Difference between a Juniors low score and their high score.

[tiger1873]

Was wondering what everyone thinks of the range of scores that you will see a junior's score who plays a lot tournaments.

 

I think in some cases a kid get a really low round from shear luck.  We played with one kid once where the wind help her hook and she had the round of her life.   But others I sort of wonder because when they score high 80's then suddenly put a round up in the 60's and have a playoff and it's obvious they can't hit a fairway or green.

 

I personally feel most kids will score in a certain range.  Very rare to see a major change in score unless they're hurt or something is really wrong with the course or they're traveling to another state.

Edited October 8, 2021 by tiger1873

[heavy_hitter]

I look at the two day totals.  Anything below 150 and the kid can compete.  Girl's the number is 155.

[kekoa]

Why do you always think a kid got lucky if he/she shoots a low score?  Sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

To answer your question and I'm speaking about my son only.  His scores in USkids tournaments can range anywhere from -5 to 5 over.  That is a huge differential, but it happens.  It kind of depends on who shows up that day and how many putts fall.  Over 5 tournaments so far, his average is 71. If we are talking about longer courses in the 5,700 yard range his scores range from -2 to maybe 6-7 over.  

[goaliedad30]

Wild swings happen to every player, including Tour level players. Virtually every PGA TOUR/LPGA pro is capable, on any given day of shooting 60. They are also capable of shooting 80. Seems to me Will Zalatoris last week had consecutive rounds that went 71-61-72 or something like that ....

[tiger1873]

1 hour ago, kekoa said:

Why do you always think a kid got lucky if he/she shoots a low score?  Sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

To answer your question and I'm speaking about my son only.  His scores in USkids tournaments can range anywhere from -5 to 5 over.  That is a huge differential, but it happens.  It kind of depends on who shows up that day and how many putts fall.  Over 5 tournaments so far, his average is 71. If we are talking about longer courses in the 5,700 yard range his scores range from -2 to maybe 6-7 over.  

 

 

 

What your described with you son is what I would expect -5 to 5 over as normal.  If he was usually 90 and then shot - 5 under that would not be normal.

 

I am talking about 20-25 point swings in tournament scores.  I am also not talking about younger kids either but kids who have played a lot tournaments at certain level players tend to be more consistent. 

 

Most junior scores tend to be pretty predictable based on the last 4 or 5 tournaments. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by tiger1873

[BloctonGolf11]

1 hour ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

 

What your described with you son is what I would expect -5 to 5 over as normal.  If he was usually 90 and then shot - 5 under that would not be normal.

 

I am talking about 20-25 point swings in tournament scores.  I am also not talking about younger kids either but kids who have played a lot tournaments at certain level players tend to be more consistent. 

 

Most junior scores tend to be pretty predictable based on the last 4 or 5 tournaments. 

Why are you still so concerned with what OTHERS are doing? All the time it is they only score this because of this with you and all of these theories. Kids have great days and poor days in all phases of life.  

[tiger1873]

5 hours ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

Why are you still so concerned with what OTHERS are doing? All the time it is they only score this because of this with you and all of these theories. Kids have great days and poor days in all phases of life.  

I always look at scores of competitors. It’s how i know if the tournament is worth playing or not.

 

kids who work put up a lot of low numbers. If i see a kid who scores 85 and 1 round in the 70’s then they don’t score in the 70’s. 

 

 

One thing I have learned about girls is when parents talk about there kids they always think their best score is what they are supposed to score. 
 
 

 

 

 

[MRx747]

I think 10 stroke variance is a safe number, but I have seen the top kid in my sons age group shoot 96 one tournament and 75 the next all within two weeks, so it’s not out of the equation for a +/- 20

 

as with your sheer luck comment, with the wind… if someone have a bad slice or hook, why are you even worried about their game? I haven’t seen a serious junior competitor with those issues. Also Luck imho is a big part of a nice day and a bad day! 

 

I personally only worry about my kid, but like you do take quick looks at kids his age and their score, but I don’t really worry or pay too much with what they are doing. My kid can shoot 77 day one and 86 day two with a bad bunker shot in a couple of holes.

