LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Pat du Golf]

I told you so....!! 

- 4 big names jump at the end of the season.

- JM out

- Adidas buy 1 or 2 teams.

- Fox and Liv sign a deal.

- Majors stay neutral (Switzerland like)

_ PGA sponsors start canceling contract

_ LIV PGA merger talks resume

 

I told you so

 

Fun times 

 

3 hours ago, puttfordoux said:

If the PGA Tour wasn't concerned, why are they pulling Tiger in to rally the troops, so to speak? The tour may not be losing talent, but they are losing star power, and Tiger understands that, being the biggest star of the game. Casual fans do follow the players more than the golf, which professional golf certainly goes after for a potential new market.

100% correct. 

PGA players are not trusting each other. Most PGA agents have called LIV to cut a deal but LIV people are vetting these requests are picking who they want....don't pay attention to current barkers on the PGA tour, their agents have called GN....

Fun times 

[SilverBullets]

1 hour ago, pearcebarr said:

I think the way things are heading, LIV is going to have to try and come up with its own majors - at least for the time being. They've already got the Doral tournament for a trillion dollars or whatever, which can be a major for them. As far as the Masters goes, I have a theory that the Memorial could jump ship from the PGA Tour and be viewed as Liv's Masters. We know that Jack is sympathetic to Liv, and the whole point of the Memorial was to be a quasi-competitor to the Masters. It is no where near the same level of the Masters, but I could see them making that move.  

According to Norman, who also called Jack a hypocrite, Jack was sympathetic to the LIV tour early on.  Jack claims he took a meeting about LIV solely as a courtesy because Nicklaus Designs is building a course in SA.  However Jack said his allegiance lies with the PGA and it will remain there.  He helped found it as it is today.  

 

I don't think theres any chance the Memorial becomes a LIV major unless the PGA Tour folds.  

[hackeraz]

If they were to boycott the majors to force a hand then my only hope would be for the PGAT to implode. Boycotts and walk outs have no place in sports as far as I'm concerned. 

[woodriff]

15 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

Reed genuinely hates the PGA Tour, almost as much as Phil. We all know the “Reed” twitter account has made that clear. Yeah Patrick likes the money, but I think saying goodbye to the PGA Tour was a strong side benefit.

I recall an article from an insider that the biggest headaches for the PGA were Reed, and DeChambeau. Reed being #1. I’m not sure when the rift started, but I believe that social media was certainly a part. Reed always walked the line on ruling, treatment of volunteers and such. BD was not a huge problem and manageable, but Team Reed was a different animal. 
Those of us in mid management can attest. I recall heading into work saying to myself, “what the heck will **** do today”. 

[Thayneil]

14 hours ago, khalespace said:

Just one more Asian Tour tournament and he won't have to play 3 majors. More time with family. P Reed present at the Asian Tour allows them to suck dry his ranking points and move from something like 700 to 680.

Asian Tour players pretty good especially in the  sweaty conditions

 

Reid not coming and scaring many  players  that's for sure

 

 

[Thayneil]

2 hours ago, pearcebarr said:

I think the way things are heading, LIV is going to have to try and come up with its own majors - at least for the time being. They've already got the Doral tournament for a trillion dollars or whatever, which can be a major for them. As far as the Masters goes, I have a theory that the Memorial could jump ship from the PGA Tour and be viewed as Liv's Masters. We know that Jack is sympathetic to Liv, and the whole point of the Memorial was to be a quasi-competitor to the Masters. It is no where near the same level of the Masters, but I could see them making that move.  

Jack sold  out  so not sure what e still controls

 

may have included Muirfield  I do not know

 

 

[pearcebarr]

1 hour ago, mitchl said:

what?   Where have you seen that Jack is sympathetic to LIV?   
he turned down a quarter billion dollars to lead it.

 

and Jack, 6 times Masters winner, would make the Memorial the quasi Masters.   This is also the same Jack that idolizes Bobby Jones.   
 

yeah, Jack might do that on Bizzaro Earth.

Jack turned it down because he got sued by his own company for "repeated acts in bad faith against the best interests of the Company, including acts to intentionally and maliciously undermine the company". 

 

I don't think he specifically would want to undermine or replace the Masters, but he has always wanted the Memorial to be just as big. 

[CasualLie]

2 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

 

If the backers of LIV are really serious about staying in golf, as i mentioned earlier they just need to schedule a massive , biggest ever purse at a place like Doral the week of the Masters. And say, Tradition or a 3M cheque? Take your pick. We'll throw in a champions dinner if you want. This is not that crazy a scenario

 

And tickets will still be $9, 50 people will stream it on YouTube, and Pat Perez and Phil battle it out for DFL while pretending to care about breaking 80.  Good stuff!

