LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, idrive said:

 

You act like it's Monahan's fault we have a "watered down brand of golf".  

 

Everything was just fine until Norman came up with the money to enact his revenge. Now, we have what we have.  I find it laughable when people think Greg's the good guy in any of this and the PGAT (Monahan) is the bad guy.

 

There can not be two #1 tours. For those that believe Norman wanted to coexist and not be the top dog are delusional. 

Yep.

 

Norman was hired for a reason, Phil was hired for a reason.  They've failed to deliver on what they were expected to and likely promised to deliver.  

 

Now we have people trying to deflect it all by saying it was never about a real business model, lol, duh.  The $$$$$$ was all about a quick luring of major stars and once they had them, exploiting them and exerting leverage.

 

Big miscalculations all the way around, so no, they weren't smart guys with loads of money, just arrogant guys who have almost always gotten their way in other sports with $$$$$$.  

 

Let's see how that big selling of franchises idea pays off --- should have already happened, haha, but who in their right mind would want to own one of these teams?  Those are the people who will likely be evaluating from a real profit and loss point of view, unless the LIV masters decide to subsidize that as well.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[Nixhex524]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

How would that work? Who would be willing to sponsor PGA Tour events if they had no idea what players would play?

 

Or better yet, Greg, why should the these “independent contractors” be contracted to play ALL 14 LIV events AND THEN be able to pick and choose which PGA Tour events they wish to deign with their presence.

 

The PGA is the bigger brand.  The players agree to their PGAT season and show up when they agree to.  If they want to play LIV events on off weeks, then let them.  Dont ban them and rip their membership away, something THEY earned.  Jay Monahan is a child and handled this all so poorly, it tarnished the PGA IMO.  You can't tell me there was NO way to keep the players on the PGAT,  and let them play LIV till it folds.  Everyone, including PGAT players and leadership seems to think LIV will fold.   Fine.  Then let it run its course while preserving what makes the PGAT so great, the players....  Then you get on your high horse and let the world know how great the PGAT actually is because it can withstand competition in a professional manner.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Short Pete said:

LIV is not about playing where you want. It’s about buying out the best players and having them play exclusively at every LIV event. It was never about co-existence. LIV has to have closed shop, otherwise the team stuff wouldn’t work. GN thought he could buy OWGR points, and his players could play elsewhere when LIV is not on. They miscalculated everything they set out to do. They don’t have enough big names, they don’t get TV exposure. The team concept doesn’t work, the stars don’t perform consistently. They won’t get OWGR points, they don’t find investors for their teams. And the field fillers like Uihlein, Gooch, Howell and Lee sit atop the rankings. Because it’s their chance to make life-changing money against weak competition. They are the ones that carry a tour they wouldn’t be on if Norman and FIGJAM had succeeded. But they haven’t. 10 elite players, half of whom don’t bother to practice, a dozen over-the-hill Europeans, and a bunch of journeymen. I don’t see one single elite player from the PGA going over. 

 

That's not how is was in the beginning.  LIV talked about coexisting.  That has obviously gone out the window when Monahan was the one who stomped that idea and fired players from the PGAT.  That was all on him.  I personally dont care if LIV succeeds or fails, I'm just stating what I think this all could have been and how it could have worked out better for the fans should LIV fold.   This idea that these guys shouldn't take life changing money is so absurd...  You dont have to like it.  If you ever get the chance, please... PLEASE don't do it.   And sure there are "over the hill" players on LIV, so are there on the PGAT.  You had half the top ten at the Masters being LIV guys and Phil who's got 25 years on some of these guys, finishing SECOND...  "dont bother to practice"..  HA!!!  There are no "elite" players except for maybe Rahm anymore, so all this griping about LIV, why not find a way where everyone gets what they want?  Monahan knows he can't compete with the money, that's why he's been scared since day 1.   So build a better model.  Which is what he's attempting to do, it just so happens to somewhat resemble LIVs.

 

1 hour ago, idrive said:

 

You act like it's Monahan's fault we have a "watered down brand of golf".  

