The real reason golfers don’t get better with practice

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  • PowderedToastManPowderedToastMan Members Posts: 3,736 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    larrybud wrote:


    larrybud wrote:



    Of all the items he listed, having good meta-awareness in general and especially in feel channel on the body when learning are most important, by far.




    What the **** is "meta-awareness"? "Feel channel"? C'mon, this kind of double-speak is one reason why golfers don't get better. One of the biggest (if not the biggest) components in teaching is actually communicating clearly to your students.




    Larry that is a stunningly un-informed comment.



    First of all, you have no idea whether or not I explain precisely what those two terms mean when I work with a new student..and as any of my students will tell you, I not only go into great detail about those two issues, they are literally the very first things I work with a new student about. Within 30 minutes they all know EXACTLY what those two terms mean.






    The fact that you have to make up your own terms and explain their definition to students is the problem. Just talk in clear concise every day terms. This isn't brain surgery, it's body movements.




    I'm surprised to see you say things like this, LB. Jim's stuff has always resonated with me. So much so, in fact, that I referred my son to Jim for help in overcoming his driver yips.


    While I would agree that Larry needs some more tact, I know many golfers don’t want to spend 30 minutes talking about meta-awareness. I’m not accusing Jim of doing this, but I don’t like the use of scientific jargon when not speaking to those in the field (See George Orwell, Politics and the English Language).



    The difference here is that people come to Jim to learn, so he can teach them all he wants, how he wants. The mental game is huge and Jim has something really good going that a lot of people like and implement with success...



    but certain people are going to get turned off by the jargon. I’m personally a fan of how Bob Rotella does his thing, zero jargon but gets his ideas across in a way that is super easy to understand. No offence to you Jim, just different approaches. Rotella’s got a PhD and he talks like a regular guy. I like that approach, but I also know a lot of people think he’s too simplistic.



    Alright, I’m done playing mediator!
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  • ctmason_98ctmason_98 TOTALLY outta the bag... Posts: 1,827 ✭✭




    Of all the items he listed, having good meta-awareness in general and especially in feel channel on the body when learning are most important, by far.




    I think it is fantastic if you teach people successfully. I don’t know anything about how you teach, and don’t care.



    So with all that said...this sentence is complete gibberish.



    And if it makes any one feel better, by all means just chalk it up to me just not being as smart as you.
  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 4,969 ✭✭
    in.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,665 ClubWRX
    ctmason_98 wrote:




    Of all the items he listed, having good meta-awareness in general and especially in feel channel on the body when learning are most important, by far.




    I think it is fantastic if you teach people successfully. I don’t know anything about how you teach, and don’t care.



    So with all that said...this sentence is complete gibberish.



    And if it makes any one feel better, by all means just chalk it up to me just not being as smart as you.




    I don't know what a "feel channel" is, but I'm a big believer in meta-awareness being something every golfer should start to understand.
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  • larrybudlarrybud Members Posts: 11,224 ✭✭

    larrybud wrote:


    The fact that you have to make up your own terms and explain their definition to students is the problem. Just talk in clear concise every day terms. This isn't brain surgery, it's body movements.




    Once again you are completely clueless as to what I teach and how I teach it. It is always stunning to read stuff like this on the Internet from total strangers who have never worked with me.



    You obviously have an axe to grind, but you might try actually knowing what you are talking about before posting.



    "Meta-Awareness" is not a "made up term". It is a word used in Neuroscience to describe a specific aspect of high mental function which is the ability of the mind to observe itself. Something you clearly lack.




    I go by what you talk about on here, Jim. This is a discussion forum, that's what we go by. So now I have to work with you personally to really understand what you're trying to say? Gimme a break! lol



    No axe to grind except it fits right in with this topic of why golfers don't get better, IMO.



    Yeah, it's a word in Neuroscience. I rest my case.
  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members Posts: 9,575 ✭✭
    Funny thread. Ya I'm sure the 16 year old kid who is a +5 thinks about his feel channel. You can't make this **** up



    I agree self awareness is important but I'd say the number one reason people don't improve is practice. People think you can be a scratch golfer playing once a week. You can maintain but I doubt most will ever get there if that is all they do. It takes time. There are also lots of bad instructors out there who will not help you on your journey.
    How to be in better shape for golf?
    Become a better athlete.
    Don't worry about golf specific.
    Compound lifts w/ linear progress
    Don't forget the mobility work.
    More results, more functional

    Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
    17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
    8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
    Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
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  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members Posts: 9,575 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    BMC wrote:


    The real reason golfers don’t get better with practice...