[kekoa]

On 10/8/2021 at 11:35 AM, tiger1873 said:

 

 

 

What your described with you son is what I would expect -5 to 5 over as normal.  If he was usually 90 and then shot - 5 under that would not be normal.

 

I am talking about 20-25 point swings in tournament scores.  I am also not talking about younger kids either but kids who have played a lot tournaments at certain level players tend to be more consistent. 

 

Most junior scores tend to be pretty predictable based on the last 4 or 5 tournaments. 

From my experience, golf isn't normal.  Its a very tough game and things happen during the span of 18-36-54-72 holes.   Like TW said, all you can do is control yourself.  You have no control over other players so if they normally shoot 90's and catch fire with a -5 why lose sleep over it?  They shot what they did and it has no bearing on your or your daughter except her place in finishing.

 

If you look at the scoring history of a certain player, normally you can kind of gauge what they might shoot during a tournament.  There are also those other kids who haven't peaked and are fully capable of shooting a low number, but just haven't yet.  

[RobS]

I see juniors in their early teens shooting a wide range of scores.  I attribute it to their mental and emotional capacity at their stage in the game.  It's more common for me though to see the outlier high scores than it is the low score.  For example, a kid shoots most of his rounds in the low to mid 70's but will card an 88 from time to time.  That's usually 1 or 2 things going wrong and the kid not being able to mentally and emotionally manage their way out of it to salvage the round.

[Righty to Lefty]

Golf is hard...we all have about a 15 to 20 shot range that we will operate within on any given day.  Sure when you are playing well that window will be much tighter and of course we always latch onto our best scores and think that should always be the standard. I always pay attention to my scores right after a long layoff to see if that score is dropping because I want to know if my average is likely to shift downward.  I know that after getting my bearings I'll be back to shooting in the mid 70's to mid 80's but if I can lower my high range then my low range is likely lower also. 

[tiger1873]

The odds of kid shooting 20 points below their normal score on a course with similar setups is very low.  A lot parents think because you shoot lower on a short or easy setup you're going to score the same at tough course.   The better you are the more consistent the player will be across courses.  

 

So many parents out there always want to play the easiest course out there and then brag about lows score or lower JGS ranking.  Then the kid goes out plays a AGJA and gets killed.   You can save a lot time and money but find a few tournaments that setup like AJGA and play them. 

 

Playing hard tournaments and focusing on issues and having my daughter play her game has shown massive improvement.  Do I worry about other scores really only to the point I want to know why they get them.  Some players flat out play so you can learn a lot. Others get lucky and others well we all know about them. 

 

 

  

[ilikegolf26]

On 10/8/2021 at 1:32 PM, kekoa said:

Why do you always think a kid got lucky if he/she shoots a low score?  Sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

To answer your question and I'm speaking about my son only.  His scores in USkids tournaments can range anywhere from -5 to 5 over.  That is a huge differential, but it happens.  It kind of depends on who shows up that day and how many putts fall.  Over 5 tournaments so far, his average is 71. If we are talking about longer courses in the 5,700 yard range his scores range from -2 to maybe 6-7 over.  

That’s actually not a huge differential. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by ilikegolf26

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

1 hour ago, tiger1873 said:

The odds of kid shooting 20 points below their normal score on a course with similar setups is very low.  A lot parents think because you shoot lower on a short or easy setup you're going to score the same at tough course.   The better you are the more consistent the player will be across courses.  

 

So many parents out there always want to play the easiest course out there and then brag about lows score or lower JGS ranking.  Then the kid goes out plays a AGJA and gets killed.   You can save a lot time and money but find a few tournaments that setup like AJGA and play them. 

 

Playing hard tournaments and focusing on issues and having my daughter play her game has shown massive improvement.  Do I worry about other scores really only to the point I want to know why they get them.  Some players flat out play so you can learn a lot. Others get lucky and others well we all know about them. 

