LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[jdl]

1 hour ago, PhilsFanDrew said:

So Talor Gooch's game didn't go to new heights since signing with LIV?  He won once on the PGAT and won 3 times last year and was the individual champion.  I know he's not super young but he is just in his prime years at 32.  For an example of a Ludvig Aberg or Will Zalatoris that you give as a young guy breaking through on the PGAT there are others that make it through Korn Ferry that fizzle out in the PGAT and are never heard from again.   There have also been success stories with relative unknown younger guys like David Puig or Eugenio Chacarra who have professional wins since joining LIV Golf that did secure their cards for this year.  A blanket statement that LIV isn't developing anyone's talent just simply isn't true.  

Gooch developed his game by playing PGA development tours in Canada and then web.com before making it to the main Tour. Reached an OWGR high of 31 before heading to LIV a few months after his first win. Tough to say if the LIV wins were "new heights" given the smaller fields and far fewer players ranked ahead of him. But the bulk of his development seems to be with the PGA side of things IMO.

[betarhoalphadelta]

57 minutes ago, Barfolomew said:

 

Nope..... We have Direct TV and no CW.... CW is an app at our house in Southern Cali.... as it is for many..... maybe not you

 

Ahh, I never realized you were in SoCal, Barf...

 

For me, I use Hulu Live TV which doesn't carry CW. I think it might be available OTA but since I have Hulu Live TV I don't currently have my outdoor antenna hooked up, as it would have been harder to route the cable when I mounted the TV on the wall as opposed to its previous location. 

 

I suppose I could have installed the CW app on my Roku...

 

...but I didn't want to. 

[nosedive32]

The no developmental tour argument and the average field size argument are both complete nonsense. The Tour can how however many 20-80 tournaments it wants without a cut because of "average field size." So had LIV made itself a clear extension of the Asian Tour instead of a separate partner entity they would have had points this whole time? You know that's a lie.

 

As far qualifying goes there's a direct pathway from the Asian Tour international series to Liv.

 

The qualifying tournament this year will award an additional 5 spots (up from 3 last year) with the field size increase. 

 

6/54 spots is > 11% turnover year to year. That's not too far removed from other tours. You're just having a little fit because "it's only 54 players" when now effectively the PGA Tour while in the eyes of the owgr is "one tour with average field sizes over 100 with 200ish members" is actually 2 tours with one almost locked into the same 80 guys throughout the year (albeit more potential for more year to year turnover in "PGA Tour premiere" but also less likely with boosted FEC points and no cuts

 

 

[pingbling23]

1 hour ago, hunterdog said:

Not being argumentative, but a real question. Did a PGAT replay get 1.211 million viewers vs. 432k for LIV live?

Me thinks they are fudging the numbers.  How does a replay of last years tournament get more views then tigers hero event?  Tiger brings the viewers right?

[woahnelly]

50 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

I see this argument often and it doesn’t hold up.

 

Four majors

Four WGCs

Four playoffs

Players

Rivera

Memorial

Bay Hill (Lost a lot recently)

Ryder/Presidents

Tournament of Champions

Traveler's

Waste Management

 

That’s basically an average of a tournament every other week where the best play against each other.

 

 

WGCs are extinct and now 3 playoff events. No Match Play event at all on the calendar, I know it was not popular but I enjoyed it 😭

[Frankensteins Monster]

24 minutes ago, woahnelly said:

 

WGCs are extinct and now 3 playoff events. No Match Play event at all on the calendar, I know it was not popular but I enjoyed it 😭

Correct, but I was talking about past years. Now, the WGC’s are replaced with the elevated events which there are more of. 

[wedgegame]

54 minutes ago, pingbling23 said:

Me thinks they are fudging the numbers.  How does a replay of last years tournament get more views then tigers hero event?  Tiger brings the viewers right?

So you are saying the LIV event didn't even get 423K viewers, you know since they are overcounting.  Or does the overcounting only apply to the PGAT event?

[pingbling23]

18 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

So you are saying the LIV event didn't even get 423K viewers, you know since they are overcounting.  Or does the overcounting only apply to the PGAT event?

What seems more reasonable?  Tiger returning to competitive golf with several of the worlds best getting less views then a replay of last years final round doesn’t seem right.  With all their contacts and incentive to have high viewership in relation to their 700 million tv contract, it would not surprise me to have some fluff happening.  I mean the cbs/pga tour affiliates were blocking LIV from airing in several high market areas around the country last season and I assume that’s continuing.  On golf channel the hero had less then 500k views the first 2 days average, that’s pickleball numbers.  Ofcourse they were bragging because that was double the viewers from the year before when there was no tiger.  Regardless, we all knew we would not get accurate ratings numbers for liv due the hurtles the pga tour and their tv cronies were putting up.  This a new product and the pga tour is well established.  No one expects LIV to be pulling in the same or even close to the viewership of the pga tour.  LIV is getting enough to cause the pga tour to change course and will increase as time goes on.