    Because some don't have the motor skills or or god given ability to get better.



    Sure practice and instruction could allow somebody

    who shoots 110 to shoot 100. But some people max out their potential.



    Some people run fast, jump high, or hit a tennis ball coming at them at 140 mph. Some people just have a natural ability to hit a golf ball straight and far. And didn't "practice" that much to be able to do it.




    While this is absolutely true and I repeat it frequently, I think it's also true that many people who play golf never get close to their full potential. More so in golf than in other sports, actually. I don't have any "proof" of this, it's just an observation after playing the game for 30 years after playing other sports growing up and baseball in high school and college at a high level. Golf is a truly unique sport in many ways....




    Do you think the guy playing rec league basketball twice a week ever reaches his basketball potential? To even get close to your potential in any sport or pursuit takes an incredibly huge amount of time.
    How to be in better shape for golf?
    Become a better athlete.
    Don't worry about golf specific.
    Compound lifts w/ linear progress
    Don't forget the mobility work.
    More results, more functional

    Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
    17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
    8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
    Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
    Pga tour driver avg launch conditions: 11* 2700
  • larrybudlarrybud Members Posts: 11,224 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:


    I'm surprised to see you say things like this, LB. Jim's stuff has always resonated with me. So much so, in fact, that I referred my son to Jim for help in overcoming his driver yips.




    Because it does nobody any favors. By his own admission, players have to pull up a *neuroscience* glossary to understand what Jim is talking about, and they have to blow 1/2 hour of lesson time to understand "meta-awareness". So they're a hundred bucks into golf lessons (or whatever Jim's hourly rate is) and have 0 progress. Honestly, how are new players supposed to relate to this? How are you supposed to get players into golf, and WANT to take lessons and get better with this? So they're an hour into a lesson and all they've done is book learning, and they'll forget 99% of it 5 minutes after they leave, when it's not necessary.



    It's absolutely detrimental to the game of golf.
  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members Posts: 9,575 ✭✭
    I really don't think a hack needs to talk about the mental game to get better. They need to be taught to move the club in a more efficient manner. If we're talking about taking a great player and making them elite? Sure. But if we're talking joe 30 handicap at the range, they already have no idea what they're doing. If you try to talk mental game with them you will confuse them so much
    How to be in better shape for golf?
    Become a better athlete.
    Don't worry about golf specific.
    Compound lifts w/ linear progress
    Don't forget the mobility work.
    More results, more functional

    Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
    17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
    8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
    Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
    Pga tour driver avg launch conditions: 11* 2700
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,045 ✭✭
    larrybud wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    I'm surprised to see you say things like this, LB. Jim's stuff has always resonated with me. So much so, in fact, that I referred my son to Jim for help in overcoming his driver yips.




    Because it does nobody any favors. By his own admission, players have to pull up a *neuroscience* glossary to understand what Jim is talking about, and they have to blow 1/2 hour of lesson time to understand "meta-awareness". So they're a hundred bucks into golf lessons (or whatever Jim's hourly rate is) and have 0 progress. Honestly, how are new players supposed to relate to this? How are you supposed to get players into golf, and WANT to take lessons and get better with this? So they're an hour into a lesson and all they've done is book learning, and they'll forget 99% of it 5 minutes after they leave, when it's not necessary.



    It's absolutely detrimental to the game of golf.




    Man. Before I say this I want to say. I generally enjoy your posts.





    But to bag on this after I just tried to decipher the algorithm you propose to judge wind is a bit much.



    I can synopsize ( is that a word ?) this pretty quick. You maybe a more analytical , math minded guy who wants everything measured.



    This thread suggests a more centered “ feel based “ approach. That may not mix with you. Doing complex math in my head while trying to hit a shot doesn’t gel with me. I think it’s that simple.

    I don’t know Jim outside a few posts here. But he’s very forcoming with his (free ) help. And a lot of what he says jives with my experiences. Am I odd ? Certainly am ! But I can’t change how I learn. Or at least I haven’t been able to yet.



    Please do not take this as an attack. It’s not. Just an attempt at defusing the disagreement here.
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  • AtraynAtrayn ClubWRX Posts: 2,049 ✭✭
    I'll give a great personal example of why....



    Years ago in my quest to improve I took a group lesson at a local course by a PGA pro. The main reason why is because I never saw my swing on video and they were offering it up in the 6 lesson pack.