 

Everything was just fine until Norman came up with the money to enact his revenge. Now, we have what we have.  I find it laughable when people think Greg's the good guy in any of this and the PGAT (Monahan) is the bad guy.

 

There can not be two #1 tours. For those that believe Norman wanted to coexist and not be the top dog are delusional. 

 

It is 100% his fault.  I don't think Greg is a good guy either.  But Monahan reacted instead of finding a way to make this work better for the PGAT.  He acted like the Tour isn't built on the backs of the players.  The PGAT is the number #1 Tour.  I think it always would have been.  But you can't knee jerk react and just start lopping heads in a moment of panic.  He should have preserved the relationships with players instead of he and Rory building some campaign to demonize these guys at every tour stop.  They were offered contracts.  Again, you dont have to like it, don't watch it, hate it... whatever you want, but it isn't up to anyone else but the guy with the pen in his hand.  Move on. If you think LIV is trash and will fail, then keep building your own brand better until they do.  Then you lose nothing and prove that the PGAT is THE place to be and carry on stronger than before.  I think it could have worked out better for the players and fans is all.

[MoeMoe]

6 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

Not everyone has as much disposable free time as you, but if I did I wouldnt waste it watching 15 hours of Liv golf. So many other things to do like actually playing golf

I don't know how you came to that response from what was written. 

Playing golf i do when i'm not in airports.

[Nixhex524]

3 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

It's interesting and not apparently coincidental that after one good week in Australia and a week limited to good things for LIV only in Australia (except for the bad PR afterward, lol, about getting gouged by taxes) that we have all sorts of LIV revisionist history flying around. 

 

From day one there was nothing in the PGA Tour "negotiating" with LIV or wanting to co-exist, that's pretty elementary and would have been playing LIV's game and giving it what it wanted.  How many times have we heard over the past year:  "If only the Tour would talk to us" "The Tour must talk to us" "How dare the Tour not talk to us" and on and on - it's been a whine fest and ridiculous.  The Tour wasn't going to legitimize the threat.

 

Why not let them play where they want? LOL, they are members of the Tour and the Tour has rules. It's not a question of "personal time", that makes no sense.

 

Watered down brand of golf?  LOL, because DJ and Phil and Brooks and whomever aren't playing? Hardly the case and any reasonable look at metrics indicates the LIV guys aren't missed by most fans, and most fans' view of LIV has been and continues to be negative.  If someone enjoys what it has to offer by all means watch it, but what LIV is not stuck presenting as its product is nothing like what it set out to do (but its planning was terrible, its media efforts worse and all based on money and greed allowing a quick takeover). 

 

The Tour hasn't demonized any players but LIV's "CEO" and its player designated spokespersons have done so whether directed at other players or Monahan.

 

None of this is new, all of it is reality and with LIV failing it seems that there have to be more and "louder" attempts to excuse its behavior or play the "why can't they just get along" card.  There is no getting along and won't be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then die on that sword is all I am saying.  Jay knew he couldn't compete with the money, it wasn't up to him to legitimize.  It was already going to be legit if they could get a decent stable of players.  And they did.  There was nothing Jay could do to stop it.  Instead banning players was his move.  Fine.  It looks weak and childish, but it is what it is.  All I am saying is, it didn't have to be this way.  

 

I'm not excusing LIVs behavior, or Monahans.  They both suck and have acted like children.  Monahan didn't have to fire anyone over a league that won't make it anyway.  Greg is Greg and I won't excuse him at all.  He's insufferable.  PGAT would not be watered down when it does fail, but Jay made that bed and only the fans will suffer.  It must have been a tough pill to swallow to see so many LIV guys in competition on Sunday at the Masters.  You can't hide from the truth that without those guys, the regular PGAT events aren't the best against the best and wont be because of Jay.  But lets ONLY demonize the Saudis.  It makes no sense.  Monahan should have looked further down the road IMO to when LIV does go under... Weird that you can all see it but he can't.  What does that say?

