LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[CDM]

57 minutes ago, MaineMariner said:

 

Wasn't the issue that Phil wanted to use footage from PGA Tour events in the promotional material for the Match and was denied?

 

Yes it was.

[RobS]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Phil isn't wearing LIV logos.  DJ isn't either.  Only one I can think of is Reed.

 

Are you saying this applies to all players and their previous clothing deals will either be nullified or cannot be renewed going forward?

The limited information from the contract and some of the player agent comments imply that players eventually will be in team "uniforms" with only LIV and team logos with the exception of  a club manufacturer logo on the side of the hat referenced in the WSJ article.  It sounds like they want to reserve branding for LIV and potential future franchise owners.  One agents commented around the 1st event that players would be allowed to maintain their sponsorships for a couple of seasons.  I assume that applies to their on course sponsors....bag, hat, shirt branding.  

Edited August 19, 2022 by RobS

[bscinstnct]

Tickets for Boston now $6

 

3 day pass for $45

 

How is this possible when they sell them on the site for $70 for just one day?

 

[subrew]

1 hour ago, RobS said:

The limited information from the contract and some of the player agent comments imply that players eventually will be in team "uniforms" with only LIV and team logos with the exception of  a club manufacturer logo on the side of the hat referenced in the WSJ article.  It sounds like they want to reserve branding for LIV and potential future franchise owners.  One agents commented around the 1st event that players would be allowed to maintain their sponsorships for a couple of seasons.  I assume that applies to their on course sponsors....bag, hat, shirt branding.  

 

The Majesticks team was already wearing a "uniform."  It was various color polos and zipups with their Majesticks logo on the left side shoulder.  Ian had another sponsor on his chest and Mastercard on the collar, and Stensen was rocking the Boss logo on his chest pocket.  Everyone is wearing their respective equipment mfgs hats like usual.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by subrew

[Simpsonia]

11 hours ago, 2bGood said:

The PGAT has no restrictions on what golfers wear outside of events. The restriction during events are very liberal, and some instances are about complying with law (tobacco) or just things bad for the image (porn or LIV golf)

 

That model is kind of a shambles. They want team bought by companies promoting themselves, with some guys on contract to promote the team owner, and some able not to?

 

Why? It is really none of our business what is contract between LIV and any player. 

 

The whole team equity concept they are championing is idiotic. They say they are trying to emulate F1 teams. But, in any other team in any other sport in the world, there's real tangibles to actually have equity in, whether it's infrastructure (stadiums), equipment (F1 cars and tech), operational staff (coaches, mechanics, analytics, logistics, etc), regional or otherwise exclusivity (NFL teams and cities).

 

What exactly is there to have equity in a team of 4 golfers who essentially play their rounds completely solo otherwise? When DJ retires from LIV and golf in general, what value is there in his team otherwise? Nobody cares about Pat Perez, there's no infrastructure or operational staff, there's literally nothing other than a weak brand that nobody cares about if that. I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a dozen people not affiliated with LIV, who can even tell you their team name off the top of their head. It will always just be DJ's team. 

[farmer]

LIV should let the players use carts and deck them out like NASCAR.  Have some sand drags in a bunker, appeal to a different demographic!  The possibilities are endless!

[subrew]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

Tickets for Boston now $6

 

3 day pass for $45

 

How is this possible when they sell them on the site for $70 for just one day?

 

 

Because you are looking at Stubhub, which is a reseller.  Promotors are given large blocks of tickets right off the start, and they often sell them on sites like stubhub.  It has caused a lot of controversy in the ticket sales world, as you'll see stories about how Taylor Swift will sell out a 50,000 venue, but only 15,000 of the seats are actually available for purchase by fans off the venue's site.  The remaining seats were all pre-sold to various promotors, Ticket master etc.  It has even caused controversy when those tickets are offered before the general public can even buy tickets.  Those promoters know they are getting a large block, so they offer them for sale on stubhub before they physically have a ticket to sell. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by subrew

[Ghost of Snead]

Dottie Pepper | My Take on LIV

[subrew]

5 hours ago, leezer99 said:

 

How many UPS logos have you seen since the inception of the FedEx Cup?  Only two players have been grandfathered in, Lee Westwood and Louis Oosthuizen, and that was because they had prior existing relationships.

