a swing if I really hold my body still and just use my arms and shoulder -can get the arms to just short of parallel and have to bring across my body and then the downswing  without further using the body to turn toward the target really makes this limited.

Edited December 2, 2020 by glk

[russc1597187869]

Soloman1

The contribution#s from the wrists  obviously stands out.

Do any of those studies discuss the specific wrist movements that contribute to the energy transfer?

Thanks

[Wesquire]

9 minutes ago, glk said:

286 no arms.    Granted he got a hold of this one and a bit elevated but he typically hits in the 250+ range.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B2fIKrFFqXF/

 

And chairs, feet together, on the knees does not really limit much of the turn especially from the torso and even from the hips/knees - I really can't make much of a swing if I really hold my body still and just use my arms and shoulder -can get the arms to just short of parallel and have to bring across my body and then the downswing  without further using the body to turn toward the target really makes this limited.

 

You are right that it doesn't limit torso rotation as much, but swinging with your lead leg crossed over your trail leg it definitely seems like the only thing the lower body and hips can be contributing is a tiny bit of range of motion in the backswing and the hips don't even get back to square (for me at least).

No legs: https://www.instagram.com/p/BWtVi14j7TA/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

 

I'm not sure how to distinguish between core/torso rotation and arm contribution. 

[Zitlow]

The force/energy comes from all the parts working together synergistically. 

 

Synergy = the interaction of elements that when combined produce a total effect that is greater than the sum of the individual elements, contributions, etc.; synergism.

[hack2489]

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