[dalehead]

7 hours ago, CDM said:

 

100% true but does anyone think the backers of LIV started this to make money?  Honestly anyone at this point?   

 

The amount of money that have it it does not matter. Look at the pictures of the leadership of the PIF, some are wearing watches that run in the 250K range and above in the open market....!  This not about profit. 

It’s possible the leadership of the PIF doesn’t care about profit. Like you I can only speculate about that. But while we’re speculating I do think they care about looking foolish and irrelevant, which so far they do.

[Shilgy]

6 hours ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

The PGA is the bigger brand.  The players agree to their PGAT season and show up when they agree to.  If they want to play LIV events on off weeks, then let them.  Dont ban them and rip their membership away, something THEY earned.  Jay Monahan is a child and handled this all so poorly, it tarnished the PGA IMO.  You can't tell me there was NO way to keep the players on the PGAT,  and let them play LIV till it folds.  Everyone, including PGAT players and leadership seems to think LIV will fold.   Fine.  Then let it run its course while preserving what makes the PGAT so great, the players....  Then you get on your high horse and let the world know how great the PGAT actually is because it can withstand competition in a professional manner.  

 

 

 

That's not how is was in the beginning.  LIV talked about coexisting.  That has obviously gone out the window when Monahan was the one who stomped that idea and fired players from the PGAT.  That was all on him.  I personally dont care if LIV succeeds or fails, I'm just stating what I think this all could have been and how it could have worked out better for the fans should LIV fold.   This idea that these guys shouldn't take life changing money is so absurd...  You dont have to like it.  If you ever get the chance, please... PLEASE don't do it.   And sure there are "over the hill" players on LIV, so are there on the PGAT.  You had half the top ten at the Masters being LIV guys and Phil who's got 25 years on some of these guys, finishing SECOND...  "dont bother to practice"..  HA!!!  There are no "elite" players except for maybe Rahm anymore, so all this griping about LIV, why not find a way where everyone gets what they want?  Monahan knows he can't compete with the money, that's why he's been scared since day 1.   So build a better model.  Which is what he's attempting to do, it just so happens to somewhat resemble LIVs.

 

 

It is 100% his fault.  I don't think Greg is a good guy either.  But Monahan reacted instead of finding a way to make this work better for the PGAT.  He acted like the Tour isn't built on the backs of the players.  The PGAT is the number #1 Tour.  I think it always would have been.  But you can't knee jerk react and just start lopping heads in a moment of panic.  He should have preserved the relationships with players instead of he and Rory building some campaign to demonize these guys at every tour stop.  They were offered contracts.  Again, you dont have to like it, don't watch it, hate it... whatever you want, but it isn't up to anyone else but the guy with the pen in his hand.  Move on. If you think LIV is trash and will fail, then keep building your own brand better until they do.  Then you lose nothing and prove that the PGAT is THE place to be and carry on stronger than before.  I think it could have worked out better for the players and fans is all.

How much are they going to play the PGA tour if they must play all 14 events on LIV? Add in the four majors and many top players are done.

  The PGA players may be free to play when they choose but they do have minimum numbers of events they must play and sign a contract to those terms.  Said stipulations are determined by the players…not the commissioner.  

So do the math instead of lecturing others perhaps?  

[billyspan]

16 hours ago, CaseyC said:

https://cordcuttersnews.com/8-large-markets-are-losing-the-cw/

 

Recently Warner Bros. Discovery has sold majority control of The CW to Nexstar. Now some large affiliates in 8 markets are dropping The CW and becoming independent stations starting September 1st, 2023.

CBS stations in Atlanta, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Tampa, Sacramento, San Francisco, Seattle, and Tampa have announced that starting September 1st, 2023, they will be dropping The CW and becoming independent.

[SurfDuffer]

Thumbs up to Sergio for not paying the DP World Tour the fine they issued.

