LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Holy Moses]

2 hours ago, HackerDave said:

What a load.  He could do that by simply joining a club.   Hell, I do that!    He want's the $$$.   The rest is garbage.

Reed genuinely hates the PGA Tour, almost as much as Phil. We all know the “Reed” twitter account has made that clear. Yeah Patrick likes the money, but I think saying goodbye to the PGA Tour was a strong side benefit.

[johnseg]

2 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I think they like being a prestigious event though. As does the USGA and R&A with their flagships. Right now the LIV guys want to play in these events. All of the bullying, threats, hundreds of K put into media campaigns through consultants the PGA has done hasn't stopped a guy like Cam Smith from going who legit could've gotten to #1 in the world last weekend. There will likely be others after him. Because the more Cam Smiths go the more chance you have to sign the next one

 

Eventually the majors can't just ignore that like 30 guys who were in the top 75 in the past 2 years aren't there. As you say, what happens if people don't think these are majors anymore then?

 

Does LIV host like a 50M purse event at Doral the same week as the US Open? Same for week of the Masters....This could happen. I dont think anyone wants this including the organizers of the current majors.

 

Honestly the more guys LIV gets i think the more this "Omerta" between the PGA, USGA, R&A, OGWR etc with start to fracture a bit

I can't imagine the Masters would bat an eye at Norman holding a tournament at the same time. They would say bring it on.

 

Depending wo may or may not jump, I don't see an issue dumping guys that were in the Top 75 over the last two seasons. I look at a guy like Oosthuizen that ended last year ranked 10. Does anyone really believe that he was one of the top 10 players in the world last year? I just don't see it. OWGR's really are about playing pretty mediocre in the right events/fields. Tiger ended 2019 ranked at 6 and was still 41 at the end of 2020 by only gaining 19 points while losing 173. In 2021 Phil gained 120 points by playing 23 events by missing 8 cuts, finishing in the Top 50 6 times, and added the PGA win. That is not the performance of 33rd ranked player in the world.

 

The rankings are what they are. My only point is they are volatile and not necessarily indicative of who the best players are in current day.

 

 

[bscinstnct]

45 minutes ago, jdl said:

 

 

TW be like

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by bscinstnct

[HackerDave]

33 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

Reed genuinely hates the PGA Tour, almost as much as Phil. We all know the “Reed” twitter account has made that clear. Yeah Patrick likes the money, but I think saying goodbye to the PGA Tour was a strong side benefit.

His fellow players aren't going to like him any more over there.   

[MtlJeff]

23 minutes ago, johnseg said:

I can't imagine the Masters would bat an eye at Norman holding a tournament at the same time. They would say bring it on.

 

Depending wo may or may not jump, I don't see an issue dumping guys that were in the Top 75 over the last two seasons. I look at a guy like Oosthuizen that ended last year ranked 10. Does anyone really believe that he was one of the top 10 players in the world last year? I just don't see it. OWGR's really are about playing pretty mediocre in the right events/fields. Tiger ended 2019 ranked at 6 and was still 41 at the end of 2020 by only gaining 19 points while losing 173. In 2021 Phil gained 120 points by playing 23 events by missing 8 cuts, finishing in the Top 50 6 times, and added the PGA win. That is not the performance of 33rd ranked player in the world.

 

The rankings are what they are. My only point is they are volatile and not necessarily indicative of who the best players are in current day.

 

 

 

I don't really disagree with you on the rankings being a very imperfect way of determining who is best. Your points are all fair. But i think it would be foolish for the majors and OGWR to underestimate LIV considering what they have done so far. This looked to be dead in the water 6 months ago after Mickelson-gate. They've picked off a lot of guys since then. And they barely have their act together in terms of a real tour.

 

I think there's a Malcolm Gladwell-style "tipping point" where these groups will see too many guys have jumped and they have to find a way to include them. Otherwise they'll start their own competing events. We might think it's crazy now , but didn't the tour tell the LIV crew to go suck a lemon when they wanted to collaborate early on? They might want a do-over on that one pretty soon. 10 years from now? No one really knows.

 

Majors can nip this in the bud right now if they want. How loyal are they to Jay Monahan and his cronies? We'll see i guess

[animalgolfs]

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by GwrxMod

[khalespace]

10 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

Just one more Asian Tour tournament and he won't have to play 3 majors. More time with family. P Reed present at the Asian Tour allows them to suck dry his ranking points and move from something like 700 to 680.

