Was a flat-faced Driver ever made?

[Barfolomew]

I really want to try a flat-faced Driver.  Was a modern 460 sized one ever made? I never heard of one... did anyone make a prototype for fun? 

 

I know the curved face offers a trampoline effect for distance but I think it reeks havoc on accuracy as all know plenty about, even for the best!

 

But I'm no scientist i dont know the yardage lost by a flat face but it might be worth the trade off if you could find the fairway a lot more..... some even play a 3 wood cause they cant control a driver. 

 

I personally love driver and hit hard but think I could get a flat faced one out far enough to play lol but obviously got nothin to base that on...  I still got 2 spots left in my bag maybe I could play 2 drivers like Phil one for bombs and one for accuracy.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Barfolomew

[Old Tom Morris]

The bulge and roll on driver clubfaces is a design feature that counters gear effect.  It actually helps the ball maintain the intended flight on a slightly mishit shot.

[ChipNRun]

Someone made a flat-faced driver when metal woods were bumping out persimmon. Can't remember what company it was.

 

Also, I stumbled across this 1999 patent application for a Flat-Faced Driver.

[GodSpeed]

I would think face curvature also helps with clubhead speed and face spring (which in turn helps ball speed)?

[nsxguy]

23 minutes ago, GodSpeed said:

I would think face curvature also helps with clubhead speed and face spring (which in turn helps ball speed)?

 

Personally I would think a convex face would resist deforming and springing forward more than a flat face would but

 

Whether it does or not is irrelevant since there are limits on how fast the ball can come off the face - and everybody's reached it for quite a while now,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by nsxguy

[GodSpeed]

I think with how thin the face metal is, you are going to get some flex no matter the face shape. With a convex face, the inward flex isn't pulling the face metal - it is compressing it towards the edges of the face. A flat face flex would pull the metal into the driver head as it flexes, stretching it in a sense, and would be more prone to metal fatigue/cracks? I'm only assuming here lol 

Edited January 22, 2021 by GodSpeed

[GodSpeed]

Flat Vs. Curved Golf Driver Face (chron.com)

 

I was way off lol

[Krt22]

2 hours ago, Old Tom Morris said:

The bulge and roll on driver clubfaces is a design feature that counters gear effect.  It actually helps the ball maintain the intended flight on a slightly mishit shot.

Bingo. TMs twist face further exaggerates it by adding in some vertical element 

[03trdblack]

Tom Wishon drivers have bulge but almost no roll. 

 

"Wishon Golf demonstrated the technical knowledge and the courage to deviate from more than 100 years of tradition in woodhead face design to depart from the old dimensions of vertical roll radius and replace that with a unique vertical face design that ensures more consistent loft up and down the face while still generating the proper vertical gear effect necessary to achieve a preferable ball flight shape without excessive spin.

 

As driver heads grew from 200cc to 460cc between 1990 and 2005, driver face heights increased from an average of 1.5″ (39mm) to an average of 2.2″ (55mm) up to as much as 2.4″ (60mm). During this increase in head volume and face height the traditional vertical roll radius of 10” or 12” continued.  When face height increases by some 40%, using the same vertical face radius causes the loft of the driver to be as much as 3 degrees lower on the bottom of the face and 3 degrees higher on the top of the face.

 

To achieve a consistent launch angle with such taller face drivers using the same vertical roll radius that was first established for far smaller face heights, golfers have to develop the skill to hit the ball in an area the size of the head of a thumbtack.  Wishon Golf’s original Graduated Roll Technology (GRT) vertical face design incorporated a 0 roll vertically flat face over the bottom 2/3’s of the face height while transitioning to a 14” vertical radius for the upper third of the face.  The result was a driver retained its designed loft over the bottom 2/3’s of the face while only experiencing a +1 to +1.5 degree increase in loft on the top third of the face.  This meant impacts anywhere on the lower 2/3’s of the face took off with virtually the same launch angle and spin while shots hit higher off the face only increased slightly in launch angle while retaining the vertical gear effect necessary to achieve a penetrating shot shape without excessive spin.