 

 

  

Man you need to relax on this stuff a little.  It's junior golf.  It's just one aspect if you want you child to play college.

What happens when they are at school and have to qualify each week for their spots.  You going to be emailing the coach or asking about lucky bounces.

 

"Alot of parents"  don't  care about rankings either.

[leezer99]

21 minutes ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

Man you need to relax on this stuff a little.  It's junior golf.  It's just one aspect if you want you child to play college.

What happens when they are at school and have to qualify each week for their spots.  You going to be emailing the coach or asking about lucky bounces.

 

"Alot of parents"  don't  care about rankings either.

What happens when they have to do their own laundry?

[RmoorePE]

I agree with RobS. Before a tournament my daughter and I will look at some of the players and go back through their scores to see if she is in the right tournament. A quick overview shows that most of the good players her age shoot around 70-75 in tournaments, but all of them have blow up days (mid to high 80s). Only a few have scores in the 60s. These are regular regional tournament kids. My daughter pretty much always scores between 80 and 85 in tournaments and finds herself in 2nd and 3rd more than we expect her to. Bad days happen to all of us.

 

In a couple tournaments we played with some kids with more national profiles and noticed that their game looked similar to the best regional kids, but when they had a blow up hole or got caught in a bad situation, they dealt with it much better. I.e. they made better golf decisions, and put it behind them quickly. Really fun to watch them play.

 

 

[tiger1873]

1 hour ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

Man you need to relax on this stuff a little.  It's junior golf.  It's just one aspect if you want you child to play college.

What happens when they are at school and have to qualify each week for their spots.  You going to be emailing the coach or asking about lucky bounces.

 

"Alot of parents"  don't  care about rankings either.

 

There is a big reason why I said what I said. 

 

One the biggest things we done in the last year was implement a strategy to improve the worst scores my daughter gets.  We all been there and seen scores that make your jaw drop and you slump over as you walk back to your car.

 

Once I started to understand the concept of range of scores we started to see dramatic improvement. her scores are direct result of us working on things that cause higher scores.   Have seen a dramatic score drops with over 20 strokes over a 2 day tournament in a year so what we are doing is working well.  This was a direct result from working on a complete game and avoiding shortcuts that lower scores but hurts in the long run.

 

I know it's popular to say rankings do not matter but from experience it does.  First as you move up you start to see much more respect and not only that people notice your kid.  You also can discounts easier on equipment.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by tiger1873

[tiger1873]

45 minutes ago, RmoorePE said:

I agree with RobS. Before a tournament my daughter and I will look at some of the players and go back through their scores to see if she is in the right tournament. A quick overview shows that most of the good players her age shoot around 70-75 in tournaments, but all of them have blow up days (mid to high 80s). Only a few have scores in the 60s. These are regular regional tournament kids. My daughter pretty much always scores between 80 and 85 in tournaments and finds herself in 2nd and 3rd more than we expect her to. Bad days happen to all of us.

 

In a couple tournaments we played with some kids with more national profiles and noticed that their game looked similar to the best regional kids, but when they had a blow up hole or got caught in a bad situation, they dealt with it much better. I.e. they made better golf decisions, and put it behind them quickly. Really fun to watch them play.

 

 

 

 

That is what I have seen a lot the better kids nationally do not blow up holes.  It takes a lot skill for that not to happen over 18 holes. 

 

Far easier to be under par with only 1 or 2 bogeys.  If you get a doubles and triple breaking 75 or even 80 is very hard.

[cwilk]

It's not uncommon to see a 20 stroke or so difference from PGA Tour players in one season.  So I think it's safe to assume a junior with a scoring average of 80 to shoot anywhere from 70 to 90.

 

https://www.liveabout.com/tiger-woods-scores-1566354

[tiger1873]

59 minutes ago, cwilk said:

It's not uncommon to see a 20 stroke or so difference from PGA Tour players in one season.  So I think it's safe to assume a junior with a scoring average of 80 to shoot anywhere from 70 to 90.