 

When Nascar wanted to sign on Sprint as the title sponsor for their main division, they agreed to terms that didn't allow other cell/phone/wireless companies on any team cars.  However, Richard Childeres Racing was in the middle of a long-term deal with AT&T.  So it got battled out in court.  Any existing sponsors were allowed to run out their contract, but no new competitors to the title sponsor was allowed.

 

https://www.autosport.com/nascar/news/att-nascar-reach-settlement-4412130/4412130/

 

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

Tickets for Boston now $6

 

3 day pass for $45

 

How is this possible when they sell them on the site for $70 for just one day?

 

I think people are getting them free and then selling on the secondary market

 

That and no one is paying $70 for a hit and giggle

[subrew]

26 minutes ago, Ghost of Snead said:

Dottie Pepper | My Take on LIV

 

Her paragraph about the ladies game is interesting.  She mentions the Aramco series as:

 

"Aramco, officially the Saudi Arabian Oil Company, has backed a handful of Ladies European Tour events as that tour has struggled, but the line must be drawn by the LPGA."

 

Pretty much the face of the LPGA currently, Nelly Korda, is playing this weekend.  Team format.  Her sister Jessica shot a 61 yesterday, and her team is leading.  Anna Nordqvist is playing, and is a team captain.  She was just named a Vice Captain for the Euro's Solheim Cup, the announcement made the day she tee'd off at the Aramco event.  

 

 

[hackeraz]

39 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

The whole team equity concept they are championing is idiotic. They say they are trying to emulate F1 teams. But, in any other team in any other sport in the world, there's real tangibles to actually have equity in, whether it's infrastructure (stadiums), equipment (F1 cars and tech), operational staff (coaches, mechanics, analytics, logistics, etc), regional or otherwise exclusivity (NFL teams and cities).

 

What exactly is there to have equity in a team of 4 golfers who essentially play their rounds completely solo otherwise? When DJ retires from LIV and golf in general, what value is there in his team otherwise? Nobody cares about Pat Perez, there's no infrastructure or operational staff, there's literally nothing other than a weak brand that nobody cares about if that. I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a dozen people not affiliated with LIV, who can even tell you their team name off the top of their head. It will always just be DJ's team. 

Where's the equity in an E-Sports team? 

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, Fairways_and_Greens said:

How LIV executes the contract today may not represent how LIV executes the contract a year or two from now...

 

So speaking in absolutes (like from the post that I quoted and few others that I didn't) is likely not representative of what has, will, or could transpire.

 

Maybe some posters should step back away from statements that start "LIV is..." or "LIV says..." or "LIV contracts...," as they seem to be fluid and different for each individual.  

 

This isn't the PGAT where there is one set of rules more or less applied uniformly to all the players.  They have individual contracts that likely have similar frameworks but are ultimately individual contracts more similar to other sports leagues contracts.  Some guys may get signing bonuses, or have different stipulations and allowances within as compared to others.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Snead said:

Dottie Pepper | My Take on LIV

 

A fair opinion but it is just a different opinion.  When someone comes at it from the "greed" angle they lose me.  My personal stance is to never tell someone how much money they should make, tell them how much money they need, or judge them based upon either.  There is likely a long list of people who think I may be underachieving in my life.  Likely just as long a list of people who would say I am overachieving or don't deserve what I make doing what I do.  Both lines get the same amount of my attention.

 

She can certainly have the mindset that "Greg has tried this before," and that is a valid take.  I can't argue that.  I would just point out that LIV was not presented, as I understand, as a "rival golf tour" but rather as an additional option for professional golfers.  Some may elect to play it exclusively, some also have attempted or have elected to play the LIV events in addition to the other tours.

 

Is LIV competition.  Sure.  Just as the DP Tour is competition to the PGAT as the Asian Tour is as the NFL is.  It is both competition for the players and for the viewers.  I know I am watching the PGAT events much less now.  One reason is the stark contrast in the number of golf shots shown on the PGAT broadcasts and the other is the lack of quality of fields. Plus it is getting into the time of year when I am playing more and spending more weekends doing stuff away from the TV.