 

Later Wishon modified the original GRT specs to be a consistent 20” vertical roll radius because the original flat lower and radiused upper face design proved too difficult to maintain the level of consistency required.  But the 20” vertical radius still achieves the same goal of preventing the loft from being too low on the bottom and too high on the top half of the face to offer more consistent launch and spin.  The 20” vertical radius continues to be used on every Wishon Golf brand driver. iv widget"

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by 03trdblack

[NRJyzr]

23 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Bingo. TMs twist face further exaggerates it by adding in some vertical element 

 

It's not just a vertical element, the face also opens more at the toe and closes more at the heel, to help create better directional results on heel/toe mishits.

 

It seems the bulge applied to modern metal driver clubfaces didn't quite mesh with the CG locations as well as what we saw with persimmon drivers.  Toe draws were farther left (with apologies to my lefty brothers/sisters), and heel fades finished farther right than commonly seen with persimmon.  Twist face is the TM version of an attempt to counter that.

 

I've only experienced it personally with my Original One, haven't hit the M3 and forward drivers.  It seems to certainly work with the OO, such as I've seen on my unintentional experiments with toe hits.  😉

 

[Pepperturbo]

Yep, long time back flat face drivers were made, as were drivers without face lines.  Don't recall the company names, however.  Whether you can benefit from it, probably not, but it depends on your swing mechanics, ball striking skills and athleticism. 

[Barfolomew]

The Wishon drivers sound real interesting..... I agree about the thumbtack size strike zone is too small for consistency.... prob why I started this thread!

 

If a perfectly flat driver head wont work then the least amount of curvature would be what I would want in a driver's face.... cause driving is tough enough already

Edited January 26, 2021 by Barfolomew

[pinhigh27]

35 minutes ago, Barfolomew said:

The Wishon drivers sound real interesting..... I agree about the thumbtack size strike zone is too small for consistency.... prob why I started this thread!

 

If a perfectly flat driver head wont work then the least amount of curvature would be what I would want in a driver's face.... cause driving is tough enough already

But I’m not sure why you’re convinced this aspect hurts you. While there are people that claim twist face hurts them, I’m not sure it’s been proven and bulge and roll help golfers not hurt them. You could theoretically take it too far and we could debate that but your primary conclusion about the face being curved for distance while harming accuracy is fundamentally wrong 

[Barfolomew]

36 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

But I’m not sure why you’re convinced this aspect hurts you. While there are people that claim twist face hurts them, I’m not sure it’s been proven and bulge and roll help golfers not hurt them. You could theoretically take it too far and we could debate that but your primary conclusion about the face being curved for distance while harming accuracy is fundamentally wrong 

Maybe but I wanna try it!  What if it's way more accurate... i hit hard enough to give up some distance for accuracy

[Nels55]

If the center of gravity is moved close enough to the face then the need for bulge to compensate for gear effect becomes negligible.  I believe that Gerry Hogan built such a driver at some point. 

 

LOL I built a persimmon driver with a flat face many years ago as an experiment.  It was basically useless as any hit that was towards the toe hooked massively and anything off the heel sliced off the planet.   

[rgk5]

On 1/23/2021 at 3:31 PM, Pepperturbo said:

Yep, long time back flat face drivers were made, as were drivers without face lines.  Don't recall the company names, however.  Whether you can benefit from it, probably not, but it depends on your swing mechanics, ball striking skills and athleticism. 

Cubic Balance made some like that.

[pinhigh27]

1 hour ago, Barfolomew said:

Maybe but I wanna try it!  What if it's way more accurate... i hit hard enough to give up some distance for accuracy

 

Again idk why you think bulge and roll has anything to do with the elasticity of the face. It doesn't make the club any "hotter" or better for dsitance.

 

The whole point is it helps you on your mishits. See the above examples of how a toed shot would hook into oblivion or a heeled shot will slice into oblivion. That is what will happen. 

[Pepperturbo]

1 hour ago, rgk5 said:

Cubic Balance made some like that.

Yep, and if I recall - Jim Dent played that driver.