Edited August 16, 2022 by khalespace

[00steven]

Meaning the PGA players will boycott majors? Could Jay Monohan be forced out?

 

should be interesting.

[bscinstnct]

54 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I don't really disagree with you on the rankings being a very imperfect way of determining who is best. Your points are all fair. But i think it would be foolish for the majors and OGWR to underestimate LIV considering what they have done so far. This looked to be dead in the water 6 months ago after Mickelson-gate. They've picked off a lot of guys since then. And they barely have their act together in terms of a real tour.

 

I think there's a Malcolm Gladwell-style "tipping point" where these groups will see too many guys have jumped and they have to find a way to include them. Otherwise they'll start their own competing events. We might think it's crazy now , but didn't the tour tell the LIV crew to go suck a lemon when they wanted to collaborate early on? They might want a do-over on that one pretty soon. 10 years from now? No one really knows.

 

Majors can nip this in the bud right now if they want. How loyal are they to Jay Monahan and his cronies? We'll see i guess

 

The LIV Boston tickets are now selling for $9 🤣

 

I think tournament golf fans are voting with their wallets and it’s clear these events are miles from being real tournaments much less major quality testing grounds. 

 

The liv is playing exhibitions. There’s a big disconnect with 54 guys playing each other week in and week out in 54 hole, no cut, events. As Rahmbo said, “that’s not a golf tournament”

 

I can see the majors and pga tour going their way. And liv going the other way. 
 

The liv can keep picking off guys but the global pipeline of young talent flows into the pga tour first. And there’s plenty of hungry golfers looking for a card and opportunity to make 15-20MM a year (with the bigger purses and new events) and another 10-50MM in endorsements if they really rock. 
 

The majors shouldn’t support liv players, their partnership with the pga/euro tour goes back for many decades and the liv is actively hurting these tours. 
 

 

As far as liv, So far demand for these liv events couldn’t be lower. Pretty sad statement on how much weight BK, DJ, Bryson, etc actually pull with golf fans. 
 

 

[mitchl]

1 hour ago, HackerDave said:

His fellow players aren't going to like him any more over there.   

 

I just wonder how happy everyone is over there.  Phil looks like he is miserable.
Perez strutting like a peacock like he belongs on the same jet with some of these guys?
Does Brooks get along with anyone?   Now he's in a small group with guys who he has had trouble with before-  Bryson, DJ, and PReed.    (not sure how much he and DJ didn't get along really, but with PReed, he flat out called him a cheater multiple times)

 

DJ is one of the few who really meant that he wanted to play less, and within a month of him saying that, he's committed to 14 events next year, as well as the "expect they will play a number of events on the Asian Tour" is that guess that they might, or an expectation that they will.     DJ was really close to just playing 15 PGA events a year, and could be all fairly close to him.

You've got some good guys in LIV - Graeme and Louis and Henrik, probably Ancer - but it seems like the group that has issues playing well with others is larger.   

[MtlJeff]

17 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

The LIV Boston tickets are now selling for $9 🤣

 

I think tournament golf fans are voting with their wallets and it’s clear these events are miles from being real tournaments much less major quality testing grounds. 

 

The liv is playing exhibitions. There’s a big disconnect with 54 guys playing each other week in and week out in 54 hole, no cut, events. As Rahmbo said, “that’s not a golf tournament”

 

I can see the majors and pga tour going their way. And liv going the other way. 
 

The liv can keep picking off guys but the global pipeline of young talent flows into the pga tour first. And there’s plenty of hungry golfers looking for a card and opportunity to make 15-20MM a year (with the bigger purses and new events) and another 10-50MM in endorsements if they really rock. 
 

The majors shouldn’t support liv players, their partnership with the pga/euro tour goes back for many decades and the liv is actively hurting these tours. 
 

 

As far as liv, So far demand for these liv events couldn’t be lower. Pretty sad statement on how much weight BK, DJ, Bryson, etc actually pull with golf fans. 
 

 

 

Maybe you're right, time will tell. It's hard to know, given the Bedminster association to he who shall not be named, not to mention the tours supposed 6-7 figure deals with consulting firms to disparage LIV in the media. I wonder how many of these stories are plants. It certainly seems like the PGA tour is crapping their pants doesn't it? Why would they if this was so destined to fail and no one cares. 

 

I don't know, maybe no one cares. I guess we'll see. 

[SilverBullets]

27 minutes ago, 00steven said:

Meaning the PGA players will boycott majors? Could Jay Monohan be forced out?