    Every week we came in, he gave the lesson and then instruction to everyone go and practice what we learned before the next session. EVERY week I was the ONLY person that practiced what he assigned when we were asked.



    My problem was that he identified the fact that my arms lagged my rotation but I got ZERO help on how to fix it. This is what moved me to an online search for the answer and inevitably to GolWRX and the Slicefixer thread.



    Once here, I devoured every piece of information I could find and educated myself on not only the different swing methods but details such as the new ball flight laws and the "D" plane. From there, it was a matter of experimenting with everything until I found almost all of what I needed. That took two years to accomplish. From there, I knew I was missing something else and I didn't have a clue until I took the dive into Martin Chuck's teachings in 2012. He picked up on one last piece that really helped my short game (UD) and the type of impact dynamics I was trying to see and feel. From there I dedicated myself to the short game and the proper techniques for the types of shots required, because I knew it would be the difference that could get me down to my goal of scratch.



    I got there at the end of '16 because I was confident in my swing and could focus on short game and putting and practiced it religiously several times a week because I lived on a course. Right now, being back in Illinois, I don't have that luxury so the short game isn't as sharp and it shows in my play. I'm hovering realistically around a 4-5 right now because of this reason only.



    The great part is that I know it and I can temper my expectations. I do hit a bad shot a couple times a round, however I just punch out and try to make Par instead of trying to tamper with the swing. 100% of the time I know what happened to cause the bad shot.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,045 ✭✭
    Finally read the article. As expected it was spot on.



    If you aren’t in tune enough to practice as described and understand how path / face relate to ball flight and what each feels like then no instruction will help.



    If you do understand those for your body at even a 20 handicap level you can focus and practice this way with every shot , chip and putt and improve.

    I’ve practiced this way for 4 years since starting this game and retain a 0.5 to 2 handicap playing once to twice a week and practicing daily. I figured this out on my own that if I didn’t take time on each ball it was a waste of time. 20 balls of focused measured practice is better than 200 rake and spray shots. But I also realize as I type this I do not practice putting this way . And putter is my Achilles heal. So that I shall change as well.
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  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,700 ✭✭
    edited Nov 26, 2018 #44
    Obee wrote:

    BMC wrote:


    The real reason golfers don’t get better with practice...





    Because some don't have the motor skills or or god given ability to get better.



    Sure practice and instruction could allow somebody

    who shoots 110 to shoot 100. But some people max out their potential.



    Some people run fast, jump high, or hit a tennis ball coming at them at 140 mph. Some people just have a natural ability to hit a golf ball straight and far. And didn't "practice" that much to be able to do it.




    While this is absolutely true and I repeat it frequently, I think it's also true that many people who play golf never get close to their full potential. More so in golf than in other sports, actually. I don't have any "proof" of this, it's just an observation after playing the game for 30 years after playing other sports growing up and baseball in high school and college at a high level. Golf is a truly unique sport in many ways....




    I agree 100% with Obee but would go further to say that of the sports I've played seriously, football,basketball, baseball and golf,golf requires the least natural ability of the four. A great deal of what makes us good in golf is the acquisition of skills that don't require a lot of athleticism. With work almost everyone can play to a much higher standard than they do.



    Steve
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,615 ClubWRX
    Obee wrote:


    How anyone can read that article, and not get some fantastic takeaways, is beyond me.






    Becasue many people feel the exact same way I do. Which is skeptical.



    I would never say it’s wrong or doesn’t work becasue I’ve never tried it. I’m sure it does work for some people.



    But there are just as many people out there who consider it “psycho-babble” or “mumbo-jumbo”.



    Just different viewpoints.
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  • oikos1oikos1 Posts: 2,241 ✭✭
    "With work almost everyone can play to a much higher standard than they do."



    These "Why don't golfers get better" threads always seem to go like this. Some magic bullet out there. This time it's meta awareness, next time it will be bash modern instruction, but always comes back full circle to the fact that it's 100% on the individual and their abilities and commitment.
  • gioguy21gioguy21 NJMembers Posts: 7,110 ✭✭
    ctmason_98 wrote:


    Why use 200 words when 2,000 will do?



    God Almighty......
    technically it IS a picture...so... ? lol
  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 1,583 ✭✭
    The reason most golfers don't improve is that they spend too much time perfecting the one shot they'll never see on a real golf course -- a clean, level lie on a driving range mat.
  • isaacbmisaacbm Posts: 3,272 ✭✭
    larrybud wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    I'm surprised to see you say things like this, LB. Jim's stuff has always resonated with me. So much so, in fact, that I referred my son to Jim for help in overcoming his driver yips.




