distance debate

[buckeyefl]

On 4/16/2022 at 4:33 PM, milesgiles said:

 

but its not rhetorical is it. You really dont think there is an issue. Unfortunately for you, the R andA, the usga, ANGC etc all acknowledge that there is

They acknowledge a lot of things that show their ignorance so I'm not exactly sure how that helps the argument.

[buckeyefl]

23 hours ago, Jim53 said:

Hmm, I was watching it live and did not notice their pants legs being blown about by the wind or even any hint of wind. But then again I was not really looking for it either and my lazyboy is well protected from the elements..

 

I need to add I am trying out new Pna Colada recipes for the guest tomorrow so that my have affected my judgement also.

You definitely had Pina Colada googles on if you missed the wind.

[buckeyefl]

5 hours ago, gvogel said:

Traditional size would be the size with a wooden head, before the aerospace engineers got laid off and brought titanium to golf.

Who are you or anyone else to decide when traditional starts. We've been through this a thousand times but I am guessing you are using stell and graphite shafts. So why the lack of "tradition"?

[deadsolid...shank]

Oops.  Wrong thread. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by deadsolid...shank

[milesgiles]

8 hours ago, buckeyefl said:

Who are you or anyone else to decide when traditional starts. We've been through this a thousand times but I am guessing you are using stell and graphite shafts. So why the lack of "tradition"?

 

answered endlessly itt by me and others 

[MUNIGRIT]

19 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

Traditional as in persimmon or the first metal drivers. The cc of those clubs doesn’t need defining exactly except for those being deliberately obtuse 

For a game that has been around for over 200 years taking the first metal wood from 30 years ago doesn't seem very "traditional". 

[Titleist99]

Most traditionalist have a hard time defining traditional......

they don't know if they want to go back before Tiger, Jack, Hogan , Jones or "ol Tom.....IMO

[caniac6]

Didn’t hear anything about distance during the Hilton Head tournament. Maybe they need to play tighter courses.

[ChipStrokes]

8 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

answered endlessly itt by me and others 

it hasn't been answered at all.  the roll back crowd can't seem to agree on what exactly they're trying to accomplish.

[ThinkingPlus]

8 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

Didn’t hear anything about distance during the Hilton Head tournament. Maybe they need to play tighter courses.

Good course design will balance skills.  The modern architects don't want to work that hard and are enamored with aesthetics (see Pete Dye for counter example).   Some of the old classics still hold up well, but many that relied on singular features to make the course tough have been overwhelmed by the variety of changes that began in the 70s (agronomy, fitness, equipment, data based strategies, etc...).

[munichop]

What I would like to see accomplished is an equal weighting of the skill sets necessary to compete on tour.  They measure all these strokes gained criteria from driving to putting.  In a balanced system one skill set wouldn't overwhelm others.  Even now while certain players drive it longer on average they still must have other skills to win.  That being said if the distance advantage overwhelms the design architecture of the course it skews the advantage too much to distance.  Throw in the variables of course setup, wind etc. and it gets more complicated.  

The result of all the tech improvements and optimization thru trackman is that more and more players have decided to chase distance as a quicker path to winning.  

I have said before that it is easier for a top player thru tech to hit it longer compared to say hitting irons closer to the hole.  So one of the offsets to length for its own purpose is to make it more challenging to hit it long and straight.  That can be done by capping moi and requiring balls to spin off line more than they currently do.  Then the guys who hit it more solidly have an advantage.  When Tiger was on his tear earlier in his career they measured why he hit it longer than other guys.  The found out hit hit it more near the c.g. more often and that gave him a huge advantage because everyone was playing spinny balatas.  Pro equipment needs to return to an era where the mis hit is punished more not covered up by the design improvements.  The results would put fear back into the player knowing he has to hit the ball well to gain an advantage. 

Same goes for short game and putting.  Few people develop a great short game without a lot of practice, same with putting.  But a player can gain distance by having a short session with trackman and getting a new shaft, head ball combination.  No other skill in the game can be improved that quickly- unless of course they all started using the square face wedge- you really can't hit it fat you know... 
 

[me05501]

1 hour ago, caniac6 said:

Didn’t hear anything about distance during the Hilton Head tournament. Maybe they need to play tighter courses.