 

 

[dfeldss]

10 hours ago, beluga99 said:

Going to throw it out there that Jay Monahan "retires to spend more time with his family" in the coming weeks.  Also looking forward to the outcomes of the anti-trust trial, albeit a little down the track.  I do chuckle when Davis Love III and Billy Horschel keep doubling down, but it's their prerogative and adds spice to the current landscape.

 

I'm curious how the Majors can ban players when they're not part of the PGA, and why the players would boycott them.  Cutting off their nose to spite their face.  Just like the PGA seem to be doing.  A player's window to win Majors is small, not sure sitting them out because of bitterness towards LIV is the way forward.

 

My hope if for a more collaborative approach, so that both can co-exist and we get to see the best golfers play.  Like the initial reactions to the light bulb, the automobile and the airplane, LIV has been widely poo-pooed.  I have a feeling like the afore mentioned inventions they're not going away.  Time will tell.

 

Bigger picture, if the PGA bans players, will more of the average sporting public watch?  If the Majors ban players, many of whom past winners, will more people watch and attend?  Will sponsors and tournaments want to pay the same tomorrow if many of the most recognizable names to the general golf public are not playing?  Jay Monahan is potentially the steward of a diminishing product, and maybe his hubris will be his downfall.  I have the popcorn at the ready!

 

I don't disagree with some of your points, but people wondering why the PGAT won't collaborate baffle me.

 

Collaboration with LIV effectively turns the PGAT into a LIV feeder series. There is zero reason for the PGAT to concede anything to LIV unless they think the whole organization is going under or something monumental like that. 

 

And acting like GN has or had any intentions of PGAT collaboration is absurd. The only reason he'd want to collaborate with the tour is because he knows it kills the tour.

[mikewohlwend]

On 8/14/2022 at 8:03 PM, Forged4ever said:

Regardless of where he plants the peg next year, this guy is as Classy as they come and if I was commissioner, I'd give him a "Commissioner's Exemption" for as long as he stayed within the top 175 earnings wise. 
 

This scene is after a QUINTUPLE BOGIE on 18, basically ending his Play-Off hopes and any chance of keeping his card and you would never ever know it by his actions!!!
 

With a TBaG hat to boot, lol, which I know of three Pros off the top of my head that will only sign THEIR sponsors' gear, no others!!

 

Madison spoke of what gems he and Jordan were when they were in the Burgh in '16 when no one asked them to do a thing, there were no cameras around, and half of her kids didn't even know who Jordan was, though every child, 4 boys and two girls, ages 8-10yo, knew Rickie, lol. He was Playin with them aas though they were his own. 
 

If he leaves, I hope that they pay💰💰 him well, cuz unlike some of the others, he deserves EVERY dime!!

 

Have a Great Week My Friends👊
RP

 

Rickie plays a TM ball.  So they are a sponsor of his.

 

 

14 hours ago, mitchl said:

 

I just wonder how happy everyone is over there.  Phil looks like he is miserable.
Perez strutting like a peacock like he belongs on the same jet with some of these guys?
Does Brooks get along with anyone?   Now he's in a small group with guys who he has had trouble with before-  Bryson, DJ, and PReed.    (not sure how much he and DJ didn't get along really, but with PReed, he flat out called him a cheater multiple times)

 

DJ is one of the few who really meant that he wanted to play less, and within a month of him saying that, he's committed to 14 events next year, as well as the "expect they will play a number of events on the Asian Tour" is that guess that they might, or an expectation that they will.     DJ was really close to just playing 15 PGA events a year, and could be all fairly close to him.

You've got some good guys in LIV - Graeme and Louis and Henrik, probably Ancer - but it seems like the group that has issues playing well with others is larger.   

 

I tried looking up what Perez signed for.  Listened to an older Golf Subpar podcast with him on it yesterday and he said it would have to be a fairly large amount.

[smashdn]

15 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

The LIV Boston tickets are now selling for $9 🤣

 

I think tournament golf fans are voting with their wallets and it’s clear these events are miles from being real tournaments much less major quality testing grounds. 

 

The liv is playing exhibitions. There’s a big disconnect with 54 guys playing each other week in and week out in 54 hole, no cut, events. As Rahmbo said, “that’s not a golf tournament”

 

I can see the majors and pga tour going their way. And liv going the other way. 
 

The liv can keep picking off guys but the global pipeline of young talent flows into the pga tour first. And there’s plenty of hungry golfers looking for a card and opportunity to make 15-20MM a year (with the bigger purses and new events) and another 10-50MM in endorsements if they really rock. 
 