[Bad9]

12 hours ago, Barfolomew said:

Maybe but I wanna try it!  What if it's way more accurate... i hit hard enough to give up some distance for accuracy

In all honesty if it was way more accurate someone would have been making it in the last 50yrs

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

 

Again idk why you think bulge and roll has anything to do with the elasticity of the face. It doesn't make the club any "hotter" or better for dsitance.

 

The whole point is it helps you on your mishits. See the above examples of how a toed shot would hook into oblivion or a heeled shot will slice into oblivion. That is what will happen. 

 

Yes the main point is to counter gear effect and that is what dictates the actual radius used in the design.   And assuming a half way decent swing with a bit of a off-center hit, the bulge and roll will always help, not hurt.   It's only if the player needs very certain compensations for other problems with delivery that the buldge and roll may hurt.  e.g.  there was a time where my biggest miss was an open faced, toe side miss.   In that case, more gear effect was helping to compensate for the open face aspect of the miss.   That was the time when the SLDR was my favorite driver.  Low MOI meant more gear effect and more help.

 

But that doesn't mean there can't also be some benefits as far as the elastic behavior of the face is concerned.   Think of the use of arches in buildings and bridges.  The curvature increases the ability to withstand the load (or forces of impact) without failure since it transfers some of the shear stresses into a compression stress (which most metals are better able to withstand).   So that in turn (in theory at least) can allow for thinner face designs and a higher COR over more area of the face.    Now whether there is potential for a measurable increase over a flat faced driver I couldn't say.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Stuart_G

[morrisminor]

13 hours ago, Barfolomew said:

What if it's way more accurate...

 

While you're at it try to get hold of some wedges and short irons with significant bulge and roll. I mean they might be way more accurate too.

 

At the end of the 19th century club makers started to move from concave faced long nose drivers and spoons to the woods that are a similar shape to those made today.  During the transition some woods were made with flat faces and some were made with bulge and roll, the latter being found to be the more accurate of the styles. For this reason they were called bulgers because the face bulged outwards.

 

If you are looking for manufacturers of straight faced woods from the transitional period Forgans of St Andrews or R. Simpson of Carnoustie would be a good place to start.  Although you may want to replace the hickory shaft with something more modern.  I would probably go with a Hzrdus smoke black.

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Yes the main point is to counter gear effect and that is what dictates the actual radius used in the design.   And assuming a half way decent swing with a bit of a off-center hit, the bulge and roll will always help, not hurt.   It's only if the player needs very certain compensations for other problems with delivery that the buldge and roll may hurt.  e.g.  there was a time where my biggest miss was an open faced, toe side miss.   In that case, more gear effect was helping to compensate for the open face aspect of the miss.   That was the time when the SLDR was my favorite driver.  Low MOI meant more gear effect and more help.

 

But that doesn't mean there can't also be some benefits as far as the elastic behavior of the face is concerned.   Think of the use of arches in buildings and bridges.  The curvature increases the ability to withstand the load (or forces of impact) without failure since it transfers some of the shear stresses into a compression stress (which most metals are better able to withstand).   So that in turn (in theory at least) can allow for thinner face designs and a higher COR over more area of the face.    Now whether there is potential for a measurable increase over a flat faced driver I couldn't say.

I find myself disagreeing with your assessment of the SLDR driver and I will try to explain why.

My understanding:

Gear effect is directly related to the position of the center of gravity.  The club head rotates around the center of gravity on an off center hit so the farther back the COG the faster the face rotates on an off center hit producing more gear effect.  The SLDR had the COG forward towards the face which should mean less gear effect not more.  Also hi MOI should slow the rotation should it not?  The more the weight is centered the faster the rotation.  The old figure skater pulling her arms in example.

 

I have no problem being wrong on this one and if I am I would like to understand why!

 

 

[NRJyzr]

1 minute ago, Nels55 said:

I find myself disagreeing with your assessment of the SLDR driver and I will try to explain why.

My understanding:

Gear effect is directly related to the position of the center of gravity.  The club head rotates around the center of gravity on an off center hit so the farther back the COG the faster the face rotates on an off center hit producing more gear effect.  The SLDR had the COG forward towards the face which should mean less gear effect not more.  Also hi MOI should slow the rotation should it not?  The more the weight is centered the faster the rotation.  The old figure skater pulling her arms in example.