[grm24]

1 hour ago, pingbling23 said:

Me thinks they are fudging the numbers.  How does a replay of last years tournament get more views then tigers hero event?  Tiger brings the viewers right?

The PGA Tour isn't fudging numbers. Nielsen tracks the tv ratings and calculates the numbers. As they have for many years. But I'm sure the PGA Tour and Nielsen are in cahoots and it's a conspiracy against the exhibition tour.

[Louis_Posture]

1 hour ago, pingbling23 said:

  Tiger brings the viewers right?

That's a good question. My guess is that if he's not in contention and, or shooting a high score the broadcast won't show much of his play.

[Ghost of Snead]

1 hour ago, pingbling23 said:

Me thinks they are fudging the numbers.  How does a replay of last years tournament get more views then tigers hero event?  Tiger brings the viewers right?

 

Maybe - let's compare the numbers at Riviera week after next with this week's LIV numbers just to make sure Tiger's influence is diminished.

[Mcfly]

Back in the 1960s (yes, I'm old enough to remember) there was no shortage of sports purists saying "those second rate players who are playing in the AFL (American Football League) will never be worthy of playing real football against the National Football League.   Then one day...

[grm24]

3 hours ago, Barfolomew said:

 

Nope..... We have Direct TV and no CW.... CW is an app at our house in Southern Cali.... as it is for many..... maybe not you

Do you have the local channels tv package on your DirecTv service? CW is available over the air most everywhere. The CW has a website where you could find the channel it's on in your part of SoCal.

https://www.cwtv.com/thecw/stations/

 

Not sure where you are in SoCal but for instance the CW is on KFMB and in LA it's on KTLA. Both are carried by DirecTV Local. Just because you don't have CW on your satellite package doesn't mean it's not available over the air where you reside.

[pingbling23]

31 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

That's a good question. My guess is that if he's not in contention and, or shooting a high score the broadcast won't show much of his play.

What?  lol. Have you ever watched a golf tournament with tiger in it?

[woahnelly]

31 minutes ago, Mcfly said:

Back in the 1960s (yes, I'm old enough to remember) there was no shortage of sports purists saying "those second rate players who are playing in the AFL (American Football League) will never be worthy of playing real football against the National Football League.   Then one day...

And Jets fans have been miserable ever since (myself included)

[idrive]

LIV golfer admits being lied to about earning Official World Golf Ranking points

Norman lied? If he barefaced lied to the guys he was recruiting one can only imagine how much he's lied about most everything else.

 

 

.

 

 

Edited February 7 by idrive

[idrive]

Yes, it's true.

 

Pebble Beach rerun gets 3 times more linear TV viewers than LIV Golf (msn.com)

 

 

.

 

 

Edited February 7 by idrive

[idrive]

2 hours ago, nosedive32 said:

54 spots is > 11% turnover year to year. That's not too far removed from other tours. You're just having a little fit because "it's only 54 players" when now effectively the PGA Tour while in the eyes of the owgr is "one tour with average field sizes over 100 with 200ish members" is actually 2 tours with one almost locked into the same 80 guys throughout the year (albeit more potential for more year to year turnover in "PGA Tour premiere" but also less likely with boosted FEC points and no cuts

 

When they (liv) submitted for OWGR points their supposed qualifying was not the same as it supposedly is now.

 

And that is not a lie.

[PedronNiall]

On 2/5/2024 at 1:36 PM, wedgegame said:

I think this is where the connection to F1 keeps coming up.  As far as I know, F1 teams are tied to brand not a location, and I think that was the vision for LIV.  I would imagine they envisioned having a team Callaway and Taylormade, but the major OEMs haven't bought in.  I'll get some flak for this, but I think eSports has done a pretty good job of cultivating iconic teams that aren't necessarily tied to a specific geography.  They did it by making the athletes/talents (don't want to open that can of worms) the driving factor in team fandom.  They are more accessible via social media, Twitch, etc and fans form a connection with them.  I have nothing against Ian Poulter, but in no way do I (and I'd wager many other people) find him relatable.  Alternatively, I think Bryson is the closest to this.

One thing that eSports teams have in common with most traditional sports is that the players earn their big payouts throughout the year. They don't just get seven, eight, and nine figures thrown at them for signing up with no requirement to play at the top level in order to keep it. eSports competitors have to be competitive to make their money. LIV is an exhibition league with the paychecks doled out before the first ball is struck. LIV will never be anything other than an exhibition league as long as its current format remains in place.

 

I can also promise you that if some giant fund swooped in and bought out a swath of know eSports players for a league that had no merit regarding actual competition the following around many of those who jump ship for a pay day would shrivel just as it has for former PGA top names who sold out. No one gets excited for a product where the outcome just doesn't matter unless they really like the people involved. There's little to cheer for with LIV when the players are only there for the money and an even easier schedule, as though the PGA Tour was some kind of horror show of slave labor and oppression.