[ahenderX]

15 hours ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

The PGA is the bigger brand.  The players agree to their PGAT season and show up when they agree to.  If they want to play LIV events on off weeks, then let them.  Dont ban them and rip their membership away, something THEY earned.  Jay Monahan is a child and handled this all so poorly, it tarnished the PGA IMO.  You can't tell me there was NO way to keep the players on the PGAT,  and let them play LIV till it folds.  Everyone, including PGAT players and leadership seems to think LIV will fold.   Fine.  Then let it run its course while preserving what makes the PGAT so great, the players....  Then you get on your high horse and let the world know how great the PGAT actually is because it can withstand competition in a professional manner.  

 

 

 

That's not how is was in the beginning.  LIV talked about coexisting.  That has obviously gone out the window when Monahan was the one who stomped that idea and fired players from the PGAT.  That was all on him.  I personally dont care if LIV succeeds or fails, I'm just stating what I think this all could have been and how it could have worked out better for the fans should LIV fold.   This idea that these guys shouldn't take life changing money is so absurd...  You dont have to like it.  If you ever get the chance, please... PLEASE don't do it.   And sure there are "over the hill" players on LIV, so are there on the PGAT.  You had half the top ten at the Masters being LIV guys and Phil who's got 25 years on some of these guys, finishing SECOND...  "dont bother to practice"..  HA!!!  There are no "elite" players except for maybe Rahm anymore, so all this griping about LIV, why not find a way where everyone gets what they want?  Monahan knows he can't compete with the money, that's why he's been scared since day 1.   So build a better model.  Which is what he's attempting to do, it just so happens to somewhat resemble LIVs.

 

 

It is 100% his fault.  I don't think Greg is a good guy either.  But Monahan reacted instead of finding a way to make this work better for the PGAT.  He acted like the Tour isn't built on the backs of the players.  The PGAT is the number #1 Tour.  I think it always would have been.  But you can't knee jerk react and just start lopping heads in a moment of panic.  He should have preserved the relationships with players instead of he and Rory building some campaign to demonize these guys at every tour stop.  They were offered contracts.  Again, you dont have to like it, don't watch it, hate it... whatever you want, but it isn't up to anyone else but the guy with the pen in his hand.  Move on. If you think LIV is trash and will fail, then keep building your own brand better until they do.  Then you lose nothing and prove that the PGAT is THE place to be and carry on stronger than before.  I think it could have worked out better for the players and fans is all.

LIV revolves around team golf. Having Tour players play LIV events when they have no Tour events makes no sense. Well I guess it would make sense if no one cares who is on each team week-to-week.

[idrive]

Phil Mickelson gets vulgar in calling out Mike Whan, USGA after U.S. Open exemption rule change (msn.com)

 

Lynch: Phil Mickelson leads LIV Golf crybabies in blaming others for their predicament (msn.com)

 

And...

Peter Uihlein removes name from LIV Golf antitrust lawsuit against the PGA Tour

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 5/4/2023 at 6:11 AM, smashdn said:

 

I don't think so or they could have done it.  No need for LIV to have beat around the bush.  They could also have just went head to head against the "premier" pgat events and broke them.  Could have went right into the PGAT's backyard and done it.  From a marketing standpoint they could have done it.

 

Strategically it makes more sense if the goal was to break the PGAT to have taken over the DPWT and broke the PGAT that way.  LIV could have also bought television time to compete directly with PGAT product if they wished.

 

Instead they picked lower events and the first LIV event was in England.  The PIF has the funds and I am sure the mentality/ruthlessness to destroy the PGAT if that was the goal.  The actions don't lend themselves to that motive, or if it is truly their motive, they are playing a long game and being much more covert about it.

 

21 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

No.  I am not saying diddly squat about the players' thoughts or inclinations regarding LIV's motives.  I am strictly speaking to LIV's motives and why I think the line of thinking that the idea is to "destroy the PGAT" is foolhardy.

 

When you have unlimited cash you can afford to be stupid, but I don't think these guys are all stupid.  There is no doubt in my mind they know how to undercut a business (legally or not) and financially (that is important here) tear it apart.  Why didn't they do it?  Why keep beating around the bush so-to-speak?  Just bludgeon them if that is the goal and get on with it.