[Muffy]

It'd be interesting to learn the term (1 year/1 season?) of the LIV player contracts.   

 

Also it'd be interesting to read LIV's antitrust filing against the PGAT tour.....I would assume that is a public document now that just requires site access to obtain. 

[Simpsonia]

1 hour ago, hackeraz said:

Where's the equity in an E-Sports team? 

 

For your every day e-sports team? No equity beyond their earnings. Now there are a few very big e-sports teams that do have serious value, but that value is in the organization and management (operational staff) that scout and coach their individual teams across multiple e-sports titles.

 

But, the very nature of those titles require team play, which requires operational staff to scout, coach, and manage teams to work together at the highest levels. None of that is present in golf (outside of maybe the Ryder and President's Cup), as it's always just one golfer against the course. There's no need for a team to play well together, to strategize, to manage and coach these teams. 

 

Hell, that could have been where LIV actually set themselves apart and grew a new aspect of golf. Create a real teamplay tour with new rules based on teamplay only. At least that would be something new and kind of exciting. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

2 hours ago, subrew said:

 

Because you are looking at Stubhub, which is a reseller.  Promotors are given large blocks of tickets right off the start, and they often sell them on sites like stubhub.  It has caused a lot of controversy in the ticket sales world, as you'll see stories about how Taylor Swift will sell out a 50,000 venue, but only 15,000 of the seats are actually available for purchase by fans off the venue's site.  The remaining seats were all pre-sold to various promotors, Ticket master etc.  It has even caused controversy when those tickets are offered before the general public can even buy tickets.  Those promoters know they are getting a large block, so they offer them for sale on stubhub before they physically have a ticket to sell. 

Correct--- I read a pretty good article about that a while back to understand why buying concert tickets can be so frustrating. But usually those events are selling for multiples above face. 

 

In the LIV case, either due to lack of demand and/or excess supply, the prices are fractional of face value.  This is noteworthy because usually resale tickets for popular events that are several weeks out are selling above face value. The price only drops as the date approaches if there is any excess inventory.  So if LIV tickets are only $9 several weeks before the event then they will probably be $1 the day before the event 🙂Whereas tomorrows BMW playoff the cheapest ticket is still $112 on SH.   

Edited August 19, 2022 by BlackDiamondPar5

[bscinstnct]

2 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

 

The whole team equity concept they are championing is idiotic. They say they are trying to emulate F1 teams. But, in any other team in any other sport in the world, there's real tangibles to actually have equity in, whether it's infrastructure (stadiums), equipment (F1 cars and tech), operational staff (coaches, mechanics, analytics, logistics, etc), regional or otherwise exclusivity (NFL teams and cities).

 

What exactly is there to have equity in a team of 4 golfers who essentially play their rounds completely solo otherwise? When DJ retires from LIV and golf in general, what value is there in his team otherwise? Nobody cares about Pat Perez, there's no infrastructure or operational staff, there's literally nothing other than a weak brand that nobody cares about if that. I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a dozen people not affiliated with LIV, who can even tell you their team name off the top of their head. It will always just be DJ's team. 

 

Theoretically, if the liv can generate a billion a year in revenue, as the pga tour does, and equity in the teams represents a substantial portion of equity in the overall league, the team valuations could be substantial.

 

But clearly they are light years from this scenario.

 

This can happen if liv gets to a point where they have 50% or more of the top-20 in the world. And a proven product that generates hundreds of millions/billions in revenue. So, even if one star retires, the team, via the liv having such deep top talent, still represents a stellar quality level. 
 

I think a huge challenge is that this format, the same 54 guys, the same format, every week, gets played out. And if they increase field sizes, necessitating cuts, or 72 hole events, is that what DJ, BK etc agreed to in their contracts?

Edited August 19, 2022 by bscinstnct

[Dutch1008]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

So speaking in absolutes (like from the post that I quoted and few others that I didn't) is likely not representative of what has, will, or could transpire.