 

https://www.liveabout.com/tiger-woods-scores-1566354

 

Most of those high scores for Tiger is after he got hurt and I would think that explains why they were so high.  If your healthy maybe 10 stokes is more common  from average score.   Even for tiger his average score was nowhere near his best score.

Edited October 12, 2021 by tiger1873

[Medson]

2 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

One the biggest things we done in the last year was implement a strategy to improve the worst scores my daughter gets.  We all been there and seen scores that make your jaw drop and you slump over as you walk back to your car.

 

Once I started to understand the concept of range of scores we started to see dramatic improvement. her scores are direct result of us working on things that cause higher scores.   Have seen a dramatic score drops with over 20 strokes over a 2 day tournament in a year so what we are doing is working well.  This was a direct result from working on a complete game and avoiding shortcuts that lower scores but hurts in the long run.

 

I would love to make this statement the focal discussion point of this thread instead of why some kids shoot 10 strokes better in one round. 

[kekoa]

5 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

The odds of kid shooting 20 points below their normal score on a course with similar setups is very low.  A lot parents think because you shoot lower on a short or easy setup you're going to score the same at tough course.   The better you are the more consistent the player will be across courses.  

 

So many parents out there always want to play the easiest course out there and then brag about lows score or lower JGS ranking.  Then the kid goes out plays a AGJA and gets killed.   You can save a lot time and money but find a few tournaments that setup like AJGA and play them. 

 

Playing hard tournaments and focusing on issues and having my daughter play her game has shown massive improvement.  Do I worry about other scores really only to the point I want to know why they get them.  Some players flat out play so you can learn a lot. Others get lucky and others well we all know about them. 

 

 

  

All I read is a lot of 'Others this and other parents that.'  Keep focusing on your daughter alone and she will improve and finish more in line where you think she should be.  According to your other comments this already seems to be working so keep it going.  

[tiger1873]

1 hour ago, Medson said:

 

I would love to make this statement the focal discussion point of this thread instead of why some kids shoot 10 strokes better in one round. 

 

 

 

Most of that is a bigger topic and for another thread.  Hopefully if we continue there will be some good things happen in the next year. My daughter has improved and there is a lot good stuff happening but we still improving and hoping this is only the start.   I really don't like talking specifics about her because I think people read too much into it.

 

Success happens fast we gone from behind to middle of the pack to suddenly winning.  In the last 5 out 6 tournaments she has either won or been in the top 3 and some these tournaments had high ranked players she beat.  Having a kid suddenly winning a lot is a very weird feeling to be honest and hell of a lot more stressful.  

 

Figuring out how and why some kids get lowers scores has been a big part of this success.   You can learn things from parents and kids who are doing well. 

 

The first thing I learned you need to figure who is actually scoring better and who is taking short cuts. The better players all have a lot things in common. They play a wide variety of courses and play a lot tournaments where people are from all over.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by tiger1873

[cwilk]

2 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

 

Most of those high scores for Tiger is after he got hurt and I would think that explains why they were so high.  If your healthy maybe 10 stokes is more common  from average score.   Even for tiger his average score was nowhere near his best score.

 

Not really.  Check out the scores by year next to each other:

 

2000: Low/60, High/76 - Difference of 16 strokes (earned over $9 million)

2005: Low/61 , High/75 - Difference of 14 strokes (earned over $10 million)

2006: Low/63, High/76 - Difference of 13 strokes (earned over $9 million)

2007: Low/62, High/76 - Difference of 14 strokes (earned over $10 million)

2009: Low/62, High/75 - Difference of 13 strokes (earned over $10 million)

2013: Low/61, High/79 - Difference of 18 strokes (earned over $8 million)

 

I picked his best seasons based on earnings and he still had a difference of at least 13 strokes from his best to worst rounds and that is probably the best player in golf during that time.  

 

So I stand by my belief that 20 strokes in a season is not unreasonable.  I've noticed that the scoring window is similar in juniors, only the window starts and ends in different scores.  Obviously the courses aren't always as long or nearly as difficult, but courses/conditions are likely relative to their (the juniors) abilities so I'm not sure that should be a factor.  