    Because it does nobody any favors. By his own admission, players have to pull up a *neuroscience* glossary to understand what Jim is talking about, and they have to blow 1/2 hour of lesson time to understand "meta-awareness". So they're a hundred bucks into golf lessons (or whatever Jim's hourly rate is) and have 0 progress. Honestly, how are new players supposed to relate to this? How are you supposed to get players into golf, and WANT to take lessons and get better with this? So they're an hour into a lesson and all they've done is book learning, and they'll forget 99% of it 5 minutes after they leave, when it's not necessary.



    It's absolutely detrimental to the game of golf.


    I’m fascinated with this response... You’re getting caught up in the term instead of the actual process that the term defines. It’s more important to fully understand HOW TO LEARN then it is to be bombarded by piles of information that your supposed to learn. The point is that people don’t need more swing advice/information , they need to UNDERSTAND how to use and apply all of the information that they already have. The true key to actually getting better is understanding the process of learning itself. That’s what Jim teaches. He teaches how to learn! If you think that’s a waste of time then what do you think is a better alternative? Seriously, Ive liked a ton of your posts over the years. I’m actually curious what you think is a better way? Just more info? We all have more info than we know what to do with. What’s really important is understanding how to actually apply that info.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,665 ClubWRX
    pinhigh27 wrote:
    Obee wrote:

    BMC wrote:


    The real reason golfers don’t get better with practice...





    Because some don't have the motor skills or or god given ability to get better.



    Sure practice and instruction could allow somebody

    who shoots 110 to shoot 100. But some people max out their potential.



    Some people run fast, jump high, or hit a tennis ball coming at them at 140 mph. Some people just have a natural ability to hit a golf ball straight and far. And didn't "practice" that much to be able to do it.




    While this is absolutely true and I repeat it frequently, I think it's also true that many people who play golf never get close to their full potential. More so in golf than in other sports, actually. I don't have any "proof" of this, it's just an observation after playing the game for 30 years after playing other sports growing up and baseball in high school and college at a high level. Golf is a truly unique sport in many ways....




    Do you think the guy playing rec league basketball twice a week ever reaches his basketball potential? To even get close to your potential in any sport or pursuit takes an incredibly huge amount of time.




    I don't know about you, but where I play golf, There are at least 100 guys who play or practice 3 - 6 days a week.



    And, personally, I wasn't talking about anyone's complete potential. More like their potential to get better based upon the time they are willing to put in.
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  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,159 ✭✭


    The reason most golfers don't improve is that they spend too much time perfecting the one shot they'll never see on a real golf course -- a clean, level lie on a driving range mat.




    Nothing wrong with that, making mechanical changes is hard enough, no need to complicate it with variable conditions. The issue for most is knowing what setup changes are required for various lies and swing flaws/compensations that make certain lies extremely difficult.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,665 ClubWRX
    edited Nov 14, 2018 #52
    isaacbm wrote:
    larrybud wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    I'm surprised to see you say things like this, LB. Jim's stuff has always resonated with me. So much so, in fact, that I referred my son to Jim for help in overcoming his driver yips.




    Because it does nobody any favors. By his own admission, players have to pull up a *neuroscience* glossary to understand what Jim is talking about, and they have to blow 1/2 hour of lesson time to understand "meta-awareness". So they're a hundred bucks into golf lessons (or whatever Jim's hourly rate is) and have 0 progress. Honestly, how are new players supposed to relate to this? How are you supposed to get players into golf, and WANT to take lessons and get better with this? So they're an hour into a lesson and all they've done is book learning, and they'll forget 99% of it 5 minutes after they leave, when it's not necessary.



    It's absolutely detrimental to the game of golf.


    I’m fascinated with this response... You’re getting caught up in the term instead of the actual process that the term defines. It’s more important to fully understand HOW TO LEARN then it is to be bombarded by piles of information that your supposed to learn. The point is that people don’t need more swing advice/information , they need to UNDERSTAND how to use and apply all of the information that they already have. The true key to actually getting better is understanding the process of learning itself. That’s what Jim teaches. He teaches how to learn! If you think that’s a waste of time then what do you think is a better alternative? Seriously, Ive liked a ton of your posts over the years. I’m actually curious what you think is a better way? Just more info? We all have more info than we know what to do with. What’s really important is understanding how to actually apply that info.




