LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[aus10KC]

What are everyone's favorite LIV moments so far?

 

It's a toss up for me, Pat Perez singing we are the champions over Brooks while on that fancy plane. And "Do it for the Saudi Royal Family" comment from the crowd to Phil.

 

 

[TroyB123]

2 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

 

it seems to be a bit of a loss leader strategy as you say. Overpay people to get it started and then see where everything stands 3-4 years from now. If ratings and sponsorships are bad, they probably don't want to burn money forever. I kinda wonder if the Cam's and others believe that too so there is a bit of a gold rush to get the 100M-200M contracts.

 

One thing that i've always found a bit funny is the idea that these guys business model is to steal from other tours and that this is awful. I mean, it 100% is right now--I don't disagree with that statement at all, it's what they are doing.

 

I just think, look at LinkedIn. like 95% of jobs require market experience. Where do these companies think people are getting it? Almost the entire moderate to high paying marketplace exists based on taking talent from elsewhere. I've had 2-3 HR headhunters reach out to me in the past month. They know i have a job. When i went to my current job i had 10+ years experience in the same field with someone else. Realistically, almost all of us will do what the LIV guys did at some point (leave a job for a different one that pays more)

If this is just a job to them, then who would want to watch them play?    If some company wants to pay me more for my IT skills, then they are paying because I'll provide value to them in their business.    I don't have to worry about whether people are going to want to pay to watch me type on my keyboard.   The PGA tour for years has brought in enough tv viewers and tournament attendees to pay their players well.   liv wants to take them out of the competition and tournament drama that attracts viewers to put them in an all-star exhibition league that will exist as long as some Saudi princes continue to want to throw their money away for whatever motivation.

 

Pro sports only exists as a lucrative business because fans want to watch.    Team sports count on loyalty to local teams to generate and keep fans watching and coming to games.   PGA tour golf is popular because of the drama of the competition to win and qualify for tournaments.  If you take that aspect away, you have a pretty limited audience that wants to watch Phil hit crazy flop shots, Bubba hit banana shots, and Reed use a foot wedge.   If everyone sees it as just a job to them and they're getting their guaranteed money, then no one will watch, and by leaving they've helped to take down the industry of pro golf.

[Pat du Golf]

I told you so.

Fun times!!

 

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/liv-golf-set-to-announce-five-new-signings

[Dutch1008]

3 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

If someone went through the LIV contracts, and these were the worst things they could find, then these are probably the least restrictive sports contracts in history.

 

Also, the PGAT approves logos as well.

Requiring the players to wear LIV apparel is a huge misstep. Do you think Nike is going to keep paying Tiger/Rory $20M+ / yr if they aren't covered head to toe in Nike gear? Do you think Speith keeps $10M+ / yr from Under Armour if he's not sporting their hat/shirts/pants every tournament? Is Schauffele going to walk away from Adidas? Adam Scott from Uniqlo? That is an enormous restriction.   

 

I find it somewhat hilarious and ironic that Phil Mickelson of all people participated in drafting these agreements. Besides Tiger, nobody has benefitted more from corporate sponsorship than Phil Mickelson, now he's going to let MBS dictate what companies he can and can't work with? His entire grip with the PGAT was that they limited his ability to make money off his likeness and now he'd handing over prime marketing real estate to LIV apparel. 

 

Based on the WSJ article and LIV's counsel comments at the TRO, it seems pretty clear that these "signing bonus" were simply a calculation of each individuals potential earnings (tournament winnings plus sponsorship $'s) discounted to a present value. The fact that some if not all of these "signing bonuses" are offset by tournament winnings makes it even funnier. 

 

Do you have a successful golf career but need cash now?

 

Call JGWentworth Greg Norman! 877-CASHNOW!   

[TM4me]

"The contract is structured so that players are defined as independent contractors, but it does state that the players much participate in all of LIV events, without the option to pick and choose an individual schedule. The contract also limited players' media rights, an interesting fact given that one of Mickelson’s chief complaints with the PGA Tour and one of the reasons he’d cited for considering joining LIV Golf was because of the tour’s restrictions on players’ media rights."

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-contract-specifics-wall-street-journal-report

[MtlJeff]

2 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

If this is just a job to them, then who would want to watch them play?    If some company wants to pay me more for my IT skills, then they are paying because I'll provide value to them in their business.    I don't have to worry about whether people are going to want to pay to watch me type on my keyboard.   The PGA tour for years has brought in enough tv viewers and tournament attendees to pay their players well.   liv wants to take them out of the competition and tournament drama that attracts viewers to put them in an all-star exhibition league that will exist as long as some Saudi princes continue to want to throw their money away for whatever motivation.