 

Picking lower level PGAT events *is* the long game. The goal was to get the big names. The big names don't play those events. 

 

If you put your tournaments up against the Farmers, WM, Genesis, API, the Players, the Memorial, etc, then you are basically forcing the big names to choose LIV vs PGAT. That's a "win or lose in 2 seasons" strategy, not a long game. 

 

The long game is to tell players "the PGAT wouldn't DARE ban you... come play these 54-hole tournaments for huge purses, no cut, and guaranteed you won't walk away with less than $120K against a limited field when you'd normally be sitting on your duff... what do you have to lose?" Then when you've spent 2-3 years legitimizing your product, players stop worrying about the PGAT events because they don't want to play 30 times a year, and they choose LIV. Congrats, you're now the #1 tour on the planet!

 

I will say that there is a point there--they don't want to "destroy" the PGAT (except probably Greg) in the sense that they want the PGAT to no longer exist. They, however, want to be the world's premier golf tour and if that means the PGAT becomes small potatoes, I don't think they care (again except for Greg).  They wanted to take the PGAT's place in the golf world, and are likely indifferent to any damage that occurs to the PGAT for them to get what they want. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

17 hours ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

The PGA is the bigger brand.  The players agree to their PGAT season and show up when they agree to.  If they want to play LIV events on off weeks, then let them. 

 

The PGAT has a competing events restriction for a reason. The top players agree to that restriction for a reason. 

 

The reason is that the gravy train is funded by TV broadcast deals. When the top players aren't playing PGAT events, that gravy train is still running and benefiting them. 

 

If the top players go play a competing LIV event, in North America, in the exact same broadcast window that the PGAT is broadcasting an event, just about every eyeball that's watching the LIV event is one that is NOT watching the PGAT. It reduces the PGAT's ratings. It devalues the PGAT as a broadcast product for advertisers. It's throwing sand in the gears of the gravy train that they rely on. 

 

This isn't about telling players what they can't do. It's about creating rules that protect the value of the product. One of those rules is requiring a player to request and be granted a release to play in a competing event, and NOT granting releases for events in North America that directly compete with the PGAT. With a few exceptions, it's also limited to 3 competing events releases per year. 

 

Letting PGAT players play a full LIV season, even if they fulfilled every other obligation of being a PGAT member wrt number of PGAT events played, etc, would cause tremendous devaluation of the PGAT product. That's what this is about, not Monahan being a tyrant. 

[CDM]

20 hours ago, idrive said:

 

You act like it's Monahan's fault we have a "watered down brand of golf".  

 

Everything was just fine until Norman came up with the money to enact his revenge. Now, we have what we have.  I find it laughable when people think Greg's the good guy in any of this and the PGAT (Monahan) is the bad guy.

 

There can not be two #1 tours. For those that believe Norman wanted to coexist and not be the top dog are delusional. 

 

LOL have to admit if you feel that way it is a bit shocking.

 

How long was LIV on the table...?  YEARS before it came true.  Yet JAY knew it was out there and ignored it and and here we are.

 

If you sit around in business and assume it will never happen that is ON YOU.... IE: JAY.

 

GN did say he wanted to "co-exist" and I pointed it out but never said he meant it...!  WE all know how he is and talks. 

[FriedEgg]

is there a Phil boycott on ?

 

[Cactus Jack]

Oh man, the LIV televised product is soooo much more watchable for me. I tried to watch the Wells Fargo and fell asleep… I physically cannot watch the PGAT.
 

I haven’t watched the PGAT in a long time, but it’s more boring than I remembered. Commercials, cut scenes, commercials, leaderboard, drive, putt, more commercials. Rather than show the actual tournament they play a 5 minute Jim Furyk highlight reel, followed by a cringe worthy Max Homa montage. The commentators are even worse. Heck, the old man sounds like he smoked two packs a day for 40 years. This is bad. 
 