 

Maybe some posters should step back away from statements that start "LIV is..." or "LIV says..." or "LIV contracts...," as they seem to be fluid and different for each individual.  

 

This isn't the PGAT where there is one set of rules more or less applied uniformly to all the players.  They have individual contracts that likely have similar frameworks but are ultimately individual contracts more similar to other sports leagues contracts.  Some guys may get signing bonuses, or have different stipulations and allowances within as compared to others.

There are no absolutes, everybody here is simply providing their opinion on public information. Nobody here knows the fine print or if there are differences between DJ, Phil, Poulter or an also ran like Ogletree. We're all just speculating. Message boards and comment sections we're literally created so that fans could offer opinions and speculate on limited information. 

 

Over a month ago the media reported that tournament winnings were offset against the signing bonuses. LIV's counsel confirmed that in the TRO. LIV's PR folks denied it later on. What's the  truth? Nobody on this site has any idea. 

 

The WSJ (Not some blogger with an opinion) reported that the LIV contracts require players to wear LIV branding and solicit players. Is that universal? Will the branding requirements be phased in over time? How will that effect the LIV players? If DJ's team is eventually sponsored by Emirates Air, does he need to forfeit his NetJets deal? If Cobra/Puma buys/sponsors his team, does he need to walk away from Adidas/Taylormade? If they do have to walk away from these sponsorships, do the players have equity or profits interest in these teams? If so, what happens when they retire? If DJ retires at 40, does he have to sell his equity? Does everybody get diluted when a replacement gets named? 

 

None of us have a damn clue about any of it.   

[subrew]

2 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

 

The whole team equity concept they are championing is idiotic. They say they are trying to emulate F1 teams. But, in any other team in any other sport in the world, there's real tangibles to actually have equity in, whether it's infrastructure (stadiums), equipment (F1 cars and tech), operational staff (coaches, mechanics, analytics, logistics, etc), regional or otherwise exclusivity (NFL teams and cities).

 

What exactly is there to have equity in a team of 4 golfers who essentially play their rounds completely solo otherwise? When DJ retires from LIV and golf in general, what value is there in his team otherwise? Nobody cares about Pat Perez, there's no infrastructure or operational staff, there's literally nothing other than a weak brand that nobody cares about if that. I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a dozen people not affiliated with LIV, who can even tell you their team name off the top of their head. It will always just be DJ's team. 

 

Right now, the team format is fairly loose, not well defined, and I don't think fully realized.  So yes, comparing it to F1 or NBA right now is dumb.

 

But I could see something like the following happening:

 

-Adidas owns a team, probably the 4Aces, which is captained by DJ.  DJ has long been a Adidas partner.

 

-Other players (not necessarily the existing 4Aces lineup now) get brought into the fold. Quite a few other Adidas players out there.  Recruitment could be fun.

 

-Maybe there is an agreement with Taylormade, that all the players are TM members.  Quite a few Adidas and TM guys already exist.

 

-They borrow away Chris Trottie to be the Adidas/TM/4Aces club man and social media content guru, churning out his fun videos featuring the players.  He builds the clubs, does the fitting sessions, films content from events and practice/fitting days.

 

-Instead of each player having a swing coach, and putting coach, and physio person that they pay for themselves, the team does.  The team pays for those resources, like how an F1 team or NBA team provides those resources.

 

-At a handful of LIV events, they run a special Pro-Am team event.  Aaron Rodgers, or Steph Curry, or Lando Norris and other celebrities in the sports or golf universe can be part of the Adidas/TM/4Aces team sphere, and participate in the Pro-Am team events.  And are part of the social media landscape of the team.

 

-Maybe there is a LIV Golf Corporate headquarters somewhere, say Florida.  Built at a practice facility.  Each team has a locker room, fittings bay etc.  Basically a LIV version of Taylormade's Kingdom.  Now that team essentially owns a "charter" and a slot of the facility.  Nascar now runs a charter system, and charters are regularly sold for millions of dollars as new teams are created and want the full rights to running for a season championship. 

 

 

Right now the teams are just dorky names, and it adds a bit of excitement to the last round of golf, as teams shuffle around for finishing order.  But it could grow into something, if LIV can stick it out long enough. 