 

It's interesting though to note how differently that course and that tournament present on TV compared to others. I would argue that it's a bit hard to watch. The tight confines make getting the usual camera angles a bit tough. It seems like the announcers are doing more to describe the challenges of the holes because they don't televise as well as most other places. 

 

If someone was looking for a conspiracy angle to why there aren't more tournaments played on short, tight courses maybe this is it. It's just not as compelling on TV IMO. 

[gvogel]

2 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

For a game that has been around for over 200 years taking the first metal wood from 30 years ago doesn't seem very "traditional". 

I have a Ping Rapture mini driver that looks pretty darn traditional.  Actually, more traditional (but a little bigger) than the original Pittsburgh Persimmon, which was only about 155 cc.  But it worked.

[gvogel]

2 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Most traditionalist have a hard time defining traditional......

they don't know if they want to go back before Tiger, Jack, Hogan , Jones or "ol Tom.....IMO

Driver head size was pretty much unchanged from Bobby Jones to Jack - easily 60 years (1920 to 1980).  Maybe longer.  That would be a good place to start.

 

You can throw out Old Tom (1860), who was using a driver that looked like a cross between a 1950's driver and a hockey stick.

[Titleist99]

32 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

It's interesting though to note how differently that course and that tournament present on TV compared to others. I would argue that it's a bit hard to watch. The tight confines make getting the usual camera angles a bit tough. It seems like the announcers are doing more to describe the challenges of the holes because they don't televise as well as most other places. 

 

If someone was looking for a conspiracy angle to why there aren't more tournaments played on short, tight courses maybe this is it. It's just not as compelling on TV IMO. 

Oh, I know television golf and the course did just fine.....

With the houses and owner coming into the action the intimate views, overhanging branches did well.....

 

Never once did I say "Boy, I wish this course was longer"

[caniac6]

51 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

It's interesting though to note how differently that course and that tournament present on TV compared to others. I would argue that it's a bit hard to watch. The tight confines make getting the usual camera angles a bit tough. It seems like the announcers are doing more to describe the challenges of the holes because they don't televise as well as most other places. 

 

If someone was looking for a conspiracy angle to why there aren't more tournaments played on short, tight courses maybe this is it. It's just not as compelling on TV IMO. 

I thought it was pretty compelling with so many guys having a chance on the back 9.

[Titleist99]

13 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Driver head size was pretty much unchanged from Bobby Jones to Jack - easily 60 years (1920 to 1980).  Maybe longer.  That would be a good place to start.

 

You can throw out Old Tom (1860), who was using a driver that looked like a cross between a 1950's driver and a hockey stick.

Okay, now what ball and shaft are we using with that driver club head? If we change the head, we must go back with all the corresponding eqiupment.....

[Titleist99]

Just now, caniac6 said:

I thought it was pretty compelling with so many guys having a chance on the back 9.

All we can ask for in a televised tournament...

[milesgiles]

26 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

I thought it was pretty compelling with so many guys having a chance on the back 9.

 

yes, it was

 

did you notice how there were so few holes they could actually pull their toasters out for?

 

do you think the two things are related??!

[milesgiles]

3 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

For a game that has been around for over 200 years taking the first metal wood from 30 years ago doesn't seem very "traditional". 

 

exactly why its pointless giving you an exact year or size to roll back to. We'd all say something slightly different and inevitably you'd say 'pah..cant even agree amongst yourselves..'

 

broadly, a lot of us say the same thing about the driver. Way, way too forgiving. Shamefully so actually

[Shilgy]

5 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

yes, it was

 

did you notice how there were so few holes they could actually pull their toasters out for?

 

do you think the two things are related??!

No more compelling than the recent events with similar results ….so I will actually answer your question.  NO

 

i take it you would be happy with golf being played with a 13 club limit?  Just remove  driver from everyone’s bag would be your ideal?

[milesgiles]

2 hours ago, munichop said:

What I would like to see accomplished is an equal weighting of the skill sets necessary to compete on tour.  They measure all these strokes gained criteria from driving to putting.  In a balanced system one skill set wouldn't overwhelm others.  Even now while certain players drive it longer on average they still must have other skills to win.  That being said if the distance advantage overwhelms the design architecture of the course it skews the advantage too much to distance.  Throw in the variables of course setup, wind etc. and it gets more complicated.  