 

I have no problem being wrong on this one and if I am I would like to understand why!

 

 

 

The farther back CG creates a higher MOI of the clubhead, reducing twisting on the off center hit.  Forward CG will create a lower MOI, which allows more twisting.

 

Hence, the greater distance loss from misses.  

[Stuart_G]

27 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I find myself disagreeing with your assessment of the SLDR driver and I will try to explain why.

My understanding:

Gear effect is directly related to the position of the center of gravity.  The club head rotates around the center of gravity on an off center hit so the farther back the COG the faster the face rotates on an off center hit producing more gear effect.  The SLDR had the COG forward towards the face which should mean less gear effect not more.  Also hi MOI should slow the rotation should it not?  The more the weight is centered the faster the rotation.  The old figure skater pulling her arms in example.

 

I have no problem being wrong on this one and if I am I would like to understand why!

 

 

 

Rate of rotation (angular acceleration) is determined by the MOI of the head, not the forward and back nature of the c.g. location.

But the c.g. location is what determines the radius for the gear in the gear effect

 

So in theory a more forward c.g. would technically contribute to less gear effect because of the smaller gear radius (If the MOI was the same).  That's why irons have little to no gear effect.  But the reality is that the the difference in that c.g. location among the different drivers is very small compared to the distance to the face (~4mm).  So the larger differences in the MOI among different drivers becomes the much more dominant factor in how much gear effect will be generated.

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Nels55]

7 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Rate of rotation (angular acceleration) is determined by the MOI of the head, not the c.g. location.

But the c.g. location is what determines the radius for the gear in the gear effect.

 

So while in theory a more forward c.g. would technically contribute to less gear effect because of the smaller gear radius (If the MOI was the same) the reality is that the the difference in that c.g. location among the different drivers is very small (~4mm) and the much larger differences in the MOI becomes a significantly more dominant factor in how much gear effect will be generated.

 

I think we agree on this:

The radius is a direct factor in determining the amount of gear effect.  The farther back the COG the faster the face rotates on an off center hit producing more spin which is why irons do not have a need for face bulge while woods do.

 

Here is where I think that we may disagree:

Higher MOI means more resistance to twisting which means less gear effect not more.

 

 

[Barfolomew]

Then why did Tom Wishon lessen the amount of roll on his driver faces......... looking for optimum amount.

 

Guess thing is I've played every racket or bat type sport at a decent level too lol: Tennis, ping pong, squash, badminton, racquetball, field hockey, baseball, softball, cricket (might have slight curve been a while since school) etc.... point is they have flat faces and its easy to control where you hit the ball then there's this sport golf where everyone sprays all the time with driver including pros and just thought I would love to see what a flat-faced driver would do in real life not hypothetically... but a girl can only dream lol

[TKS]

Tom's face designs reduce the gear effect on the low / high strikes.

OEMs will follow him any fiscal quarter now.

My unscientific observations are the trajectory is more consistent as well.

[Nels55]

Here is a nice explanation of gear effect by Dave Tutelman for anyone interested:

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/gearEffect.php

[grm24]

On 1/26/2021 at 7:09 PM, rgk5 said:

Cubic Balance made some like that.

Scott Simpson won on the PGA Tour with the Cubic Balance grooveless driver. One time component company SMT had multiple drives without grooves.

[Stuart_G]

16 hours ago, Nels55 said:

I think we agree on this:

The radius is a direct factor in determining the amount of gear effect.  The farther back the COG the faster the face rotates on an off center hit producing more spin which is why irons do not have a need for face bulge while woods do.

 

There is a subtle difference.   The further back the c.g. the less the gear effect and it's not because the rate of rotation changes.  Again, c.g. location does factor into the amount of gear effect but it does not effect the rate of rotation of the head.

 

 

16 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Here is where I think that we may disagree:

Higher MOI means more resistance to twisting which means less gear effect not more.

 

 

 

I never said higher MOI meant more gear effect.   I only said: "the MOI becomes a significantly more dominant factor in how much gear effect will be generated. "

 

Basically in the case of comparing gear effect for different drivers that only means,  forget the c.g. location, you only need to pay attention to MOI.