The majors shouldn’t support liv players, their partnership with the pga/euro tour goes back for many decades and the liv is actively hurting these tours. 
 

 

As far as liv, So far demand for these liv events couldn’t be lower. Pretty sad statement on how much weight BK, DJ, Bryson, etc actually pull with golf fans. 
 

 

 

Competition from LIV is actively hurting the tours.  

 

Just food for discussion, is the PGAT syphoning off the best of the best from the Euro Tour (DP) hurting it?

[One Putter]

2 hours ago, Pat du Golf said:

I told you so....!! 

- 4 big names jump at the end of the season.

- JM out

- Adidas buy 1 or 2 teams.

- Fox and Liv sign a deal.

- Majors stay neutral (Switzerland like)

_ PGA sponsors start canceling contract

_ LIV PGA merger talks resume

 

I told you so

 

Fun times 

 

100% correct. 

PGA players are not trusting each other. Most PGA agents have called LIV to cut a deal but LIV people are vetting these requests are picking who they want....don't pay attention to current barkers on the PGA tour, their agents have called GN....

Fun times 

Literally none of those things have happened.

[johnseg]

4 hours ago, iBanesto said:

 

Oosthuizen in 2021:

 

- T6 WGC

- T8 Valspar

- T2 PGA Championship

- 2nd US Open

- T3 Open Championship

- T2 3M Open

- 5 other top 25 finishes

- Plus no missed cuts in 19 events played.

 

So it is not unfathomable he was one of the best 10 players in the world. He could have won 3 majors that year.

 

Not really sure why you are saying he doesn't deserve a top 10 ranking based on his performances.

The guy has one PGA Tour win and a total of 9 on what is considered the PGA and Euro tours. He turned pro in 2002 and hasn't won since 2018. I don't care how many top tens or runner-ups he has had during his career.

 

When I see his name on a tee sheet I don't think he has to be one of the favorites.

[ahenderX]

4 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

PGA players boycotting the majors would be IMO, one of the dumbest things they can do and just speed up the process of "ruining" pro golf the way everyone is worried about.

 

This is just my opinion of course, but golf is run by crusty old dudes who don't understand Gen Z or younger millennials very well. They are not as moved by "tradition" or "loyalty" or "history", this is a generation that grew up where every time a share price goes down 800 people get laid off. They will work 2x-3x as many jobs in their lifetimes as 50yr olds now did, and many of them are told (and believe) that our traditions and values are the reason for this. In some cases it's true. This is before you get into the basics that this meeting is about telling 23yr olds you need to destroy a company that wants to pay them more money, to protect the legacies of 50-60yr olds...Will that resonate like they want it to? I'm not so sure

 

I'm sure the Masters is important to them but 100M guaranteed? 50M guaranteed when your career PGA earnings are 8M....You're still counting on someone turning that down for tradition.

 

If the backers of LIV are really serious about staying in golf, as i mentioned earlier they just need to schedule a massive , biggest ever purse at a place like Doral the week of the Masters. And say, Tradition or a 3M cheque? Take your pick. We'll throw in a champions dinner if you want. This is not that crazy a scenario

Are the younger people you refer to aspiring PGA Tour golfers? If they are, they do understand golf tradition and history. My daughter is a Gen Z. In no way does she fit your narrative. When faced with a monarchy-funded rival league, the Tour’s primary selling point is tradition and history, as compared to a league that keeps reminding me of the Ice Capades. It may be exciting to some, but overall, it’s a meaningless exhibition. Gigantic purses do not make it more exciting.

Edited August 16, 2022 by ahenderX

[mitchl]

2 hours ago, SilverBullets said:

According to Norman, who also called Jack a hypocrite, Jack was sympathetic to the LIV tour early on.  Jack claims he took a meeting about LIV solely as a courtesy because Nicklaus Designs is building a course in SA.  However Jack said his allegiance lies with the PGA and it will remain there.  He helped found it as it is today.  

 

I don't think theres any chance the Memorial becomes a LIV major unless the PGA Tour folds.  

 

“According to Norman”

 

we should have a top ten list on the according to Normans.   You can start it with his advice to players about whether the Tour can suspend/ban them from the Tour.

 

and you also have the roster is set for 2023.  No more room.

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Competition from LIV is actively hurting the tours.  

 

Just food for discussion, is the PGAT syphoning off the best of the best from the Euro Tour (DP) hurting it?

 

Yes and now liv is a threat to the pga tour/dp tour.

 

The difference is that liv is a threat to the majors. 
 