 

Pro sports only exists as a lucrative business because fans want to watch.    Team sports count on loyalty to local teams to generate and keep fans watching and coming to games.   PGA tour golf is popular because of the drama of the competition to win and qualify for tournaments.  If you take that aspect away, you have a pretty limited audience that wants to watch Phil hit crazy flop shots, Bubba hit banana shots, and Reed use a foot wedge.   If everyone sees it as just a job to them and they're getting their guaranteed money, then no one will watch, and by leaving they've helped to take down the industry of pro golf.

 

We are not supposed to discuss the funding of LIV anymore here just FYI

 

I don't think LIV has a chance to succeed if it continues to be just an exhibition in it's current form. I agree with you on that, but i think they are putting this together on the fly.

 

I'd be shocked if they didn't introduce some sort of playoff or internal ranking system very shortly. If they don't they are idiots

[Mtn_Mikey]

A few of the highlights from today's WSJ article:

 

• A $ 1 million dollar bonus for winning a major
• Refrain from interviews without LIV approval
• Players are supposed to wear LIV apparel, even in non-LIV events
• Assist in recruiting other players to LIV when requests
• Media rights in LIV event are retained by LIV
• Need approval for branded logos
• Must play all 14 LIV events
• May play non-LIV events if they don't conflict with LIV events

As the Journal says this was a draft contract they reviewed and may or may not mirror a specific player contract.

It will be interesting to see the contracts are unsealed as the Tour requested in the prior hearing.

[Wasted_Talent]

Sounds like they are treated as employees, but taxed as independent contractors.

[Purple Toupee]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

Requiring the players to wear LIV apparel is a huge misstep. Do you think Nike is going to keep paying Tiger/Rory $20M+ / yr if they aren't covered head to toe in Nike gear? Do you think Speith keeps $10M+ / yr from Under Armour if he's not sporting their hat/shirts/pants every tournament? Is Schauffele going to walk away from Adidas? Adam Scott from Uniqlo? That is an enormous restriction.   

 

I find it somewhat hilarious and ironic that Phil Mickelson of all people participated in drafting these agreements. Besides Tiger, nobody has benefitted more from corporate sponsorship than Phil Mickelson, now he's going to let MBS dictate what companies he can and can't work with? His entire grip with the PGAT was that they limited his ability to make money off his likeness and now he'd handing over prime marketing real estate to LIV apparel. 

 

Based on the WSJ article and LIV's counsel comments at the TRO, it seems pretty clear that these "signing bonus" were simply a calculation of each individuals potential earnings (tournament winnings plus sponsorship $'s) discounted to a present value. The fact that some if not all of these "signing bonuses" are offset by tournament winnings makes it even funnier. 

 

Do you have a successful golf career but need cash now?

 

Call JGWentworth Greg Norman! 877-CASHNOW!   

If you read the WSJ article, they want players to wear LIV Golf branding, not that LIV has started an apparel company.  And if LIV signs Tiger or Rory, they’re going to give them anything they want, they won’t have to have that in their contract.

 

It also says players give up their media rights for all LIV events.  Phil was upset because you have to sign away all of your media rights to play on the PGAT, not just for events you play in.  There’s no indication in that article that that’s the case with LIV.

 

I do think LIV needs to address the issue of winnings counting against their signing bonuses.  If that’s true that’s pretty bad.

[mitchl]

3 hours ago, Pat du Golf said:

I told you so.

Fun times!!

 

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/liv-golf-set-to-announce-five-new-signings

 

You told us what?  That there would be news stories about rumors of things which actually haven’t happened yet?  

I don’t think you broke any news there.    When someone actually goes to LIV and makes an announcement, please let us know.  

[hackeraz]

1 hour ago, Purple Toupee said:

If you read the WSJ article, they want players to wear LIV Golf branding, not that LIV has started an apparel company.  And if LIV signs Tiger or Rory, they’re going to give them anything they want, they won’t have to have that in their contract.

 

It also says players give up their media rights for all LIV events.  Phil was upset because you have to sign away all of your media rights to play on the PGAT, not just for events you play in.  There’s no indication in that article that that’s the case with LIV.

 

I do think LIV needs to address the issue of winnings counting against their signing bonuses.  If that’s true that’s pretty bad.

They did immediately after the hearing and said that's incorrect, they do not count against bonuses. Guess that just leaves us wondering who to believe. 