 

Adidas/TM vs Nike vs Team Dunlop vs Team Aussie IPA Mullets vs Team Avocados from Mexico.  

Edited August 19, 2022 by subrew

[jdl]

3 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Agree. However, could also see the dp tour getting out of the pgat contractual relationship if LIV aligns better for golf and golfers in Europe...

Sure, they could change their mind but seems like if that path was of interest they could have sold themselves to LIV already.

[Ghost of Snead]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

A fair opinion but it is just a different opinion.  When someone comes at it from the "greed" angle they lose me.  My personal stance is to never tell someone how much money they should make, tell them how much money they need, or judge them based upon either.  There is likely a long list of people who think I may be underachieving in my life.  Likely just as long a list of people who would say I am overachieving or don't deserve what I make doing what I do.  Both lines get the same amount of my attention.

 

She can certainly have the mindset that "Greg has tried this before," and that is a valid take.  I can't argue that.  I would just point out that LIV was not presented, as I understand, as a "rival golf tour" but rather as an additional option for professional golfers.  Some may elect to play it exclusively, some also have attempted or have elected to play the LIV events in addition to the other tours.

 

Is LIV competition.  Sure.  Just as the DP Tour is competition to the PGAT as the Asian Tour is as the NFL is.  It is both competition for the players and for the viewers.  I know I am watching the PGAT events much less now.  One reason is the stark contrast in the number of golf shots shown on the PGAT broadcasts and the other is the lack of quality of fields. Plus it is getting into the time of year when I am playing more and spending more weekends doing stuff away from the TV.

 

LIV has never been presented as an additional option to the PGA Tour and if it had, would have received the same reception by the PGA Tour it has today. 

 

I don't need to see and am not interested in golf shots from those professionals playing poorly or from those nowhere near the leaders in any media format. If golf fans cared solely about seeing as many golf shots as possible, why would they ever attend a tournament in person ? 

 

For most of us in the Northern Hemisphere, it is summer and most if not all of us are not glued to every PGA Tour telecast watching every shot. As the PGA Tour only requires a minimum number of events to be played, you will always have events with what you call "substandard" fields. Any of the 200 or so players vying for PGA Tour $/status is far from substandard and all PGA Tour players have earned their right to play via the meritocracy. Supposedly Tiger and crew met in Delaware and one of the agenda items was to get the top players together more often so quite possibly we could see that in the near future. How they will pull that off will be a challenge. 

 

IMO, two key quotes from Dottie : 

 

We’re here at this awkward place in golf because of greed. Because of nearly 30 years of vengeance. And because not many seem willing to ask the self-reflective questions “How much is enough?” and “How much is dignity, integrity, tradition and a rightful place in history worth?”

 

One last thought: In a world where so many are asking “How much can golf pay me?” how about asking “How can I repay golf for what it has given me?” I know I can never make that gift whole, and I also know I am not alone.

     

Edited August 19, 2022 by Ghost of Snead

[CDLgolf]

5 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Phil isn't wearing LIV logos.  DJ isn't either.  Only one I can think of is Reed.

 

Are you saying this applies to all players and their previous clothing deals will either be nullified or cannot be renewed going forward?

 

I though I read that during or after year 3 all individual logos and sponsors will go away.  Everyone will dress in their team logos and colors which they want to sell the teams to major corporations. 

[ahenderX]

1 hour ago, Muffy said:

It'd be interesting to learn the term (1 year/1 season?) of the LIV player contracts.   

 

Also it'd be interesting to read LIV's antitrust filing against the PGAT tour.....I would assume that is a public document now that just requires site access to obtain. 

This Golf Channel article provides links to the LIV/PGA Tour court filings.

 

LIV Golf players vs. PGA Tour: Timeline of legal proceedings and full court documents

[mahonie]

1 hour ago, jdl said:

Sure, they could change their mind but seems like if that path was of interest they could have sold themselves to LIV already.

Was that not why the 'alliance' was formed in the first place? I'm speculating, but I guess the European Tour was approached first and Pelley mentioned it to Monahan and all of a sudden there is an alliance. Iirc, the PGL also approached the Euro Tour first. 