As @MtlJeffsaid, if the liv players lose owgr to qualify, what’s to say liv won’t just go and have its own 50MM majors?

 

Thats why I think the best thing is for the majors to disqualify liv players and stick with the pga tour.

 

Liv may have a couple billion to pick off guys who have already won. 
 

But there’s a multibillion dollar infrastructure of junior golf, college golf, to just keep pipelining great talent into the pga tour. 
 

While they may not get 100MM payoffs. Plenty of hungry kids who would be happy making 15-25MM a year in purses and 10s of millions more in endorsements. 
 

Let’s see liv even prove the product has any demand. 
 

So far they signed the second greatest player of the 2000 era, BK, DJ, PR, and half the rider cup stars

 

And tickets are selling for

 

$1

 

 

[subrew]

For those interested in how other series are dealing with the Saudis, the Aramco Team Series event in Spain is this weekend.  Sanctioned by the Ladies European Tour (LET), and points earned for Solheim Cup and the year-end LET points rankings.

 

Quote

The Aramco Team Series is the first team event series of its kind on any professional tour. Taking place across three continents, the tournaments will see the world’s best players team up with amateur golfers to compete for a $1m prize funds.

 

Using a unique draft system, team captains will pick one pro teammate, before being allocated a third via a random draw. Completing each team will be one amateur golfer. As well as competing for the team trophy, the professionals will also vie for an individual title, offering Rolex Rankings and Solheim Cup ranking points, and will be part of the Race to Costa del Sol Official Rankings.

 

https://aramcoteamseries.com/en-us/the-series/

 

Second year for the series, five events in Bangkok, London, Sotogrande, New York, Jeddha.  36 teams, three pros one amateur per team.  

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by subrew

[MtlJeff]

1 hour ago, ahenderX said:

Are the younger people you refer to aspiring PGA Tour golfers? If they are, they do understand golf tradition and history. My daughter is a Gen Z. In no way does she fit your narrative. When faced with a monarchy-funded rival league, the Tour’s primary selling point is tradition and history, as compared to a league that keeps reminding me of the Ice Capades. It may be exciting to some, but overall, it’s a meaningless exhibition. Gigantic purses do not make it more exciting.

 

Aspiring tour golfers are still people at the end of the day. LIV is a new company trying to pay them more. I'm sure they care about playing in the Masters, US open etc...."some" history yes is important, i'm sure these guys grew up wanting to play the Masters

 

But if the Masters bans LIV golfers or the PGA threatens to boycott to get them banned. Do 23-24yr olds on the PGA tour look at this like "Wow awesome, this other tour that could've doubled my earnings now might not exist because of my employer---so i have to choose between earning less or playing in this tournament i wanted to play in because of them....umm, sweet?"

 

I'd guess while they won't say so publically, very few of the tour guys under say, 35....want LIV to go away. And i would guess if push comes to shove, they would abandon the majors for way more money. Maybe i'm wrong

 

 

 

 

[MtlJeff]

2 hours ago, CasualLie said:

 

And tickets will still be $9, 50 people will stream it on YouTube, and Pat Perez and Phil battle it out for DFL while pretending to care about breaking 80.  Good stuff!

 

 

 

I imagine the goal of getting better players is that it will improve views and increase ticket prices.

 

BTW how normal is it to have really discounted ticket prices for any kind of event? I'm not really an expert in this. I watched a few LIV events, there seem to be fans there. The tickets online seems to be asking for higher prices and some i guess get blown out at the end. Not sure how normal this is. Like could you get Rocket mortgage tickets last minute for cheap? I don't really know

 

I feel like the "Tickets are going for 9$, everyone hates LIV!" stories are being encouraged/driven by the consulting firms the PGA tour hired, i'd bet on that, though. I've never seen so much attention paid to how much tickets are going for on stubhub or whatever at the last minute. Seems odd that it's always pointed out

 

Anyway, i'd rather they have just collaberated. Tour couldn't fit it in like 7-8 LIV events....making us watch some tournament where the highest ranked player is 37th was that important to them...

[mikewohlwend]

4 hours ago, Pat du Golf said:

I told you so....!! 

- 4 big names jump at the end of the season.

- JM out

- Adidas buy 1 or 2 teams.

- Fox and Liv sign a deal.

- Majors stay neutral (Switzerland like)

_ PGA sponsors start canceling contract

_ LIV PGA merger talks resume

 

I told you so

 

Fun times 

 

100% correct. 

PGA players are not trusting each other. Most PGA agents have called LIV to cut a deal but LIV people are vetting these requests are picking who they want....don't pay attention to current barkers on the PGA tour, their agents have called GN....