[Purple Toupee]

28 minutes ago, hackeraz said:

They did immediately after the hearing and said that's incorrect, they do not count against bonuses. Guess that just leaves us wondering who to believe. 

I know, but it was kind of wish washy.  I would like them to put out a statement that clears up what the lawyers said in court versus what players are agreeing to.  Maybe it’s in some contracts but not all, I don’t know, I just think they need to settle it once and for all.

[subrew]

4 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

Requiring the players to wear LIV apparel is a huge misstep. Do you think Nike is going to keep paying Tiger/Rory $20M+ / yr if they aren't covered head to toe in Nike gear? Do you think Speith keeps $10M+ / yr from Under Armour if he's not sporting their hat/shirts/pants every tournament? Is Schauffele going to walk away from Adidas? Adam Scott from Uniqlo? That is an enormous restriction.   

 

 

 

If you watched any of the LIV coverage, you would see most were covered head to toe in their respective brands.  Brooks was Nike hat, shirt, etc.  Stensen was his Hugo Boss and Callaway gear.  DJ with Adidas and Taylormade.  Bryson had on his Puma stuff.  

 

Patrick Reed had the most LIV Golf logos, but even some of it was cross branded with Grindworks logos.  

 

The same logos and gear that the PGAT had to approve.

Edited August 18, 2022 by subrew

[mitchl]

49 minutes ago, subrew said:

 

If you watched any of the LIV coverage, you would see most were covered head to toe in their respective brands.  Brooks was Nike hat, shirt, etc.  Stensen was his Hugo Boss and Callaway gear.  DJ with Adidas and Taylormade.  Bryson had on his Puma stuff.  

 

Patrick Reed had the most LIV Golf logos, but even some of it was cross branded with Grindworks logos.  

 

The same logos and gear that the PGAT had to approve.

 

So here is my question about that.   So if the rumors are correct about Adidas buying a team (still seems ridiculous to me)- but they buy Brooks’s team.   Does that mean that Brooks needs to shed his Nike stuff and wears Adidas team gear?

So the Brooks definately will lose sponsorship money.  And I would assume he wears the team gear (which advertises Adidas) and he doesn’t make a cent from that.   

So now, a LIV player cannot 1) make his own schedule, 2) have apparel sponsorships, 3) have media rights to their own image.   
Why did they take that deal again?   Is $125m really a winner for Brooks over 4 years under those conditions?

Lastly - is PGAT approving logos?  Or are they approving size?   Yes, in the court case, they did say they could act if someone was wearing an offensive logo -  but outside of that, is there a limitation?   Has anyone seen John Daly?   He actually has less now than he had 10 years ago, but that’s more likely due to loss of the sponsors and not limits placed by the tour.

[Dutch1008]

3 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

If you read the WSJ article, they want players to wear LIV Golf branding, not that LIV has started an apparel company.  And if LIV signs Tiger or Rory, they’re going to give them anything they want, they won’t have to have that in their contract.

 

1 hour ago, subrew said:

If you watched any of the LIV coverage, you would see most were covered head to toe in their respective brands.  Brooks was Nike hat, shirt, etc.  Stensen was his Hugo Boss and Callaway gear.  DJ with Adidas and Taylormade.  Bryson had on his Puma stuff.  

I haven't watched. Perhaps certain players are getting exemptions. Wouldn't shock me if they're treating every player differently considering the conflicting info on signing bonus vs tournament winnings. Rules and restrictions for Gooch and Swafford, free reign for DJ and Brooksie! Good luck managing 48 contracts without stirring future discord.

 

Regardless, Nike doesn't pay millions to co-brand. I can't remember seeing Tiger, Rory, Brooks, Paul Casey, or Scottie Scheffler ever having another brand stitched to their hats or apparel. Adidas looks more flexible as I've seen Xander and DJ with logos on their shoulder or collar. Looks like UA doesn't allow Speith to put Titleist or anything else on his hat/apparel. Brands pay a premium for exclusivity, sharing space comes at a cost.  

[getitdaily]

A good amount of comments thr last couple.months on how the pgat and liv should work together...compromise.

 

Watching the euro tour this morning and seeing Cabrera-bello and Poulter and I could see LIV and the euro tour collaborating a lot more than pgat and liv. 

 

Euro your needs the cash. Their purses are tiny. They have the scheduling ability. I've long thought the sunshine, Australasian, and euro tours needed some alignment. 

 

I can easily see LIV and the euro tour collaborating on a schedule that has a significant number of events in Australia, South Africa, Europe, and Asia. 