    Exactly.



    And I see this in the business world, too.



    I have been in sales related jobs my whole life. The biggest difference between people who excel at sales and the people who never improve much and complain about their jobs, Is that the great sales people are always honing their approach.



    And they do that by using a process similar to the one laid out in the article: Constant trial and error that they apply with every client, but always with an eye on the target (which varies from business-to-business and client-to-client).



    I am not arguing with anyone on this. To me, this stuff is not arguable. It is as true as math. You want to become excellent at something (poker, golf, pitching, woodworking, etc.)? Your process for getting there will likely include a process very similar to the one laid out in the article.
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,665 ClubWRX
    Krt22 wrote:


    The reason most golfers don't improve is that they spend too much time perfecting the one shot they'll never see on a real golf course -- a clean, level lie on a driving range mat.




    Nothing wrong with that, making mechanical changes is hard enough, no need to complicate it with variable conditions. The issue for most is knowing what setup changes are required for various lies and swing flaws/compensations that make certain lies extremely difficult.




    There is plenty wrong with that — if that person's goal is to be good at actually playing the game of golf on a real golf course eventually.



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  • mshillsmshills T-I-G-E-R-S! Fight Tigers, fight dammit, FIGHT FIGHT! Members Posts: 3,816 ✭✭
    edited Nov 14, 2018 #54
    The real reason(s) golfers don't get better with practice? Here's my opinion:



    1. Golf is hard. It is not a natural motion. If you give a child a ball and ask him to toss it to you, he is likely to face you and push it to you somehow. He is unlikely to turn 90 degrees from you and toss it to you "sideways."



    2. Related to #1, feel is not real. What golfers think they need to work on to get better is almost never what they should work on to get better, and is often diametrically opposed to getting better.



    3. It takes work to learn how to practice. The vast majority of golfers warm up. They do not practice. There is a real difference between the two.



    4. Swing tips/thoughts, magazine articles, and 10 handicaps with a video camera are tools of the devil for players who want to improve.
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  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,159 ✭✭
    Absolutely still need to play, but unless you belong to a club or play at off hours when courses are empty, making mechanical changes in playing conditions is next to impossible and brings in multiple variables. There were certain lies that were death for me and my swing faults. I would get to my ball during a round, mentally know what I needed to do, but largely never could due to my inherent flaw (under plane hooker). It wasn't until I changed my practice routine and made lasting mechanical changes that I could confidently go out onto the course and adjust accordingly for those former death lies (down hill, below my feet, heavy rough, etc)
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,615 ClubWRX
    edited Nov 14, 2018 #56
    Obee wrote:

    isaacbm wrote:
    larrybud wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    I'm surprised to see you say things like this, LB. Jim's stuff has always resonated with me. So much so, in fact, that I referred my son to Jim for help in overcoming his driver yips.




    Because it does nobody any favors. By his own admission, players have to pull up a *neuroscience* glossary to understand what Jim is talking about, and they have to blow 1/2 hour of lesson time to understand "meta-awareness". So they're a hundred bucks into golf lessons (or whatever Jim's hourly rate is) and have 0 progress. Honestly, how are new players supposed to relate to this? How are you supposed to get players into golf, and WANT to take lessons and get better with this? So they're an hour into a lesson and all they've done is book learning, and they'll forget 99% of it 5 minutes after they leave, when it's not necessary.



    It's absolutely detrimental to the game of golf.


    I’m fascinated with this response... You’re getting caught up in the term instead of the actual process that the term defines. It’s more important to fully understand HOW TO LEARN then it is to be bombarded by piles of information that your supposed to learn. The point is that people don’t need more swing advice/information , they need to UNDERSTAND how to use and apply all of the information that they already have. The true key to actually getting better is understanding the process of learning itself. That’s what Jim teaches. He teaches how to learn! If you think that’s a waste of time then what do you think is a better alternative? Seriously, Ive liked a ton of your posts over the years. I’m actually curious what you think is a better way? Just more info? We all have more info than we know what to do with. What’s really important is understanding how to actually apply that info.




    Exactly.



    And I see this in the business world, too.



    I have been in sales related jobs my whole life. The biggest difference between people who excel at sales and the people who never improve much and complain about their jobs, Is that the great sales people are always honing their approach.



    And they do that by using a process similar to the one laid out in the article: Constant trial and error that they apply with every client, but always with an eye on the target (which varies from business-to-business and client-to-client).