I’ll watch the majors, but the PGAT has lost me. I’m all in on LIV. Every aspect of LIV is more entertaining for me. I prefer the players, like the teams, but the graphics and commentary have absolutely won me over. If LIV dies, which it may, I’ll be done watching golf. 
 

 

[HomaComa]

On 5/5/2023 at 4:03 PM, Hawkeye77 said:

Yep.

 

Norman was hired for a reason, Phil was hired for a reason.  They've failed to deliver on what they were expected to and likely promised to deliver.  

 

Now we have people trying to deflect it all by saying it was never about a real business model, lol, duh.  The $$$$$$ was all about a quick luring of major stars and once they had them, exploiting them and exerting leverage.

 

Big miscalculations all the way around, so no, they weren't smart guys with loads of money, just arrogant guys who have almost always gotten their way in other sports with $$$$$$.  

 

Let's see how that big selling of franchises idea pays off --- should have already happened, haha, but who in their right mind would want to own one of these teams?  Those are the people who will likely be evaluating from a real profit and loss point of view, unless the LIV masters decide to subsidize that as well.

 

 

LIV is getting stale now. 

[Hawkeye77]

On 5/5/2023 at 7:54 PM, Nixhex524 said:

 

Then die on that sword is all I am saying.  Jay knew he couldn't compete with the money, it wasn't up to him to legitimize.  It was already going to be legit if they could get a decent stable of players.  And they did.  There was nothing Jay could do to stop it.  Instead banning players was his move.  Fine.  It looks weak and childish, but it is what it is.  All I am saying is, it didn't have to be this way.  

 

I'm not excusing LIVs behavior, or Monahans.  They both suck and have acted like children.  Monahan didn't have to fire anyone over a league that won't make it anyway.  Greg is Greg and I won't excuse him at all.  He's insufferable.  PGAT would not be watered down when it does fail, but Jay made that bed and only the fans will suffer.  It must have been a tough pill to swallow to see so many LIV guys in competition on Sunday at the Masters.  You can't hide from the truth that without those guys, the regular PGAT events aren't the best against the best and wont be because of Jay.  But lets ONLY demonize the Saudis.  It makes no sense.  Monahan should have looked further down the road IMO to when LIV does go under... Weird that you can all see it but he can't.  What does that say?

You can toss around all the characterizations you want, but they don't change the facts.  Nobody got fired, nobody got "banned".  LIV didn't get anywhere near the stable of players it intended and needs to get.  The Tour has continued to react in a strategic and businesslike manner, not with the emotional silliness that keeps getting tossed around, and most recently by LIV players.

 

PGA Tour fans are hardly "suffering" and the Tour continues with strong performance and LIV, with the exception of a couple of days of fun in Australia, is again pretty much irrelevant.  So instead of touting the "success" of Singapore (of course, it wasn't) just new whining headlines because that's the sum total of its "strategy".

 

The Tour and DP World Tour hardly look weak.  Arbitration backed up DP World, and the lawsuit in the U.S. may not be long for this world.  Why are players dropping out and previously dropped like flies?  Either they or LIV don't want certain things discovered or players are thinking ahead to the inevitable day when they want back on the Tours --- most likely both.

 

Lynch's latest article hits the nail on the head, as usual.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[jdl]

19 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

Oh man, the LIV televised product is soooo much more watchable for me. I tried to watch the Wells Fargo and fell asleep… I physically cannot watch the PGAT.
 

I haven’t watched the PGAT in a long time, but it’s more boring than I remembered. Commercials, cut scenes, commercials, leaderboard, drive, putt, more commercials. Rather than show the actual tournament they play a 5 minute Jim Furyk highlight reel, followed by a cringe worthy Max Homa montage. The commentators are even worse. Heck, the old man sounds like he smoked two packs a day for 40 years. This is bad. 
 