 

The questions basically become

 

1. What does LIV do with their format? (I'd think they capitulate and go 72 holes and bigger fields)

2. What happens to Norman? I'm not sure many people like him. And if the Saudis warm to a euro collaboration then Norman's future would be done

3. What do the Americans do?

4. How many events in America? 

 

I just don't see pgat and Norman resolving anything or the tour being OK with a massive US schedule. But I could see the pga tour schedule shrinking and LIV/Euro having a US swing in the winter.

[idrive]

1 hour ago, subrew said:

 

If you watched any of the LIV coverage   

 

The same logos and gear that the PGAT had to approve.

 

Will never see any of the liv streaming so...

 

Curious how you know the PGA has to approve any brand logos?  As far as I can tell they don't. Use of the PGA logo must be used correctly and approved but not private manufactures logos.

[pingbling23]

6 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

If you read the WSJ article, they want players to wear LIV Golf branding, not that LIV has started an apparel company.  And if LIV signs Tiger or Rory, they’re going to give them anything they want, they won’t have to have that in their contract.

 

It also says players give up their media rights for all LIV events.  Phil was upset because you have to sign away all of your media rights to play on the PGAT, not just for events you play in.  There’s no indication in that article that that’s the case with LIV.

 

I do think LIV needs to address the issue of winnings counting against their signing bonuses.  If that’s true that’s pretty bad.

Yeah, I think everything came to a head when the pga tour was charging Phil a million to play in the match specials.

[bladehunter]

7 hours ago, Gawbage_man said:

Sounds like they are treated as employees, but taxed as independent contractors.

Kind of like used car salesmen….

[bekgolf]

3 hours ago, getitdaily said:

 

 

Euro your needs the cash. Their purses are tiny. They have the scheduling ability. I've long thought the sunshine, Australasian, and euro tours needed some alignment. 

 

I can easily see LIV and the euro tour collaborating on a schedule that has a significant number of events in Australia, South Africa, Europe, and Asia. 

 

 

 

Money for events comes from sponsors.  Sponsors pay more for more viewers and exposure to advertising.  Without an audience there is no need to spend money sponsoring.  It just won't happen.  liv is not something most golfers want to watch.  It's a silly season event but doesn't follow the silly season dates of Thanksgiving to New Years.

 

Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, are you suggesting that the PGA should donate (collaborate) and float the boat of tours that don't have many viewers and as a result don't have large prizes?

[2bGood]

14 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

Also, the PGAT approves logos as well.

The PGAT has no restrictions on what golfers wear outside of events. The restriction during events are very liberal, and some instances are about complying with law (tobacco) or just things bad for the image (porn or LIV golf)

7 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

If you read the WSJ article, they want players to wear LIV Golf branding, not that LIV has started an apparel company.  And if LIV signs Tiger or Rory, they’re going to give them anything they want, they won’t have to have that in their contract.

 

It also says players give up their media rights for all LIV events.  Phil was upset because you have to sign away all of your media rights to play on the PGAT, not just for events you play in.  There’s no indication in that article that that’s the case with LIV.

 

I do think LIV needs to address the issue of winnings counting against their signing bonuses.  If that’s true that’s pretty bad.

 

That model is kind of a shambles. They want team bought by companies promoting themselves, with some guys on contract to promote the team owner, and some able not to?

 

6 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

I know, but it was kind of wish washy.  I would like them to put out a statement that clears up what the lawyers said in court versus what players are agreeing to.  Maybe it’s in some contracts but not all, I don’t know, I just think they need to settle it once and for all.

Why? It is really none of our business what is contract between LIV and any player. 

[PhilsFanDrew]

4 hours ago, getitdaily said:

A good amount of comments thr last couple.months on how the pgat and liv should work together...compromise.

 

Watching the euro tour this morning and seeing Cabrera-bello and Poulter and I could see LIV and the euro tour collaborating a lot more than pgat and liv. 

 

Euro your needs the cash. Their purses are tiny. They have the scheduling ability. I've long thought the sunshine, Australasian, and euro tours needed some alignment. 

 

I can easily see LIV and the euro tour collaborating on a schedule that has a significant number of events in Australia, South Africa, Europe, and Asia. 

 

The questions basically become

 

1. What does LIV do with their format? (I'd think they capitulate and go 72 holes and bigger fields)

2. What happens to Norman? I'm not sure many people like him. And if the Saudis warm to a euro collaboration then Norman's future would be done

3. What do the Americans do?

4. How many events in America? 

 

I just don't see pgat and Norman resolving anything or the tour being OK with a massive US schedule. But I could see the pga tour schedule shrinking and LIV/Euro having a US swing in the winter.