 

should be interesting.

this is what Davis Love has been presenting for a couple weeks.  PGA players stick together, boycott the majors to force the hands of the majors.  Either ban the LIV players from the majors, or, they’ll have to cancel them because no tour players are there.

 

Either way it would basically be the biggest blow to the LIV tour that the PGA can deliver. Either he LIV guys get banned from majors or everyone in the golf world hates LIV players (and where their money came from) because there’s no 2023 Masters.

 

it would also help stop guys doing what Cam just did.  Win a major, get your exemption regardless of world ranking, join LIV to make a boat load of money and show up just to the majors.

 

it’s going to be interesting to see if they actually pull this off but it’s exactly what Davis Love recently proposed and said he’s been telling guys like Rory and JT to do. 

[new2g0lf]

This is LIV's first year, ever watch the early years of PGA Tour events, it wasn't pretty.  LIV will attract a major network, maybe FOX to broadcast their events, they have Feherty and will attract others to commentate.  As the LIV Tour grows, it will change, I can see them adding enough people where cuts are likely and maybe they expand to 4 day tournaments.  The galleries at the FedEx Playoff this week were weak, and as more big names jump, I suspect they will get smaller.  In the end, the two entities will have to merge, it makes no sense for them not to.  

[lefty1978]

27 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

As far as liv, So far demand for these liv events couldn’t be lower. Pretty sad statement on how much weight BK, DJ, Bryson, etc actually pull with golf fans. 

The truth is most golf fans watch golf for the golf, not individual players. The only player that would carry a new league is Tiger.

[MtlJeff]

30 minutes ago, 00steven said:

Meaning the PGA players will boycott majors? Could Jay Monohan be forced out?

 

should be interesting.

 

Compromise could be great. 4 majors, 3-4 WGCs , players championship, 5-6 big money LIV events, FedEx Cup....

 

I might never have to watch the RBC Canadian open starring Matt Kuchar again.....

[mitchl]

1 hour ago, SilverBullets said:

this is what Davis Love has been presenting for a couple weeks.  PGA players stick together, boycott the majors to force the hands of the majors.  Either ban the LIV players from the majors, or, they’ll have to cancel them because no tour players are there.

 

Either way it would basically be the biggest blow to the LIV tour that the PGA can deliver. Either he LIV guys get banned from majors or everyone in the golf world hates LIV players (and where their money came from) because there’s no 2023 Masters.

 

it would also help stop guys doing what Cam just did.  Win a major, get your exemption regardless of world ranking, join LIV to make a boat load of money and show up just to the majors.

 

it’s going to be interesting to see if they actually pull this off but it’s exactly what Davis Love recently proposed and said he’s been telling guys like Rory and JT to do. 

The boycott won't happen.    There will be guys that go to the majors and will not stick with some boycott.  Further, if the PGA boycotts, the British isn't going anywhere - - DPWT is currently letting LIV guys play in the events which are not co-sponsored with the PGA.   Anyone in the DPWT and Asian tour and who qualifies will still happily go to the Open while Rory watches on TV?   I don't think he's sitting out, and nobody else.   It's an awful look of the players having a little temper tantrum.

and if players boycott the Masters?  They may never get invited back if they do.

I maintain you don't close off the majors - there is no reason to.   Let the LIVers come in through the current exemption rules play the best from the rest of the world.   The guys playing for guaranteed money who have now all lost 3 events in a row to the guys who haven't won in years - you think that in 8 months of the limited play in LIV they will come into Augusta without rust and ready to compete in a 72 hole major?   

Now if I am a major do I grant exemptions for winning LIV events or even their championship - no.    It's limited field, poor strength of field, and no cut 54 holes, with a shotgun start.    I also don't grant exemptions for guys who won their club championships.    So the same win exemptions and OWGR based exemptions or playing qualifiers is how you get into the majors.

 

[mitchl]

3 hours ago, khalespace said:

Just one more Asian Tour tournament and he won't have to play 3 majors. More time with family. P Reed present at the Asian Tour allows them to suck dry his ranking points and move from something like 700 to 680.

Even if he won, it would have minimal impact on his ranking, he's going to drop below 50 by the end of August.
Notice that DJ also dropped out of the top 20, and Phil dropped out of the top 100, Westwood just dropped 5 spots to #98, he will likely be out of the top 100 on the next update.

Likely we will see all current LIVers out of the top 30 by the end of the year.