 

The 're-brand' also copyrighted 'world tour' to prevent GN/LIV achieving their ultimate goal? 

[RobS]

3 hours ago, subrew said:

 

The Majesticks team was already wearing a "uniform."  It was various color polos and zipups with their Majesticks logo on the left side shoulder.  Ian had another sponsor on his chest and Mastercard on the collar, and Stensen was rocking the Boss logo on his chest pocket.  Everyone is wearing their respective equipment mfgs hats like usual.

 

 

 

 

Correct but in the future it sounds like the OEM hats and sponsor logos on apparel will be going away.  According to the WSJ article on the contracts, the players will eventually be limited to a log on the side of their LIV hat for their club sponsor.

[Dutch1008]

1 hour ago, subrew said:

Adidas/TM vs Nike vs Team Dunlop vs Team Aussie IPA Mullets vs Team Avocados from Mexico.  

Interesting concept. But who are the beneficiaries? Are the brands or billionaires buying these teams from the PIF? Do they have to absorb the signing bonuses LIV gave out? If they are paying for all the travel and coaching, are they the beneficiaries of any tournament winnings or outside sponsorship opportunities? Does this effectively transition golf from an eat-what-you-kill sport to a contract based sport? 

 

If you own a premier league club, F1 team, or NFL franchise, all of the media rights and team sponsorship dollars are yours and yours alone. You get to decide how you are going to allocate your resources subject to some league rules (salary caps or minimums, F1 caps R&D spending to level the playing field, MLB mandates that a % of revenue must be spent on salaries etc). If somebody purchasing a LIV team doesn't capture that value, what exactly are they buying? 

[RobS]

2 hours ago, Muffy said:

It'd be interesting to learn the term (1 year/1 season?) of the LIV player contracts.   

 

Also it'd be interesting to read LIV's antitrust filing against the PGAT tour.....I would assume that is a public document now that just requires site access to obtain. 

The filing is public.  You can sign up for free and use the court system case locator or easier, google search it as it's been posted by a number of outlets.  The case is technically 10 LIV players against the PGAT.  LIV is not a named party.  The players are suing for the right to continue playing the PGAT and associated damages related to their suspensions.  Some of the antitrust components will come up at trial but it's not a LIV v PGAT antitrust suit.

[mahonie]

1 hour ago, Simpsonia said:

 

For your every day e-sports team? No equity beyond their earnings. Now there are a few very big e-sports teams that do have serious value, but that value is in the organization and management (operational staff) that scout and coach their individual teams across multiple e-sports titles.

 

But, the very nature of those titles require team play, which requires operational staff to scout, coach, and manage teams to work together at the highest levels. None of that is present in golf (outside of maybe the Ryder and President's Cup), as it's always just one golfer against the course. There's no need for a team to play well together, to strategize, to manage and coach these teams. 

 

Hell, that could have been where LIV actually set themselves apart and grew a new aspect of golf. Create a real teamplay tour with new rules based on teamplay only. At least that would be something new and kind of exciting. 

You only need to look at the success of Twenty20 cricket across the globe which has already spawned 'The Hundred' in the UK. Shortened form of the game co-existing with the established order and generating massive fan interest and subsequently sponsorship and ultimately a massive injection of cash.

 

There are so many variations of golf competition that could be adapted. Just imagine a team Texas scramble event played out as a league, Stableford team competitions, match play competitions between teams, mixed events, as well as individual stroke play competitions. Just needs a bit of thinking outside the 72 hole stroke play box.

[subrew]

34 minutes ago, mahonie said:

Just imagine a team Texas scramble event played out as a league

 

That's how I wish the LIV Team format was.  Play their 54 hole event Th-Sat.  Then Team Texas Scramble 18 hole on Sunday.  All four players playing together Texas Scramble style, hero shots aplenty.  Commentary person assigned to each team, catching the banter between players, discussions about how to hit each shot etc.  It would be a combination of a Good Good video, TM/Trottie video, and the best of Shiels/Finch/Carter/Fryer comradery.