I’ll watch the majors, but the PGAT has lost me. I’m all in on LIV. Every aspect of LIV is more entertaining for me. I prefer the players, like the teams, but the graphics and commentary have absolutely won me over. If LIV dies, which it may, I’ll be done watching golf. 
 

 

[TiScape]

19 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

I’ll watch the majors, but the PGAT has lost me. I’m all in on LIV. Every aspect of LIV is more entertaining for me. I prefer the players, like the teams, but the graphics and commentary have absolutely won me over. If LIV dies, which it may, I’ll be done watching golf. 
 

 

 

[Nixhex524]

51 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

You can toss around all the characterizations you want, but they don't change the facts.  Nobody got fired, nobody got "banned".  LIV didn't get anywhere near the stable of players it intended and needs to get.  The Tour has continued to react in a strategic and businesslike manner, not with the emotional silliness that keeps getting tossed around, and most recently by LIV players.

 

PGA Tours fans are hardly "suffering" and the Tour continues with strong performance and LIV, with the exception of a couple of days of fun in Australia, is again pretty much irrelevant.  So instead of touting the "success" of Singapore (of course, it wasn't) just new whining headlines because that's the sum total of its "strategy".

 

The Tour and DP World Tour hardly look weak.  Arbitration backed up DP World, and the lawsuit in the U.S. may not be long for this world.  Why are players dropping out and previously dropped like flies?  Either they or LIV don't want certain things discovered or players are thinking ahead to the inevitable day when they want back on the Tours --- most likely both.

 

Lynch's latest article hits the nail on the head, as usual.

 

 

 

My mistake.  "Suspended".  Meaning they are NOT eligible to play in certain PGAT events.  

 

You can have your opinions on how this is handled and I will have mine.  I don't fault you for it, I just don't see it the same way you do.  

 

The game itself suffers week to week, minus the majors without some of the best talent.  I'm sure we can adjust but weaker fields are constantly getting smacked around here for being snoozers or players who win them get an asterisk.  The tour is definitely watered down at this point without all of the top players in the world playing, I don't think there is any denying it.  I just think there could have been more talks to find a way to avoid it.  We can agree to disagree.  

 

 

[bscinstnct]

3 hours ago, Nixhex524 said:

 

My mistake.  "Suspended".  Meaning they are NOT eligible to play in certain PGAT events.  

 

You can have your opinions on how this is handled and I will have mine.  I don't fault you for it, I just don't see it the same way you do.  

 

The game itself suffers week to week, minus the majors without some of the best talent.  I'm sure we can adjust but weaker fields are constantly getting smacked around here for being snoozers or players who win them get an asterisk.  The tour is definitely watered down at this point without all of the top players in the world playing, I don't think there is any denying it.  I just think there could have been more talks to find a way to avoid it.  We can agree to disagree.  

 

 

 

Whatever the pga tour did, it was very effective given the money being thrown around by liv 

 

Norman in way over his head and PIF with little clue besides just throwing cash around. 
 

Good thing this was so incompetently done, if it was handle right, LiV would have a lot more top players.

 

Sean Bratches, the guy who vaulted F1 to explosive global growth quit liv after a few months.  That was the writing on the wall this would fail relative to the potential the resources might have delivered on. 

 

 

[orr444]

On 5/6/2023 at 2:32 PM, Cactus Jack said:

Oh man, the LIV televised product is soooo much more watchable for me. I tried to watch the Wells Fargo and fell asleep… I physically cannot watch the PGAT.
 

I haven’t watched the PGAT in a long time, but it’s more boring than I remembered. Commercials, cut scenes, commercials, leaderboard, drive, putt, more commercials. Rather than show the actual tournament they play a 5 minute Jim Furyk highlight reel, followed by a cringe worthy Max Homa montage. The commentators are even worse. Heck, the old man sounds like he smoked two packs a day for 40 years. This is bad. 
 

I’ll watch the majors, but the PGAT has lost me. I’m all in on LIV. Every aspect of LIV is more entertaining for me. I prefer the players, like the teams, but the graphics and commentary have absolutely won me over. If LIV dies, which it may, I’ll be done watching golf. 
 