Edited August 16, 2022 by mitchl

[Thayneil]

8 hours ago, mitchl said:

i think you are looking at Adam Scott joining too.    Have they said that LIV players will be ineligible for the Intl team on presidents cup?   DPWT is letting LIVers play their events now, as of course Asian tour is.   
 

its also possible that they announce and just don’t tee it up in LIV until Bangkok or later.   Or they just don’t announce at all.

Presidents Cup is owned by the PGA Tour so strangely they can decide who plays for both teams

[philly2kuk]

1 hour ago, mitchl said:

The boycott won't happen.    There will be guys that go to the majors and will not stick with some boycott.  Further, if the PGA boycotts, the British isn't going anywhere - - DPWT is currently letting LIV guys play in the events which are not co-sponsored with the PGA.   Anyone in the DPWT and Asian tour and who qualifies will still happily go to the Open while Rory watches on TV?   I don't think he's sitting out, and nobody else.   It's an awful look of the players having a little temper tantrum.

and if players boycott the Masters?  They may never get invited back if they do.

I maintain you don't close off the majors - there is no reason to.   Let the LIVers come in through the current exemption rules play the best from the rest of the world.   The guys playing for guaranteed money who have now all lost 3 events in a row to the guys who haven't won in years - you think that in 8 months of the limited play in LIV they will come into Augusta without rust and ready to compete in a 72 hole major?   

Now if I am a major do I grant exemptions for winning LIV events or even their championship - no.    It's limited field, poor strength of field, and no cut 54 holes, with a shotgun start.    I also don't grant exemptions for guys who won their club championships.    So the same win exemptions and OWGR based exemptions or playing qualifiers is how you get into the majors.

 

Completely agree. No need to close off the majors to LIV players. Let the world rankings do that for them and they can go through open qualifying for the open and US open. Most of them have limited time exemptions (with the exception of previous masters winners) and aren’t getting practice at 72 hole competitions now. The majority of them aren’t likely to be competitive in majors.

[beluga99]

Going to throw it out there that Jay Monahan "retires to spend more time with his family" in the coming weeks.  Also looking forward to the outcomes of the anti-trust trial, albeit a little down the track.  I do chuckle when Davis Love III and Billy Horschel keep doubling down, but it's their prerogative and adds spice to the current landscape.

 

I'm curious how the Majors can ban players when they're not part of the PGA, and why the players would boycott them.  Cutting off their nose to spite their face.  Just like the PGA seem to be doing.  A player's window to win Majors is small, not sure sitting them out because of bitterness towards LIV is the way forward.

 

My hope if for a more collaborative approach, so that both can co-exist and we get to see the best golfers play.  Like the initial reactions to the light bulb, the automobile and the airplane, LIV has been widely poo-pooed.  I have a feeling like the afore mentioned inventions they're not going away.  Time will tell.

 

Bigger picture, if the PGA bans players, will more of the average sporting public watch?  If the Majors ban players, many of whom past winners, will more people watch and attend?  Will sponsors and tournaments want to pay the same tomorrow if many of the most recognizable names to the general golf public are not playing?  Jay Monahan is potentially the steward of a diminishing product, and maybe his hubris will be his downfall.  I have the popcorn at the ready!

[imakaveli]

7 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

TW be like

 

 

TW will be like “I refused a gazillion dollar, can you stop whining on twitter and do something?” 😂😂

[NoFancyUsername.]

Some of the rubbish that's said here... where do you guys dream of this stuff... When a clown enters a kings palace he doesn't become the king, the palace becomes a circus. 

[hunterdog]

Is Cam Smith missing the BMW because of an injury or to avoid a meeting with TW?

[nicoy3k]

8 hours ago, new2g0lf said:

This is LIV's first year, ever watch the early years of PGA Tour events, it wasn't pretty.  LIV will attract a major network, maybe FOX to broadcast their events, they have Feherty and will attract others to commentate.  As the LIV Tour grows, it will change, I can see them adding enough people where cuts are likely and maybe they expand to 4 day tournaments.  The galleries at the FedEx Playoff this week were weak, and as more big names jump, I suspect they will get smaller.  In the end, the two entities will have to merge, it makes no sense for them not to.  

XFL, except the XFL was actually watchable. 

[puttfordoux]

9 hours ago, lefty1978 said:

The truth is most golf fans watch golf for the golf, not individual players. The only player that would carry a new league is Tiger.

If the PGA Tour wasn't concerned, why are they pulling Tiger in to rally the troops, so to speak? The tour may not be losing talent, but they are losing star power, and Tiger understands that, being the biggest star of the game. Casual fans do follow the players more than the golf, which professional golf certainly goes after for a potential new market.