Edited October 12, 2021 by cwilk

[kekoa]

Thats interesting stuff @cwilk.  Puts things into perspective.  Does your source also show how many tournaments he played in the above years?

[cwilk]

1 minute ago, kekoa said:

Thats interesting stuff @cwilk.  Puts things into perspective.  Does your source also show how many tournaments he played in the above years?

Yes, here's the source:

 

https://www.pgatour.com/players/player.08793.tiger-woods.html

 

Scroll down to results and select each year you want to view.  It shows each round/score, how many rounds, total money, etc.

[tiger1873]

19 minutes ago, cwilk said:

 

Not really.  Check out the scores by year next to each other:

 

2000: Low/60, High/76 - Difference of 16 strokes (earned over $9 million)

2005: Low/61 , High/75 - Difference of 14 strokes (earned over $10 million)

2006: Low/63, High/76 - Difference of 13 strokes (earned over $9 million)

2007: Low/62, High/76 - Difference of 14 strokes (earned over $10 million)

2009: Low/62, High/75 - Difference of 13 strokes (earned over $10 million)

2013: Low/61, High/79 - Difference of 18 strokes (earned over $8 million)

 

I picked his best seasons based on earnings and he still had a difference of at least 13 strokes from his best to worst rounds and that is the probably the best player in golf during that time.  

 

So I stand by my belief that 20 strokes in a season is not unreasonable.  I've noticed that the scoring window is similar in juniors, only the window starts and ends in different scores.  Obviously the courses aren't always as long or nearly as difficult, but courses/conditions are likely relative to their (the juniors) abilities so I'm not sure that should be a factor.  

 

 

 Anyone including Tiger in his prime is going to have a hard time beating par for every round on every course.   I wouldn't expect any PGA player to score above 80 unless something was very wrong.  I would guess most rounds are closer to 69-72 in any given year.  These other scores are outliers.

 

With Juniors your not going to see a player who scores mid 70's shoot 90 if they do they should have dropped out those tournaments.  Something is really bad if there putting down huge numbers.  The same thing with a junior who shoots 90 isn't going to be under par either.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by tiger1873

[cwilk]

1 hour ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

 Anyone including Tiger in his prime is going to have a hard time beating par for every round on every course.   I wouldn't expect any PGA player to score above 80 unless something was very wrong.  I would guess most rounds are closer to 69-72 in any given year.  These other scores are outliers.

 

With Juniors your not going to see a player who scores mid 70's shoot 90 if they do they should have dropped out those tournaments.  Something is really bad if there putting down huge numbers.  The same thing with a junior who shoots 90 isn't going to be under par either.

 

 

That’s just not true. My sons lowest this season is 74 and his highest is 92. His scoring average is 81. He had a great day for the 74 and a terrible day for the 92. 
 

According to placement services dropping a tournament because of poor play is terrible in the eyes of recruiters. The better route is to learn early which courses or type or course a player excels at and focus on tournaments that play to their benefit. 

[leezer99]

13 hours ago, cwilk said:

According to placement services dropping a tournament because of poor play is terrible in the eyes of recruiters. The better route is to learn early which courses or type or course a player excels at and focus on tournaments that play to their benefit. 

 

Makes sense.  On another note, anyone familiar with a course that has no trees or OB left?

[tiger1873]

15 hours ago, cwilk said:

 

According to placement services dropping a tournament because of poor play is terrible in the eyes of recruiters. The better route is to learn early which courses or type or course a player excels at and focus on tournaments that play to their benefit. 

 

This is not true if you have a good excuse no one cares if you drop out.  For example if a top 100 player is having a bad day and it's in the 90's it's pretty obvious something is not right.   Players drop out all the time do to valid reasons at every level. If you play enough tournaments eventually you have to WD from one once in a while.

 

If your kid is having a blow up day that makes you wonder did they even practice you should withdraw them because your not helping their mental game.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by tiger1873