Fun times 

 

1 hour ago, One Putter said:

Literally none of those things have happened.

 

I was trying to figure out if they were a time traveler and knew something no one else does.

[idrive]

2 hours ago, mikewohlwend said:

 

I tried looking up what Perez signed for.  Listened to an older Golf Subpar podcast with him on it yesterday and he said it would have to be a fairly large amount.

 

If the reports were correct and if I remember correctly, PP signed for 10mil$

[Holy Moses]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Competition from LIV is actively hurting the tours.  

 

Just food for discussion, is the PGAT syphoning off the best of the best from the Euro Tour (DP) hurting it?

As of now, LIV has 2 of the top 20. One great player in his 20s.

[NMBob]

1 hour ago, mitchl said:

 

“According to Norman”

 

we should have a top ten list on the according to Normans.   You can start it with his advice to players about whether the Tour can suspend/ban them from the Tour.

 

and you also have the roster is set for 2023.  No more room.

 

at some point you gotta wonder how much players will believe things they are told by Norman.  On the other hand, doesn't seem like DJ or Bryson have run into any surprises in their decisions...

[Forged4ever]

3 hours ago, mikewohlwend said:

 

Rickie plays a TM ball.  So they are a sponsor of his.

Thanks for the head's up, didn't know that👊
 

Cheers🍻

RP

[CasualLie]

1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I imagine the goal of getting better players is that it will improve views and increase ticket prices.

 

BTW how normal is it to have really discounted ticket prices for any kind of event? I'm not really an expert in this. I watched a few LIV events, there seem to be fans there. The tickets online seems to be asking for higher prices and some i guess get blown out at the end. Not sure how normal this is. Like could you get Rocket mortgage tickets last minute for cheap? I don't really know

 

I feel like the "Tickets are going for 9$, everyone hates LIV!" stories are being encouraged/driven by the consulting firms the PGA tour hired, i'd bet on that, though. I've never seen so much attention paid to how much tickets are going for on stubhub or whatever at the last minute. Seems odd that it's always pointed out

 

Anyway, i'd rather they have just collaberated. Tour couldn't fit it in like 7-8 LIV events....making us watch some tournament where the highest ranked player is 37th was that important to them...

 

 

Pretty much any event with discounted tickets means no one wants to go; or at least there are a lot more "seats" available than interested parties.  The deeper the discount, the worse it is.  

 

At some point the negotiation will happen.  History shows us you cannot have two leagues splitting up the best players without risking losing fans entirety.  The question is just how much more destroying of golf does there have to be before the "kumbaya"? 2 years?  More?

 

At this point all we have is the "hate" driven by one head in the cloud leader, one egomaniac, and a media that is just loving the war.  It's all so ridiculous.

 

 

[DrivingChamp]

 

[mitchl]

1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

Anyway, i'd rather they have just collaberated. Tour couldn't fit it in like 7-8 LIV events....making us watch some tournament where the highest ranked player is 37th was that important to them...

 

If they wanted to collaborate, then don’t make the commissioner/CEO a guy who wants to destroy the PGA and has been harboring a 30 year old grudge.   

Also things if you’re interested in collaboration - don’t recruit players in the locker rooms.

Lastly, is someone forcing you to watch the 3M or John Deere?  Is it like that scene in Clockwork Orange?  Sounds horrible.
But if the Tour signed up to have these 8 big dollar tournaments, then if it was like WGC, then those count as part of the 15, so now the players are down to just playing 7 regular PGA events.    I guess you could make it so the 15 events doesn’t count that but then you will have players whining about 15 PGA + 4 majors + 3 Playoff, + 8 LIV events.   

 

And does LIV still sign those guys under contract so they don’t have any choice but to go to all LIV events?
 

[NoFancyUsername.]

1 hour ago, NMBob said:

 

at some point you gotta wonder how much players will believe things they are told by Norman.  On the other hand, doesn't seem like DJ or Bryson have run into any surprises in their decisions...

Remove GN from the equation...players have listened to their managers. Those managers contacted said GN. The money was too good. That's about the only influence GN had on the players.. the $$$. Furthermore, more than 40 players in the top 100 wanted in, too late for now, but when the 72 hole tournaments start, 2024, that prize money will drag plenty to LIV. Jay should of played his cards differently. 

[mhudson111]

20 minutes ago, DrivingChamp said:

 

Wow!!! Rickie let Tiger drive! 😳 

 

😂

[Wasted_Talent]

They put Rickie and Tiger in a Nissan.  They couldn’t get a driver?