 

 I think Norman is the right guy for the job right now.  You need someone that isn't going to bow to media scrutiny and plow ahead to establish viability.  But I don't think he's a good choice once LIV is established beyond a start up simply because there is too much baggage with Norman and I don't see others being able to negotiate and work with him in good faith because of it.  At that point LIV would be wise to move him to some other role or buy him out entirely and bring in someone with more of a diplomatic reputation.  

[Purple Toupee]

3 hours ago, idrive said:

 

Will never see any of the liv streaming so...

 

Curious how you know the PGA has to approve any brand logos?  As far as I can tell they don't. Use of the PGA logo must be used correctly and approved but not private manufactures logos.

There’s a Player Endorsement Policy they need to follow.  They can’t just put any logo they want on their clothes/bag.

[leezer99]

11 hours ago, mitchl said:

Lastly - is PGAT approving logos?  Or are they approving size?   Yes, in the court case, they did say they could act if someone was wearing an offensive logo -  but outside of that, is there a limitation?   Has anyone seen John Daly?   He actually has less now than he had 10 years ago, but that’s more likely due to loss of the sponsors and not limits placed by the tour.

 

How many UPS logos have you seen since the inception of the FedEx Cup?  Only two players have been grandfathered in, Lee Westwood and Louis Oosthuizen, and that was because they had prior existing relationships.

[leezer99]

15 hours ago, Gawbage_man said:

Sounds like they are treated as employees, but taxed as independent contractors.

 

This is a really interesting statement. Some of the most historic criminals were brought down by the Department of Treasury (IRS) and their criminal investigation unit has a 90%+ conviction rate.  If there's a sniff of impropriety in how these guys are paid you can be sure the lawyers involved will exploit it.  I'm sure the LIV guys are smart enough to have the best business managers and accountants handling their finances but the definition between employee, sub contractor and independent contractor will likely be brought forward if you ask me.

 

NB - I am not insinuating anyone involved with LIV or the PGAT is a criminal. 

[smashdn]

19 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

Requiring the players to wear LIV apparel is a huge misstep.

 

Phil isn't wearing LIV logos.  DJ isn't either.  Only one I can think of is Reed.

 

Are you saying this applies to all players and their previous clothing deals will either be nullified or cannot be renewed going forward?

[MaineMariner]

11 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

Yeah, I think everything came to a head when the pga tour was charging Phil a million to play in the match specials.

 

Wasn't the issue that Phil wanted to use footage from PGA Tour events in the promotional material for the Match and was denied?

[jdl]

14 hours ago, getitdaily said:

A good amount of comments thr last couple.months on how the pgat and liv should work together...compromise.

 

Watching the euro tour this morning and seeing Cabrera-bello and Poulter and I could see LIV and the euro tour collaborating a lot more than pgat and liv. 

 

Euro your needs the cash. Their purses are tiny. They have the scheduling ability. I've long thought the sunshine, Australasian, and euro tours needed some alignment. 

 

I can easily see LIV and the euro tour collaborating on a schedule that has a significant number of events in Australia, South Africa, Europe, and Asia. 

 

The questions basically become

 

1. What does LIV do with their format? (I'd think they capitulate and go 72 holes and bigger fields)

2. What happens to Norman? I'm not sure many people like him. And if the Saudis warm to a euro collaboration then Norman's future would be done

3. What do the Americans do?

4. How many events in America? 

 

I just don't see pgat and Norman resolving anything or the tour being OK with a massive US schedule. But I could see the pga tour schedule shrinking and LIV/Euro having a US swing in the winter.

Given the PGA Tour owns 40% of the DP Tour, this seems unlikely.

 

Using the Asian Tour is a possibility though, could certainly do well in Japan and other markets in that region.

[Fairways_and_Greens]

46 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Phil isn't wearing LIV logos.  DJ isn't either.  Only one I can think of is Reed.

 

Are you saying this applies to all players and their previous clothing deals will either be nullified or cannot be renewed going forward?

How LIV executes the contract today may not represent how LIV executes the contract a year or two from now...

[getitdaily]

25 minutes ago, jdl said:

Given the PGA Tour owns 40% of the DP Tour, this seems unlikely.

 

Using the Asian Tour is a possibility though, could certainly do well in Japan and other markets in that region.

Agree. However, could also see the dp tour getting out of the pgat contractual relationship if LIV aligns better for golf and golfers in Europe...