[bajadock]

Sub Par Golf(Colt Knost) podcast with interview of Carlos Ortiz, now with LIV golf provides a different perspective on LIV.  I'm not a LIV fan nor an enemy.  Ortiz talks LIV, lifestyle, family and possible future changes in the golf world.

 

Carlos Ortiz Interview

[Louis_Posture]

1 hour ago, pingbling23 said:

What?  lol. Have you ever watched a golf tournament with tiger in it?

Yes, for the past 25 years I watched Tiger just about every time his game was televised. Before that I went to the Stanford University golf course to watch him play there , and when he was 16 years old I caddied for a pro in his foursome during a 36-hole US Open Sectional qualifying tournament. But these days he is semi-retired and his game may not be good enough to make 36-hole cuts. So I expect that unless Tiger is shooting good scores fans will not tune in to watch him and, or the cameras will be focused on the players who are contending to win the tournament.

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, Mcfly said:

Back in the 1960s (yes, I'm old enough to remember) there was no shortage of sports purists saying "those second rate players who are playing in the AFL (American Football League) will never be worthy of playing real football against the National Football League.   Then one day...

LIV could have easily designed itself to get OWGR points and have its players competing in the most important golf events of the year if it weren't helmed by the biggest ego in golf. The bad blood aside, the erosion of the professional game aside, the big names who defected could have been right there playing against top PGA Tour players and the best Ams in the world had Norman had more sense than hubris.

 

This is not some underdog tale; this is a case of arrogance biting everyone who signed on the line. Phil mocked the Tour, Rahm deceived it, and they and every one else bought in knowing it meant they only get access if they qualify for it as before, which many of them simply do not. Not going to get me feeling sorry for sell outs who ignored the bold type, 44 font print right in front of them regarding what their greed would cost them.

[Shriner]

8 hours ago, widow-maker said:

No, it's not better.  I'm watching less PGA Tour golf and no LIV at all.  It's now down to watching the Majors and that's about it.  I don't know how that grows golf but that's what they want you to believe.  They've made it about the dollars and not about the competition.  

 

Even if money were the major factor in their playing, we at least had the illusion that the competition was what drove the best players.  Now we know that's not true in any sense and it's sobering.  I would have never thought that Jon Rahm would run away from the competition, but here we are.  It's just about the money and the Saudi's will spend whatever it takes.  Driving me away from it instead of toward it. 

 

Just a perfect post, really sums up what is actually happening.  Look no further than the NBA which is now struggling and trying to create in season tournaments, new rules, etc.  For those who don't know, players were basically taking rest days while under contract for $40million plus per year.  Once fans dont believe the players are in it for the competition, viewing sports loses its luster.  Fortunately golf is the one major sport that the majority of us (without health issues) can play our entire lives, thereby still enjoying the game without watching professional sports leagues.  

[Dicka]

15 hours ago, Golfinfloridaafter40 said:

The fact is, LIV keeps gaining market-share and eyeballs each tournament that passes. 

 

When you're starting off such a low base, that's not a particularly difficult thing to achieve. These "gains" you mention are horribly small given the investment required to achiieve them. 

[Holy Moses]

10 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

I believe the PGA Tour can operate just fine on a smaller financial scale. For example, if more current big name players leave the PGA Tour , the Tour's corporate sponsors will pay less money to sponsor a Tour event, and prize money for each event will decrease.

Depends how many big name players do. There’s only so many people tune in for and you need the majority of them.

[Konklifer]

I watched the US Open bowling finals. Much more compelling than the Mayakoba. 

[Holy Moses]

4 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

Me thinks they are fudging the numbers.  How does a replay of last years tournament get more views then tigers hero event?  Tiger brings the viewers right?

I’m just going to repost that a replay of the Pebble Beach Pro-Am did 3x what a live LIV season-kickoff event did. That’s unconscionably bad.

Edited February 7 by Holy Moses

[pingbling23]

1 hour ago, Louis_Posture said:

Yes, for the past 25 years I watched Tiger just about every time his game was televised. Before that I went to the Stanford University golf course to watch him play there , and when he was 16 years old I caddied for a pro in his foursome during a 36-hole US Open Sectional qualifying tournament. But these days he is semi-retired and his game may not be good enough to make 36-hole cuts. So I expect that unless Tiger is shooting good scores fans will not tune in to watch him and, or the cameras will be focused on the players who are contending to win the tournament.

If you watched tournaments like you profess, you would see they show every shot and slow limp regardless of what he’s shooting.

[pingbling23]

41 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

I’m just going to repost that a replay of the Pebble Beach Pro-Am did 3x what a live LIV season-kickoff event did. That’s unconscionably bad.

Yeah it’s bad.  The demographic watching probably didn’t even realize it was from last year.

[bekgolf]

13 minutes ago, pingbling23 said:

Yeah it’s bad.  The demographic watching probably didn’t even realize it was from last year.

 

It was from day 3 on Saturday.  I started to watch and realized it was the same footage as the day before.