The result of all the tech improvements and optimization thru trackman is that more and more players have decided to chase distance as a quicker path to winning.  

I have said before that it is easier for a top player thru tech to hit it longer compared to say hitting irons closer to the hole.  So one of the offsets to length for its own purpose is to make it more challenging to hit it long and straight.  That can be done by capping moi and requiring balls to spin off line more than they currently do.  Then the guys who hit it more solidly have an advantage.  When Tiger was on his tear earlier in his career they measured why he hit it longer than other guys.  The found out hit hit it more near the c.g. more often and that gave him a huge advantage because everyone was playing spinny balatas.  Pro equipment needs to return to an era where the mis hit is punished more not covered up by the design improvements.  The results would put fear back into the player knowing he has to hit the ball well to gain an advantage. 

Same goes for short game and putting.  Few people develop a great short game without a lot of practice, same with putting.  But a player can gain distance by having a short session with trackman and getting a new shaft, head ball combination.  No other skill in the game can be improved that quickly- unless of course they all started using the square face wedge- you really can't hit it fat you know... 
 

 

perfectly said and essentially what ANGC and others say

[milesgiles]

2 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

it hasn't been answered at all.  the roll back crowd can't seem to agree on what exactly they're trying to accomplish.

 

read munichops post two below yours. Ask us if theres anything you dont understand 

[milesgiles]

37 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Okay, now what ball and shaft are we using with that driver club head? If we change the head, we must go back with all the corresponding eqiupment.....

 

since youre asking, Im not necessarily convinced about changing the ball. Maybe it would be an improvement if it span more, I simply dont know.

I do know it doesnt make the slightest difference to the toaster debate. The two issues can stand by themselves

[caniac6]

7 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

yes, it was

 

did you notice how there were so few holes they could actually pull their toasters out for?

 

do you think the two things are related??!

Definitely a course that required strategy over strength. Driver was an option, but there was a real risk / reward. Now, that’s at the professional level. Driver is in play for most amateurs playing the course. I really enjoyed seeing JT and Villegas hitting low shots with their drivers.

 

 

[milesgiles]

5 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

No more compelling than the recent events with similar results ….so I will actually answer your question.  NO

 

i take it you would be happy with golf being played with a 13 club limit?  Just remove  driver from everyone’s bag would be your ideal?

 

wouldnt hurt at all

[me05501]

54 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Oh, I know television golf and the course did just fine.....

With the houses and owner coming into the action the intimate views, overhanging branches did well.....

 

Never once did I say "Boy, I wish this course was longer"

 

40 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

I thought it was pretty compelling with so many guys having a chance on the back 9.

 

 

If there's one great thing about the tournament it's that the course keeps a lot of guys in it and there's usually a dramatic finish. I just don't enjoy the claustrophobic visuals on TV. It seems like every camera angle is partially obstructed. It makes me really uncomfortable to watch. 

[clevited]

14 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

wouldnt hurt at all

 

HOLY RESPONSE BARRAGE BAT-MAN!  

 

Welcome back Miles, everyone missed ya.  This thread is BACK!

[Shilgy]

26 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

read munichops post two below yours. Ask us if theres anything you dont understand 

I get the idea of what @munichopsuggested.  Sounds wonderful.  But since you prefer “traditional”please let me know what exact era that was a reality?  By my count the most dominant players ever….Jones Hogan Snead Jack Norman Tiger had something  one glaring something advantage over most of the field.  Any idea what that advantage was?  If you need to do some research on this we can wait.  But I’ll give you a hint….they were not short knockers for their era.  So it has nothing whatsoever with your toaster.  It is strictly an advantage to be long.

[Titleist99]

To dispel this myth on the GolFwrx board.......

    television golfers mishit golf shot all the time and they are punished for them all of them time.....

 

The networks just don't show them. Stop thinking that all pro hit perfect shot because they have modern equipment.........

   They show the golfers that's playing well ......

         Unless you're Tiger of course.