    I am not arguing with anyone on this. To me, this stuff is not arguable. It is as true as math. You want to become excellent at something (poker, golf, pitching, woodworking, etc.)? Your process for getting there will likely include a process very similar to the one laid out in the article.




    You guys are talking about two different concepts here though Obee. When sales people learn better methods they’ve done just that, learned something that will hopefully help them in the actual process of the sale. It doesn’t matter how they learned, even less so that they understand how they learned it. What is important is that they did learn it. That’s just my view of it, which is basically the inherent discussion we’re having, or what it boils down to. How people approach learning, or for this discussion, instruction.



    The mark Iof a good teacher or coach? The ability to figure out how the student or pupil learns. All the mental side of things. I’d wager it wouldn’t work with someone like myself or LarryBud, or several others posting here.



    Larry and I view it similarly, he’s just a little more willing to be very blunt in how he expresses his opinion.



    EDIT: I want to add that I’m by no means disparaging anything about these methods. As I said previously I’m not familiar with them. The possibility certainly exists that I would be converted if I tried. Although with my innate skepticism it is doubtful!😀
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,045 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    isaacbm wrote:
    larrybud wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    I'm surprised to see you say things like this, LB. Jim's stuff has always resonated with me. So much so, in fact, that I referred my son to Jim for help in overcoming his driver yips.




    Because it does nobody any favors. By his own admission, players have to pull up a *neuroscience* glossary to understand what Jim is talking about, and they have to blow 1/2 hour of lesson time to understand "meta-awareness". So they're a hundred bucks into golf lessons (or whatever Jim's hourly rate is) and have 0 progress. Honestly, how are new players supposed to relate to this? How are you supposed to get players into golf, and WANT to take lessons and get better with this? So they're an hour into a lesson and all they've done is book learning, and they'll forget 99% of it 5 minutes after they leave, when it's not necessary.



    It's absolutely detrimental to the game of golf.


    I’m fascinated with this response... You’re getting caught up in the term instead of the actual process that the term defines. It’s more important to fully understand HOW TO LEARN then it is to be bombarded by piles of information that your supposed to learn. The point is that people don’t need more swing advice/information , they need to UNDERSTAND how to use and apply all of the information that they already have. The true key to actually getting better is understanding the process of learning itself. That’s what Jim teaches. He teaches how to learn! If you think that’s a waste of time then what do you think is a better alternative? Seriously, Ive liked a ton of your posts over the years. I’m actually curious what you think is a better way? Just more info? We all have more info than we know what to do with. What’s really important is understanding how to actually apply that info.




    Exactly.



    And I see this in the business world, too.



    I have been in sales related jobs my whole life. The biggest difference between people who excel at sales and the people who never improve much and complain about their jobs, Is that the great sales people are always honing their approach.



    And they do that by using a process similar to the one laid out in the article: Constant trial and error that they apply with every client, but always with an eye on the target (which varies from business-to-business and client-to-client).



    I am not arguing with anyone on this. To me, this stuff is not arguable. It is as true as math. You want to become excellent at something (poker, golf, pitching, woodworking, etc.)? Your process for getting there will likely include a process very similar to the one laid out in the article.




    Bingo again. I’ve employed this type thinking since I opened my shop in 2001. I’m self taught at many things. Including the golf swing ( albeit with some mentoring ) . It’s basically an educated form of trial and error. Do it till you figure out what not to do. But think in a constructive way so you don’t repeat any errors. Or at least don’t repeat them without knowing why they repeated.



    Necessity is the mother of invention. Pretend youre on an island. And the only way to get off is to shoot 75. As a 10 cap that seems impossible. But if you had to to live. And had a years food supply to do it , a big percentage could. They’d figure out how to focus their efforts. And stop repeating the errors that hold them back. That’s exactly the mindset I started my fabrication/engineering shop with. I had to figure out a way to eat. So I designed / built / screwed up / paid for and reworked until I figured out the niche to earn with.



    And I am a very uneducated guy. People don’t have the drive to improve. It isn’t instructors or time or anything. It’s the want to. The caveat being potential skill level. But I still say any level can improve relative to their potential. And if max potential is thought to be reached. Usually there’s more than can be had with a look at where the weak parts are.
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  • jj9000jj9000 ClubWRX Posts: 2,605 ClubWRX
    Obee wrote:


    And, personally, I wasn't talking about anyone's complete potential. More like their potential to get better based upon the time they are willing to put in.




    Set the neuroscience talk aside for a moment.