 

My local CW plays reruns over LIV, I guess they get better ratings, but hey good for you!

[DaveLeeNC]

On 5/5/2023 at 10:06 AM, bscinstnct said:

But 500k viewers is not that bad…for now. If it’s not getting toward a million in a couple of years, I’d think they will reassess 

 

Is US viewership even the point here? I have no way of knowing but I have been assuming that if LIV got significant WW viewership then a complete US failure would net out a positive outcome from their perspective. 

 

dave

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Is US viewership even the point here? I have no way of knowing but I have been assuming that if LIV got significant WW viewership then a complete US failure would net out a positive outcome from their perspective. 

 

dave

 

Whatever the demographics are for them to sell advertising.  It wouldn't matter where just as long as the demographic had money to spend.  Without viewers who have disposable income they fail.

[mitchl]

2 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Is US viewership even the point here? I have no way of knowing but I have been assuming that if LIV got significant WW viewership then a complete US failure would net out a positive outcome from their perspective. 

 

dave

If WW viewership was on the rise, wouldn’t they get some sponsors?   They make a huge deal out if every sponsorship.   So far they have announced a sub-$100m company Easypost, and the Singapore resort where they had the low turnout event last week.
there are tons of large companies which have zero relationship with the PGA Tour and none of them have started sponsorships with LIV.   that and the requirements for the appearance in court is what’s going to end LIV.  

[dalehead]

2 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Is US viewership even the point here? I have no way of knowing but I have been assuming that if LIV got significant WW viewership then a complete US failure would net out a positive outcome from their perspective. 

 

dave

I think we’re on the verge of finding out if your assumption is correct.

[dalehead]

On 5/6/2023 at 9:08 AM, idrive said:

Phil Mickelson gets vulgar in calling out Mike Whan, USGA after U.S. Open exemption rule change (msn.com)

 

Lynch: Phil Mickelson leads LIV Golf crybabies in blaming others for their predicament (msn.com)

 

And...

Peter Uihlein removes name from LIV Golf antitrust lawsuit against the PGA Tour

 

Maybe after having some success on LIV Peter may be thinking he could have a successful career in golf after all. Best to start positioning himself now to be able to return to the PGAT when the Saudis plug the plug on LIV.

[HomaComa]

7 hours ago, orr444 said:

My local CW plays reruns over LIV, I guess they get better ratings, but hey good for you!

My local CW station cut off the LIV playoff in Tucson for Family Guy reruns 😂

[Hawkeye77]

9 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Is US viewership even the point here? I have no way of knowing but I have been assuming that if LIV got significant WW viewership then a complete US failure would net out a positive outcome from their perspective. 

 

dave

The failure to get a traditional TV deal and particularly on a major U.S. network that broadcasts sports is a huge negative outcome when you are claiming to have a Tour that can compete with the PGA Tour.  

[bscinstnct]

11 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Is US viewership even the point here? I have no way of knowing but I have been assuming that if LIV got significant WW viewership then a complete US failure would net out a positive outcome from their perspective. 

 

dave

 

I don’t think so. 
 

8 out of 14 events are in the US so clearly there’s a heavy focus on the US market and it reflects the commercial potential here vs the rest of the world. 
 

The PGA tour does over a billion in revenue with over 700MM in media rights and I assume 90% + is from US media. 
 

While the “international market” is sometimes viewed as this awesome market, what does it really translate into in terms of media revenue, at this point in time? Not in 20 or 50 years but now. 

 

LIV has all these TV deals with hundreds (it seems) of non-US media outlets but it’s so fragmented. And what value do advertisers get from it? 
 

Where in the US, pga tour is a goldmine to advertisers for the best spenders with the most money, high end cars, financial services, pharma. 
 

I again refer back to Sean Bratches, the sports media guru who built ESPN and F1 into what they are now. He left LIV after a few months. Perhaps he saw how this would unfold once he actually got inside?

Edited May 8, 2023 by bscinstnct