[iBanesto]

13 hours ago, johnseg said:

I can't imagine the Masters would bat an eye at Norman holding a tournament at the same time. They would say bring it on.

 

Depending wo may or may not jump, I don't see an issue dumping guys that were in the Top 75 over the last two seasons. I look at a guy like Oosthuizen that ended last year ranked 10. Does anyone really believe that he was one of the top 10 players in the world last year? I just don't see it. OWGR's really are about playing pretty mediocre in the right events/fields. Tiger ended 2019 ranked at 6 and was still 41 at the end of 2020 by only gaining 19 points while losing 173. In 2021 Phil gained 120 points by playing 23 events by missing 8 cuts, finishing in the Top 50 6 times, and added the PGA win. That is not the performance of 33rd ranked player in the world.

 

The rankings are what they are. My only point is they are volatile and not necessarily indicative of who the best players are in current day.

 

 

 

Oosthuizen in 2021:

 

- T6 WGC

- T8 Valspar

- T2 PGA Championship

- 2nd US Open

- T3 Open Championship

- T2 3M Open

- 5 other top 25 finishes

- Plus no missed cuts in 19 events played.

 

So it is not unfathomable he was one of the best 10 players in the world. He could have won 3 majors that year.

 

Not really sure why you are saying he doesn't deserve a top 10 ranking based on his performances.

[pearcebarr]

13 hours ago, johnseg said:

I can't imagine the Masters would bat an eye at Norman holding a tournament at the same time. They would say bring it on.

 

I think the way things are heading, LIV is going to have to try and come up with its own majors - at least for the time being. They've already got the Doral tournament for a trillion dollars or whatever, which can be a major for them. As far as the Masters goes, I have a theory that the Memorial could jump ship from the PGA Tour and be viewed as Liv's Masters. We know that Jack is sympathetic to Liv, and the whole point of the Memorial was to be a quasi-competitor to the Masters. It is no where near the same level of the Masters, but I could see them making that move.  

[MtlJeff]

PGA players boycotting the majors would be IMO, one of the dumbest things they can do and just speed up the process of "ruining" pro golf the way everyone is worried about.

 

This is just my opinion of course, but golf is run by crusty old dudes who don't understand Gen Z or younger millennials very well. They are not as moved by "tradition" or "loyalty" or "history", this is a generation that grew up where every time a share price goes down 800 people get laid off. They will work 2x-3x as many jobs in their lifetimes as 50yr olds now did, and many of them are told (and believe) that our traditions and values are the reason for this. In some cases it's true. This is before you get into the basics that this meeting is about telling 23yr olds you need to destroy a company that wants to pay them more money, to protect the legacies of 50-60yr olds...Will that resonate like they want it to? I'm not so sure

 

I'm sure the Masters is important to them but 100M guaranteed? 50M guaranteed when your career PGA earnings are 8M....You're still counting on someone turning that down for tradition.

 

If the backers of LIV are really serious about staying in golf, as i mentioned earlier they just need to schedule a massive , biggest ever purse at a place like Doral the week of the Masters. And say, Tradition or a 3M cheque? Take your pick. We'll throw in a champions dinner if you want. This is not that crazy a scenario

Edited August 16, 2022 by MtlJeff

[aus10KC]

2 hours ago, puttfordoux said:

If the PGA Tour wasn't concerned, why are they pulling Tiger in to rally the troops, so to speak? The tour may not be losing talent, but they are losing star power, and Tiger understands that, being the biggest star of the game. Casual fans do follow the players more than the golf, which professional golf certainly goes after for a potential new market.

 

They did the same thing in '94, but instead of Tiger it was Arnold Palmer. Of course LIV is way further along than anything in '94. Arnold commanded great respect amongst tour players, I'd imagine Tiger does as well with this generation of golfers. 

[mitchl]

41 minutes ago, pearcebarr said:

As far as the Masters goes, I have a theory that the Memorial could jump ship from the PGA Tour and be viewed as Liv's Masters. We know that Jack is sympathetic to Liv, and the whole point of the Memorial was to be a quasi-competitor to the Masters. It is no where near the same level of the Masters, but I could see them making that move.  

what?   Where have you seen that Jack is sympathetic to LIV?   
he turned down a quarter billion dollars to lead it.

 

and Jack, 6 times Masters winner, would make the Memorial the quasi Masters.   This is also the same Jack that idolizes Bobby Jones.   
 

yeah, Jack might do that on Bizzaro Earth.