    The answer to the thread question lies inside the statement above.



    The extent to which someone will get better at this game is directly related to the time they are willing to put into their game.



    Can someone get much, much better without instruction? Sure, but it might take longer than if it were focused practice with an instructor.



    If those folks are willing to dig it out of the dirt, and are committed, they'll get better.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,045 ✭✭
    edited Nov 14, 2018 #59

    Obee wrote:

    isaacbm wrote:
    larrybud wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    I'm surprised to see you say things like this, LB. Jim's stuff has always resonated with me. So much so, in fact, that I referred my son to Jim for help in overcoming his driver yips.




    Because it does nobody any favors. By his own admission, players have to pull up a *neuroscience* glossary to understand what Jim is talking about, and they have to blow 1/2 hour of lesson time to understand "meta-awareness". So they're a hundred bucks into golf lessons (or whatever Jim's hourly rate is) and have 0 progress. Honestly, how are new players supposed to relate to this? How are you supposed to get players into golf, and WANT to take lessons and get better with this? So they're an hour into a lesson and all they've done is book learning, and they'll forget 99% of it 5 minutes after they leave, when it's not necessary.



    It's absolutely detrimental to the game of golf.


    I’m fascinated with this response... You’re getting caught up in the term instead of the actual process that the term defines. It’s more important to fully understand HOW TO LEARN then it is to be bombarded by piles of information that your supposed to learn. The point is that people don’t need more swing advice/information , they need to UNDERSTAND how to use and apply all of the information that they already have. The true key to actually getting better is understanding the process of learning itself. That’s what Jim teaches. He teaches how to learn! If you think that’s a waste of time then what do you think is a better alternative? Seriously, Ive liked a ton of your posts over the years. I’m actually curious what you think is a better way? Just more info? We all have more info than we know what to do with. What’s really important is understanding how to actually apply that info.




    Exactly.



    And I see this in the business world, too.



    I have been in sales related jobs my whole life. The biggest difference between people who excel at sales and the people who never improve much and complain about their jobs, Is that the great sales people are always honing their approach.



    And they do that by using a process similar to the one laid out in the article: Constant trial and error that they apply with every client, but always with an eye on the target (which varies from business-to-business and client-to-client).



    I am not arguing with anyone on this. To me, this stuff is not arguable. It is as true as math. You want to become excellent at something (poker, golf, pitching, woodworking, etc.)? Your process for getting there will likely include a process very similar to the one laid out in the article.




    You guys are talking about two different concepts here though Obee. When sales people learn better methods they’ve done just that, learned something that will hopefully help them in the actual process of the sale. It doesn’t matter how they learned, even less so that they understand how they learned it. What is important is that they did learn it. That’s just my view of it, which is basically the inherent discussion we’re having, or what it boils down to. How people approach learning, or for this discussion, instruction.



    The mark Iof a good teacher or coach? The ability to figure out how the student or pupil learns. All the mental side of things. I’d wager it wouldn’t work with someone like myself or LarryBud, or several others posting here.



    Larry and I view it similarly, he’s just a little more willing to be very blunt in how he expresses his opinion.



    EDIT: I want to add that I’m by no means disparaging anything about these methods. As I said previously I’m not familiar with them. The possibility certainly exists that I would be converted if I tried. Although with my innate skepticism it is doubtful!😀




    I don’t disagree with you really. But I think it’s a circular argument. Because of differing view points it appears to be an argument about two things. But it’s really the same thing when you bring it back around.



    Best methods for teaching. The common thought is a good teacher is best. I feel like that’s not always true. Sometimes it’s best for someone to learn it themselves. And I think this thread is citing tools to do so with. And a lot of that is the mental approach. Im as old school as anyone. But I’ve learned that the “ that’s an excuse “ and “ just play golf “ crowd is wrong. At least for me. A reason that’s true isn’t an excuse. And analyzing those reasons for failure are tools to fix it for next time. And there’s no such thing as “ just play “. Not for a good player. That’s what the guy who can’t improve does.



    Not shot at your head. I just think we are all more like minded than we can see here. Just receive info differently maybe ?
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,615 ClubWRX


    Obee wrote:

    isaacbm wrote:
    larrybud wrote:




    I'm surprised to see you say things like this, LB. Jim's stuff has always resonated with me. So much so, in fact, that I referred my son to Jim for help in overcoming his driver yips.





    Because it does nobody any favors. By his own admission, players have to pull up a *neuroscience* glossary to understand what Jim is talking about, and they have to blow 1/2 hour of lesson time to understand "meta-awareness". So they're a hundred bucks into golf lessons (or whatever Jim's hourly rate is) and have 0 progress. Honestly, how are new players supposed to relate to this? How are you supposed to get players into golf, and WANT to take lessons and get better with this? So they're an hour into a lesson and all they've done is book learning, and they'll forget 99% of it 5 minutes after they leave, when it's not necessary.



    It's absolutely detrimental to the game of golf.


    I’m fascinated with this response... You’re getting caught up in the term instead of the actual process that the term defines. It’s more important to fully understand HOW TO LEARN then it is to be bombarded by piles of information that your supposed to learn. The point is that people don’t need more swing advice/information , they need to UNDERSTAND how to use and apply all of the information that they already have. The true key to actually getting better is understanding the process of learning itself. That’s what Jim teaches. He teaches how to learn! If you think that’s a waste of time then what do you think is a better alternative? Seriously, Ive liked a ton of your posts over the years. I’m actually curious what you think is a better way? Just more info? We all have more info than we know what to do with. What’s really important is understanding how to actually apply that info.




    Exactly.



    And I see this in the business world, too.



    I have been in sales related jobs my whole life. The biggest difference between people who excel at sales and the people who never improve much and complain about their jobs, Is that the great sales people are always honing their approach.



    And they do that by using a process similar to the one laid out in the article: Constant trial and error that they apply with every client, but always with an eye on the target (which varies from business-to-business and client-to-client).



    I am not arguing with anyone on this. To me, this stuff is not arguable. It is as true as math. You want to become excellent at something (poker, golf, pitching, woodworking, etc.)? Your process for getting there will likely include a process very similar to the one laid out in the article.




    You guys are talking about two different concepts here though Obee. When sales people learn better methods they’ve done just that, learned something that will hopefully help them in the actual process of the sale. It doesn’t matter how they learned, even less so that they understand how they learned it. What is important is that they did learn it. That’s just my view of it, which is basically the inherent discussion we’re having, or what it boils down to. How people approach learning, or for this discussion, instruction.



    The mark Iof a good teacher or coach? The ability to figure out how the student or pupil learns. All the mental side of things. I’d wager it wouldn’t work with someone like myself or LarryBud, or several others posting here.



    Larry and I view it similarly, he’s just a little more willing to be very blunt in how he expresses his opinion.



    EDIT: I want to add that I’m by no means disparaging anything about these methods. As I said previously I’m not familiar with them. The possibility certainly exists that I would be converted if I tried. Although with my innate skepticism it is doubtful!😀




    I don’t disagree with you really. But I think it’s a circular argument. Because if differing view points it’s appears to be an argument about two things. But it’s really the same thing when you bring it back around.



    Best methods for teaching. The common thought is a good teacher is best. I feel like that’s not always true. Sometimes it’s best for someone to learn it themselves. And I think this thread is citing tools to do so with. And a lot of that is the mental approach. In as old school as anyone. But I’ve learned that the “ that’s an excuse “ and “ just play golf “ crowd is wrong. At least for me. A reason that’s true isn’t an excuse. And analyzing those reasons for failure are tools to fix it for next time. And there’s no such thing as “ just play “. Not for a good player. That’s what the guy who can’t improve does.



    Not shot at your head. I just think we are all more like minded than we can see here. Just receive info differently maybe ?




    I agree 100% Blade. It is basically a circular argument. But I believe you summed it up perfectly with your last statement, “Just receive info differently maybe”.



    That, to me, is,the crux of the discussion. If two people receive info differently, then they cannot be taught or instructed the same way. Hence my statement that the most important criteria for a instructor is to determine how the student is going to receive that information in the way they will be best able to get the most out of it. I’ve heard a lot of this stuff over the years from my early childhood education specializing wife. She’s a whole lot smarter than I am (not that most people aren’t) so sometimes I even listen!��. I’m really seen that evidenced in my coaching experiences over the years too though.



    My main beef is when someone says this is THE way.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,045 ✭✭
    100% ^^. I’d never say “ the way “. I’ve spent my whole life translating info from others to my own way of thinking. Way back even when learning long division. I could do it as multiplication then calculate the remainder in my head. But of course that wasn’t the taught method. So I struggled to “ show my work “.



    And my wife has a early childhood development/ English lit degree. So you can imagine her horror anytime she reads my ramblings. Lmao !



    I parce up info and methods to create my own in most things. This game included.
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